They are unsurvivable at tier 3, and even tier 2 is extremely difficult. Players are just avoiding the levels as much as possible. They are a cool idea, but please make them a bit easier and more rewarding.
Dear GMs, Candlestick Keep Levels badly need a revision
I've never done T3 Candlestick but if you keep your candles lit and are geared sufficiently, Candlestick Keep should be pretty straightforward. In T2 you can easily sidestep and walk around a lot of the grimalkins, it's very fun. :>
I've been on T3 Candlestick, it's one of the harder levels (for me at least, along with devil drudgery or dark cities), but the good kind of hard, you just need to be careful and don't try to power through (I agree with Providence, pick your fights or when to fight). I think they are fine the way they are right now.
Shadow defense highly recommended here, heh
Note: I can survive them fine by being careful, I find dark cities way harder than these.
Yeah T3 Candlestick Keep is not that bad, there are worse areas to shake your fist at. *Cough*FireThemedFiendlevel*Cough* Though i got to say, those Howlizers are kind of mean in those small ambush rooms.
No, it's fine. Also bring back the old graveyard Phantoms, the current ones are a joke.
They're hard enough to avoid at T3, but I don't think they're overly hard. I can see laggy computers, or people who don't know how to strategically withdraw would have problems..
it's harder in a group than it is solo.
The GMs don't create levels anyway, I think you might want to be grabbing the attention of a Dev.
"it's harder in a group than it is solo."
Indeed. The problem is that one grimalkin spawns for each player, but sometimes grimalkin don't have a problem switching targets, so if someone else fails to kite their specific grimalkin, it can end up hurting you.
I find candlestick solo to be probably one of the most fun if not the most fun level in the game.
"Note: I can survive them fine by being careful, I find dark cities way harder than these."
Dark City is definitely intense. You just need to take one weekend to just sit down and practice Dark City and you can get it down fine. I can fairly reliably solo Dark City now. It is all about knowing the spawn positions - you eliminate two or three enemies before they have a chance to get into any sort of formation, and the encounters become so much easier.
I hate CK levels, but not because they are hard. They aren't, if you pay attention. And I have low Shadow defense. I hate them because I hate gimmicky crap like that in RPGs, especially action RPGs. I want to be fighting the monsters, not scaring them with lights. A special mechanic is cool, like Trojans (That's their name right?) or unique strategies, but when it has nothing to do with my gear or actual skill other than running away or is completely separate from the idea of the rest of the game, it bothers me. But, that's just my 2 cents.
They are unsurvivable at tier 3, and even tier 2 is extremely difficult. Players are just avoiding the levels as much as possible. They are a cool idea, but please make them a bit easier and more rewarding.
If your full 5 star gear and in T3 I think saying any level is actually hard is a reach. Haven't really found a level that is oh my god so hard how will I beat it? I love Candlestick because it is creative and somewhat challenging. It is rather easy if you have things that deal elemental damage and your smart enough to pick and choose where to fight.
Rule of thumb: You give a player a tool, they'll want to use it. When they can't, they get frustrated. Look at every single stealth mission in gaming history - nobody likes them because they give you all those weapons, and then they tell you that you can't use them. We were given weapons and shields, and neither of those tools can be used against the Grimalkins. When someone does try to use them, and fails, they get frustrated. Humans are tool users, and when you give them tools, and then make it so those tools don't work, they get annoyed. Granted, this does not hold true for everyone. Some people like to mix it up a bit, but a significant number of people have this issue.
Now, that being said, that's not my gripe against Candlestick Keep. Sometimes you do need a change of pace in gameplay. My issue is the horrid crown payout. Go through once, see the sights, enjoy the level. But when you go through twice, it starts to get old, and you need something else to entice you. I've had runs through Candlestick Keep that paid less than 200 crowns, after clearing everything. Far less than what it would cost to buy 10 energy, even when the market does dip super-low. Now why would I want to do that level repeatedly, when I could wait for the gate to cycle to an equally fun Arena, and get five to ten times that amount of crowns?
"When someone does try to use them, and fails..."
Then they begin to fear the dark, as they should. The level works well enough to do what it intends to do, the only real issue is that it is hard to tell whose grimalkin is whose, and the fact that they switch causes problems. If only you could see and be attacked by the grimalkin aggro'd on you, I think it would be easier for groups.
"Now why would I want to do that level repeatedly, when I could wait for the gate to cycle to an equally fun Arena, and get five to ten times that amount of crowns?"
