The only thing gunslinger need is change the ASI bonus for reload speed and other UV in shadowsun.
and really who cares if gunslinger get more damage, thats help the whole party, really im tired of the shiet "kick the gunslinger becouse do crapy damage and only is useless" or "HURR DURR USE SWORDS IS BETTER"
Despite your intentions, your post was NOT objectively worded through-out. I did read the rest, and here's a snippet from what you wrote: "gunners only receive a medium bonus and are defensively penalized for attempting to use the only armor with a useful benefit." So I guess swordsmen aren't penalized by taking up the same piercing defense when they opt for their Skolver set? It's deceptive language like this that weakens your arguments, or as you like to say, observations. When a new boss comes out that deals piercing, what will you say when all the Vog Cub users make the same kinds of observations?
No, gunners are penalized for taking the damage boost set - it reduces their poison and curse defenses . That is objective. It, like the skolver set, has piercing defense as well - and piercing may inded one day be relevant - however in this case I was NOT talking about the piercing defense as a penalty. Oh, guess what, the skolver set, on top of having double the damage bonus, has Freeze defense, not two penalties. Also objective.
And if a new boss makes Vog Cub's elemental defense pointless, so what? Elemental attacks exist in just about any strata outside tier one. It will always be relevant, where a piercing boss would make piercing relevant in one strata. Unless they release a whole load of piercing enemies that show up anywhere, that won't change.
"Swords are the only weapon type benifitted by a shield specifically - in a discussion about the comparison of armor between weapons, the Barbarous Thorn Shield is relevant."
I disagree, it's very relevant because of the nature of its bonus compared to Shadowsun and compared to other shields used in its place for defensive purposes.
You... just agreed that it's relevant. It's primarily relevant in a gear balance discussion because it's a gear factor that gunners and bombers don't even have a minor option for.
Yeah, so you observe that swordsmen can have 10 boosts. Good for you. They require -- or get large usage out of -- 18. Gunners, by admission of everyone barring ohgodmyhead, including yourself, who favors ASI setups, only need a boost of 12. You also forgot to factor in the CTR bonus at heat level 10.
Gunners can't actually max out their boosts even with UVs, but swordsmen can - and with ANY combination of their armor, as long as they use the BTS - a swordsman can have max damage bonus while still enjoying all the benefits of elemental defense and fire resistance on their armor. There is no UV setup that allows a gunner maximum damage bonus, ASI and CTR. ASI may be mostly useless for us, but it's still a point. It's known to have an effect, it's merely that with most guns, that effect is considered worthless - there are obscure cases such as the autogun series where it does matter, though. A bomber can max out all their bonuses and have a trinket slot to spare, if they choose mad bomber - or with a V.High CTR UV, manage the same with no penalties (though no fire defense).
I didn't forget the CTR bonus at heat 10; it's not relevant in an armor discussion, and all weapons have it, so it is a null point.
You may not like that the fact that I'm getting up in your faces about it, but it's for your own good. If you really feel gunners as a whole are underpowered, you really need to bring better arguments than this to the table. Such a weak resolve and even weaker arguments are telling of the degree to which you belief that gunners are so grossly underpowered and in need of a buff.
You're consistently failing to grasp other people's logic while making ad hominem attacks and refusing to accept any counter-arguments whatsoever.
There. I can insult you too.
@Gunslingers dominating the game if they're buffed.
Stop thinking in extremities. Just because something is buffed, doesn't mean everyone in the game is going to get it. Think Troika. Now it has a 5* version, and only a select few members are still getting it. Nobody said to buff gunslingers so that they outrageously overpower the other classes. As it is now, only a few percent of the population use more than 1 or 2 guns, where at least half of the population uses swords. And you still do not see a problem with this, and you haven't addressed this concern, either.
@Won't buff gunslingers, but will debuff every other class?
Ray, I don't understand your argument here. Buffs and debuffs are relative. So you're saying if I made a thread asking OOO to debuff every other class armor, you'd be wholly supportive of that? Not likely. Also, by debuffing OTHER armor sets, Shadowsun gains a relative buff. (by the way, you can do italics with the em tag, as stated below the text box.)
Player outrage over the 'debuff' of status resists was big enough, so now you suggest that OOO should debuff other crucial, very popular armor sets to bring them down to 'par' with Shadowsun? A better solution would be to simply buff Shadowsun--in that case, everyone's happy. Well, except you.
