Discuss Playing Free, mostly for new players or old players | New: Thread for adding constructive Free-to-Play solutions!
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 17:23
EDIT: I fixed the title so that there will be more posts relating to new players.
Does anyone else think the new price changes to mod calibrator / 1 variant ticket are insane?
No, the item / variant itself is not the issue. The issue is how our game is getting scored as a 51. We don't like how this happened and go into denial saying how it was wrong. Really, this was a correct score because OOO has tagged the game is "free" therefore it is free to play... yet you can't do more than a full tier of clockworks in a day when you start without paying. At that point, you cannot play because you haven't payed. So you have to pay to play. This is why in a free game you put small marketting schemes for business within the game. You don't make the entire game a marketting scheme. This is because the player-priced CE is out of hand due to things like power surges and there being too much CE and not enough crown, and of course, it is controlled by players. Even if we had more crown, the CE prices would go right back up because it is controlled by the ones among us that are constantly buying CE. The problem here is not wether i get to play or not, because i could care less, i've bought ce and dont mind it. The problem is that new players aren't getting what they deserve, and we are getting looked at in a bad way... and its sad because i dont like saying it and love this game... it is currently what we deserve.
And now, what happens, the next update is created to take more crown out of the majority of us, buttered up with a significant decrease to the 3 variant ticket which the majority of us do not buy. It makes me feel bad that this has to happen... All im saying is please, if we cant better the game, we need to focus on content updates at the least.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 18:27
#2
Well i bet when you are going
Well i bet when you are going to review a game, you aren't expecting to actually be restricted to a certain amount every 23ish hours, depending on how long you got to play. Remember, it IS a FREE GAME. (In TF2 and Champions onling, you could PLAY the game, in spiralknights, you CANT even PLAY is where I'm getting.)
Anyway, as i said there being too much CE, you have to really have almost no crowns at all in the game in order to have the price of CE to go down. Right now, there IS CE, there IS crown, just that its harder to buy CE than it is to sell it, you can see as low as 7 ce offers in the market and then go over to the right and view hundreds. As it has been stated millions of times, too seller controlled. Where really, it shouldnt be controlled by anyone in the game. OOO might as well make a vendor that buys CE at 6000 and sells it at 6500 or something like that to make sense RP-wise that the vendor is "making a profit" though, really, if OOO would be nice :3, the vendor would buy CE at 5000 and sell it at 5500. The only way to gain / sell CE.
Anyways, another problem in this game is how the clockworks is basically( not entirely now with this stupid bomberman copy thing ) the only content the game has, yet they dont even promote playing it! its ridiculous! they have an awesome design of these clockworks, yet love watching CE prices be 6-7k, making players go when they give OOO 10 bucks to support them "Hmm, i can go into the clockworks more than once a day! oh... id be making considerably less doing that i could just sell this on the market and make more when i dont need to heat" (dont tell me vana runs give you more cr. I know there are ways to out-gain ce prices, but this thread is focused on new player flexibility and overall flexibility)
And finally, them making a profit off of us $$$-wise. You said you can get every game important item. Yes. But how long would it take you to get one? TF2 and Champs online, as stated above LET YOU PLAY! wether or not you get a ton out of it wont matter, you get to enjoy their content! OOO does the opposite and hates on its own content it created!
_____________________________________________
*******All you need to do is have small market schemes like dont let costume slots or other weapon slots open until you pay irl $$, say, 10$ for a perma wep slot, 5$ for a perma costume slot, 10$ for trinket slots each. This way we can all play the game, there is a vendor that controls energy prices which OOO can control, to go up or down depending on what they want to be doable for their players (I am talking about like 4k, make t1 crown give out enough to hit this so we can all play, with very small or nothing extra to make them take conservation choices of wait for my mist, get to do free runs, get to craft my item with 100 less energy), at a price that you could still upkeep the x amount of irl $$$ for x amount of energy and having those that spend money on CE get as op as they are currently. thats how free games work.
Why will OOO not do this?
Currently, they are more interested in the one-time big amount of money gain from that small x amount of their playerbase that is not afraid to drop in a lot of money. If they would do something like I said above, they would get a good flow of money, enough to add content and make a successful game, maybe not the exact values i stated.
Now. They would not do this as they do not like the idea of anyone who does not pay gets to play. This is not called tagging your game as free. It's called charge 30 bucks or whatever and do as i stated above, maybe without having to pay irl for wep slots etc, just energy.
Until OOO realizes what they are doing, which they must not since there are way too many CE is bad threads yet no response period ever, lets continue on with updates about making us use more cr. It feels like the devs that i love for making this game are dictators. They aren't listening to us.
Once this is realized and something is done about CE prices (YES, a worthless statement asking OOO to do something about CE prices) the rating for this game would significantly go up because of how awesome it is!
So, for US until then, we need to keep bumping the "CE r bad" annoying threads until the entire forums are filled with them and them only... this would force the devs to look at them incase, ya know, maybe they just skipped over the hundreds of them and didnt realize their playerbase is asking something from them.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 18:25
#3
"The issue is how our game is
"The issue is how our game is getting scored as a 51."
Do you really think that the PC Gamer reviewer has the slightest clue what a mod calibrator or a variant ticket is? The way he scored the game a 51 was to write the review before he had the slightest clue what he was talking about.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 18:29
#4
Those are not related. please
Those are not related. please read everything so you understand what this thread is about. As stated in my second sentence, its not the acutal change, its the attitude OOO has for their game.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 18:34
#5
wow
@ quiz, well he got as far as any new-player would, so far you show above average intelligence, now think of the general populaces intelligence, I bet that PC gamer reviewer, was exactly at that level, average, also known as your normal everyday player, BINGO...he rage-quit...see the issue?
now to place this link for everyone else thinking above the problem.
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/23548
Lets give OOO some ideas to fix the problem, they will notice if we actually start giving good idea's and work as a team, instead of a rag tag group of people at each others throats.
We all want the same thing really, so lets make OOO see what we want, and give it to us, instead of bickering amongst ourselves over it.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 18:47
#6
Thank you Naruchico, your
Thank you Naruchico, your posts have yet again reduced stupid, wish I wouldve known about that thread.
