That kind of proves UnicornKitty's point, though, which was about armor. You can't say gunner's have the same buffs as the bombers and swordies because of the trinkets, because a bomber or swordie at the same level of armor and trinkets as a gunner will always have a better buff.

Someone with vog cub + sword damage trinket has Asi VH and damage med. Skolver + sword speed trinket has damage VH and speed med.
The same would go for a bomber.

Gunners, on the other hand would still be worse off because they could only have, say damage med + asi med, or whatever the combination equals out to. Any way you parse it, a maxed out swordsman or bomber has better buffs than a maxed out gunner.

Nameless set + two Elite Trueshot modules

This is my setup. Very high ASI on guns. Very high Damage on guns.

I do agree gunslingers armour isn't that great though. Shadowsun is low and they all don't have any status resist.

Guns deal damage from a distance, hence they are weaker than swords of course. And by that nature, they are less risky to danger and damage. Guess the trend follows and less will be given to gunslingers.

Gunners don't have to get close to the enemy at all to deal damage, which means they're a low-risk class.
However, swordsmen have to be close to the enemy to deal damage, so they become a high-risk class.

Gunners are low-risk, low-damage, while swordsmen are high-risk, high-damage. They have to be similar in order for the class to be balanced.
It wouldn't make sense to make a heavy sword-based set if you could do the same damage without being near the enemy (i.e. low-risk, high-damage gunslinger)

I'm not so sure of where the bomber's standpoint is, but I'm assuming that they have to be somewhat near the enemy while planting their bombs.

On mender's "increased normal resistance": They actually had decreased normal resistance, with normal damage attacks dealing slightly more than piercing to them; they'd take more damage from a normal weapon than any other enemy. Likely the patch fixes that.

Edit to the above: More to the point, the point of normal damage is to NOT be reduced specifically - in cases where normal damage is reduced, all other damage has been reduced by a similar amount. Those cases pretty much add up to Vanaduke though.

On gunslingers having worse damage bonuses available from armor: Yes, their damage bonuses are worse, no, this is not necessary to balance them - damage bonuses are a % increase to the weapon's base damage; guns are already balanced by lower numbers. All not having medium damage bonuses does for gunners is make it harder for them to reach their maximum damage than swordsmen, and each level of damage boost UV already means less for gunners.

Gunners getting less defense on armor is fine, as they don't need it as much - but having less resistances total kinda sucks.

Sidenote: Bombers are the only ones that get a charge time reduction on armor - I don't particularly see a reason not to have CTR armor for guns and swords.

That doesn't mean we can't have CTR armor for guns and swords - it's unused design space.

ASI is almost useless for a gunner imho.

The point of this topic, as everyone keeps forgetting, isn't to say that guns are inferior because they don't deal damage. We get that there are other bonuses to guns that make up for this. It's just that the armor setup is designed to deter one from becoming a pure gunner. As a class, guns, swords and bombs are all balanced (IMO, anyways). But the armor that's supposed to provide an incentive and bonus to specialize isn't.

If you go pure sword and get full vog or full skolver (really, just two wolver bits) you're instantly waaaay better at dealing damage than a swordie wearing, say, cobalt.

And if you go all bombs and wear full demo equipment you're immediately better at laying explosives than any shmuck blundering around in chroma gear.

But gunslinger armor doesn't provide that instantaneous boost to gunning. A gunner in all gunner gear is better than a gunner in all cobalt, I'll admit, but only marginally so. A bomber in all bomber or a swordie in all swordie is better by a LOT. The point isn't that guns should or shouldn't deal X amount of damage; the game is designed so the weapons all have pros and cons. The point is that specializing in guns and wearing gunslinger armor should make being a gunner much more satisfying and useful, the way the mad bomber and vog do for their respective classes.

I'd say that ASI should affect reload to begin with. That would be something that really helps with the heavy guns, where you spend a lot of time reloading.

Personally, I have the full nameless set and a set of three 5* heavy guns (hail driver, umbra driver and Callahan) and I feel that the game really penalizes my gear a bit, like the OP said. Solution is to either change ASI usefullness to the gunner, or to have (slight) nerft to sword gear. I prefer boosting gunners, since nerfing is always a bit nasty.

