Double post.
Id like to add that Im basically spectating now.
How competition brings out the worst in video games (Or why lockdown is dominated by single loudout and why it won't be fixed)
Wed, 09/28/2011 - 16:03
#52
Double post.
Id like to add
Wed, 09/28/2011 - 21:36
#53
I should get the title of Master Troll for this forum.
I'm just gonna put this simply.
These are issues that have existed since Super Brawl.
They're obviously not going to nerf any of the equipment at this stage if they've left it for over six months to even bother trying.
Also, I find it ironic that the best items for PvE are also the best items for PvP. This is obviously a reflection on how overpowered the gear actually is.
Rather than how skilled you are at using it, anyway.
I remember when Three Rings actually nerfed items. Does anybody else?
Thu, 09/29/2011 - 02:02
#54
I remember making a CTR very
I remember making a CTR very high haze bomb and being very excited when I finally made it into a Shivermist buster, only to have it and all other haze bombs nerfed the very next day.
Nerfing is not a good game design, there are some nice points made (mixed with a whole lot of flaky advices) about 100 pages in an article about balancing a sniper rifle.
http://www.bungie.net/Inside/publications.aspx#pub25279
His point is that you should limit the strengths of the overpowered gear (not simply make it weaker) or simply make everything overpowered to achieve balance. The solution could be to
* buff almost everything else armorwise and weaponwise (don't see this happening, too much work)
* give everything in pvp more natural defenses (applied to the striker jetpack, guardian shield or recon cloak) instead of more health so everything has at least a minimum amount of shadow/pierce protection, perhaps less so in favor of elemental blades or normal blades like leviathan.
* or applying a sword damage reduction penalty for equipping certain swords, cumulative with the ones already on the striker and recon. That last one is still a nerf, but it would only apply in pvp and could be toggled with a simple IF statement.
Thu, 09/29/2011 - 14:15
#55
"Y'know, being a sad loser
"Y'know, being a sad loser with nothing to offer the world and all."
I should get the title of Master Troll for this forum.
@ Shoebox
I do not believe that anything you said in the previous page is troll material.
Again, you're still providing vague points here; you're simply implying that nerfing items is a good thing. My, my, my.
The Chaos set was superb at what it was before. Perhaps it was could be seen as a bit 'overpowered', but did they seriously have to nerf it down to only damage bonus LOW per piece? It's rediculous, and now the Chaos set is almost worthless... What with the negative resistances. So much for nerfs?
Vog and Skolver are ideal sets for PvE, because swords are no doubt the dominant form of combat in the game. That doesn't mean that Vog or Skolver are overpowered; in fact, they've been popular even since before the piercing swords came into existance. Before the sealed sword became available through tokens. What are you implying, now? To nerf those two sets too? Don't tell me you're implying the nerf of all types of swords, too.
The most reasonable way that OOO can go with 'nerfs' is to perhaps split the damage on piercing swords to normal/pierce, as is done with elemental or shadow swords. This would allow more armour the ability to defend against the flourishes, even if only by a little bit. But even this in itself is a stretch, and would be sure to cause some sort of outrage. Out go the whiners for nerfs, in come the whiners for buffs.
Thu, 09/29/2011 - 18:48
#56
Can't people just
enjoy playing regardless and know that some items are just more powerful in the context of PVP? I can't think of a single game out there that has equipment that is balanced for both PVE and PVP.
Thu, 09/29/2011 - 19:21
#57
Completely disagree with
Completely disagree with Shoebox. Any item is as useful as another in PVP where in the clockworks it is based on what type of stratum you are doing. You don't see too many shadow weapons in PVE and they are probably the best weapons in PVP because nobody actually get shadow defense armor.
Thu, 09/29/2011 - 20:13
#58
I have shadow defense armor
I have shadow defense armor that I made for PvE. Deadshot, which has better normal and shadow defense then the Dread Skelly most people have. I take the same amount of hits in it from a Gran Faust as I do in Vog. The issue really is that armor in T3 lockdown doesn't provide enough defense to counter the damage dealt.
~Gwen
Thu, 09/29/2011 - 21:36
#59
@ Gwen
That is actually true
@ Gwen
That is actually true to some context. A Gran Faust or Divine Avenger can kill most strikers in only two hits, regardless of armour. But the exception would have to be a DA vs someone wearing a helmet and armour piece that defends against both normal and elemental (vog, volcanic demo, etc) or a GF versus someone wearing full shadow/normal defense. In fact, I'm not entirely sure how that'd play out; would it make a significant difference?