Anyways, to all that feel stupid for reading anything in this thread get this from it and keep it in your head:
OOO has had a ton of CE r bad threads on their forums, and so far, the farthest they have gotten is raising crown prices to important things buttered up behind lowered crown to an unpopular thing.
Something HAS to be done, it is not exactly OOO's choice because believe it or not, they aren't in total control of their playerbase, and greedy updates are getting them nowhere. they have now made people that i know that spend money on this game and love this game, start to see the dark side of it.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 19:05
#7
Oh my goodness I was not
Oh my goodness I was not expecting an intelligent response, let alone a massive wall of text. I've been spending too much time on Steam forums.
I see what you're getting at now, and it DOES make sense from a player standpoint that we shouldn't be limited as to how long we can play a game, however from a company's point of view, this energy business is fantastic. If people buy energy once, they'll most likely buy it again when they realize how it makes everything so much easier. Which is also why things like slot and bonus upgrades are spent in energy and not crowns, because from a F2P standpoint, those aren't necessary, just nice things to have.
And yes, the market does need a heavy change; having the most important currency in the game controlled by a playerbase that has money (or more accurately access to it) is bound for some horrible uncontrollable price fluctuations. The only way to fix this would be for crystal trade vendor like that and then a system which replaces elevator costs, but calling for changes like this to happen are probably going to be just as ignored as the server lag issues.
And finally, PC Gamer's review is a load of crud and needs to be re-reviewed by someone who's actually willing to play the game and not whine about it's owner's tactics. I can easily see this getting in the 70's in it's current status (hindered by the energy system and the lag issues on top of low amount of other content)
If I missed anything in your paragraphs reply and tell me, I'm trying to shorten these essays.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 19:49
#8
Players who spend money will
Players who spend money will always have the most influence on F2P games. It is an unavoidable fact that you have to make peace with.
There are many F2P games that allow you to play as long as you want. In order to be viable from a business standpoint, these games are impose a lot of grinding elements to hinder progress. Naturally, players that spend money get access to benefits that make progress easier.
F2P game design falls into two categories. It all boils down to players making progress within a few hours of restricted time or players making the equivalent amount of progress over a month with no time restrictions.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:00
#9
Ok.For 1, you are very
EDIT: For C7_the_epic:
Ok.
For 1, you are very correct at the we shouldn't be limited, sums it all up, though yes there is a lot more to it, which you easily put after "however from a company's point of view, this energy business is fantastic" <--THAT. it's killin' us! lol.
Our issue right now is finding a way to get to OOO to realize that there is an actual issue that can't just be "oh well im makin money since I am that means the game must be doing well"ed (nooooooo lol).
And the main reason its killin us is it affects the game that we love. Because believe it or not, there is more behind crying about energy being bad than a headache. If you can depict the numberous threads of crying, that means there is numerous threads of crying, something is wrong.
So now, why you think the game didnt deserve the 51, is because you have actually played it. Remember what you said in paranthesis following what you said the game should've been rated, that. So long as this game remains a marketting scheme, hindered by the energy system, shall it remain low-scored, because you cannot just score a game because you love it / hate it. You go in new to it, and come out with what you would score it.
You know there is a problem with your game if, when being scored, it wasn't even possible to come out of it, or start really. You have to give credit to anyone that scores this game being how hard to score it is, most from what i hear dont consider it a game (marketting scheme). Remember. It was scored based off it being a free game, as it is clearly stated in your face on spiralknights.com.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:08
#10
@ Velops:"There are many F2P
@ Velops:
"There are many F2P games that allow you to play as long as you want."
Spiral knights would not fall under this category, this is the issue. To be honest, im not exactly sure where you are really going.
Anyway, for the grinding part, you can't grind in SK as a free player as it isn't even possible, being able to grind though would be being able to enjoy the content, would be what we would like, regardless of gain.
Another issue right now is that if you were a person that wasn't free to play a payed for CE, you might even profit more off of not playing the game (energy market giving you a better profit over what you could make at current gear level)
There is a lot more issues to it that just not being able to play...
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:06
#11
I can play this game all day
I can play this game all day for free..just saying. I think the majority of people who play online games don't take the time to look up a game score anyways, they just read the little description in the corner and click play.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:16
#12
@ Code:
1. we are talking
@ Code:
1. we are talking about new players around t1ish / t2, not if you play for free atm and happen to be doing FSC runs
2. If 1. isnt the case you are doing more than just clockworks-related things, as the clockworks being the only (excluding pvp thing) current content, it is considered the game atm.
3. If you sit in haven begging / spamming using a marketting scheme of your own all day not doing the clockworks, that doesn't count as playing the game. what does is stated in 2.
4. If you still are all that plus more, don't respond saying oh yeah i totally do the clockworks t1 / 2 all day without ever being energy-thirsty without ever buying ce, then tell us what you are doing right yet so wrong. Remember, CE costs 6.5ish thousand ce in the market, dont use mike who gives you 100 ce fo 3k cuz hes yo buddy.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:21
#13
On topic
I'm glad to see we are getting on the right topic here, and we are seeing both sides of the street, we have to look at this from all points of view.
The Company
The New Player
The Old Player
The Payer Player
The Free-Player
Its a lot to look at but we have each and every one of these on the forum, except one(the company)
I think the biggest issue is, we want to help, but we are starting to see OOO true colors, look at games like world of tanks, they are a smaller company, they have a different model, and a different overall view of things, but they have one thing that I have seen with my experience with them.
They are really In with the players, or have people to talk to us, I see so many posts from "Overlord" which is their admin/rep and its amazing how much they respond, and I think thats why their game has set world records, they show genuine care for the players.
Here, not to start an ANTI-OOO rage, but there is a lack of Interaction between the two of us.
Its under an old story.
We tie a note to a stone and throw it across the pit hoping they received it on the other side, but all we can do is wait for a stone in return.
With a game like this where we are a very much becoming a tight-nit community with each other, we are becoming less and less a community that includes the developers.