The benefit of having gunners in your team is not big enough at the moment. The jelly king even is a completely "anti-gunner" boss.
I'd like to see it viable to play a full gunner over just seeing teams with plain swords all over.

I really doubt that anyone would claim pure gunners to be particularly strong at this game at the moment.

This requires you to have two trinket slots. Not everyone has that.

Since ASI is not that good on heavy guns, the nameless set is less useful than a set with medimum damage bonus would be - however there is only an alt armor set that has low damage. Why is that?

You should not compare a gunner with a swordman at full trinkets only. Compare with only basic armors and weapons, and it really is inferior.

Sure, I am happy that there are those trinkets, but they do cost CE to make and to maintain the slots - not something that everyone will do. Especially people who don't play much beyond a run per day will have difficulties coming up with all that CE to keep up the slots.

Recently updates:
*Gunslinger set now has "Reload speed" instead "ASI"
*Nameless now has Fire resist and Justifer Freeze resit
*Shadow sun now has V.high bonus damage and Reload speed but reduce all resist like mad bomber set.

Living the dream...................................

=(

Wow, really?

"Gunslingers can't block as well as swordsmen because we're constantly emptying our magazines and can't shield while reloading." Did you know that swordsmen can't swing away wildly either as they can't block on their combo-ending hits?! Maybe a Maximum! ASI Leviathan can swing away like a madman, but heavy sword users (hint: a large majority of swordsmen) cannot and are usually backpedaling and taking a single swing, then waddling away to safety with their shield up. First of all, why do gunslingers even NEED to spam block? For swordsmen, it's the only way to even stay alive and deal damage at all. Shielding is our lifeblood. It's just an extra perk for gunslingers. If a swordsman gets trapped in a corner by 10 mecha knights, he is just as screwed as a gunslinger. The only option there is to spam shield bump as hard as he can, just like a gunslinger. If you want to try to do a full swing to get out, you're going to take damage and probably get shocked to death, but I'll admit it's one perk that gunslingers don't have. It comes by virtue of ACTUALLY WIELDING A SWORD. Gunslingers can actually do it, too! And guess what, crying about having to carry one sword out of your four weapons is pointless; have you ever played a switch-heavy map or level without a gun having to rely only on jugs? Swordsmen can't spam their attacks, why should gunslingers be able to? If you want to knockback like a heavy swordsman/Leviathan user and want to spam swings like a light swordsman/Leviathan user, then use the Valiance. A gun that many gunslingers overlook or shun as "mediocre" when it gives you all you whiners are asking for.

"I don't want to require two Medium DMG trinkets to get Maximum! DMG." TOUGH LUCK! Heavy swordsmen cannot max both ASI and DMG without at least one trinket because swords cannot get DMG UV's and if you wear Skolver/Skolver/Barbarous Thorn Shield your swing speed will be ATROCIOUS. Seriously, just because you're not used to ASI being useful as a gunslinger doesn't mean you should be ignorant as to how greatly it affects swordsmen. Even the difference between Ultra ASI and Maximum! ASI is a huge, noticeable difference. I would not use heavy swords without Maximum! ASI anymore; it's just not worth the effort unless you have perfect latency. Because of this, heavy swordsmen are usually using both trinkets and a Barbarous Thorn Shield to get their +6 DMG boost because they wear double Vog to get +4 ASI. If your weapon has Very High ASI, then and only then can you wear Vog Cub/Skolver to max your ASI and only require one trinket slot to get max DMG, and ONLY IF you wear Barbarous Thorn Shield; that means no Owlite, no Volcanic Plate, no Crest of Almire. Swiftstrike Buckler does similar for ASI and IS USABLE BY GUNSLINGERS TOO! If anything, be grateful that you can do without 6 entire points in ASI since it doesn't do anything, or so you say. Then you can max out CTR and DMG without a problem assuming you can get two other sources of Medium CTR. A swordsmen can get +6 to two bonuses out of ASI, CTR, and DMG, and +4 in the third. If gunslingers can obtain the same, then NO, THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH GUNSLINGER GEAR. The entire point of all this whine was that gunslinger gear bonuses weren't on the same level as swordsmen. Except for Barbarous Thorn Shield, YOU'RE WRONG.

