impressive!
Troika line should be improved.
You know... actually... i've been looking at some... stuff... and there are... "charge attacks" that would work well with this... especially the Suda line... i suppose the devs would know what i mean, try making a particular one a bit bigger (Not the actual hitbox) and the extra non-damage space knockdown (No status) + knockback... also.. would it kill you guys to use the... one that makes... one appear used for the 4*?
one that makes...one appear used for the 4*<- didnt get it.
u mean like a knockback shockwave?
sorry, if you didnt get that, then thats that...
2nd page of suggestions? oh no you dont.
BUMP!
TO BEGIN, THIS IS HOW THE SUDARUSKA CHARGE SHOULD WORK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylq6DD_vhjY
(No reason to read the below stuff. The vid sums up my view)
Well, I'm certainly no SK expert, and I'm just beginning to 5* my stuff, but I'm seeing a fatty advantage with the Sealed Sword line over the Troika line. Troika was "better" before the arsenal stations, but due to the ability to change weapons, one can go with stuff that is enemy-specific rather than the "I-Do-Everything-Mediocre" normal damage sword. In light of this, I do feel that OOO/Sega should definitely buff lesser-used weapons (I know they're reviewing the Dual-Damage type weapons, which is great). So my opinions are:
1) Attack Speed Increase
The Sealed Sword has a faster attack speed than the Troika (first swing is ~1/10 second faster, the two swings are about ~3/10 second faster). This little tidbit implies that the Sealed Sword maintains a "decent" DPS even against the foes the sword is weak or neutral against. From this alone, it seems that the Troika-line is outclassed. Thus if the troika should get an attack speed increase, it should match the Sealed Sword
Pros: Increases DPS and makes the second attack less likely to cost you health.
Cons: Removes the feeling of "I'm going to smash a rock into your face." I like the slow swing in the "aesthetic" sense. It portrays "power" and "force." However, I won't complain if the Troika is buffed this way :D
2) Wider Damage Arc
I like this idea. In other words, the damage zone would be greater. Rather than ~180 degree damage zone in front of the player (guessing numbers here), it should be maybe 220 degrees or something.
Pros: Ability to hit more foes is great! Helps you bust out of a corner AND maintains the "heavy" feeling of the Troika.
Cons: Could mess up "precision" swings and bump enemies into allies by accident.
3) Higher Damage
Simply put, increase the damage of the weapon. Make it be the earth-shattering beast it was always meant to be.
Pros: Higher DPS and runs with the theme of "slow and powerful".
Cons: Enemies die faster? Not sure there's a con here. With a strong enough boost, this could actually be a decent alternative to the Sealed Sword.
4) Change Charge Attack
The charge attack feels AWESOME when it hits, but it's clumsy and awkward to successfully do so. Simply put, the charge attack isn't that good. There are a few ideas on how to change it:
[a] Give it a larger AOE (at least for the Sudaruska/Triglav).
[b] Make it a faster swing. Rather than a 5-hour windup, let the pitch come right out at the start.
[c] Higher Damage.
[d] Guaranteed Stun/Freeze.
Of these, I like [a] and [b]. Choice [a] combined with [c] would truly make this an amazing charge attack (see video).
5) Increase Knockback
During either the first or second swing, the knockback is increased.
Pros: Can't hit what isn't near-ya! An increased knockback fits the theme of the sword and protects the swordsman.
Cons: May make the second swing less useful. If there's nothing to hit, the second swing may not be useful at all. This actually leads me to another point...
6) Change the Second Attack
My goodness, what madness is this?! My idea is simple: Replace the second swing with a variation of the charge attack. First swing is normal, but then the knight swings the sword overhead and deals a strong AOE directly in front of him/her. Animation would be the same as the charge, but faster and no dash. The charge attack would remain the same, but just be a stronger attack.
Pros: Larger AOE means more damage. Attack would also provide decent knockback.
Cons: Would require new animations, which means it'll never happen. Ah well.
7) Second Swing May Stun (Kamarin-line)
This should be here, period. Stun kinda bites as it's glitched and occassionally forces an insta-attack out of the telescoping foe, though. Maybe they're doing us a favor by NOT having a chance to stun XD.
These are just a few ideas. IF NOTHING ELSE I HOPE YOU ENJOY MY VIDEO. Take care all, and let's hope some Moderator or person of power listens to our plea!
This is making me want to relevel a troika into a jalovec.... I sold mine to a vendor, but it would be kinda fun to have one slower weapon, and fun times to use! And I totally agree with everything that's been said. For how slow these are, they are SO WEAK.
i agree wit most of what u said, but they should keep the 2nd swing as it is, and put the rocks back into the charge, in my opinion.
If it's really slow, shouldn't it do more damage, if not just as much?
Sir-Dimwit, you are anything but! :D
unfortunately, after some more testing, i have concluded that my previous post was nothing more than lag T_T (Mentally smashes servers for an instant)
But i do have to +1 Dimwits compilation of ideas, good job! ^-^
Sir-Dimwit, funny video :)
1. No. I like the speed of it. As u said it will not look so powerful.
2. Yes.
3. Yes. A little. Just to prevent monsters attack after 25 depth with second swing.
4. Yes.
5. No. Because if it will be increased, second swing will not hit enemy.
6. No. Just imagine every second swing will do overhead hit. It will become boring after one depth.
7. Yes.
Just to clarify, you are suggesting they go and make a non-boss reward just as good as a boss reward? This will make the boss reward seem pathetic. Why would people bother with it if the non-boss rewards are just as good?
Things obtained from bosses are meant to be better.