We want to help everyone, we want OOO to make money so they can make a great game for us, but it feels like we are just lining the pockets of big business because we don't feel like their our neighbors, we don't feel like they are working with us.
But if we stick it out, we show we are working with them even if they aren't working right next to us they may respect us more and slowly join us, give us their input, the problem I feel is they came out of Beta with so many intentions, and so much rush for income, they left us behind.
but to cut this wall of text short, we can still work together as a community to make a solution, and then from there we need to find the best solution, and work together to put it on their plate, if we put aside out disagreements we can produce something bigger and better than shouting "stop whining" or "your dumb".
Whining and fighting never fixed anything, and the forums has generally turned from that for quite some-time, but now that we are past that initial phase I can see the people coming out of the wood-works so to speak thinking about solutions, so lets do just that work towards a greater goal together and put together and Idea that OOO can't deny as the best solution to the problem!
-Rah rah rah, WE ARE THE SPIRAL KNIGHTS!-
:D
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:29
#14
I'm a new player and I have
I'm a new player and I have to say I'm having fun with Spiral Knights. Yes, it does take a while to get 100 CE, but I don't think it's unfair. Also, I think you don't really understand what how most free-to-play games actually support themselves--through advertising, and/or microtransactions. Some games sell vanity items. Some sell items that put free players at a major disadvantage regardless of skill. Finally, some games, like Spiral Knights, sell convenience.
You argue that Spiral Knights restricts content. I argue that Spiral Knights restricts the convenience of access to content. No one has to pay a cent to access the tiers. When you get to Moorcroft Manor, the kats don't redirect you to Paypal, do they? If they did, then it would be restricting content to paying customers only.
Yes, there is a line where the inconvenience becomes so great as to outweigh the fun of said content. In my opinion, I don't think the game's passed that line. If someone else does, then that's their thing.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:31
#15
So T1 is all we should be
So T1 is all we should be talking about, because T2 you can make enough to play the game all day. So when I started playing this game, all I did was get to Haven, spend my first day getting crowns and buy all the recipes I needed for 2 star everything. Second day, spent my mist to get more crowns. Third day got my armor. Fourth day, got my Helm. Fifth day got my Shield. Sixth day got my sword. And Seventh day got my Gun. After that you hit T2 and can spam Jelly king run for crowns all day and continue playing. So after a week of playing a hour and a half a day on mist, I could play all I wanted, not that I did. Really OOO gives you a free 8k a day at least and a free hour and a half of play time. To get more time, all you do is spend the crowns you made from the free time they gave you to buy more time. Which I think means if you use the free crowns you get, to buy more CE, without spending real cash, this game is a completely free game.
If you really want to spend over a hour and a half a day playing a free online game, that is why there is a pay option, or a grind it out option. Still the grind it out option is a free option, no matter how long it may take.
Edit: Like whats said above.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:30
#16
+1
For the idea, so far id
+1
For the idea, so far id say the best is make a seperate clockworks similar to others, all question marks no crystal deposit control, very low crown gain and material gain if no material gain, and no cost.
Off-note, I would personally make the weapon slot / trink slot / costume slot not a free to all / buy with energy. Since they are all considered perks, they should cost real money for a permanent slot boost. This will make that free / pay to play distinction that most games have / want to get money from a player eventually so they can build onto their game.
You can't get this money until that new player has played your game and agrees likes it, i.e the free random clockworks with very small gains (not the advanced training hall).
Otherwise, keep the CE system, add this.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:36
#17
@ Code:"If you really want
@ Code:
"If you really want to spend over a hour and a half a day playing a free online game, that is why there is a pay option, or a grind it out option. Still the grind it out option is a free option, no matter how long it may take."
This isn't how "Free!" games work. its you play free while not benefitting much if not at all (a free, randomized clockworks with small crown gain to test the game) or pay to gain a lot. Atm, it isnt possible to "grind" as you cannot even play the game. Then following this idea of a free clockworks totally randomized with low gain, those free players end up spending money cause they realise they like this, after getting the chance to experience the game.
If they do not like it, well, this isn't the issue and from there the devs will take the reins and add content.
Anyways at top you said how you did jelly runs for free at t2 cause you could spam it.
That was in the past.
Did you know they nerfed one jelly level because it gave too much crown? Also the obvious one, CE costs more, and from what i hear its due to things like power surge weekends and players leaving
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:38
#18
Rawkcake said:
"Then
Rawkcake said:
"Then following this, those free players end up spending money cause they realise they like this, after getting the chance to experience the game."
...Which is exactly how free-to-play games are supposed to make money! Has the concept completely gone over your head? People don't pay for something they hate, right?
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:46
#19
Then why don't we do Free!
Then why don't we do Free! like this, limit content. The majority of other free games say hey, you can play all you want, you can just do this this this and this. Spiral Knights is one of the few games that say hey you can do whatever you want in this game. They could limit the game to T1 for non paying players but lets say you can play all you want not have over two star armor. Personally I think this option would suck if your free player, so I would rather keep the current system. I think all we really need to do for CE to lower is switch the price for upgrades to crowns instead of CE and then we will get plenty of people selling more CE.
And honestly, players leaving isn't a bad thing to me..considering 80% of the population are people I am constantly adding to my mute list. People who don't understand there is a auction house or trade channel, or the concept of spam. Most need to read ToS really bad.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:51
#20
Maybe they don't want people
Maybe they don't want people to spend all day holed up, playing a game.
Maybe if you do want to spend all day holed up, they offer the option to buy energy using money or in-game money.
I don't see why anyone would complain about this business model; in fact, this game has one of the best business models as a F2P game. Other games may claim to be F2P, but this game is the truest to that meaning.
In regards to the increase of Mod Calibrators; the items that the Mod Calibrators are used to make are kinda OP'ed and people have been complaining that they devalue UVs and etc. I bet that if they introduced the Mod Calibrator as 100 tokens and dropped it to 75, you would singing a different tune.
In regards to the decrease of the 3-UV ticket; many people did not buy it simply because it was THAT high. Now that it's lowered, people will be more tempted to buy the ticket.