I am sick and tired of games where the ranged classes are superior to the melee. I think gunslingers may be slightly underpowered as they are right now, but killing time does not matter as much IMO because you can STILL GET THINGS DONE as a gunslinger going solo and still contribute with an acceptably high DPS and kill-time in a group of 2-4. Gunslingers are capable of getting the EXACT SAME bonuses as swordsmen, and for the average player without perfect UV's, EVERYONE REQUIRES 1-2 trinket slots, especially if they're aiming to get +6 in two categories while maintaining +4 in the third (UV, DMG, CTR). If anything, ask for a change to the way percentage effects affect guns (like making ASI more appealing as it is to heavy swords -- HEY LOOK! You don't see light swordsmen complaining about not getting as much of an advantage as heavy swordsmen from ASI!) or ask for an increase in handgun damage percentiles based on damage type and resistances.

TL;DR: Guns are fine. Gunslinger gear is fine. Stop being whiny children; YOUR GEAR IS CAPABLE OF ACCOMPLISHING THE EXACT SAME THING AS GEAR FOR SWORDSMEN. It's the way the gear bonuses interact with your base weapon that is at fault. And especially, stop making stupid complaints like "gunslingers can't block as much as swordsmen because we have to reload." Seriously.

Problem?

You may not like my confrontational tone, but at least I addressed every salient point, no matter how asinine and incorrect they were, whereas you throw out thinly-veiled insults cutely disguised as puns and refuse to acknowledge my rebuttals. I can only assume that's because you're completely WRONG and your complaints are unjustified. What other reason can there be if you refuse to explain to me why I'm wrong? I'll even examine every single unwarranted complaint from gunslingers in this entire thread despite the lack of a properly integrated quoting function.

The ONLY leg you can stand on right now is, "The Shadowsun set does not give equivalent damage bonuses such as the Skolver and Volcanic Demo set."

BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, ASI is useless or at least not worth stacking over the other two stats, so gunslingers only need to reach a total of 12 boosts: 6 to DMG and 6 to CTR. This is possible with the current equipment and a CTR Very High handgun. Similarly, demomen do not need ASI at all, and can also obtain Maximum! DMG and Maximum! CTR. Swordsmen require all three BUT CAN NEVER REACH THE MAXIMUM OF EACH STAT.

Heck, why don't we complain that the sword and gun sets aren't as good as the demo set?

I wouldn't dare to answer on behalf of the devs, but here are some possibilities as to why gunslinger armor doesn't yield as many hard boosts as other weapon type sets.

- You don't need 16-18 total boosts unlike swords.
- You can attack from range.
- You deal pure damage rather than split damage.
- Your base attack speeds can be worlds faster than bomb charge times and many swords.
- You have the defense of swords with safer application via knockback, status, shield cancelling, and shield bumping, as well as the AoE and status ability of demomen.

Here are some of the "discrepancies" that you gunslingers are throwing out as complaints:

"there has been a very good reason for it, but frankly I don't see one, and it upsets me and frustrates me a little bit."
"It's okay to give guns as a CLASS less damage because they have other advantages yes,"

Exactly.

"...but that's a class-wise debuff. I don't understand why the optional, offensive ARMOR boost has to be worse than all the other class sets, and it's really not fair"

What. And how is it not fair? I wish swords could attack freely from range. It's not fair. I wish I could max CTR and DMG as easily as demomen. It's not fair.

"You can't say gunner's have the same buffs as the bombers and swordies because of the trinkets, because a bomber or swordie at the same level of armor and trinkets as a gunner will always have a better buff."

ASI doesn't matter for gunslingers and demomen. Therefore, at equal gear level, demomen and gunslingers have SUPERIOR buffs. They max out 12/12 out of CTR/DMG. They are 100% capped out. Swordsmen will NEVER be able to rise above 16/18 CTR/DMG/ASI without sacrificing the ability to block T3 attacks (Swiftstrike Buckler). Remember our little discussion about blocking and how "Wahhh gunslingers can't block when I'm spamming my risk-free full-auto DPS!"?