Non-boss weapons should not be buffed to make them just as good as boss weapons. Boss weapons should not be nerfed to make them just as bad as non-boss weapons.
Thank you again for your comments! It's nice to hear from someone with a dissenting view as it forces me to check my own biases. I apologize for being unclear in my view. I do want the Sudaruska to be a viable alternative to the Divine Avenger, but not necessarily in the way one thinks. I don't mind that the Divine Avenger has a higher DPS in 2 out of 3 cases. My issue is that there are very few (if any) situations where the Sudaruska proves to be a better choice than either the Divine Avenger or Gran Faust.
With that said, I understand your view. Boss weapons carry with them the inherent feeling of "superiority" since they require "extra" work to get in that one must slay a boss to attain them. I'm certainly ok with boss weapons being strong. I'm not ok with it outclassing another weapon almost entirely, though. I don't like the idea of people upgrading a weapon and then realizing "oh...this weapon really doesn't get any better..." and have "wasted" hundreds of Crystal Energy on an item.
Simply put, I'm also not a fan of a single weapon being better than another in all situations except 2 insignificant ones (such as against Gremlins and Wolvers, but the Final Flourish out-shines the Sudaruska in this case as well, so there is still no reason to go Sudaruska). This is not "balance" in my opinion. My definition of balance would be that each item would have a time and a situation where it proves "better" than most other weapons. I understand that such a notion is tricky since this game has about a dozen different weapon trees for each weapon-type, so I don't blame the developers for having the Troika-line be weak. I would just like the weapon to be buffed a little to make it a viable alternative to the Divine Avenger or Gran Faust in some situations.
I suppose I can partially summarize everything here:
TL;DR
I do NOT want to nerf the Divine Avenger/Gran Faust. I simply would like to see a niche that the Sudaruska can fit into. Something that gives the sword a purpose that the DA/GF can't do. I would LOVE a boost in damage to the charge attack (+30-50%) as well as an improved AOE. If that were to happen, the Sudaruska would certainly have its own niche and offer a nice alternative to the GF in cases where a high powered, high knockback hit is needed.
(Bold does not mean I'm angry, it's the TL;DR version of my argument)
Again, thank you for your views Jacktehripper. We certainly have different opinions, but yours are as valid as mine. If you have any other reasons as to why the Troika-line should be unbuffed (aside from it not being a boss-weapon), do feel free to share, good sir!
Take care all and have a nice day!
<3 Troika. I built Triglav, and regret it. Why would I ever use that when I have a Gran Faust and a Divine Avenger? I am sure a ton of fixes have been suggested, but I would prefer:
+20% swing damage. Make it better than a GF/DA for normal damage, as it swings slower.
Increase the reach. Doesn't have to be much, maybe 10-15%, but enough to be noticeable over a GF/DA. The sword is like 30% longer, it should have a longer reach.
+50-60% charge attack damage. The charge attack is so hard to hit with, and the rare occasions when you do, it isn't worth the result. A DA can do something like twice as much damage, with the initial swing and the projectiles. Make the charge attack hurt.
Compared with us, the sword is very big, which should make it hard to swing.
Have you seen Braveheart (I think that is what is was) where the guy tries to knock the other guy out with the massive rock, and fails miserably, then gets knocked out by a tiny rock?
Lots of people think bigger should be better.
If I am given a massive sword almost twice my size, and hold it single handed, I am pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do much with it. If you give me a small sword, then I can move it easier, and do more damage with it.
Perhaps as a compromise, make it so you can also replace your shield and hold the sword with both hands. With this have directional shielding (hold the sword in front of you), and then buff it.
Quite frankly, I don't really see how anyone could think they could do more damage with a sword around twice their size (with a significant portion of the mass at the tip), holding it one handed, than with a smaller sword, with much less at the tip. Additionally, I don't really see how people could swing it easily at all.
Perhaps this sword was made to teach people that lesson? Go for a sword you stand a chance at handling, not the biggest sword you can find (and King Kgromo, being the evil monster he is, is just exploiting those silly people). Bigger is not always better.
Jacktehripper, "Just to clarify, you are suggesting they go and make a non-boss reward just as good as a boss reward? This will make the boss reward seem pathetic. Why would people bother with it if the non-boss rewards are just as good?"
JK is the easiest boss in game, It took less than a minute to turn it into a pudding.
JK run is one of the fastest and profitable runs in game.
Each JK run gain about 5k+ crowns pure profit, tons of heat.
To make Sealed sword u need 20 gems, what mean you need to do about 6-7 runs. 6 x 5 = 30. Damn 30k cr + Boss weapon.
And now try to find recipe u need. It's 4 depths run, unprofitable. And there is no grant in that you will get recipe you need. Also recipe cost more money than you can get from a run for it.
So now question: which one is harder to get?
My opinion is that everything in game must be balanced. As Sir-Dimwit said, each weapon should be great in something.
That all depends on your game style. I haven't played it recently after they made the polyps spawn the minis. Regardless, the snarbolox is still far easier.
As for your comments on getting the crowns. You also get them in normal runs. You also don't need to complete the run to get it. If you die anywhere along the way, you just go back to Haven and keep the crowns. To get the Jelly Gems you need to go and beat the JK. This is typically done from the start of the Jelly Palace, or the terminal. If you die along the way and return to Haven, no tokens.
Also, have you compared these crown and heat drops to other levels?
As for Basil, that only applies to the 2* sword, and the Kamarin. The Triglav Line is a Krogmo reward which just requires farming the Colosseum, as long as you enter, you get a Coin.
Additionally, those recipes you need Basil for, you can buy the 2* of Vatel or buy either sword (the 2* or the Karamin) off Quillion. (i.e. no need to even enter the clockworks, except for crowns).
