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How about a Mist Energy tank expansion, instead of just giving us mist tanks for each new tier?

23 replies [Last post]
Sun, 11/13/2011 - 15:03
Jandalf's picture
Jandalf

You'd start off with 100 Mist as your total capacity, then, when you reach Tier 2, instead of a crummy one-use Mist Tank, how about an expansion to our total amount of mist at one time? Plus 25 for Tier 2 Access, plus 50 Mist for Tier 3 Access? That way, we wouldn't have to deal with those greedy players who charge nearly 7,000 crowns for a mere 1000 Crystal Energy! Anyone else with me on this?

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 15:34
#1
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
100 CE, not 1000. Typo.And

100 CE, not 1000. Typo.
And no, I'm not with you, becuase I've proven this flawed with math several times. You have obviously never used the search bar to see if a topic has already been posted. Also, you can run indefinitely on CE, and make profit. Or just play Pvp and sell mod calibrators. Cost's 3k to get one if you win half/lose half, and you sell them for 9k, so you make 6k.
Heres a fourm where I already proved it screwed, the OP changed the topic though.
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/33056

Now to prove this wrong.
Say I have 175 energy, mist, and it takes me 22 hours to regenerate it. (currently takes 22 to rejuice 100)
22 times 60 equals 1320 minutes
1320 minutes divided by 175 energy equals roughly 7.54 minutes to regenerate one energy point. Round's to 7 and 1/2.
You have two hours spare, obviously, so 2 times 60 equals 120 minutes
120 minutes divided by 7.5 equals an extra 16 mist
So you REALLY have 191 energy per day.

I make 7k per T3 run, CE is 6k. At least when you haggle for a low price, I personaly don't use buy now.
So 7k equals 100 mist, so 700 equals 10 mist aka one level.
191 mist equals 19 levels, then 19 times 700 equals 13300 crowns per day.

That's enough to buy 200 CE with 100 mist, and have a spare 1300 crowns.
Logicaly a seller would notice that he could make 200 CE with 100 mist, and therefore DOUBLE the CE price to match it.
So CE now cost's 12000 if you haggle. That's OK for T3 players, who can pay double price cause they got double money.

But wait, T1 and T2 players DONT have double money.
So they are the ones paying extra, while T3 players pay the same.

A T2 player has 125 energy
10.56 minutes per mist point
Extra 2 hours makes 12 mist
So they have 137 mist per day
I'd make 5k off of jelly runs per day in T2, so 10 mist equals 500 crowns in T2
137 mist plays 13 levels, 500 times 13 equals 6500 crowns per day

6500 crowns per day sounds good in T2, but remember; CE cost's 12000 becuase people in T3 make 13300!!!

So for T2 players, you only make 1500 more crowns per day than before, but CE costs 6000 more crowns!!!
You just increased the T2 CE price by 4500 crowns!!!
THATS BAD BRO! IMAGINE T1!!!

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 15:37
#2
Niichi's picture
Niichi
7k crowns for 1k energy would

7k crowns for 1k energy would be quite the bargain. :o

Anyway, the reason for this is likely because single use mist tanks have a significantly smaller impact on the CE market than mist tank expansions. Three Rings is unlikely to do anything too significant that reduces a player's dependency on crystal energy.

Edit: Oh yes, and as stated above, it favours Tier 3 players far too heavily. These being players who can already run entirely off CE as it is and still profit.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 15:37
#3
Whistle's picture
Whistle
Logic, Orangeo you won it

Logic, Orangeo you won it

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 15:55
#4
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
Thank you very much. Now

Thank you very much. Now let's stop bumping this.
Dosen't make sense to give the rich people more money in order to avoid their high prices. This is also exactaly why the US economy is so screwed up.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:00
#5
Jandalf's picture
Jandalf
I'm not going for mathematical solutions, and it's not a typo.

I literally mean Mist Energy. Also, I know 7k cr for 1k CE would be a bargain, but 7k Crowns for 100 CE is a HUGE rip-off.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:02
#6
Jandalf's picture
Jandalf
Nvm, it is a typo.

Sorry about the confusion.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:03
#7
Jandalf's picture
Jandalf
>.<

Good point there. 3 Rings is like most other Americans. Greedy. I hate that about us, but it's human nature.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:06
#8
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
"i'm not going for

"i'm not going for mathmatical solutions"
so just regular solutions?
I KNOW you mean mist tank expansion, mist only, that's it. That's what I did my math with. I didn't make a solution, I just proved that teir-two players would DEFINITELY PAY 4500 CROWNS MORE. Don't belive me? Try actualy READING my WHOLE post, then comment. Prehaps me typing it over in capital letters might help.

