Spiral Knights - Triglav/sudaruska fix.

Triglav/sudaruska fix.

27 replies [Last post]

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 18:10

Enigmaticlog

Legacy Username

Hey, it should be pretty obvious to anyone that owns both one of the new troika 5 star swords, and one of the mainstream weapons used in the endgame (Divine Avenger, Leviathan blade, brandish series ect.) that the long awaited Sudaruska and Triglav are lacking. This is my suggestion about how to fix these swords, and please notify me if this is in the wrong section of the forums. I myself own a Triglav, I was really excited about it because I've always loved the troika line, how they look, the general feel of them being huge sticks you smash stuff with, and seeing the entire attack power bar filled up, so when I got my Triglav and found out it was basically inferior to other swords, I was a bit upset. This is me doing my part to try and get OOO to fix these beautiful swords.

* NOW FOR THE ACTUAL SUGGESTION *

-Increase the damage done by normal swings by about 5%
The first thing I noticed about these swords, is that they barely do more than DA and GF versus neutral creatures, and I personally feel that they should do a fair amount more taking their slower speed into account. It's also come to my attention that the second swing actually does less than the sealed sword series. While this could be to discourage players from using the second swing, I think it is pretty silly and that the second swing should get a decent damage buff.

-Add just a tiny bit more reach onto the swords normal attacks, and reduce the time it takes to shield after swinging very slightly
I love the idea that these swords are like mountains that you use as weapons, slow and immensely powerful, so I think that rather than increasing their slow attack speed, a good option would be to increase their range by just a tiny bit. In addition, after even the FIRST swing, it takes somewhere around half a second to put your shield up, whatever the exact time is, it's much slow than the time it takes to shield after a DA hit. Because of this, if anything is behind you while you try to attack, or if anything gets behind you/isn't hit by the swing somehow during your attack, you will get hit after attacking only once. While this can be avoided trough skill some of the time, there is only so much you can do. I suggest lowering the shield delay after swinging, at least after the first hit.

-Fix the charge attack!
On both swords, the charge attacks are almost useless.... They don't do a ton of damage, they leave you extremely vulnerable, and they are slow. My proposed solution is that you keep the charge attacks very similar to how they are now, but make you invulnerable while using them, increase the damage on the main swing by about 15-20% (This would make the main swing do about 1.5x the damage from ONE of the possible three hits from the levi blade, which are much quicker and more spam able) , and add back the rocks like on the old khorovod charge attack (Or Glaciers/shards of ice for the triglav) . The rocks should knock back and do a decent amount of damage to enemies that are adjacent to you, and the swing should inflict the swords associated status ailment. This way the special attack would actually be useful, since you are doing a decent amount of damage and inflicting status ailments, but not making yourself extremely vulnerable. Seeing as special attacks like the leviathan blades and Divine avengers can do much larger DPS, I don't think it would be overpowered.

Anyways, those are my ideas for fixing the new swords! Thank you for taking the time to read, and if anyone from OOO reads this, please realize that these swords need a serious buff to be usable :(

P.S. I think the new PVP is awesome, and that it's great you did a mini game style rather than just players fighting each other, since I don't think that would work very well with the SK combat system.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 18:20

Rangerwillx

It's a shame that OOO never ever does things that the players want. Because this is an excellent suggestion. +1

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 19:21

Glocron

Legacy Username

I agree that these swords need a buff. They just look too darn cool to be bad.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 20:02

Tenkii

never ever does the things the players want?

Eh I don't know about that -

- We got a party-game style pvp event, in accordance to player suggestions in the thread when they asked;
- Guns were slightly buffed in the IMF patch following a few hints from the official suggestion thread - we got guns with stronger damage (catalyzer/pulsar).
- We got a 5* troika whose is stronger (ever so slightly) than DA/GF on their neutral hits.
- Blitz needle (gun) was buffed to have even more damage with its charge attack, which still goes with the "guns need more damage" complaint line.