All you need for those weapons, is farming. You do not need any skill at all, you just need energy and time. This energy can also be a result of time.
For the boss rewards, you actually need skill (or you need to pay heaps of money). You need to go through and beat the boss. If you join late, you get few tokens. If you join near the start, there is a risk of death=pay money or return to haven=no tokens.
The boss itself offers very little reward other than the tokens.
As for 6-7 runs, you should be getting 4 tokens if you are doing the entire run (if not the crowns don't work out). On rare occasions you get 3 or 5. This means it is 4-6 runs. Using your 5k per run, that equates to 20-30k.
An arena can net upwards of 2k. Three arenas give you upwards of 6k. More than a JK run. So, you are saying you get less crowns?
Sure, there are levels which give you very little, but they don't result in you dying (unless you suck or are unlucky). Easy levels = small rewards. Hard levels=good rewards (normally).
So, actual question: Which is harder, not which is more profitable, or which requires more time, but which requires more skill? Farming the game, potentially killing just a few monsters then returning to Haven/farming the collesum, or going through several levels and beating the boss?
Yes, he has a valid point, but I think that should only apply when you obtain the weapons in a similar way. If the weapons require different things, they should not be equal. A million dollar car should not be equal to or outclassed by one that you paid a few thousand for.
I also think you should base it on reality somewhat. Have you tried swinging something twice your size? Have you even tried picking it up?
Swords like these are meant to be used 2 handed. This means no shield for you. But in the game, you still have a shield, and are swinging it one handed.
About your previous post, we are not asking of making this sword faster or something that could make it "easy to use sword". We are asking for fair damage.
Yes its hard to hit with a heavy sword in real life with one hand. But if your hit reaches enemy, it's destroys it.
Arenas before Basil are half profitable than arenas after basil. So money you gain in runs for recipe just covering your CE spending on elevator.
As for 6-7 runs. I took 6 as normal one, because mostly one run giving 3 tokens, 5 is too rare.
About King Krogmo.. you making me laugh with that "reason". Lets check Electron Vortex or maybe Voltaic Tempest?
Excuse me but I'm not willing to discuss with you anymore. I don't see sufficient game experience in most of your arguments.
Thank you yet again Jacktehripper! I gain new perspectives from your posts every time!
Shall we continue our comparison, then?
I'm definitely coming around to your idea of "If the weapons require different things, they should not be equal." I'm alright with how the Divine Avenger and Gran Faust are. They are "tricky" to get and require not have a Steam Authentication error slap you on the elevator ride down, so let them be strong and useful. My "plea" only is to "balance" the Sudaruska so that it isn't completely ecclipsed by the DA/GF. Make it have 1 aspect that's better XD. I want to see a better charge. I would be a stop being a F2P player if it meant boosting the Sudaruska's charge XD.
Oh and for good measures: "Regardless, the snarbolox is still far easier." I've come closer to death from the Snarbolax than the JK XD. But that DEFINITELY says more about me than the bosses ;) Snarby is easier, I'm just bad at it XD
"Also, have you compared these crown and heat drops to other levels?"
I can honestly say...no. One can make 3K+ from the two JK levels, but I haven't tracked the monetary boons of the levels on depths 14-17. I usually only play with Mist Energy, so I'm quite conservative on my sojourns.
I applaud your input Jacktehripper. I may update some things in my posts to reflect your input to present an argument from "the other side".
Have a good one, all!
I don't think "boss weapons" were ever meant to be stronger than other weapons. It's just another way of obtaining stuff.
(Also: More Newbie-Friendly. No matter how bad you play and how little you know about the game, you will eventually end up with a sealed sword... even if you just join people you met by "random friend request" - JK is the most played T2 stratum and most random teams beat them even with a 4th player that doesn't do anything except die and eat away all at capsules. After that it's only a matter of standing around in front of the AH and screaming "how i ugrade me sord!?????22" until someone shoves an overpriced avenger recipe that's been lying in his inventory for 2 weeks up your... inventory :P)
Also its an entirely other niche than sealed 5* swords: Theres no need discussing. Troika needs more juice. Don't bother to deny it unless you took a 5* troika, DVS and Calibur trough all sorts of T3 strata a couple of times and tried it for yourself. The second half, after basil. With the entirely wrong sealed sword (e.g. DA in decon zone or GF in dark city) you're usually still better of than with the corresponding "allround / normal dmg" weapon. ;)
Actually, it depends on how you hit the enemy. If you have a small sword that you can swing very quickly and with significant force, that will deal more damage than a massive sword that you can barely hold, where you will swing it slowly and with minor force.
You clearly have not tried this, to see just how it actually works.
As for runs before Basil, they should be factored out of the equation, as firstly, you can get the sword or recipe off Quillion or Vatel. Secondly going to the JK requires you to go past Basil anyway. Thirdly there is nothing stopping you going further in. If you want to compare the runs, compare from the start of the JK, i.e. the Royal Jelly Palace.
As for the ammount of tokens, that varies depending on where you start the run. So where abouts do you normally start your JK run?
What about King Krogmo is making you laugh?
Rather than just make pathetic ad homimems, how about you try and actually put together a reasoned argument.
I do have game experience, significant amounts. Although admittedly I haven't played T3 a lot nor PvP, I have played T1 and T2 quite a bit, including the bosses.
Additionally, most of the arguments do not need significant game experience.
I don't see a lot of rationality in your responses, so should I stop trying to reason with you?
And it is better, against the gremlins and beasts, which is the weakness of the DA.