Because you don't want to wait - you want to get to the terminal so you can go to the next strata?
Light up the areas and stay in them. Candlestick basically becomes any other level in the game.
Don't let the big ones chomp you because they will go through your shield and will kill you.
They are so slow too and they only come at you one at a time.
I don't see the problem... just run away...
I'm almost always willing to wait for the elevator to change, and most parties I've been in have been perfectly okay with waiting for Candlestick Keep to cycle out. If I'm on Spiral Knights, it's because I have free time. I don't play just before work or anything. Also, don't get me wrong, I don't have problems with Candlestick Keep's gameplay. I'm okay with it, I'm just stating what problems some other people might have with it. I would play Candlestick Keep if they would just up the crown payout to be more in-line with what the other levels pay.
Yeah I don't join terminals with CK levels. I just wanna play and not deal with the gimmick. It;s not hard. It's not complicated. It's just silly and a diversion from the game itself. Now if they made some interesting mechanic where I could kill the Grimalkin, but had to use the candle etc. in some way or they had some weird defense mechanic, whatever, that's cool. I just don't like running from some silly catghost and making him die by throwing a bottle. It's not in the spirit of the prime game mechanics; the reason I have an account and pay for CE.
Again, just clarifying my opinion. :)
@ speetz, so you've never done FSC right? In FSC you're required to use objects in your environment in order to progress forward. Candlestick is the same way. Grimalkin aren't really true monsters. They're just objects in the environment that seek to kill you actively. Can you go bash some floor spikes with your sword? No. You can flip some switches to keep the spikes down possibly, but you can't defeat floor spikes. You just have to get past them and hope they don't kill you.
It's not so bad unless teammates are being a pain.
T3 though, ouchies. Darn kats & howlitzers with their big bullet sprays in the only way away from Grimalkins, and shielding isn't always an option in many parts of those levels... and if you get hit by a status at the wrong time you're dead. Made the mistake of trying a cold Candlestick without a shield.. zzz lockdown bug. Thankfully I had a teammate to res me a half dozen times.
But on T1 they're an interesting change from slimeways, and T2 can be a nice challenge. Maybe I'd enjoy T3 more with a full set of 5* stuff *shrug*. Rewards are definitely lackluster, these levels are harder than arenas. I think it'd be neat if, instead of improving rewards, elevator costs to these levels were reduced to 5.
...when it has nothing to do with my gear or actual skill other than running away...
Sometimes running away is a skill :) One of my favorite games (~15 years ago) was Clock Tower - where the only way to survive is running away from everything
Personally... Stratum 6 Candlestick Keep... Couldn't get anymore fun than it is...
I'm glad to hear it, though. I guess I just need to get better at playing in these rooms cuz i'm awful at them right now.
i kinda agree. i actually just want more profit tho, because 90% of the enemies there: kats, horsedudes, howlitzers are EXTREMELY annoying. no point in subjecting to the risks if the rewards aren't there.
it's a nice scenery change and all, but no more candlesticks for me.
I definitely think the payout could do to go up on the Candlestick levels. It's like, the challenge is 50/50 split between the regular monsters and the grimalkins, but the grimalkins never drop anything so you're left with only half the loot.
i hate candlestick levels. not very rewarding. >.<
Make Candlestick Keep and Graveyards longer, ramp the difficulty up by a fair margin by throwing in more surprises, increase the payout accordingly.
Add more blockades along the way that are either time delayed, or puzzles that need solving.
Have signs that point directly to the exit for players who are not confident, and add side paths for players willing to explore for more profit.
i dont like Candlestick keep at all, thats why i never go there
its not worth the 10 energy spent to do it, but is there really a need to complain about it??? just dont go there, and when its in the elevator screen wait for it to change
u cant expect from Devs to do whatever u desire
Max UVs EQ and can't handle tiny kats?
I can give you a little of my gaming brain for 1Million CE ^_^b
Now, just add the dreaded Bats to the Candlestick keep levels and that'll make everyone happy!!
Oh and I've gotten some good mat drops in t3 and t2 --ghost bells and mugs of misery sells at AH for a lot :)
Candlestick Keep isn't too hard, and remember that the boogyman is only scared off by the light. If you are having trouble with it then the answer, like most areas of the game, is to change your gear. Shadow defense will go a long way towards keeping you alive. As will a Polaris for taking out the Howlitzers from a distance. That said, my only grief is one that's already been mentioned... the payout for the floors are rather lackluster.