@You point out the ASI set for swords as saying they get their "most important bonus" from Vog Cub, then you talk about how they have the benefit of Skolver + Barbarous Thorn and compare it to Shadowsun. Last time I checked, "increase sword damage" ≠ "attack speed increase."
Ray, what are you talking about? Nobody ever said dmg=asi. Are you complaining that you rely too heavily on Vog to be able to get Skolver, or something? Over mentioned Vog: v.high ASI and Skolver: v.high DMG as examples of the SEVERAL options sworders have in gear selection--very good sets, might I add. Gunslinger armor sucks which ever way.
@Bigfoot You already said that.
It's quite obvious that gunslinger gear gets the short end of the stick in every possible way, but the Shadowsun specifically makes the armor nearly dreadful to use. Increasing the damage bonus to medium won't be game breaking, what it will do is give the extremely few pure gunslingers a little variety in what armor path they want to choose. You definitely won't be seeing all gunslingers change to Shadowsun (let alone everyone choosing to become a gunslinger), as it's similar to compare a Med Damage bonus Shadowsun to a Nameless, with a Skolver to a Vog.
Remember that this isn't about Guns vs Swords, it's about Gun armor vs All other armor.
I'm a gunslinger with Nameless and Trueshot, got the Polaris, Callahan, Biohazard and Blitz Needle. If i'm dead i'm looking at my teammates and i've never seen a swordmen who deals more damage than me XD Most of the people here just see low numbers but can't really calculate everything up. Gunslinger is imho the best choice for smart people. You can do any run really easy without even getting hitted. Also you permanently can attack while every swordmen needs some back up or block etc. ASI is very useful, but you have to know how to shoot. every gunslinger who pulls out every shot he can sux and has a low dps, so they cry. I'm pretty amused by all the whining no skill gunslinger out there. gl hf :) the only fix the gunslinger needs, is a resist on the armor and no debuffs on the sunset set.
Does anyone think giving the nameless set fire ressistance is a could idea? It would then qualify as volcanic. Xyonon said it needed a status resist. Prehaps nameless could have fire ressist, and sunset could have shock or posin? I'm not fully suppourting this idea, just posting it as food for thought.
It's painfully conspicuous that gunslinger sets are the only class sets that don't offer ANY status resistances (Deadshot doesn't count; it's not gun-specific, and even then it's only Curse resist). I'd be nice to see some fire resist on Nameless (or Justifier, even) at least, and maybe the weaknesses scaled back on Shadowsun (this armor piece has some of the worst debuffs in the game, rivalled only by mad bomber and chaos--the former has enough buffs to be worth it, and the latter, like shadowsun, is in bad need of a buff as well).
However, I notice that proponents for buffs to gunslinger armor are FAR outnumbered by those opposed to it, so I won't ask for resists AND offensive boosts in fear of overstaying my welcome, as the phrase goes. I'm sure many people reading this think I have by this point, anyway.
Everyone just wants the flow of the game to stay as sword only with Shivermist so they don't have to make new gear.
They like the illusion that they're 'the best' when it's purely circumstantial that swordsmen have the best gear in the game.
Out of all the weapons in the game, swords need the least amount of boosts to be effective and are always viable, no matter what.
Yet they keep getting the best gear.
Why?
Because everyone buys and crafts the hell out of sword related gear.
Guns? A gun user without any bonuses deals less damage, attacks slower and moves slower than a sword user.
With the maximum attainable bonuses? Still deals less damage, attacks slower and moves slower than a sword user with no bonuses.
All of the best items for gunners don't even come from the gunner related sets.
Same with bombs, except bombs only have one required statistic as opposed to three, one of which appearing on their bombs at level 10. Meaning a 5-star bomber set and heat level 10 bomb is all they need to be effective and viable in any part of the game.
And one of those sets gives a very high CTRas well as a very high damage bonus!
Also, let's not forget.
Some swords offer a utility that no other weapon has in terms of lunging forward.
I've seen people use the flourish just to escape monsters with little risk, thanks to the knockback and speed.
Bombs also have a lot of knockback, meaning kiting multiple monsters and moving in tight spaces is still easy.
Gunners rely solely on movement to escape being mobbed.
And if they are? Their only means of escaping is to shield bump.
Knockback and Crowd Control are practically non-existent.