And yes, with a dodgy connection the snarbolox can be near impossible, due to the timing of the bell. However it can be beaten in proto gear.
If you do get around to comparing the money drops, also compare the difficulty.
Ufana, do you have any reason as to why boss weapons shouldn't be better than non-boss weapons?
As for T3, why is that? If you are dealing more damage with the other sword, shouldn't it be better?
I do have game experience, significant amounts. Although admittedly I haven't played T3 a lot nor PvP, I have played T1 and T2 quite a bit, including the bosses.
Sorry, that is not really "significant amounts of game experience". Having done countless fsc and other T3 runs + Shadow Lair runs while using (or witnessing) mmmmh... 30+ different pieces of 5* equipment (regularly) - in guild lockdown too - is "significant amounts of game experience" when it comes to weapon balancing at least.
As to answer the questions: boss weapons shouldn't be better than other weapons because they are easy to obtain (there isn't actually anything in the game that isn't easy to obtain, unless you're talking rare UV's or accessories)... everyone has the choice between all weapons and making few of them better or worse than others just reduces the variety (amount of game content ;)) of stuff people can (or are willing to) use. Unless when it comes to nerf runs. A nerf run with 5* troika + full ancient plate can be fun, but that's not the point of balancing. OOO can start adding real "fun/nerf equipment" (and MARK it as such :P) when the "plain bad design equipment" is all fixed and that's far from done ^^
+ the other question: (why is troika line - often - even worse than the "wrong" sealed sword)
1) It doesn't do so much more dmg. That just doesn't do the job if you keep loosing HP (often) while swinging that thing.
2) It is slower = you get hit more and die.
3) It does not interrupt mobs that are about to hit you = you get hit a lot more and die a lot more.
4) No useful charge attack to safe your ass if you get surrounded (DA knockback) or can't handle the healers (GF curse)... in fact...:
5) Unless you are playing in a location you are WAY overskilled / overequipped for, the charge is a pretty reliant way to commit suicide no matter what you do with it.
Thanks Ufana for your message!
Bad for me that I don't have so much patience, and delicacy is not about me too. hehe^^
I disagree completely with the OP. Saying the troika line should be improved to the same level as a DA or GF is like saying the calibur line should be up to par with an elemental brandish line or Acheron. It does less damage because it hits everything for a significant amount of damage whereas a DA or GF wouldn't. There's honestly no point in carrying around a normal type weapon unless you're short on weapon slots. Keep the troika where it's at. It makes a good sidearm for gunners or bombers due to the knockback. Better than a calibur charge in my opinion. But that's really all it's good for.
Edit: I don't know the mechanics behind its damage or attack speed, but if those are weaker than a calibur being compared to an Acheron or elemental brandish, then I agree. It should be buffed. However, you would need to supply data tests for this.
Exileddread, check post #74, and then closely read all tread please.
There is a lot of information, some tests too.
That's not the information I'm talking about. I'm talking numbers. If you can prove that the usefulness of a 5* Sudaruska compared to a DA or GF is far inferior to a 5* Leviathan compared to a Voltedge/Acheron, then you would have me convinced.
Exclude the charges from the data because charges are situational. You should have evidence that you've done research before claiming something needs buffed or nerfed. It'll make your argument valid.
Let me get this straight, simply because you have more experience, I do not have significant amounts of game experience? How elitist of you.
If everything is easy to obtain, then nothing is, as easy is a relative term. As some things are harder to obtain than others, not everything is easy to obtain. Some are hard. Sure, it might be easy compared to a different game, but in the realm of SK, some are easy, some are hard.
It is easy to obtain the calibur line and cobalt lines, and hard to obtain the Sealed sword line.
1. Yet it does more damage, and thus kills things faster.
2. It is a slow sword, if you think this is a valid complaint go use a striker. It also does more DPS than the DA in this case.
3. As far as I was aware, the DA only did this on it's second hit, which still leaves you fairly vulnerable.
4. Not a valid argument. If you were surrounded you wouldn't be able to do a charged attack.
5. So don't use the charge attack. Also see my post about it being a massive sword that you shouldn't be able to wield easily at all.
And as a final comment, if you really think all weapons are obtained with the same ease, then what is the problem? If each weapon is just as easy to obtain, people should go and get the good one, rather than the bad one, or should all weapons be exactly the same, so it is purely cosmetic, or just have a few different types, but otherwise make it purely cosmetic.
Howdy! I'm very glad that you're interested in numbers rather than subjective opinions! If this game were balanced on opinions, then there'd be no game left, in the end :D So, if I may perform a plug, I have presented some arguments concerning the "weakness" of the Troika-line. I've done what I can to remain minimally biased, but I can make no promises as to how I have actually behaved and portrayed "data" in that thread (I read my posts subjectively, and am thus an unreliable 'witness'). I welcome you to read over the thread and if you care, offer your opinions and/or insights either here or there.
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/36541
I like your idea of comparing the Leviathan Blade to the Archeon/Glacius/etc. I have minimal experience with both swords, but perhaps someone would be kind enough to do some comparisons :D
And you're right on the issue concerning charged attacks. The only "data" we have that's not particularly subjective is damage output and knockback. Most everything else (that I can think of) becomes quite subjective. Just today, I found some use for the Sudaruska charge in a T2 arena (it works well for kiting, at times), but it does have inherent flaws in my opinion. The attack itself leaves the user very open as it lunges him/her forward (similar, in theory, to the Final Flourish charge, I believe) and leaves the player there for a few moments. Thus foes that are to the side get free pickings at the user. Of course, skill would make sure such scenarios are uncommon, but this leads to the issue of a awkward hitbox for the Sudaruska's charge (observation, not fact). But then again, these are simply my opinions.