A player-controlled market, admittedly, can and will be bad at times, but all games have a player-controlled market. It makes this game ours.
----
Look, you don't have to use real world money and you don't have to waste your whole day playing a game. Honestly, I love this game, but I really appreciate that they impose limits on the game, whether or not their reasons are for us or for profit.
Since they really don't get enough thanks for this great game that they made, to any Devs or GMs reading this:
Thank you for a perfectly awesome and epic game. Don't let words like these discourage you from continuing spewing out these diamonds of ideas. On any given subject, the people will find a way to complain about it. Although the game could still use some tweaking, just keep doing what you're doing.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:49
#21
@ Globosa
1. lol
2.
@ Globosa
1. lol
2. correct.
I'd also like to mention if there would be something like a costume slot / wep slot / trink slot bought with irl $$$ from free players that end up really liking this game instead of quitting and a free randomized clockworks with small crown gain to accomplish this is perfect.
So the free, low-profit clockworks idea (bad way to get gear) it'd be like a thing for fun that we would do after we did use our mist on the actual clockworks, something for fun that sure beats the advanced training hall X_X better way to train at that. Hell, we can all admit, we like it when a video game consumes our time because without that we get bored .-.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 20:57
#22
I like what Zero said.
And I
I like what Zero said.
And I think a free randomized clockworks that pays is just a bad idea. People would just spam it all day to pay for things, no matter how long it would take them to get it, which ruins the point of OOO trying to make money.
Upgrades bought with RL money is also a bad idea to me because if I were a average free player I would sure want them without having to pay a bunch of cash just to keep them. The point of the game being free to play is to make it convenient enough to where you can play and have fun but inconvenient enough to where it makes you grind a long time to upgrade things and will possibly push you to buy some CE with money.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:01
#23
@ Zerosoul,
please read the
@ Zerosoul,
please read the entire thread before posting (sorry its a big wall of test as said in thread topic)
1. The issue isnt mod calibrators its the intention of updating the game to be harder to play for free than it already is (which is impossible for more than x small amount of time, remember by game we are talking about the main content / only content as in clockworks) a small enough update to not affect the market yet affect our overall crown (another marketting scheme)
2. I almost guarantee (almost) that they intended to make money not give us a video game thats giving us a lesson in life, dont play video games more than an hour a day. they want you to play their game more im sure .-. and make us pay if we want to (read this last line again and think as if you had your mind on money)
3. You cannot technically play the game for free as you cannot actually play the game, only for one hour and blah blah (small amount of time is the point) which is why we were discussing why the game is rated 51 and why we are informing devs with constructive information to bump ratings up to 70 with ease, make it popular, bring old players back, etc etc
4. these are not discouraging words from any of us in this thread. we are after how to bring that score of 51 up higher and bring back our players and make it popular. We are working with OOO because we understand they are after the $$$, as most games are, and we realize this and aren't QQing because CE is terribad. (We are thinking of ways to hook free players, again read the whole thread)
I see with your morals you aren't into playing a video game for hours upon hours or having people play hours upon hours, though some of us like this and video games tend to help us to many things with our time, and facts are facts, we use video games this way and there will always be people that do this.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:07
#24
3. You cannot technically
3. You cannot technically play the game for free as you cannot actually play the game, only for one hour and blah blah (small amount of time is the point) which is why we were discussing why the game is rated 51 and why we are informing devs with constructive information to bump ratings up to 70 with ease, make it popular, bring old players back, etc etc.
Are you seriously saying you cannot play this game for free? Because I am sure there is about 10,000 people who will disagree with you. And a hour being a small amount of time is very up in the air considering it is 1/24 of your day and the amount of crowns you get from that 1/24 will give you enough to play another hour and so on and so on.
I am personally in favor of whatever makes this game harder and longer. I was very against people saying they wanted the Core opened because that just ends the game because there really is nothing else after it. All the game needs right now in my opinion is to release Lockdown because I am pretty bored with beating the hell out of everything in the clockworks, just need my full Gunslinger and I am complete.
Go Nick! Push the big red Lockdown button!
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:09
#25
@code
agreed. It could also
@code
agreed. It could also be no gain from free randomized clockworks, so long as free players can do something instead of use a tank of mist and quit after finding out what they have to do to play again. Also, great to do something in off-hours after using mist (better way to train than training hall) also, i was thinking more on the lines of so small of crown gain that it wouldn't even matter.
And for the upgrades, i agree if they had us start with 3 instead of 2 we could be more versatile as free players with a cost to upgrades beyond that.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:15
#26
@codedisagree, the whole
@code
disagree, the whole point of this thread is not so say ok. yeah, one hour is enough. One hour a day might be 1/24 and a lot of your day to you, but only being limited to that much will get free players to quit.
Also, you cannot just do the clockworks and buy your ce to do it again and again. As a new player, doing t1 is very un-profitable. You are going into debt as you do it with CE, with mist, well, yeah its one hour a day. In t2, the same applies though it is better, even people doing JK runs haven't found it to be enough. New players wont be jumping into t3 right away i guarantee you.
I can also guarantee you if you could, there wouldn't be this many threads complaining about CE.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:23
#27
If free players quit, oh
If free players quit, oh well, CE prices go down. I don't really think free players will quit anyways. This isn't OOO first rodeo. Their other game Puzzle Pirates was extremely popular for a while because there is more to the game than just the clockworks, and by this I mean the social part of the game, and OOO knows this. One they create a very good and fun game, but as you have just started you run out of CE and come back to Haven and say shoot I want to play some more! So you either buy some CE with money or find something else to do. You can go talk to people, use your fun emotes or whatever, try to sell somethings. At the end of the day, maybe you say well I didn't like it and quit, but it seems the majority of people say hey I really liked the people or I really want to play this game again and they come back the next day with full mist and play some more. Do that for a week and your basically set.