-----------

The normal attacks DO have greater range than the sealed sword and earlier troika line weapons. It's noticeably larger, for both Khorovod and Triglav (I have both).
Here's a funny thing I noticed, regarding the normal attacks:
Despite the first slash's damage being greater, the Troika line's second swing is weaker than the Sealed Sword line's second swing.

It's like they want to discourage you from using it, which isn't a bad idea since it's so freakin slow and vulnerable.

As for the charge attack buff - I'm against invincibility and back rocks. The changes I'd make would probably be along the lines of this:

Sudaruska's rocks should be real (and appear towards the front of the sword). Front rocks make more sense, and it makes it usable vs bosses.
Triglav's charge slash should do more damage (but not as much as Sudaruska's rock-combined damage, to balance the chance of freeze).

If not a damage buff, I'd lessen the charge/animation time for that sword line. If not that, I'd increase the range of effect around the charge attack. How about extending its area in front of you :[

Divine Avenger's lvl 10 charge is just about as fast (in terms of charging) as my CTR medium Sudaruska, except:
- You can shield almost immediately after releasing the charge,
- It's a ranged attack - and its total knockback AND damage (with combo) is more than the Sudaruska!
- It does ton of damage and has a wide range - its INEFFECTIVE damage is way better than the Sudaruska's, and has the chance of affecting more monsters, whereas the Sudaruska can hit like, 3-4 monsters (maybe more, if you're in a jelly run >__>)
- It can hit through walls.

Gran Faust's level 10 charge is twice as long, except:
- You can shield almost immediately after releasing the charge,
- It's a ranged attack - and its total knockback AND damage (with combo) is more than the Sudaruska.
- Same as DA, except less width but stronger.
- Chance of curse.

I can't justify why Sudaruska/Triglav charge attacks should be so much weaker than the sealed sword counterparts. They're slower, have less range, less total knockback, less damage...

wat.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 20:01

Arctic-Fern

But my faith in OOO is rather high as soon as I set aside my hopes that they will be able to fix lag.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 21:36

Enigmaticlog

Legacy Username

Thanks

Thanks for the comments guys. In response to tenlki, I know that they already have greater range than the sealed sword series, but a bit more would do the new swords well. As it is the bit of extra range is no where near good enough to make up for the fact that there is something like a .4 second delay to shielding after even the first swing. As for the other stuff, that's really just personal preference. These are just some suggestions on how to fix the swords.

** Edit **
Apparently the extra range is just an illusion :/ Even more reason to fix them.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 21:03

Tenkii

IT'S A LIE (Troika line range rage!)

Kind of depressing, but after some testing, DA and the Triglav AND Sudaruska all have the same exact range.

The range increase is only an illusion given off by the fact that the model is bigger. The DA/GF have always had the range that extended past their graphic (about 1.6-8 blocks? something like that)

Yeah, Troika line is completely underpowered and comparatively useless -_-.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 21:35

Enigmaticlog

Legacy Username

Dang

Depressing indeed, eh? Hence my suggestions.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 21:53

OverDingle

Legacy Username

Sudaruska can and should have

Sudaruska can and should have rocks, but unfortunately having them could hurt the Triglav - the main swing could freeze the victim, and then the rocks would immediately unfreeze it. While I feel they consciously chose to not include rocks on Triglav for this reason, and probably removed Khorovod's (and hence, Sudaruska's) to match, this has left the two sword's charge attacks feeling comparatively weak to just about everything except the spur line.

I'd suggest a buff to both the area of effect and damage of both sword's charge attacks - say, to about 150-180% of their current damage and an attack area that actually matches the graphics that appear in the impact zone.

I have a feeling when they release the 5* form of winmillion they're not going to improve the charge attack for that, either, and that one's even worse; lower damage, harder to aim.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 07:39

Sirusswan

I support buffing the 5* troika swords. It would change the sudaruska from a good sword in my hands to a down right amazing one. :D

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 08:34

#10

Negatory

Legacy Username

I enjoyed having a 4* sword with such intense damage. Now, I have a 5* sword that does minimally more swing damage and still only gets a status effect when deploying a charged attack that makes me extremely vulnerable.