Take care and have a nice weekend!
That's some good information Sir-Dimwit. Now to see if the Sudaruska needs any buffs. To do this, someone would need to get the DPS of a Leviathan and 5* Brandish. If you get the percentage of how much less damage a Sudaruska does compared to a DA or GF and compare that to how much less a Leviathan does compared to a 5* Brandish, you will be able to effectively compare the balance of normal type swords.
The percentages should be nearly the same if the damage is balanced.
Sorry if this was confusing. I'm on my phone so it's difficult to elaborate.
Exileddread, I made it for you, only because I understand how it's hard to open wiki page and check some info.
Leviathan:
Hit 1 and 2 do 203
Hit 3 do 258
Charged attack do 3 spins, every spin do 368 damage + biggest knock back in game.
Total charged attack power 1104 damage (if you know how to you it).
Acheron:
Hit 1 and 2 do 203
Hit 3 do 292
Charged attack do 531 + up to 3 forward explosions.
Total charged attack power 882 (if you're lucky and all monsters stand in line forward to you).
Leviathan is the easiest to obtain weapon in game, and most useful also.
None of that swords have a chance (that not depends on your skills) to make you dead.
I'm tired.. I think we all interested to make this game better, and that is stupid that I have to prove to those "individual opinion guys" something that they could to understand by themselves. Most of negative post about this suggestion is just a demonstration of incompetence.
If you guys really want to say something here, please, make the base of information first and then try to play with both sword lines in T3. I'm not talking about how good this swords in T2, Im talking about T3 version. Because the unfair cons of this sword line most noticeable in T3.
What about me.
I have soloed FSC (from 24 to 27 depth) without die in next equipment:
Proto Gear + Omega Shell + Divine Avenger ASI Very High
Proto Gear + Barb Shield + 2 Med Damage Trinkets + Sudaruska ASI Very High (Damage trinkets and Barb shield was added to minimize difference in damage to undeads between swords, DA still do more damage, but I'm not about it)
And the only one thing annoying me in run with Sudaruska - second swing do not prevent monster's attack after 25 depth.
Sorry, my English isn't perfect.
Let me get this straight, simply because you have more experience, I do not have significant amounts of game experience? How elitist of you.
Nope, Jacktehripper, there is entirely no causal connection between those two statements. Me being a lot more experienced AND you having given us more than enough of an impression only enables me to build an elaborate opinion about your game experience which is that you do indeed not have significant amounts of it. An elitist way of saying the same thing would be: "lol noob you have no idea you talk garbage gtfo". And I don't say things like that, because that would be very rude. And I'm not rude.
Bad for me that I don't have so much patience, and delicacy is not about me too. hehe^^
Jupp, Ewbte, I think I'm starting to see how you got there xD
That's some good information Sir-Dimwit. Now to see if the Sudaruska needs any buffs. To do this, someone would need to get the DPS of a Leviathan and 5* Brandish. If you get the percentage of how much less damage a Sudaruska does compared to a DA or GF and compare that to how much less a Leviathan does compared to a 5* Brandish, you will be able to effectively compare the balance of normal type swords.
That does not sum up the overall "power" of those weapons. You would have to introduce several control variables such as "average hp loss while using the weapons", "possible reduction or increase of team DPS" for all mob types and differently skilled players / teams + combinations of weapons and many many more things. We can't do that. Not in a year if we want to do it for real. So we'll have to trust the next best thing we have, which in my opinion isn't the few numbers we have (which could easily give us everything, a false positive, a false negative, false confidence, a potato... and we wouldn't know the difference) but: Combined personal / subjective experienced of many "veterans".
Just one hypothetical situations: A vortex with 5 slack walkers in it. If you hit it twice with a sudaruska, the zombies just hit back unless your have maximum ASI AND/OR excellent timing / teamwork. With a DA (in lower tiers at least, GF works fine too... someone in the mood to try that in fsc?), medium ASI is enough and the zombies get interrupted. That too means, another teammate (or you yourself) can get another combo in, crushing all 5 slacks. They won't spit fire in the next "round", noone will run into spikes trying to dodge, the trojan won't stun the poor guy that chose to wear grey feather set and the team won't wipe because everyone's laughing while he's trying to avoid getting eaten by zombies that now move twice as fast as he can. Ok, think I went a little overboard with the last one, but I guess you see what I mean? :D
Exileddread, I made it for you, only because I understand how it's hard to open wiki page and check some info.
Leviathan:
Hit 1 and 2 do 203
Hit 3 do 258
Charged attack do 3 spins, every spin do 368 damage + biggest knock back in game.
"Total charged attack power 1104 damage (if you know how to you it).
Acheron:
Hit 1 and 2 do 203
Hit 3 do 292
Charged attack do 531 + up to 3 forward explosions.
Total charged attack power 882 (if you're lucky and all monsters stand in line forward to you).
Leviathan is the easiest to obtain weapon in game, and most useful also.
None of that swords have a chance (that not depends on your skills) to make you dead.
I'm tired.. I think we all interested to make this game better, and that is stupid that I have to prove to those "individual opinion guys" something that they could to understand by themselves. Most of negative post about this suggestion is just a demonstration of incompetence.
If you guys really want to say something here, please, make the base of information first and then try to play with both sword lines in T3. I'm not talking about how good this swords in T2, Im talking about T3 version. Because the unfair cons of this sword line most noticeable in T3.
What about me.