@Lanieu
Yes! Add Greavers! Sounds like fun to me. I normally have my FF on me anyways.
~Gwen
I love anything with undead/cats so I would prefer Candlestick to stay the same.
My only pet peeve with candlestick is the mineral/treasure rooms with no candles. It's annoying to have to run away, come back, chop the mineral, run away, come back again, etc. The actuual combat isn't too bad, as long as your allies don't get completely lost. Joining halfway through one of those levels may be hindersome, but starting it with a good party makes an easy buck.
The point of the levels is too be hard..not easy.
Exactaly. But the rooms with the treasure boxes and no enemies are meant to be easy. It's the reward >_>
thats some cough dude
and t3 candlestick is easy just dont be stupid when ya in there and you may even get no hit
sorry but i just need to hear this from other inboxes
HEAR ME OUT HERE FELLOW KNIGHTS
the titan king
boss stages
the titan temple:hall of fame
the titan temple:the stone gate
the titan temple:THE TITAN KING
now the boss will be a giant stone statue with the curse eye
tier 1:carries troika,drops stone pallets as tokens(rare drop troika)
tier 2:carries sealed sword(rare drop sealed sword)
tier 3: carries avenger or faust(rare drop avenger or faust and super rae divine avenger or gran faust)
now he has the same feature as vanaduke free to hit but has trojan moves
he has jelly king features aswell
but less damage from the mini's known as mini titans and some mecha knights as well
PHASE 1:normal stuff just does trojan hit if in front long enough and dashes if far away
PHASE 2:begins to have a glow in his eye and create's stone spikes to make the enemy(you avoid him for sometime they can be destroyed)
PHASE 3:same as phase 2 but with a buff up and 2 swords
so tell me what ya think
Don't post yer arbitrary boss in here <_<
I cant name the number of suggestions that go "he's like vannaduke with a DA and GF LOLOL"
Try looking at vannadukes mechanics instead, determine the most common strategy, and make a boss that you have to fight in a completely new way.
Note: Sorry for bumping this thread, but I don't want to make a new thread about a similar topic when one already exists. I hope that's okay with all of you.
I think the levels have to be altered slightly. The respawn rate for Grimalkins needs to lower a little bit. It's kinda silly that when I pass through one tiny little dark area between the blue candles, one immediately spawns.
I don't think Grimalkins should be killed, but I think there should be a way to slightly push them back if there isn't already a way to do that. Maybe even throwing the fireball at them could give a temporary weak stun.
I think the amount of Grimalkins that appear at a time have to lower for those who are in groups of three or more. Having four Grimalkins appearing on both sides in a thin hallway can be a huge pain. There'd be no way to backtrack so at least one player has to take the hit for the rest to run through. Maybe there should be a way where they all appear on one side to prevent such a trap. It would even encourage and teach the group to backtrack in these levels when they see four Grimalkins heading their way.
I also agree that the payout for these levels have to increase. The devs could add coin paths in the hallways or a couple of treasure boxes in some of the gauntlet areas that can be accessed only AFTER the gauntlet has been defeated.
Finally, I think some of the "blind spots" in some of the safe candle areas (elevators, Group Buttons, etc.) need to be removed. It can get annoying when a teammate just runs into that tiny spot, waits, and gets chomped.
The big reason why I don't really like the keep is because sometimes it can take 4-6 tries to pick up an object. I really don't know why it's so hard to pick up keys or balls of fire or even crystals. I don't think it's lag-related, but the game has a really hard time processing it, especially when button mashing.
So it's pretty much dependent on a mechanic that responds poorly. Or maybe my knight just has hands covered in oil.
Its probably because your button mashing. With item pick ups being server driven, theres a small delay between when you initiate the action and when it executes. Spamming it does cause confusion in the system, and in some cases causes it to restart the sequence from zero.
Sometimes I'm not button mashing though and it's hard to pick up. And the place can get a little crowded and you're being chased around. I just think since it's a vital survival feature in that dungeon it'd be a little nicer if it worked in the heat of the moment.
Candlestick Keep is the next floor? Yea....I'll just sit here and wait for it to change.
It's a pain when your team mates dart ahead of you and have all the grimalkins appear right infront of you...then you're running circles and weaving between 3 giant cats trying to not get hit. Not exactly my idea of fun. Plus I don't think I've ever gotten a decent amount of heat from one of those levels. I have no problem with it when soloing, I still wish the payout was higher though.