Gunners are seriously gimped in absolutely every way. Even after the buffs to stop gunners from being rooted in place after certain charge attacks, they are still the least versatile and least viable class of weapons in the game.
They're a sidearm at best.
It needs to be fixed.
I think the game should aim to have variety. The best way would be to have the optimal team consist of at least one guy of each: swordsman, bomber and gunman. With those titles I mean basically that the player can mainly focus on his "thing" like swording with equipment, but can also carry off-spec weapons for emergencies.
Basically, I would be really happy if 2 sword guys, one bomber and one gunner would be the best setup to deal with most levels.
To achieve that, you first need to have reasonably balanced gear and also you need to make the game roughly as rewarding in terms of advancement possibilities for the specialized gear. Currently, the first one is in my opinion a minor problem (guns are a bit low powered) and the second one is a big problem (gun sets are not worth getting when compared to other stuff). In addition, you need to have some challenges where swords shine, some where bombs are real useful, and some where guns are really good - this is ok at the moment for me.
Even if you allow gunners to get the same amount of "levels of boosts" in their gear, the gun damage is lower than sword damage, and that is the easily adjusted balance element to allow trading safety and/or attack speed for damage when going from gun -> sword. There is no need to have less levels of advancement for gunner gear, since added damage is not fixed steps, but instead proportional. A gun getting max damage gets +39% damage and so does a sword, but the sword gets more in terms of absolute damage numbers.
I think a gun should use the same amount of gear slots to get the +39% to damage as a sword or a bomb. The resulting damage numbers in game are irrelevant in that discussion, since base damages are different.
I'm a swordy and I like having gunners as my backup on stages simply because sword + gun support is the quickest combo to eliminate enemies, two swordys battling the same monster will often get one in the way of the other when a swordy + gunner will not get in each others way, the swordy keeps the monster away from the gunner, and the gunner often produces status on the enemy so is easier and quicker to finish.
Gunner might be the "safer" way to deal with monsters but because of the low damage they deal it takes quite a long time for them to solo or even face boss monsters.
I say they deserve at least similar bonuses on their 5* sets and a couple of status defenses (at least skolver and vog have fire and ice resists).
Go gunslingers.
Xyonon, at first I thought I was doing something wrong, but then I remembered that you made up those numbers, and that you use Polaris, which is really the only gun (aside from Autogun, which is barely a 'gun') which can stand up to other classes, and even then it's about as reckless as a noob running around with a charged calibur. As a friend so acutely stated, Polaris was just OOO throwing a bone at gunslingers.
The Alchemers, Magnus and Antigua are all still barely usable at best, unless paired with very good buffs (but no damage:v.high armor for us, right?) or very good skill--and that skill would be better used elsewhere in terms of class efficiency, really.
My complaints about gunslingers are based on the crappy armor we've been given, the crippling movement speed (naturally the only class founded on mobility gets a 55% speed reduction any time their gun is pulled out) and the horrendously small clips that require too-long reloads.
I'm a main gunner in this game, although I do carry bombs as well as guns.
I think that as guns sit, we're in a good and bleh spot at the same time.
We're in a good spot in that asi and ctr are so worthless we can be narrow minded and max damage with out a second though...
We are also in a bleh spot for the same reason... UV's aren't really in demand for gunners because they barely make a difference :\
About gunslinger buffs -
1) giving a single grade higher uv of damage to an item is not that much, especially since damage uv are percentage based meaning the low base numbers of a gun already keep equal uv's from being as valuable. I don't believe getting medium damage bonus on shadowsun would make guns op, or even convert players to use guns. Newbie gunners might go to shadowsun first since the uv's seem the most appealing at a glance... Just like we see newbie swordies grab skolver, only to die non-stop in t3 and learn the value of other stats such as asi and resistances.
2) I really don't want to see many more gunners in the game... I like being a bit rarer of a breed, even if it's because my choice of playstyle adds less damage to the group... In fact, I prefer it that way. When the rest of my party is dead and I kite / bomb / gun every enemy down while their dead swordie corpses are on the ground, I'll prove my worth. When I'm at full health and able to rez 2 ppl and still live through the room, I'll prove my worth. When it comes to showing off big damage numbers, I'll gladly let the swordie win.