I have soloed FSC (from 24 to 27 depth) without die in next equipment:
Proto Gear + Omega Shell + Divine Avenger ASI Very High
Proto Gear + Barb Shield + 2 Med Damage Trinkets + Sudaruska ASI Very High (Damage trinkets and Barb shield was added to minimize difference in damage to undeads between swords, DA still do more damage, but I'm not about it)
And the only one thing annoying me in run with Sudaruska - second swing do not prevent monster's attack after 25 depth.
Sorry, my English isn't perfect."
@Ewbte
It seems you misunderstand what I'm saying. Also, by the first line in that it seems you're taking offense to what I'm saying. You've listed hits, sure, but that isn't damage per second. DPS is what you need to see exactly if something needs a buff or not by comparing it to other normal weapons.
Also, the only page on the wiki that lists some DPS numbers is by Lancer Knightz. Don't tell me I'm too lazy to read the Wiki because I've been looking at it for a very, very long time. This isn't my thread, thus I shouldn't be the one to crunch the numbers. Before you respond, look into my past posts a little more. By doing what I say, the OP may actually be able to get somewhere with this thread. Who knows, maybe OOO are running these tests themselves, maybe not. The fact is that simply looking at how much the first or second swing hits for isn't enough. There are more factors than that like how long it takes to swing, how many monsters you can hit at once, and what bonuses you had when you recorded the data.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lancer_Knightz_%28Guild%29/Data
This may be my last post here because people like Ewbte keep telling me to look at pointless information and insisting they're right. If you look at the DPS numbers above, you can clearly see that Acheron and the 5* brandishes out-DPS a Leviathan in every way except for monsters that are resistant to them. This will most likely be the same case for a Sudaruska compared to a DA or GF, which it should be.
Thank you for commenting again! I, unfortunately, cannot test the Leviathan blad versus the 5* Brandish weapons due to not owning said items. However, ASSUMING that their attack speed is equivalent (I have no evidence to show it is or isn't true), against "neutral" foes the DPS seems fairly stable across all stratum for the first 2 swings. Thus, shield-cancel DPS will probably be close enough to call the weapons "similar/same" in this regard (this is just and "educated" guess. I have no numbers aside from the tables in the Wiki).
However, swing 3 against neutral foes does hurt ~34 more for the Brandish, but the third swing comes up once every...well, three swings, so it's "infrequent" in a sense and would only alter the DPS by about ~20 points, if I had to guess (Yes, this is a guess. No evidence, so it cannot be held comfortably as "evidence", if you will).
And I suppose it goes without saying that the Brandish will have the advantage over the Leviathan Blade versus the foes the weapon is strong against, as by design. If a split weapon didn't do more damage versus it's "advantage", then something would be wrong XD.
The final point is charged attack, but this is subjective in my opinion. The Brandish is capable of doing at most 765 if the charge attack and 2 explosions hit (The wiki claims there's a rare 3rd explosion, but I'll pass on considering that as it's a bit of an anomaly). The Leviathan Blade can perform at most 1104 damage if all 3 hits were to connect, or 736 if only 2 were to connect. Thus the charges (purely in respect to potential damage) seem fairly "even". However, this is taken against a single foe. In both cases, there are certainly times where multiple foes can be hit, so it comes down to a preference of which weapon to use. Leviathan would probably work well in an arena setting where the knights tend to be easily surrounded and there are gun puppies/colonies to get 3 hits on with a charged attack. The Brandish, with it's forward exploding attack, will work well in a place that's open and the enemies are "easily" clustered in front of the knight. The charged attacks are sufficiently different that I feel each has a nice niche that they work well with.
In short, my preliminary observations (no experience, no hard-data) lead me to feel that the Leviathan blade may be a tad bit "weaker" (in DPS) than the Brandish, but they each seem to have a niche attack capable of similar amounts of damage that really makes either weapon a matter of preference. This is my opinion from pure observations and the Levi/5*Brandish wiki pages.
Now, in regards to the Troika and DA, the charged attacks are not dissimilar enough to warrant a special "niche" for the Troika. Whatever the Troika can hit, the DA's magic-arrow-sword-bookmark things can hit as well. Yes, the Troika will potentially do more damage (if the foes are all clumped together), but the DA charge keeps the knight out of range and will certainly do respectible damage. Also, foes that are approaching the knight rapidly (such as mecha knights) will be knocked back with the DA's first swing and then hit by the arrow things, so the knight is kept out of "danger". The Troika, on the other hand, has a "long" (subjective) wind-up and a slow (subjective) "pitch" during which the mecha knight can perform it's attacks. So health tends to be a knight's payment to use a charged attack. (Also
In short, Against close foes, the DA performs better (in my opinion) than the Troika. Against medium-range foes, the magic arrows keep the knight out of range and perform moderate damage that doesn't require much "skill" or "aim" (in my opinion. Yes, everything requires a level of skill, but this is sort of aim towards the cluster of foes and release). The Troika lunges into the fray and often will miss some foes that are behind foes being hit (much like how a bomb will destroy a box and leave the one behind it without damage), making the knight very vulnerable. I will also add that the "swing" part of a DA will do well over 100 damage more than Sudaruska's charge hit against neutral foes (which doesn't make sense aesthetically since it's just a swing while the Sudaruska shatters the ground XD).
If ANYTHING, I want a Suda charge buff. I'm fine with the DPS as it is -- as you said, it is DEFINITELY a bomber's/gunner's friend in diverse levels! (I'm a bomber, so I know :D ) However, the charge just seems so lacking...I usually only use it in conjunction with Vortexes, which is LOADS of fun :D
Again, these are my opinions and you are welcome to accept them or leave them.
Thank you very much for your time and input! I apologize for the wordiness of my views. Take care everyone!