My play style with the Sudaruska is as a bomber with single swing only support due to current mechanics. The time it takes for the second swing is so long and leaves me so exposed that I can very rarely justify even trying to land it on mobs.

Not having spent a tremendous amount of time pondering over possibilities, I do like many of the suggestions for improvement already posted.

Ideas for improvement:
- Damage tweaks.
- Increase the reach of all swing.
- Provide additional knockback on the initial swing or second swing.
- Inflict status effect possibility for all swings with the 5* version.
- Larger area of effect for the charge slam (I'm thinking almost like the radius on a respective star level bomb), if I take such a great risk then I should reap a significant reward, same goes for normal swing damage.
- Ground spike style charge attack, upon release the sword slams into the ground producing spikes along the line of attack.
- Different swing style: the first swing makes sense, the spinning second is a decent combo string, and then how about a barrel-roll type (does damage behind and in front) or using the handle as a quick attack? Not to say that I would support such a slow sword going to 3 swing as ramping up that combo would take an enormous amount of time.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 09:56

#11

culture

Legacy Username

Sigh

I've been waiting since April for a 5* Troika, and I'm now a sad panda :(

I thought the new swords would be the Levi of two hit swords - a well balanced sword that is a decent alternative to the themed swords while still having some strong point. (In the case of the Levi, its charge attack makes up for less damage to weak monsters.) I can carry a Levi instead of Glacius + Acheron and feel good about it. Sudaruska strangely just doesn't feel like a reasonable alternative to carrying DA + GF.

As much as it pains me to say, I'm going back to just carrying a Levi.

Is it just me or is the charge attack area incredibly small? I'll hit in the middle of a bunch of mobs, then only the 2-3 near dead center actually get smashed. The others, unscathed, trot over for a counter attack.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 12:33

#12

Thrull

Legacy Username

Sad. I thought they would do

Sad. I thought they would do more with the 5* upgrade, rather than reskinning the swords and slightly boosting damage. Not sure if I'm still going to upgrade mine. Just bought the Sudaruska recipe, too...

More suggestions:

Give Sudaruska a chance to stun on the 2nd swing.

Give Triglav a blizzard/ice cloud in the charge attack impact zone, similar to freezing vaporizer.

Give BOTH swords an effect as the charge attack's initial swing winds back: a circular push back for monsters near the player. Not invincibility, but might help a little bit with counter-attacks.

Give BOTH swords an expanded charge attack impact zone for normal damage.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 13:17

#13

Enigmaticlog

Legacy Username

Just a note.

Just a note guys, if you will notice my proposed charge attack the rocks would work a tiny little bit different, I'll try to make that more clear here. The main swing would hit stuff it front of you like it does now, while the rocks would just around you hitting everything adjacent to you and knocking it back a bit. As for the rocks (or ice glaciers) unfreezing targets, this could be easily avoided by having them hit a few milliseconds before the actual swing does. The idea with this new charge attack would be that it has good reach, doesn't leave you impractically vulnerable like the current charge does, and has damage comparable but still lower than the divine avenger/leviathan blade (with 2-3x hits), and the added bonus of a status effect. That seems to me like it would be pretty balanced and useful, with the bonus of keeping the swords powerful, mountain like feel.

Mon, 08/08/2011 - 17:12

#14

culture

Legacy Username

Hmm

I rather like Thrull's idea of the charge attack leaving a freeze/stun vapor behind.

Tue, 08/09/2011 - 08:59

#15

Thrull

Legacy Username

Hmm, actually that would work

Hmm, actually that would work for Sudaruska too. Triglav gets an "ice vapor" impact charge attack, Sudaruska gets a "shockwave/earthquake" impact charge attack. One causes freeze, other causes stun, in a decent radius around the impact zone.

That would give them much more utility as weapons while still leaving some disadvantage with the super slow charge attack swing.

Tue, 08/09/2011 - 17:17

#16

Enigmaticlog

Legacy Username

I'm not sure

Although it is a cool idea, I would like the special attacks to stay unique, rather than just be a swing+ bomb effect. Maybe for the triglav, but instead of a haze bomb effect on the sudaruska I would much rather see the old rocks, except maybe surrounding you instead of just behind you. giving both weapons the exact same charge attack with different status effects seems lame to me, diversify them a little.