3) Guns are REALLY easy in this game... Not an auto win button, but aside from jelly king they are the easiest to live + kill with. A swordie can't just run around while everything in the room dies, he has to get up close. Bombers are the worst for this since they have to charge on approach. Gunners can stay on their toes constantly. Also player skill brings more to a gunner than a swordie. Player skill matters for all classes, but with sword player skill matters least (gaining the most from raw mechanics), with bombers next, and gunners gaining the most from player skill (and likewise the least from mechanics.)
Anyway - a lot of arguing going on here... I'd like bonuses to damage matching other classes... but more than that I'd like the attitude of the game to stay the same, which is that most players are main swordies or hybrid bombs or guns with swords, and few main bombs or guns excluding swords.
Okey let see.
*Gunslinger dont lack in damage becouse of the HIGH DPS
*Gunslinger lacks in a usefull UV ( ASI dont help a lot)
*The reload time cant be a pain in the ass and cripples the ASI bonus.
*Small clips in some weapons (like alchelmer or magnus) but i think its OK for balance.
*The armor defence is OK (shadowsun need rework) becouse is rare for a gunslinger take damage (really is amazing)
Soo, i vote for:
1)Reload time UV or more bullets (maybe a little OP on alchelmers and Blitz, like 20 bullets in a single charge.. demencial !)
2)Bullet speed UV (maybe makes magnus line useless)
3)Range UV (its pretty meh)
4)CTR UV ( Yeah its like a direct buff to Catalyzer, alchelmer, autogun, Pulsar(?) series, but dont help magnus series)
well i think Reload speed is the best option ( its just a IMO)
I can't remember ever had to reload with my Biohazard (wich outdamages also the swordies like the Polaris and Blitz Needle) or Polaris. If you got ASI (yea attack speed increased - IT DOESNT SUCK DAMN!!) you will do 2 shot, wait a moment up to the point where the gun is normal holded again (note ASI does also decrease the time to grab the weapon and bring it back to that position) and you can shot again 2 times without reloading.
1. you do much more damage than just spam
2. you allways can stop shooting and run faster
3. you allways can stop shooting and block without getting interrupted by reload
4. you can laught about guys who cry about asi in some gunslinger whine tread :D
ASI is pretty important and useful, just use it and be happy. I think the gunslinger are pretty ok atm, the only thing that sux are the resistances of the armors.
Xyonon, if you're going to prove a point about Gunslinger damage, please at least use real number instead of imaginary ones.
We don't know if what you say is even accurate enough to be numerically analyzed towards DPS unless you can actually cite your numbers.
If you actually can give what damage you actually deal (say on floor 16 of a Royal Jelly run, floor 27 of a Vanaduke run, any floor damage to arena constructs, etc), and say what damage bonuses you do as well as how fast you can do that damage, we can do real comparisons. Otherwise, there's more than enough information out there damage wise to not believe your claim due to previous comparisons between guns' and swords' recorded damage.
This still wouldn't be enought to confirm everything ... i guess I'm asking this evening a friend for a record program, so nothing tells more than a youtube vid ;)
Xyonon, I admit that Pulsar and perhaps Autogun can stand in as very good weapons in terms of damage, but what about Magnus or the Alchemers? Alchemers are essentially a pitiful combination between bombs and swords, dealing very little damage and being difficult to aim at more than one target (unless they're bunched together). The guns are okay, but deal less than half the raw damage that Polaris does--I guess the Alchemers are more of an arena gun, aside the fact that a 2-shot clip doesn't help at all with kiting, and that in arenas with mecha knights, your shots are going to be blocked most of the time anyway--as if they do real damage anyway; you'd be better off spamming status bombs.
As for Magnus, it's like Autogun, but with less damage and some awful recoil.
OOO really hates guns--painfully obvious after they modified the level in D26 or D27 of Vanaduke, not allowing Pulsars to shoot behind the wheels..
Alchemers are essentially a pitiful combination between bombs and swords, dealing very little damage and being difficult to aim at more than one target (unless they're bunched together).
I really don't understand why so many people hate on alchemers.
2* and 3* alchemers are kind of crap - they don't ricochet enough. But 4* and 5* alchemers have at least 1 or 2 ricochets per bullet.
If you shoot between two enemies, you're doing 2x or 3x damage per shot.
If you shoot between an enemy and a wall, you get the same bonus.
Sometimes the bullets even ricochet into a single enemy standing in the middle of the room. Blame the physics model.