I forgot to mention just because your at T1 doesn't mean your stuck on playing time. You can use the crowns you get from your first day to buy low sell high at the auction house, or use the crowns in Blast Network and win more. With Blast Network it is something that is so cheap you can basically play it all day.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:39
#28
@Rawrcake
Okay, one of the few points I can agree on is how hard it is for new players. Although I am a 4* going on 5*, it pains me to see new players are having a difficult time and thus many rage-quit.
One problem is that once they hear what it takes to get to 5* and the all energy that you need for in-between, they often quit or something of that manner.
Though, the point of T1 being so hard to farm is probably because they want them to be more experienced before they get to T2; I know that that prolonged time really helped me prepare for T2.
I've talked to some Devs and GMs over the forums, they really are good people and I believe that they have the players' best interests at heart; anyways it costs money to maintain a game of this calibur.
---
As another note, I would like to apologize of branding this post as something of a bad thing. It's just that I think that changing the major aspects of what defines this game would drastically make this game different. To me and many players, this game is more perfect than it can be.
But really, one doesn't need to play this game for the whole day. You could learn something new in your free-time, like painting or programming (make a game if you feel like it, it's genuinely more fun/"fun" making a game than playing it. I bet the Devs can agree to that.)
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:39
#29
@Code
1. i hear this a ton.
@Code
1. i hear this a ton. when free players quit CE goes down? dont they buy CE not sell it? more people that buy it = more competition for it = more competitive prices. This is one of the issues, players quit - ce price goes up - more players quit
2. Yeah i see where you are going, much more to the game than the clockworks. I think what I am talking about is their content that they based the game on - the clockworks. Yes, you can always go to the advanced training hall, talk to people, use the emote, but it all comes down to the clockworks (might change to the lockdown depending on cost / what it brings). The core of the game that cannot be played by free players for more than an hour a day.
3. for the blast network currently im not sure if there is a big number of players that actually like it, this is more of an opinion though, lockdown should be interesting though.
and finally, if free players quit, it is not oh well, you never want a player to quit. We aren't just thinking on the perspective of ourselves, also the
"The Company
The New Player
The Old Player
The Payer Player
The Free-Player"
(Naruchico)
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:50
#30
@ Zero
"But really, one
@ Zero
"But really, one doesn't need to play this game for the whole day. You could learn something new in your free-time, like painting or programming (make a game if you feel like it, it's genuinely more fun/"fun" making a game than playing it. I bet the Devs can agree to that.)"
The issue is players that may want to play for the range of 1 to 10 hours a day depending totally on who they are, i can guarantee we dont all want to learn painting or programming and some of SK's playerbase aren't quite there yet either :P. What sucks is when i watch someone quit SK because of this (Rage-quit of course, otherwise i wouldn't have known about it :3 ).
As for getting better at the game: a totally randomized "?" mark levelled clockworks that costs nothing, gives you nothing, you cant revive in only return to haven, is a perfect way to do so! Get better in your off-time! get the option to transport to tier 2 / 3 once youve gone through t1, maybe even not have a gear level so players understand what they are getting into and why there is a gear requirement on the normal clockwork tiers! oh the joy!
Also yes, I have heard many good things about the devs, they are people like us and I imagine running a game like this can be harder than most. Imo i would hate to be called OOO all day, like a robot, set out to fill our Need-Bars and Want-Bars, cried at in countless threads for not doing so(sorry for my QQ in this one).
+1 to devs
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:54
#31
1. i hear this a ton. when
1. i hear this a ton. when free players quit CE goes down? dont they buy CE not sell it? more people that buy it = more competition for it = more competitive prices. This is one of the issues, players quit - ce price goes up - more players quit
Yeah this makes no sense, at all. If free players quit, there is less competition to buy CE, which means prices lower. Players quit-CE prices go up? Wait a second, were talking free players right? If a free player quits it is one less person looking to buy CE, which means the price has to lower for it for more people to buy. The market works perfectly for either side. If there is less paying players, there is only more incentive for people to buy CE with real money, because they can buy and sell it very high which will make the prices go back down and then when it is back down, more free players start playing. So yeah, just saying, more free players quitting does not=higher prices, it means lower prices.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:55
#32
If this is a suggestion
If this is a suggestion thread, it really ought to go in the Suggestions section of the forum.
I...I have issues when things aren't in their proper places.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 22:02
#33
its a suggestion / discussion
its a suggestion / discussion mix. i wouldn't want to clog the suggestion forums with a discussion thread...
@ code
1. im not informed enough on how the CE market works on everything, anyway, players quitting isnt where you intend a game to go, new or old, even if the outcome apparently is (not sure if any of us are correct) good (hate saying that).
As i said above, we need to look at this from all perspectives, including all that naruchico said. Not just the one that can benefit.
Anyways night, ill be back on tomorrow.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 22:15
#34
the limiting is sort of
the limiting is sort of annoying. but if you could play unlimited, u'd reach the core really fast, making the game boring. so there has to be some amount of limiting. but, at the moment, it is a little bit to much. sort of. not really. um...
Um...
I DEREN'T NOEZ. MEI DOEN'T LAIKZ CONFRONTATION.
lol.
i dont really mind the mod calibrators going up, since i dont use trinkets anyways. or the uv going up. but some updates r annoying. a lot of times they make updaates without telling us. i cant really give any examples cause i dont remeber any, but im sure a few guys could tell us ome.
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 23:41
#35
Heyo
Ok I keep seeing the same general thing being said over and over. from thread to thread.
General that is this,
"But I like that it --->limits<--- how long you play"
See that highlighted word their: LIMITS
Yet people will also say "this game doesn't --->limit<--- content"
When in fact, game-play is the content of the game, or am I just completely wrong and its all the pretty graphics we stare at in haven?
But putting that aside
I think it is UN-fair to limit us on game-play time for a free-to-"play" game.
I have heard the tier 2, you can break even story a-lot, woohoo for breaking even....then rinse repeat...go in circles....go in circles....this isn't a nascar sim, we would like to make some progress, as well as play the game.
It is easy to set it up where we could continue playing without tweaking the system.
When you run out of energy you make, hey lets kill it rough 1/20 of the crowns, mats, heat, etc.
you can keep diving but you only get a shard of the money.