"Gunners, on the other hand would still be worse off because they could only have, say damage med + asi med, or whatever the combination equals out to. Any way you parse it, a maxed out swordsman or bomber has better buffs than a maxed out gunner."

So I guess a gunner with absolutely perfect gear all around is terrible and broken and needs a buff? Yeah right. In fact, I retract my statement that gunslingers are underpowered. I only said it for politeness's sack anyways. With four weapon slots gunslingers are absolute powerhouses. Can you imagine if you had a gun equivalent to the power of Argent Peacemaker in FSC for every mob type/strata?

"Nameless set + two Elite Trueshot modules

This is my setup. Very high ASI on guns. Very high Damage on guns.

I do agree gunslingers armour isn't that great though. Shadowsun is low and they all don't have any status resist.

Guns deal damage from a distance, hence they are weaker than swords of course. And by that nature, they are less risky to danger and damage. Guess the trend follows and less will be given to gunslingers."

This guy gets it, why don't you? He STILL obtains the same damage as me (+6 ASI +6 DMG). However, he sacrifices CTR, BUT SO DO I because I don't have perfect gear. We have equivalent stats with our respective setups. The difference? He deals damage from range, while I can't. He gets to use Grey Owlite Shield while I can't. He gets to avoid more than 75% of dangerous status effects while DPSing BY DEFAULT, so why would you even need status resist on armor ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE WEARING GREY OWLITE SHIELD?

"Probably Killerjas is right in saying that Gunslingers should not get hit at all considering their range, so they are given less defense to compensate and make enemy hits more punishing... along with lower damage overall, because the safety of range makes it possible to attack more often, right? Right?

Ok, I really want fire resist on my Nameless at least."

The first paragraph sums it up exactly. So why the heck do you feel you are entitled to more?

Here's another golden one, from you, no less:

"I don't care about trinkets or being a weaker weapon class or a gun with quirks or ranged damage or armor defense or anything else."

Well, you should.

"I just want gunslingers to have very high damage armor, just like everyone else."

Be careful what you wish for. I would rather suffer the "humiliation" of wearing an "inferior" set if the complete package yields a much more efficient or at least competitively viable setup. Gunslingers are fine. You don't NEED medium damage armor in the larger perspective, mainly because ASI's stat weight is so low for guns. If anything, the Demo sets need to be toned down, but bombs have their own limitations and that's another discussion. The sets may not even be meant for such all-exclusive purposes. Maybe we weren't meant to be pure swordsmen or pure gunners or pure demomen and we should be penalized if we choose to do so. No multi-class game will ever achieve perfect balance. If anything, the Mad Bomber set is the best example of this because their whopping +4 bonuses per piece allow for great mix and matching. The downside? No resistances. SOMETHING SOME OF YOU GUNSLINGERS ARE ASKING FOR MORE OF DESPITE THE NEED TO GO INTO BOMBING OR MELEE RANGE. Gunslingers don't need medium damage boosts on their armor just to satisfy your ego and skewed perspective of class balance. I don't want another game dominated by ranged classes. There are hundreds out there if that's your thing and gunners are fine where they're at.

"Swordsmen are a medium-risk class because they have the advantage of pushing enemies with nearly every swing, plus reliable shield-pushing and weapons which have 100% move speed while charging, allowing them to kite effectively."

Divine Avenger does not allow 100% move speed while charging. You don't need to charge with either swords or handguns. You can also more easily accommodate Maximum! CTR on a gunslinger set than a sword set. For knockback, refer to this post: "People have complained about the lack of knockback before, and they gave us Polaris/Supernova and Biohazard/Neutralizer which can pin enemies down just as good as any sword."

"Gunslingers are lower-risk but only slightly. They can't clear themselves space like a Swordsman can without a backup weapon. Their shielding isn't as reliable as they are attacking constantly and risk the bane of reloading, and this makes them vulnerable to stray projectiles and flying enemies (from Levi/DA swordsmen and bombers)."

Lolwhat. You can't dominate the melee range without a melee weapon. Swordsmen can't dominate long range without a ranged weapon. Sounds about right to me. Your shielding isn't reliable because you don't even bother to time your attacks while swordsmen have to? Sounds like a personal problem. You have no protection from stray flying mobs hitting you mid-attack? Neither do swordsmen nor demo men.