Tue, 08/09/2011 - 22:15

#17

Thrull

Legacy Username

They don't have to copy the

They don't have to copy the bomb effects. But either way, we all agree these swords need some more love.

Anyone posted this in Suggestions yet?

Tue, 08/09/2011 - 23:41

#18

Asonara

Legacy Username

I did, talk about them there

I did, talk about them there guys :V

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 10:02

#19

Enigmaticlog

Legacy Username

I asked.

I asked if this was the right forums section >_>

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 10:06

#20

Tenkii

Regardless, this is a nice

Regardless, this is a nice place to get people to actually discuss the weapon itself.

I posted this image estimating the Sudaruska charge attack in Asonara's Suggestion thread:
http://i.imgur.com/OwTvK.jpg

When you can actually see it like that, it makes you wonder why it's not much stronger than it currently is. It's so... short range AND weak. The only thing it has going for it is knockback, but even then you can barely use it, since the charge time is enough to let enemies get to you -_-;

Thu, 08/11/2011 - 12:48

#21

Sirusswan

Like I said before Three

Like I said before Three rings, please add a bit more damage to every attack and BRING BACK THOSE CHARGE ATTACK ROCKS THAT THE KHOROVOD ORIGINALLY HAD.

If the rocks that currently appear in the Sudaruska's charge attack were to actually do like 360-400 damage each, then the attack would be more comparable to the charge attacks of other swords (which can multi-hit).

Thu, 08/11/2011 - 23:21

#22

Afoxi

Legacy Username

Reduce knockback on first

Reduce knockback on first swing ever so slightly. (or extend the sword's effective range)
Increase damage on second swing. (willing to give up chance of status effect)

Increase AoE size of charge attack.

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 00:35

#23

Tenkii

@Afoxi

eh...
So basically you're trying to encourage the use of second swing?

Troika line's second swing is so incredibly unsafe - I could care less about its damage partly because it's not usually worth using with anything lower than ASI high.

The charge attack definitely needs more range (it almost seems to beg for more of a forward range than its 3x3 square), but over all, it really, really needs more damage and/or less charge time.

In the time it takes me to charge the move, enemies will already have gotten up to me.
In the time it takes me to charge AND release the move, I could have done at least 2-3 times more damage just spamming slash 1.

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 12:22

#24

Thrull

Legacy Username

Don't forget to lend your

Don't forget to lend your support with a bump to the Suggestions thread: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/20209

In the time between releasing the charge attack and the impact, you can easily run up to where it would have hit and deliver more damage with two quick swings than the charge attack can do, with less risk of harm. And you benefit from an expanded hit zone. The charge attack's hit zone is shorter than the regular swing reach.

The only thing the charge attack really does is create huge amounts of knockback, if you connect. The purpose of knocking a monster back is to avoid being hit. The charge attack leaves you completely vulnerable if you miss with its tiny hitbox or are hit while winding back the swing... it's just not a usable attack.

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 13:40

#25

Nitez

Is it me or...

Is it me or should the Triglav seem like it should be elemental damage instead of normal? I mean it doesn't seem like it should do normal damage. that's kinda messed. Also on charge attack how about adding a medium-large sized glacier spiking up from the ground?
I do agree on everybody's suggestions on the range increase and damage(even though I don't own a either one, but am currently aiming for a Triglav) because it seems awesome.)(currently have Grintovec and it seems to do less damage than a sealed which is kinda sad)

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 16:59

#26

Kurapika

This sword NEEDS buffing!

+1 to Thrull's idea of bomb effect. I currently have a jalovec I'm levelling up, and I agree it needs to be buffed ALOT more to be able to compete with my DA.

Sat, 08/13/2011 - 00:38

#27

Asonara

Legacy Username

Post in the Suggestions

Post in the Suggestions section to get us noticed guys :'D

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Triglav/sudaruska fix.