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EDIT: Exileddread, that page is SEXY! Thanks for it!
Hey Sir-Dimwit. I agree with you. The Troika line charge should probably get a buff. Glad you could make use of that page. ^_^
Sorry, I didn't see you quote me. Actually, the numbers is what matters here. I'm simply trying to say that if a Sudaruska's DPS compared to a GF/DA is lagging behind a Leviathan's DPS compared to a Voltedge/Acheron, then it should be buffed. Nobody has proven this yet. Mechanics like "average HP loss" revolve around player skill, not the way the weapon works. Sure, some weapons are safer to use than others, but safety can be negated by player skill. If games revolve around subjective opinions by veterans, then there would be imbalances all over the place. Take several other MMOs out there. I'm not comparing Spiral Knights to other MMOs, just the way damage works. Basing a game around actual numbers is the way for balance; not subjective opinions.
I see what you mean about not staggering mobs with its second swing. This issue lies within the amount of damage a monster must take before staggering, not within the weapon itself. Good timing can make this a non-issue, though.
I think that is only partly true. The plain "possible DPS" isn't the biggest problem of the troika line in my opinion. One can *almost* keep up with a sealed sword (against neutral enemies) when wielding a troika and easily outclass a Levi (when there's proper crowd control)... but you need to play pretty reckless to do so. In mots of the cases, I know I'll get hit if I want to get the second strike into that group of mobs (and that I wouldn't with a GF / DA)... you can do that anyway if there's enough hearts / capsules around and you're with a good team. That doesn't make the weapons equally strong.
Also, when using Troika that recklessly, you often get interrupted after the first strike already. Same Situation with GF/DA, you can possibly even get in two full combos = more than 4 times the damage, before you have to take a step back & dodge (if the mobs even still stand;)). The numbers you'll get by comparing the non-situational DPS are the absolute most "optimistic" comparison. The absolute most "pessimistic" ones are at a maximum of about 1 5th of the dmg a sealed sword does in the same situation. The real thing should be somewhere in between...
When it comes to 3-hitters, you're not usually supposed to fight that way. They are more like... "duelling weapons" with a charge that helps getting rid of mobs trying to join in on the 1on1 (like freeze them, knock them away, let them burn ;)). Those swords are all "sort of dangerous" if you're out for max DPS, so there's not thaaat big of a difference between the brandish and the levi line. Also Levi has simply just proven quite valuable in various niches and Troika hasn't. Did you ever hear someone say something like: "omg I need that uv ctr med Sudaruska as a sidearm for ultimate fsc!"? xD
Maybe some contest-type of "study" would be the best way to really compare those weapons. Like see how fast experienced teams can clean specific rooms (e.g. last room in fsc... or last room before JK, can't think of better ones atm) when they are allowed to use only the swords in question (and all guns/bombs/armor they like)... not sure. It's not easy ;)
Interesting arguements, but I must say, they are all very opinionated. What I want to talk about is more, the lore of the weapons as such and how they could possibly be adjusted to fit the weapons unique personality. ( I would like to note that I have had no experience using the GF and any 3*+ troika line weapons, but I have SEEN them used, so if my information is wrong, please don't be too judgemental.)
Troika(Purely for set-up understanding.):- A plain of heavy piece of metal. Probably gonna crack some skulls and cause some serious damage so we would expect some stun and knockback, and from my experiences, it does provide this for a T1 expedition. No real need for any changes.
Firstly the Sealed Sword series:- The name suggests to me that this weapon has some sort of untapped pontential and it hums with raw power. Seems to fit the bill to me. It eventually becomes one of two amazing swords that have no equal (which seems to fit the lore of being very rare and powerful) but they are now too generic as every knight and his snipe has one. For heavy swords there is no other real alternative, which is, in my opinion, limiting of possible arsenals of equal strength.
Secondly the Kamarin:- The description suggests to me that this weapon was designed for one thing. Bashing away enemies and giving them a giant headache. The weapon as it is at the moment doesn't quite live up to its expectation. You would expect ANY kind of hit from this would cause stun status and some knockback. Why is it then that it only really does this on its charge attack for stun and both charge and 2nd swing for the real knockback. Yes it would be redundant to have the sword smack opponents away on the first swing so they can't be hit again, so maybe it shouldn't deal too much then. But surely, what appears to be, a 200 odd kg piece of metal could so something. Perhaps an adjustment on the attack animation as suggested previously for the second swing to a fast overhead smash using momentum, and make the charge have a faster recovery. Sure it's a heavy weapon, but since when could I not drag a sword with me if it's too heavy.
Thirdly the Grintovec:- Same sort of stuff as the Kamarin except replace "stun" with freeze in some cases. Last time I checked, a glacier is a flowing chunk of ice (Or something like that). And in this swords case, a big one. Maybe the charge can have and icey expulsion from the blade? Double the AoE and make it more of a V shaped cone or a horizontal line that causes status. This could become more advanced in the 4* and 5* versions which I will cover with some ideas.
Fourthly the Jalovec:- Now its changed from a glacier to an avalanche of pain. Now would be the time to add just a bit more spunk to its charge with a small bundle of snow to follow the origonal idea and form a sort of "2nd hit" much like the projectile of the DA lines except in a bomb style radius fall. Naturally it wouldn't break already frozen monsters/people and it would add more worth to an upgraded weapon. Much better then the current little blue circle that happens with its minature radius.