Nonetheless, it seems the best defensive stat would be health. I see people wearing Ancient helmets and are able to take more hits, even though Ancient Plate Helm only has 3 more HP than other helmets. I could be wrong however, and those individuals wore heart trinkets (which would stack really nicely with the Ancient's health bonus).
Thu, 09/29/2011 - 22:17
#60
In this episode, I restate stuff I said six months ago.
I do not believe that anything you said in the previous page is troll material.
That's because you're being trolled.
you're simply implying that nerfing items is a good thing. My, my, my.
>IMPLYING IMPLYING IMPLYING IMPLYING
The Chaos set was superb at what it was before
You mean being the universal equivalent to the Mad Bomber set?
Yeah how could that possibly be overpowered?
did they seriously have to nerf it down to only damage bonus LOW per piece?
Considering all the other sets that the Owlite line provides have some form of negative drawback and don't offer any damage bonuses at all, yes.
The defences are probably too low, but I imagine if they upped the damage to medium, it would replace Skolver and if they added CTR low, it would replace all the gunner sets (which are a joke anyway). Two things they don't want.
So in order to fix the Chaos Set, they would need to re-evaluate the entire Owlite lines of armor again.
Something which would be a waste of time, at least to preserve the original concept of the Chaos Set.
Vog and Skolver are ideal sets for PvE, because swords are no doubt the dominant form of combat in the game.
Except, that isn't how the game is supposed to be. All three options are supposed to be equal.
That doesn't mean that Vog or Skolver are overpowered
No, it just means that every other set in the game is comparatively underpowered. Except maybe Mad Bomber.
they've been popular even since before the birth of Jesus
Once again, swords, etc.
The only weakness swords had was that they didn't deal piercing damage. Which was barely an issue at all.
Now that they can face pretty much any stratum without blinking, swords are going to remain dominant until they fix the other weapons, or nerf swords.
Simple.
What are you implying, now? To nerf those two sets too? Don't tell me you're implying the nerf of all types of swords, too.
Actually, if you bothered to read: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/26645#comment-154988
I was originally implying that other weapon type's armour needs a buff. Since quite clearly, the majority of people use sword based armour for the bonuses it provides, with no drawbacks.
And obviously, because swords are so goddamn powerful.
But I changed my mind, since you sword users all feel so entitled to be 'the dominant form of combat'.
You should all receive the same horrible nerfs the other two weapon types did.
Because it's plainly obvious that the only people opposing the possible nerfs are sword users.
The issue really is that armor in T3 lockdown doesn't provide enough defense to counter the damage dealt.
Armor not providing enough defense has been an issue since well before Lockdown as well.
Although only a Gran Faust with Damage Bonuses should be able to two hit you.
Try testing it out (if you can) and see if a GF with unbuffed damage can still do it.
Because unbuffed GFs never used to be able two hit people unless they had no Normal Defence as well as no Shadow Defence.
Nerfing is not a good game design
DERPY DERPADERP DERRRRRR DERP
Fri, 09/30/2011 - 22:03
#61
LOL! Have you never met an
LOL!
Have you never met an actual good gunner/bomber, in Lockdown? They aren't THAT underpowered here, boy.
Did you forget that for swords, you actually have to GO UP to the person to hit them? MAN! I NEVER DID! I guess the fact that sword-armour has limited setbacks finally makes sense!
But I guess, to make you happy, we can make comparable Gunner armour (and Gunner armour provides enough bonuses to make an effective gun user. Did someone say Polaris and Callahan?) so a sword user would be unable to effectively take one on.
And I guess we should do the same to bombers, so that they have auto CTR maximum from armour and would be the most OP combatant out there. Dat shivermist, voltaic and stagger, mang.
Considering all the other sets that the Owlite line provides have some form of negative drawback and don't offer any damage bonuses at all, yes.
Divine Veil is probably one of my favourite items to bring into FSC. And Grey Feather is the defensive form of the Owlite sets; shock and fire resist is a great combo coupled with elemental/normal defense. Chaos? Terrible resistances/defences with damage bonus low. I didn't IMPLY (seewhatididthere) that they put it back to DB/CTR medium per piece. But they didn't have to nerf it down to only DB low. Hell, maybe they could even lessen its defences instead of its abilities so you won't cry anymore about it. What I'm IMPLYING here is that there would probably be a less stupid way of coming around this nonsense.