Say you make 6800 on a 10 level dive with ME, now if you did the same dive while out of ME or CE you get 340 crowns, sounds so bad doesn't it, same exact time spent, same work, barely any cash.
And hey if you don't want to keep playing, log off, no one stops you from logging off.
If we want a game to teach us something then lets turn off economics and turn on something a little more basic
"Self-Control" if you know you play to much, then you should stop yourself, a game shouldn't tell you when to stop, maybe suggest it, but not tell you, Especially one that claims "Free-To-Play".
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 00:29
#36
This game is completely free
This game is completely free to play, within all the parameters you defined, at any and all stages of the game.
If you want to play the game an advance quickly from the beginning, the easiest way to do it is to use all of your Mist on depths, and then wait 22 hours before doing it again. Everyone (who is F2P) has to start out this way, and it doesn't take very long at all to get to Tier 2 with 2* gear. I did it in less than a week, using only mist. This shouldn't be a problem, it's the beginning of the game, and not the major part of the discussion.
If you want to continue playing beyond that, it's easily possible. Once you get to Tier 2 (again, easy), you can do Jelly Palace runs. Even if you start from Moorcraft, if you use all your mist this way, you can afford to buy 100CE, and repeat the process. Sure, you're only making about 1k CR profit this way, but it's F2P. You have the option of using only your Mist if you want to. If you're a smart player, you can get into a guild, add a bunch of friends, and use your Mist on useful depths only, like Arenas and the last two depths of Jelly Palace. There's nothing wrong with continuing this process all the way up to 4* gear and Tier 3. Either you conserve your CR and craft your items quicker, or you play as much as you want for free, and it takes you much longer to get them. you have options.
The end game is a different story. 5* gear is a luxury. It is not needed to get to (or clear) the end boss of the game. Complaining about how long it takes to get the best gear in the game without paying for it is a losing argument. However, once you do have all the gear you need to beat the end-game content (which includes 4* gear, without its 5* equivalent), you don't need to save up for items. At this point, the game is completely free to play, because you can spend your CR on CE as much as you want, running arena, JK, and FSC.
The game is fine as is. Every time I see a topic like this, it comes across as either impatience, or shows a lack of understanding in efficient Mist usage. If you want a solution to the problem, I suggest using the above mentioned method of Arenas and Jelly Palace Depths 15/16.
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 00:52
#37
I could write a wall of text
I could write a wall of text but seeing as Code, Zero and Biomechanika have made all of your arguements invalid...
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 01:07
#38
"The game is fine as is."
"The game is fine as is." Perhaps. Perhaps not. I have played many F2P games recently and while I have found this to be my favorite of all of them, I am getting increasingly annoyed by the regeneration rate of Mist Energy. It has been suggested elsewhere on the forum that players without enough energy be allowed to continue in the Clockworks with penalties like a major decrease in the amount of money/materials they pick up. I think this is reasonable. If somehow this resulted in loss of revenue for OOO, I don't see why they can't find a way to fix that and I'll start by suggesting this: Costumes for money or energy (or both). Every F2P game I have tried with the exception of Spiral Knights has had purely aesthetic items for cash. When I saw the costume slot, I figured right away that there would be an item shop to fill those slots, but there wasn't. In fact, while you can pop any armor in there, there are almost no costume items in the game at all with the exception of the bomber helmets and the 3 special sets from an earlier promotion.
Another option for players who want to continue to play when out of CE: Add a free version of Lockdown with the next update; maybe decrease the chances of "special" rewards and remove the cash payout.
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 01:09
#39
The issue is players that may
The issue is players that may want to play for the range of 1 to 10 hours a day depending totally on who they are
God, I hope people don't actually play the same game for 10 hours a day.
I don't suppose some fully "free to play" Clockworks content would be so bad with heavy restrictions. Tier 1 only, no gaining crowns/mats/heat, all gate icons obscured etc. Technically lets players play forever but keeps enough content out of reach that they are encouraged to actually pay up (with ME or CE). Plus it could double as a more advanced training option than the hall we currently have.
In terms of preference for this business model compared to other F2P models I definitely prefer this one. Sure, it took me a while to build up enough for my 4 star gear (especially as I ended up redoing my armour) and it's going to take me a long while to get that to 5 star, but ultimately with enough time I'll make it. All the important equipment is available to me. All level content is available to me. About the only things that aren't are a few exclusive costumes.
I can't think of another F2P game I've played that can offer me that.
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 02:30
#40
I don't know what people are
I don't know what people are saying about it not being free to play, money and energy are part of the game, Haven and trading are part of the game. I can easily do T1 or T2 from a full mist tank, a T2 run will bring in enough crowns that I could buy CE and do it again, yes I probably would not be making a good profit, but that is probably it, the reviewer seems to think they should be able to do unlimited runs, gaining unlimited Crowns, this would produce hyperinflation and the collapse of the crown. If people want to play for an extended time at the weekend they can craft and sell during the week, and burn CE for the weekend. The game gives you a lot of flexability, for example last night I bought a 5* recipe second hand and turned a 4k cr profit in 20 minutes! That was fun as well, I like the fact that there is more to SK than just doing levels.
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 03:34
#41
"a T2 run will bring in
"a T2 run will bring in enough crowns that I could buy CE and do it again, yes I probably would not be making a good profit, but that is probably it..."
That's the thing though. We both understand that it boils down to efficient energy usage. As soon as you get to tier 2 (which shouldn't be long at all), you should start networking with other players. If you're smart enough, you'll never need to spend another point of energy on a depth other than an arena or a high-profit (boss area) again.
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 07:06
#42
Oy-Vey
they have come again...every-time
this is a game, I shouldn't have to play fuel prices and energy efficiency in a game, if I wanted a real-life economy Sim, I bet I could find one in a jiffy.
Why is it so hard to say "Hey I wouldn't mind having the ability to keep playing, even if I don't get anything?"