"If Normal damage had reduced effectiveness against some monsters, especially in T3, then maybe Gunslingers would have a niche to fill. At the moment, unless some kind of Normal-resistant monster comes out they'll just keep kiting and watching the Swordsmen..."

That's funny, 'cause dealing pure non-normal damage is actually BETTER than dealing split. And you act like swordsmen never have ceasefire moments. Protip: they do.

"@Bexar Please try to act mature in the forums, instead of deferring to ad hominem attacks because you had a crappy day."

Hypocrisy.

"The point is that specializing in guns and wearing gunslinger armor should make being a gunner much more satisfying and useful, the way the mad bomber and vog do for their respective classes."

Except Vog is only satisfying because it gives MEDIUM ASI AND NOT DAMAGE! This is why I say you guys are complaining pointlessly and without purpose. GUNSLINGERS ALREADY COME OUT OF THE GATES GUNNING FULL SPEED! Compare that to a heavy sword user who can't even safely swing twice without Ultra or Maximum! ASI. And if you want the luxury of Maximum! DMG, then GET THOSE TRINKETS. Vog swordsmen have to do the same, I assure you. And they also have to give up their shield slot to Barbarous Thorn Shield as well unless they have Very High ASI on all their weapons.

I'm sorry, but if you're going to complain about an imbalance, make it a legitimate one rather than "our armor has different words than theirs!"

If you're going to lodge a complaint with such little lack of commitment, then I can respond right back at you with the same nonchalance.

Why do you feel that gunners need a very high damage bonus set?

Answer: They don't.

Why should I work so hard for my 5 star sword sets and have to settle for merely very high in either ASI or damage? Why can't I have both like bombers? Hurr durr.

An interesting perspective @RayND, but as it stands, a gunner might as well leave the armor and just take the trinkets. Which was the starting argument to begin with, gunner armor sucks.

And while I'm interested in the idea of putting these two views on the variants side by side and compare notes, two things do stand out.

One is that, comparative bonus aside, players love their tokens. Basically, whether it means anything or not, gunners will want to match, point for point, the same apparent gear bonuses as any of the other players. It's not whining for more, it's wanting to feel that their gear actually does something for them. Gunner gear simply isn't that satisfying.

Two is that, where status effects are concerned, you're simply wrong. Yes, gunners are usually several spaces away, giving them a little more room to move, but you still have multiple projectiles and leaping enemies to deal with. It's even more evident with Missile Puppies and Vanaduke. In the end, there's four results, dodge, block, cancel, or get hit. Thing is, many of the same results are achieved by Swordsmen the exact same way as a gunner would. A gunner has an edge up on dodging, where status effects are concerned, but a swordsman has an edge up on cancel and and getting hit. Yes, this may be another 'perceived imbalance', but I can't blame them for jumping on it. (see point One)

Then there's the issue of Time vs Risk. The longer you spend fighting, the more likely you'll screw up. Can a careful swordsman take less damage by killing faster? I don't know. I know a careful gunner can handle himself well safety-wise, but he loses a lot of time. What's the value of this lost time? What's the value of lost damage? Some answers are given in party mode, where the loss of damage clearly shows the gunner as the lower. A swordsman is used to less time, more damage, so the pace is picked up, so a gunner is left behind, unable to bring his safety to bear until all the other swordsmen are dead.

Lastly you've the matter you brought up yourself. A gunner comes out the door full speed, yes? False, of course, there's some difference to the speed. However, if we take it as true, what's to stop a swordsman from just picking up a gun? He's already at 'top' speed. The damage difference lost when wielding a Vog or Skolver Coat instead of gunner gear is 24%ish for swords vs 12%ish for guns, so that decision's easy, yes? You claim a gunner starts off near top power, so what's the point of using Gunner gear when you can wear Swordsman or Bomber gear and still be just about as good?