Replace Skolver? Uh. Good luck vs them Flourishes, mang. Better yet, have fun getting status'd to hell in PvE.
But I changed my mind, since you sword users all feel so entitled to be 'the dominant form of combat'.
I love my guns and all of my bombs as much as I love my swords. In fact I haven't been using swords lately in PvE much. It isn't hard to be a good bomber/gunner hybrid.
DERPY DERPADERP DERRRRRR DERP
While I somewhat agree with this notion (I roughly translated that to "I politely disagree with the notion that nerfing is a bad game design"), nerfing is as bad as buffing in different contexts.
or nerf swords.
DOHOHOHOHO U FUNNY MANG LET'S BUFF POLARIS TO DO EVEN MORE DAMAGE AND WIDER BLAST RADIUS HUEHUHEUHUE
And for the record,
"Y'know, being a sad loser with nothing to offer the world and all."
Dat implied trolling. Sounds more like a little butthurt.
------
On a serious note, if you want buffs/nerfs, I can see a few reasonable SMALL buffs. As I've said before, splitting the pierce damage on piercing swords to normal/pierce. Even though that's not entirely a small change, it's something a bit reasonable.
Mon, 10/03/2011 - 16:24
#62
Lol
what is this.
Lol
what is this.
Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:00
#63
Have you never met an actual
Have you never met an actual good gunner/bomber, in Lockdown? They aren't THAT underpowered here, boy.
I don't really have a problem with Bombers. They seem fine.
Except for Bombastic Demo and Volcanic Demo being broken.
They really only have one useable set and it offers a damage bonus with negative resists.
Damage is pretty useless on most bombs.
And gunners have very few useful weapons or related bonuses to be properly effective on their own.
If you put either of them up against a Striker/Sword user they would be outdone pretty much every time.
And I guess we should do the same to bombers, so that they have auto CTR maximum from armour and would be the most OP combatant out there. Dat shivermist, voltaic and stagger, mang.
5-star Helm + Armor + Heat level 10 Bomb = Automatic Maximum.
But they didn't have to nerf it down to only DB low.
Aside from the fact it completely ignores all rationale to have an armor set provide no offensive bonuses then stick DB and CTR Medium on each piece at 5-star.
They could just change it to CTR low and buff it's defenses a little so it is an adequate piece of armour for weapon hybrids.
Hell, maybe they could even lessen its defences instead of its abilities so you won't cry anymore about it.
I never had a problem with the Chaos Set, it just didn't make any sense the way it was.
In fact I haven't been using swords lately in PvE much.
What does PvE have to do with anything? You can use anything in PvE and be successful with it.
The problem is that a lot of gear for PvE doesn't scale well into PvP and it needs to be adjusted.
That's this entire thread.
DOHOHOHOHO U FUNNY MANG LET'S BUFF POLARIS TO DO EVEN MORE DAMAGE AND WIDER BLAST RADIUS HUEHUHEUHUE
Still got those literacy problems, I see.
Sounds more like a little butthurt.
Yeah I'm totally butthurt about how stupid you are.
I think you're just butthurt because you know it's true.
Mon, 10/03/2011 - 19:24
#64
Why are people who agree
Why are people who agree fighting like children...? Guns are really powerful in PvP, though all their armor could use SLIGHT buffs, or at least a couple pieces, as could bombs AFAIK. Defenses in PvP could be altered/buffed or something. Mostly just making it easier to defend against specific types and making some of the fights more prolonged. Although, that may be something they are avoiding for LD. Maybe if an Arena style, actual skill based PvP mode is released, then we will see some type of PvP gear with better defense.
For instance, if anyone has played that "one popular MMO" they have a PvP stat system that would work VERY well in SK. Resilience: lowers damage only from players by X% per point. Helps balance things. People can still use PvE gear in PvP but it has no extra defense, and PvP gear would be slightly weaker offensively or have some other disadvantage in PvE, or they could keep PvP gear only equippable in PvP environments along with PvE gear.
Numerous, TONS of fixes to these problems. Just waiting for OOO to do something, which with their silence lately I hope some big patch is coming (Hopefully with content AND some balance/bug/ENGINE FIXES :P)
Yeah it would, yet these dont...