Its not like changing it is going to hurt you, and frankly OOO has that stats, they could easily find a fair amount, or hey even if you run out of energy mid-run, they could just get rid of all drops aside from pillz,vials and pods and let you continue, at-least then you could help your group finish.
you keep thinking single-minded about this, complacency doesn't help anyone.
Let me put it this way for you guys.
If they gave you something extra without asking, would you complain?
So far it seems like yes, you would.
We are trying to come up with an Idea to benefit everyone, without hurting OOO, or us, and make both of us happy, and have more fun in total.
Its pretty much sounding like "If you change ANYTHING, the whole things broken"
But really things can change, and you don't have to be afraid its not like OOO ever took an Idea from any of this and did exactly that, they know what would work out, they pay people to figure it out, but its our job as the Spiral Knights Player to inform them of what we would like as-well, other wise they wouldn't add updates, they would stop adding content, and we would all be "hey this is perfect woo!"
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 08:34
#43
I agree with naruchico
You
I agree with naruchico
You people above do not understand some of the things we are talking about, if you could read the entire thread before posting you would understand whats going on and not repeat things that have already been said. With this, im not going to sit and repeat what others have said, im going to have you read the entire thread instead (the problem is not mod calibrators or variant tickers). onto new discussion that has come up.
1. Playing 1 to 10 hours, believe it or not, you will find people that like to play for significantly more than 10 hours. You can't go "oh wow more than 3 hours a day? what a terrible bunch of kids I'd rather not think of them" We aren't asking for your morals, we dont really want them either.
2. bio, you stated "i did this in less than a week," all it takes is a week to make a new player quit. Remember, read the thread, we aren't here to look at this game from all perspectives, most info that has been given is from the "oh i do t2 all the time never have to do anything"
to be honest, a game that limits me to certain boss areas, certain clockworks with arena elevators, has a problem. I do not want to play a game as a new player and think that my only option is to do certain content in the game, abondoning all else just to barely get by, it wouldn't be fun. If i wanted to have strict need of money and make enough to get by and think of then afterwards what ill do for fun, I wouldn't be playing a video game, I'd be living life (Don't tell me to quit playing and start living life, im not talking about my own issues, im thinking about the issues of new players and players that i've known that quit. players other than myself.). And, don't give me your morals, a lot of people play video games to escape real life / get rid of un-needed time that they would otherwise be bored of. I could care less if you have a life, I'm not asking you if you have a life, do not be offended and please dont make another post saying about what you can learn irl in your free-time, keep discussion game-related.
3. I really do not like to hear "oh, go play another game for the rest of the day" Would a dev directly say this to you about their game? Hopefully not, i can bet that OOO would not like to hear this either, that someone will go to another game because they weren't able to play their game just because they were new. They wouldn't like this because if i was someone that would give in one hour to SK a day, and a (ridiculous, not ridiculous, dont make a post saying this is ridiculous) 10 hours in another game, eventually i might just start to forget about SK...
4. You all can say how you can barely get by doing your JK / arena / whatever t2 runs (t3 is not relevant to mention because we aren't discussing experienced players). Though, what i started this thread for, is how OOO made a change in the past to directly nerf the gain in one of the jelly palace levels... now, another one of their updates, increasing the crown cost (Krogmo coin cost will directly increase the crown cost) of two things that are popular, and lower the price of a not very popular thing to butter the following two up. We are not asking for these kind of changes, and i am not QQing that the whole energy system is destroyed not only because i know this wouldn't happen but because i don't think it has to be.
5. The whole free clockworks thing. I would not limit it to tier 1... if you can do x certain tier 2 gate and get by, great! youre also not getting to enjoy a lot of the content just because you are doing x certain tier 2 gate. As stated above, the content is the clockworks, not sitting in haven spamming your little business all day, staring at the pretty haven graphics. Now why you would not limit it to tier 1 is directly because of how in tier 2 you will have to do certain gates to get by, not "oh look, that sounds cool "candlestick keep" hmm im gonna check that out" actually enjoying the content. Because of this, the free clockworks would need to at least be more than tier 1... tier 2 at the least. The reason it should be all tier 1, 2, and 3 is so you can use it to get better. My idea is in the advanced training hall, an npc that would say something like "Welcome to the x and x clockworks, created free of charge to help you train! blah blah blah" (no gain of course) all of it random ? marks so we can enjoy random content. let there be a window of 15 seconds that you can change gear at the beginning incase you get a feind level or something and have a skelly set to test on them. Advanced training hall original would be mainly to teach new players what is in the clockworks, as it already is doing.
Please, again, read the whole thread before posting or you'll accidentally post something like "i think the mod calibrator and variant ticket crown cost increase aren't a big deal"
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 08:41
#44
@ Iprevails
What makes this
@ Iprevails
What makes this F2P game unique is that you CAN get everything. its nice. It's just that if you play for free, you'll have to run off of mist playing only an hour ish a day until you can do that limited x and x content that barely lets you get by and doesn't let you enjoy all of the content. (solution, free training hall clockworks, no gain, randomized, read above for detail)
Part of the reason we were scored as a 51 is that it is tagged as free and isn't anything like other free games. You are hindered to a point that you cannot play, and their perspective is not from the "oh im successful in all my x and x gear, doing this specific x and x gate in tier x and surviving" its from being new to how they would end playing. You can't begin nor end playing for a review of this game due to the only content running off of your mist, and they're not going to give a game a good rating even if you could play but only play certain content with the mindset of living off of your little money constantly...
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 08:42
#45
I can run sub-optimally
I can run sub-optimally through Tier 2 (not choosing gates, 2 revives, no danger rooms), sell some materials at below-market prices, post a lowish trade for CE, and do it all again. I'm sick right now, so this is pretty much all I've been doing for the last two days. I haven't paid a cent to OOO, yet all I did yesterday was play Spiral Knights, funded by the crowns I gained from playing Spiral Knights. Any player can do what I did.
How much more "free to play" do you need?