Really mate if you worries about " HURRR GUNSLINGER DOES CRAPY DAMAGE BECOUSE IS MORE SAFE DURR"
Change the ASI UV for Reload speed at least...becouse ASI is just CRAP in guns, YEAH you can shoot "fast" and help to reload but the bonus i just sooo tiny.
"HURR BUT DONT FIRE ALL THE BULLETS HURR". YEAH lets make more useless my ASI bonus and Cripple my tiny amount of damage.
and really buff the shadowsun.

and other thing:
ohgodmyhead@ Yeah its funny see how Swordmaster and Bombers can use a gun a does the same amount of damage than a gunslinger with the same risk.

meanwhile a gunslinger cant use a bomb like a bomber becouse CTR HELPS ALOT and ASI in swords HELPS ALOT TOO when you wield Sealed(90% of the players) or troika.

OOO hate gunners dealt with it =(

Wow, are you that dense? Stop being nonsensical and maybe you wouldn't get such negative responses.

First of all, I wasn't the one that implied ASI -- and therefore, half of the gunslinger sets -- was useless. YOU, the gunslingers, did.

Second, I don't feel it should be changed because GUNSLINGERS SHOULD HAVE TO BE LIMITED TO THE SHADOWSUN SET IF THEY WANT TO GET +6 DAMAGE, just as most swordsmen are limited to Barbarous Thorn Shield, Swiftstrike Buckler, or a complete set of impossible to obtain double-UV weapons if they want to maximize ASI/DMG/CTR.

If you yourself don't see the problem of getting to keep your Grey Owlite Shield while essentially ignoring an entire stat (ASI), thereby easily stacking CTR and DMG and only needing one Very High UV to do so, then that's your own problem. At this point, even the defenses of the Shadowsun set (which still trump Mad Bomber) don't matter since shield and armor defenses are applied separately.

I don't even know how you can strawman someone THAT hard; the argument you claim that I'm making isn't even remotely recognizable at this point. I don't like you guys because I think you're wrong? I hate gunners because I think they're good? What?! For all you know I COULD BE A GUNNER AS WELL AS A SWORDSMAN. Playing devil's advocate doesn't work nearly as well when people confess to it upfront.

Since you seem to be so incapable of constructing an actual argument and insist on spouting blatant, off-topic lies about what I've said despite my in-depth rebuttals to your position, why not answer this simple question:

"Why should gunners be able to have FOUR sources of medium damage boosts when they only need to account for CTR and damage?"

"Because bombers can," is not a valid response.

@ohgodmyhead: What nerf? Shadowsun was ALWAYS at low, unless I'm mistaken. Gunners that look at their set, then look at Skolver (which isn't even as popular as Vog Cub, go figure) or Mad Bomber and actually stop and say, "Why isn't mine that powerful?" are, to put it gently, clueless.

I took one look and said, "Low? Makes sense." And I'd still wear it. It's not like +6 is impossible to obtain, so I see no problem. If you don't have a crazy weapon then just use Swiftstrike Buckler and already you have the same stats as a sword user. Everyone makes sacrifices. Everyone.

Guns have knockback.

As a heavy sword user, I choose to be severely restricted by three separate stats, yes. You too, as a handgun user, CHOOSE TO BE RESTRICTED. If anything, your restrictions are far more lenient. You have far more wiggle room for DMG and ASI as well as elemental resistances and shield type, especially if you straight up disregard CTR, whereas I can't even max out my bonuses and am FORCED to disregard one of them as it is, even with every slot packed with medium bonuses or higher.

Except we're not ignoring it, we're being denied it, or at least the bulk of its usefulness. You've been stating it just as true as THEY have, you're BOTH wrong, ASI is just difficult to judge, and questionable to use, so most just ignore it. Besides, I haven't sided with any of their comments other than the ones i support myself, I simply replied to a confrontational person who insists there isn't a problem. As represented by not only the sheer amount of gunners here who take issue with their gear, but also by the scarcity of gunners in game, obviously SOMETHING is wrong, be it gun damage, gun armor, or OOO failing to sell their gunner spec well.

Not only that, some of the pure gunners aren't ignoring it, they're using the Swiftstrike Buckler. Which is far worse than sacrificing your Owlite Shield for the Barabarous Shield. As for the Shadowsun, how does that 'Trump' the Mad Bomber Set in any way? By valuing each 2 resist and damage/ctr bonus as a single 'point', Mad Bomber at least breaks EVEN, Shadowsun's at a -3!