Fifthly the Triglav:- So now we are dropping mountains? For how much damage? Strange isn't it? Time for another upgrade on the charge with a final 3rd part of erupting some ice beneath enemies feet. Out with the graphical and in with the practical. An iceburg sunk the titanic, but it can't hurt a monster/player. With the Sealed Sword line we got to see improvements along the way with the charge. First a random effect. Then a blade of raw energy. Finally a group of/larger blades/blade that decimate foes in their path. If we want to improve these swords, and make them more useful, make a practical charge attack. Keep them with their respective lores. Lets see a glacier flow, an avalanche cascade on an enemies head and see momentum drive a mountain up the whazoo of anyone foolish enough to stand in its path.
Finally the Khorvod and Sudaruska:- Blunt force trauma and enough force to send rocks flying out of the ground and yet these weapons have poor damage output and a terrible charge that just is not worth the effort. Levi blade has better DPS in any situation. Lets make these weapons usable. Overhead swing attack with random stones flying out sounds fun. Or a super heavy charge that can uproot one massive piercing stone?
Getting tired now. Just made a Grintovec for the lols. Feel free to critacise anything I have said. Basically what I would like is this. Make the Triglav line have a good charge attack and make the Sudaruska line more about the dance of swinging ones sword around. Make things fly with the sheer heft of the blades.
Thanks for reading it if you did.
yeah... guess ill just bump this......
Out of personal experience, all i want to say is that the Troika series NEEDS an upgrade. So yeah, that's +1.
ive got a different idea for the troika charge, see if you like it:
instead of the rocks, when there would be a shockwave after the swing (yellow if stun line, blue if frost line) shaped more or less like a zombies breath, but like behaving like a wave, not a cloud,(range gets farther with star level) that deals knockback, some low damage when it hits( can hit up to 3x if the opponent is dragged all the way to the end by knockback), and status effect. possibility of the target getting hit by both the swing and the shockwave .
so?
i would like to see a few more branches of this sword. meaning a few more status based ones, say a poison one.
One thing that is really grating is people suggesting that because the sealed sword is boss prize, it needs to be vastly superior to every other sword. Like, REALLY? That must explain why people say the snarble barb is so much better than the flourish on here oh wait, NO ONE SAYS THAT! One sword should not be so vastly superior to the other because first off it's not fair to new people playing lockdown because most new people will build the troika before the realize that it sucks so bad vs the sealed sword and get kicked around (as happened to me). New people should not be penalized for making the decision to go with one sword or another. But you know what, if you people all think bosses prizes need to be better than anything close to it, we may as well nerf the alchemer, all flourish lines, magnus lines and why the leviathan while we're at it. In fact, because the fang of vog is harder to get, we should nerf the sealed sword and snarble barb too so that at the end of the day, everyone will be wielding the same stupid weapon
this probably isnt the time to post it but i have seen tons of wepon threads suggsting weps that are, basically, outranked. i agree with them all.
While I'm quite disappointed that the Troika hasn't been buffed, I am VERY pleased to see changes being made! Let us hope that our plight will be heard and that the Sudaruska will see some form of buff!
I'm now curious about DA/GF vs Brandish. They are different swords by nature, but this buff seems to make their charges 'similar' enough to allow them to be adequately compared and contrasted. Alas, I do not have the time (or Brandish) available to examine this change. Regardless, let us hope for a Troika boost!
It doesn't need to stun yourself. It just needs to be better. Straight up.
By its nature the Sudaruska and Triglav swords are just worse than DA or GF for DPS/a crap ton of everyday situations. OOO doesnt seem to be making any crazy changes like ASI buffs or damage buffs or anything which leaves us with a sword that is worse in every way besides having an exremely unique charge attack that has AoE effects. The DA and GF do not have AoE status effects and you can say GF has AoE status effect but seeing as the charge time is about 1.75x as long as its brother the DA and cursing yourself for 40+ seconds thereby losing 2 of your weapons for 40+ seconds is not really a viable AoE status effect. Where are we now? Sudaruska as a charge attack ONLY support sidearm for bombers and crazed gunmen that can find a way to use it. For bombers i imagine it would be incredibly helpful assuming some conditions are met... A) get an electron charge bomb B) get CTR med UV on your sudaruska C) Get damage bonus med trinket and CTR med trinket (for swords). Now, drop your Electron vortex in a massive pack of -insert non gremlin/beast monster type- pull out the sudaruska and charge up your attack with a nice CTR max. Giant mountain of stun, massive damage, tons of knockback and the knight remains safe the entire time. There's your niche....
After thought, if any gunner can find a decent way to use this beast, you're a magic man
*edit: see my post after Sir-dimwit's post Y_Y
Sorry for the prolonged hiatus, but i had to do a bit of research. :3
BUT! Now i can answer a lot of questions for you...
First off, each weapon has some hidden stats... knockback, flinch, and the like... What this means it that the Troika has a much higher knockback stat than the SS line... but, since knockback not only stops monsters from hitting you (Much like the SS's flinch stat) but keeps damage away when used right, the trade off is damage...
The good news? (And the research i have been doing...) They have recently fixed the range issue. The range has been scaled to the same distance from the tip of the sword as the SS line. (Khorovod/Grintovec testing only) E.G. i have consistently hit 5+ monsters with both hits in JK runs... with all my damage boost it equals... ~132+156x5=912 damage total, and they were all knocked away far enough that i could move to set up my next attack. (BTW... i suggest using slime for testing seeing as they almost always move towards you and are easy to predict.. oh yeah, There is the JK palace too, easly found ;3)
now, the safety for damage trade i can deal with... but it would still be nice to boost the 5* a bit... give the charge/normal attacks a little zest/different flavor... :3
I hope this helps!
P.S. Thanks Seimeinoki for the energy donations for the testing ^3^