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 08:48
#46
When you played for the first
When you played for the first week, you obviously didnt just waltz through tier 2 and made money, you ran off of mist. This is getting players to quit. From what it sounds anyway, you are sitting in haven for quite a while getting those mats to sell so you can do it again. And finally, we aren't after your awesome deal you got from mike who likes selling you CE for 3k @ 100. If this is not the case, waiting for your extremely low offer for CE in the market does not count as playing the game. From what it sounds you are sick and not actually playing the game more than you think, though I am not sure, please explain what you are doing that is getting you to survive in t2 any gate even though it is not entirely related to new F2P players, your feedback is always accepted.
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 09:30
#47
OK, while I agree the game is
OK, while I agree the game is not really easy at start (meaning first month of gameplay) because new players usually are exited about the game and would like to use more than just 100 ME a day, I cannot agree about it being unfair.
In 2 months, using ME you can build 5 star set, EZ. Compare to other games, playing for free makes you get endgame stuff after much longer OR not being able to get it since you will need actual cash to get it.
So, I think valid suggestions would be:
-Give new starting players a "Welcome" pack, not only the 100 CE tank, but maybe a "grace" period of 1-2 weeks were they get 200ME a day. Also include a couple of random free low level items. This would get them excited and lets them explore a bit more at the start of the game.
-Provide "No energy" levels, but as mentioned, make the profit from this be very low, this way players that want to keep playing can do it and win a bit more (like 1-2k crowns per 7-level run).
-PvP prizes (lockdown might be a solution) . This way players can gain stuff even if they don't have any CE or ME anymore. Bomberman mode was ok nice since it gives you stuff without using energy "forcefully" but you gotta admit it gets boring after a time since is not really using "spiralknights" gameplay.
-Have some twitter or facebook events that give free items to players (seem to have worked on other games, but be careful with the rules and the number of winners allowed, many people will rage if they dont win, so is better if it's handled as a "participation" prize)
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 09:36
#48
@Dante
It all sounds good to me, that would definitely make a lot of people happier, the no energy levels may have to be cut a bit more than that to keep it balanced, but good suggestions other-wise!
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 10:39
#49
I agree Dante with most,
I agree Dante with most, couple of things like Naruchico mentioned cut lower from 1-2k crowns since that'd be too much, should be maybe 200 if no crowns at all for free clockworks.
Lockdown, i think it should work like the bomb pvp, put in 200 cr and end with nothin if you lose, somethin if you win. Not free and you gain stuff, it wouldn't promote the clockworks enough, too many would spam pvp, and it would be gruesomely full of AFKers.
The grace period for new players may help them, sounds like it would be easier to just give a mist tank a day though, and that might be giving too much to free players, as it just speeds their process too much. The reason ive been jamming this free clockworks thing into our heads is that this may be a second solution, small if not no gain period, way to practice as a new player and enjoy the game. Win-win, we get to enjoy OOO's awesome game, they get to keep getting profit that helps them keep the game going
For what you said about other free games taking longer than 2 months to get good gear, the issue right now is that you have limited play in the actual clockworks content that is the main part of the game, which it gets bad when you stack better profit just selling ce in the market > going down into the clockworks for some if not most players. Other games, you can play for a good chunk of a day and still get that advancement. You want to actually play a game, it isn't just about getting shiny or awesome gear, though yes that is quite a fun and big part of it. You get to have fun playing this sweet game that you are here for in the first place.
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 11:02
#50
Personally I believe the game
Personally I believe the game is perfectly fine it is, all it needs is a few things changed around to help balance out the CE market to around 5k. But the things they can do to the CE market should be minimal at most. As I keep saying, changing the cost of upgrades to crowns every month will sink a lot of crowns and will give people a incentive to sell CE, otherwise the game should stay as it is.
Lockdown sounds like it will be something that people will play just as much as the clockworks and I am very ready for it. Lately I have been pretty bored because I have most of what I want, but if I can actually use my own weapons and armor in Lockdown(which I think it sounds like we can?) I will be very happy, and more driven to get the rest of what I want.
"We don't like how this happened and go into denial saying how it was wrong"
I thought that was from a person who's credibility was in question simply because the review looked like he played for a day, and then got annoyed when he ran out of mist energy and made it to randomly rant about the business model rather than the game.
"Really, this was a correct score because OOO has tagged the game is "free" therefore it is free to play... yet you can't do more than a full tier of clockworks in a day when you start without paying. At that point, you cannot play because you haven't payed."
Really? T1 only has 6ish levels, that's only 60-70 of your mist energy. you get 100 each day. Pretty sure you an get through the other tiers without buying an additional 100 energy as well. Also, it wasn't a correct score, because he did not review the game, he reviewed the business model
"So you have to pay to play."
Or wait another 22 hours. Either way.
"This is why in a free game you put small marketting schemes for business within the game. You don't make the entire game a marketting scheme."
It's called profit. Have you played as a F2P player in TF2 or Champions online? They SEVERELY limit your gameplay until you pay for benefits. At least this game, while it may take a while, it's possible to get every game-important item.
"This is because the player-priced CE is out of hand due to things like power surges and there being too much CE and not enough crown, and of course, it is controlled by players. "
If there was too much CE and not enough crowns, the price of CE would go down. Why? Because People with CE would need more crowns, and would therefore sell more of it to get said crowns, thus raising the value of crowns and sinking the value of energy. You have it backwards.
"The problem here is not wether i get to play or not, because i could care less, i've bought ce and dont mind it. The problem is that new players aren't getting what they deserve, and we are getting looked at in a bad way... and its sad because i dont like saying it and love this game... it is currently what we deserve."
This is true, this game isn't very new-player friendly.
"And now, what happens, the next update is created to take more crown out of the majority of us, buttered up with a significant decrease to the 3 variant ticket which the majority of us do not buy. It makes me feel bad that this has to happen... All im saying is please, if we cant better the game, we need to focus on content updates at the least."
This is where having it backwards is a problem. By making 3-Variant tickets a more viable Crown dump, there will be less crowns, therefore the demand for them will go up and people will sell their CE for them and yadda yadda yadda lower CE prices.
So Really the only problem is how starting out there's not a very good "Here, this is how the game is played and you can have fun if you want to" moment at the beginning and that there wasn't a competent reviewer willing to play the game more than once.