I avoid Candlestick in anything above tier 3. In tier 3 I <3 Candlestick.
Definitely harder with more people... Unless you all stick together. Then it's a breeze. :)
Very fun solo, and VERY rewarding in tier 3. :)
I solo candlestick in T2. I'm not sure how well this strategy works in T3.
That said, I used to think that the candlestick keep levels were hard. Then I noticed that you can kite and avoid gremilkin attacks pretty easily. It's a little tricky, but you can also bait the gremilkin into missing an attack. This is how you reverse when being chased down a narrow hallway. Armed with this knowledge, I tried to run a candlestick keep level while lighting as few candles as possible. I found the level easier to play that way.
I also found out why I kept dying. Each candle is pretty well guarded. See a candle and a ember? Chances are howlitzers are going to spawn by them as soon as you enter the area. There are usually zombies and kats that spawn near the candles too, and often times the candles are blocked off by breakable blocks. The result is that you run into a new area, panic and try to light the candle, get hit a bunch of times, pick up the ember, get hit again (and drop the ember,) wait for the ember to resapwn, get bit by the gremlikin, then FINALLY light the candle. This is how the level kills you.
The solution is to expect that you can't light the candle for a while. Whenever you enter a new area, plan to kite that gremlikin for a while as you take out the enemies and break all the obstacles in the way. Once that's done you can light the candle and rest briefly in it's warm glow.
When running in groups, remember that you can distract gremlikins. Have one party member run distraction while everyone else gathers in the light. Move forward once all the gremlkins are busy. The distraction will not work forever as the gremlkins eventually move to a different target, but this will buy the team about 10 - 20 seconds of free reign, and that's usually enough to have them clear out the next area.
I dash right into the Keep if I want to train my personal skills, like kiting and close-quarters hallway combat spacing. I like the challenge Candlestick Keep offers, don't nerf it too much! But those skill-trainings seem to be the only reward I feel from finishing a Keep level. It would be nice if the challenge-reward was better, like if there were extra, completely darkened, candle-less rooms with treasure boxes on narrow paths; there are only a few instances of those.
It would be nice for a notoriously difficult stage to also be notoriously loaded with crowns. When I think of a list of good, rewarding stages off the top of my head, I think "Jelly Farm" near the top of the list, and "Candlestick Keep" far down at rock bottom. I'm also looking at you, Dark City! Until then, both the Undead and Fiend strata are basically griefer ammo for griefing mineral dumpers, and amount to not much else. However, if this is part of the design decision to make undesirable strata themes that the community has to work together to avoid (which is almost hopeless), so be it... But it's incredibly disappointing if this was true. :(
I love CK. I just started playing again and I was actively seeking out gates with high possibilities of CK levels to try them. I really love them, they're fun levels. I can only do T2 though, because of my gear, but I have done both T1 and 2 and love them to pieces. It gets chaotic with all the giant kats running around and chomping at you, but for the most part, you should be able to react in time to know where one is and where its going. I sometimes fake them out and get close so they'll attempt to attack. And when all else fails, I just chill in the light and wait.
When it gets to the part where you light candles, I make sure to grab the flame ball from that room and I carry it until the next room. If there's another to be lit, just need to toss the orb at the candle, if not I just hit the group kats that spawn for some damage.
nice year-plus necro.
I agree with Neo on the part about the spin-around-you-300-degrees-before-attacking-even-if-you-run-away-five-squares part. Everything else doesn't need changing.
Maybe make the levels a bit wider, so you can dodge around Grims? There's nothing worse than having to take a Grimalkin hit because it trapped you in a hallway.
After running a bunch of them in search for black kats, they've become a lot easier. Practice makes perfect- spookats are far more predictable than Devilites (which dodge in random directions); once you get the lunge distance and bullet paths down, they are as pathetically easy as the majority of the enemies in the game. However, CSK needs a payout buff. The heat and crown output is terribly low in comparison to other levels at the same depth, and they are still significantly more difficult (requires some party coordination to not have grimalkins all over the place).
What specifically is hard for you?
I don't really have a problem with them--you just need to learn when to flee and when to fight. You can't power through all the time or the grimalkins will get you. Sometimes you have to run to a light source to get rid of them, then double back to collect your crowns/heat/materials and kill the remaining monsters.