You can move while firing. You do pure elemental or pure shadow damage. You have reasonable range. Prismatech and Shadow Alchemers got their damage boosted in the Roarmulus update, and Prismatech alchemers are even useful now.
What's the problem?
2* and 3* alchemers are kind of crap - they don't ricochet enough. But 4* and 5* alchemers have at least 1 or 2 ricochets per bullet.
If you shoot between two enemies, you're doing 2x or 3x damage per shot.
You can move while firing. You do pure elemental or pure shadow damage. You have reasonable range. Prismatech and Shadow Alchemers got their damage boosted in the Roarmulus update, and Prismatech alchemers are even useful now.
What's the problem?
-------------------------
The problem is
- ricochet doesn't increase damage, it applies it to a second target. Swords apply to everyone within the swing arc, and especially in the case of the da, every in the arc and in 3 bars extending as far as gun range...
- Doing pure damage doesn't actually help the guns. In short - their base damage is SO bad that doing pure damage is a non-issue. If them doing pure damaged allowed for very high damage when used against an enemy's weakness this would be a plus, but the real effect is that you NEED to be hitting a mob with his weakness element or you're gonna be even slower...
I used one Alchemer b4 i had the Pulsar and i gues they are the reason why all cry around that gunslinger are imba... But i have not played long enought with em to say why and in wich situations they are good or bad. I guess they should increase them all by 1 or 2 shots to balance them to other guns, also the Magnus. The Magnus is not for damage like other weapons, but the Magnus or better Callahan allows you to stunlock enemies like, especially all Gremlins. Also the Callahan is a safe way to deal with Wolver, Devilites and Greavers. For me i mainly use Blitz and Polaris, Biohazard is great against masses of Gremlins and great against any mass of Jelly. Also Poison is sooo damn good.
btw. guys i got a problem ... WHY CAN'T I RECORD SPIRAL KNIGHTS WITH XFIRE!?
... help D: need a recording programm for show the damage gunslingers can deal D:
My current gun gear is sunset set, true shot x2, swift strike buckler, Polaris, Callahan, and Biohazard. I agree that shadow sun having med bonus instead of low is a fair fix. Im going for nameless set however that plus two dote true shots and ss buckler =dmg vh and asi max. Ive read alot of gunner theory crafting threads and asi has always been said to be better dps. Even with my current set up with specialized dmg from the guns and ultra asi/ med dmg from gear I feel I put alot of DMg down range. I feel this way because my dmg is constant it doesn't have to stop to reposision and/or charge. I in no way feel that gunslingers are broken just in need of a few tweaks. I have 2 full sword sets 1 gun set and am working on a bomb set. I have fun with all of em. I think Bombers are more gimped than anyone till they reach 4-5 star range. I believe gunners are fine just change shadow sun and asi helping reload would be nice but not needed.
I love your post, exactly what I said *_* Whats your in game name? :D Add me! Abathur :)
I second the notion of making ASI affect reload speeds. That would make having ASI relevant for gunslingers.
Charge attacks for guns could be improved but aren't strictly necessary.
In my opinion gunslinger armor should definitely be buffed because they simply do not stand up to their respective counterparts for Sword and Bomb users. Armor also needs to be buffed more than guns themselves as armors tend more to be class specific.
I also agree that gunslinging isn't terribly broken and undoable. It just requires some tweaking to make it more worthwhile - for new gunslingers and existing ones.
Also, I hope new guns will be more like the Polaris. Ie: Hit harder and have larger clip sizes / provide utility in the form of awesome AOE/status effects.
My personal complaint against guns is NOT balance, but fun.
I feel that Handguns need combos. I feel that they need more than one animation for their shots, and that for each consecutive shot there should be a bonus in damage. I feel that there should be fancy footwork and flashy moves, that there should be knockback and maybe multiple shots for certain gun combos.
I don't know about anyone else, but I find shooting the exact same bullets into a crowd over and over again tedious and boring. Imagine if Swords only had the first strike's animation, or if Bombs had - er, nevermind.
The point is, IF guns had combos, the risk factor would be increased, which would mean there would be greater need for reward. More damage, more defense, more resists, no need to reload, and a snazzy visual aesthetic all at the same time.
But that's just me, and I'm sure there are many traditional 'Slingers that would be strongly against any changes made to their gameplay.
Food for thought, I guess.