Answer for your question, They DON'T only have to account for that, they still get the ASI bonus, as i said before.

Now answer my question: Why do you care if the gunner is boosted? As far as i can see, it will only help all of us.

A valid standpoint, and i can understand it. However, player feedback IS important to Dev decisions, so discussions like this are perfectly acceptable. My primary concern was your behaviour in the discussions. I'm sorry, but yelling at people and directing personal attacks at them are not good methods to getting people to understand.

Swords get their most important bonus - ASI - at Very High from armor. The set that provides it also provides 2 of the most important defenses in the game as of yet - elemental and fire. Swords can also get Maximum damage bonus from armor alone if they so choose, as they're the only weapon type that has a shield that benefits them specifically. Before UVs, a swordsman can carry up to 10 points worth of bonuses

Gunners get their most impotant bonus, Damage, at Medium from armor. The set provides the least important defense in the game, piercing, and a weakness to Poison and Curse. A gunner's other option is the oft-considered useless ASI, which comes with a choice of elemental or piercing defense... but it's still useless, and if we wanted elemental defense specifically we'd actually be better off wearing Vog Cub armor. That point is crucial - some swordsman armor is better for gunners than the 'equivalent' gunners get. Before UVs, a gunner can carry up to 8 points of bonuses - if 4 of them are ASI, which we don't need. We can max out damage - at penalties to poison and curse defense, and not having elemental - but doing so would mean we need CTR as a UV; some guns, Catalyzer especially, need CTR as well. If we discount the ASI armors, we can carry 6 points of bonuses.

Bombers get their most important bonus, CTR, at High from armor. The set provides Elemental and Fire defense, again. They have the option of Medium damage, or even Very High damage and CTR, with a number of penalties. A standard volcanic demo bomber carries up to 7 points of bonus into battle, and need 10 to max everything that's useful without UVs. Bombers also have the option of far higher risk from status effects in order to carry 10 of the 12 bonus points they can get into battle, needing only a single elite module to max out their abilities; of course, having high-end UVs reduces the amount of penalties they need to take.

Now, clearly both gunners and bombers are behind swordsmen in terms of bonuses they can have, but while bombers at least get fire defense with their most useful ability, gunners only receive a medium bonus and are defensively penalized for attempting to use the only armor with a useful benefit. The poor quality of a gunner's options is likely one of the factors that makes most people give up on becoming one - and a thread complaining about it might be enough to convince OOO to change that. The weapon types should be balanced at the level of weapons, not at armor.

Nameless set+2 elite Trueshot modules+UV Ctr med on guns+heat 10. Bam. Ctr very high, Asi very high, damage very high. Problem solved, graveyard plz. Ty!

Note the plural at the end of my closing statement.

People need to stop getting so defensive when their arguments are scrutinized. Not everybody is going to sugar coat life for you, especially in a situation like this.

Despite your intentions, your post was NOT objectively worded through-out. I did read the rest, and here's a snippet from what you wrote: "gunners only receive a medium bonus and are defensively penalized for attempting to use the only armor with a useful benefit." So I guess swordsmen aren't penalized by taking up the same piercing defense when they opt for their Skolver set? It's deceptive language like this that weakens your arguments, or as you like to say, observations. When a new boss comes out that deals piercing, what will you say when all the Vog Cub users make the same kinds of observations?

"Swords are the only weapon type benifitted by a shield specifically - in a discussion about the comparison of armor between weapons, the Barbarous Thorn Shield is relevant."

I disagree, it's very relevant because of the nature of its bonus compared to Shadowsun and compared to other shields used in its place for defensive purposes.

Yeah, so you observe that swordsmen can have 10 boosts. Good for you. They require -- or get large usage out of -- 18. Gunners, by admission of everyone barring ohgodmyhead, including yourself, who favors ASI setups, only need a boost of 12. You also forgot to factor in the CTR bonus at heat level 10.

You may not like that the fact that I'm getting up in your faces about it, but it's for your own good. If you really feel gunners as a whole are underpowered, you really need to bring better arguments than this to the table. Such a weak resolve and even weaker arguments are telling of the degree to which you belief that gunners are so grossly underpowered and in need of a buff.