That's the other reason why the US economy is damaged. People don't actualy listen.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:08
#9
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
"Good point there. 3 Rings is

"Good point there. 3 Rings is like most other Americans. Greedy. I hate that about us, but it's human nature."
OOO? I wasn't reffering to them at all. I meant T3 players. Greedy mabey not, but definitely rich. Giving them more money dosent make sense.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:09
#10
Jandalf's picture
Jandalf
I did read it all, I don't understand most of it.

I'm just not math smart. T_T

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:10
#11
Jandalf's picture
Jandalf
You're right.

I've gotta say, most Tier 3 People think that people with almost all 4-Star stuff would be able to survive Tier 2, but I can't for some reason. Probably because I don't have 4-Star Armor or Helm.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:16
#12
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
It's only additon,

It's only additon, subtraction, multiplication, and division. Try learning complex matricies, now THAT gets hard.

I'll shorten it down;

Currently, T3 players make 7000 per day.
With 75 extra mist, T3 players would make 13300 crowns in a day.
That's 6300 more crowns.

Currently, T2 players make 5000 per day.
With 50 extra mist, T2 players would make 6500 crowns per day.
That's 1500 more crowns.

See the problem? If T3 players, the highest bidders on CE, make 6300 more, CE will go up by 6300 in price. T2 players only make 1500 more, so CE is much much harder to buy.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:22
#13
Jandalf's picture
Jandalf
Ok. Thanks for shortening it down.

I'd have actually done the math, but I didn't have any paper on me. Now I see the problem with this idea. Tier 3 players are already unreasonable, add 6,300 crowns to the current prices, that would just be unbearable! I'd have to work for a week to get 100 CE, instead of 3 to 4 days. I'd be required by law (my own personal laws :3) switch to RuneScape or something.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:26
#14
Jandalf's picture
Jandalf
Man, I'd feel sorry for my sister if the CE prices went up.

She's 0-Star, the only 1-Star thing is a Bolted Blade I gave her. Sounds kinda sad for her.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:29
#15
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
I play T1 pvp, give out

I play T1 pvp, give out pummel guns to noobs. I make 15k a weekend offa it at least, (selling mod calibrators). Wonder if I saw her.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 16:36
#16
Jandalf's picture
Jandalf
Probably not.

She's only been on like twice, and not since they introduced Lockdown. Good to see I'm not the only one who does Tier 1 PvP, though. I've started selling Bolted Blades and Firecrackers to noobs.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 17:05
#17
Frostythepyro's picture
Frostythepyro
Orango your prediction is

Orango your prediction is wrong, because its based on two false principles. The first false priciple is that an increased msit tank would mean increased mist rate. There is nothing in the OP statement or any of the subsiquent statements that imply mist would come in at anything but the current 4.5 per hour. Thus requiring 38.5 hours to fill 175 mist (and 26.5 to fill 125). The second false principle is that being able to do aditional mist runs (by virtue of having more mist) would increase the amount of crowns you can gain per 100 mist spent, as the payouts per levels are untuched, the payout per energy is also untouched. Which makes prety much the entirety of orangeos first post false.

What more or less determines CE costs (or at least what value CE costs fluctuate around) is the amount of crowns you can earn using that energy (aka level payouts), conveince (selling is quicker than delving making it a more conveint crowns sorce than delving with the CE, driving CE prices down), and crafting and anything else that requires more than a mist tank worth of energy to do (because you NEED CE to craft 3* and above, driving CE prices up). Oh and supply of course, demand is covered in the other three points.

The only one a larger mist tank changes is the last one, so THATS where to look for economic impact. Most notably the ability to buy certain slot upgrades entirely on mist. Then think of the posible abuses with people who have multi paid acounts (thus individual mist acumulation), being able to buy slot upgrades, and silver keys, and the such for signifigantly less CE, which means less CE is consumed, and thus less CE is purchases with cash to replace it, which hurts OOO's botom line, in adition to widdening the gap between the economic power of t3 and t1 players, and widening the gap between paid and free players. The OP's idea is unlikely to happen.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 19:28
#18
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
My name is "Orangeo", not "Orango".

"Orango your prediction is wrong, because its based on two false principles. The first false priciple is that an increased msit tank would mean increased mist rate. "
That was yes, an assumption. Credit to you, though I had to assume one way or the other.

"The second false principle is that being able to do aditional mist runs (by virtue of having more mist) would increase the amount of crowns you can gain per 100 mist spent, as the payouts per levels are untuched, the payout per energy is also untouched."
That's a valid assumption. Why would OOO put in DOUBLE levels, but make them give HALF profit? That's not worth arguing.

SUMMARY AT END
SUMMARY AT END
I'll go to the one point where you did catch me making a guess, and still prove myself right.
It takes 13 minutes to regenerate 100 mist
that's 22 hours per day to fill yourself up
So in the 2 spare hours, you get 9 extra mist each, as opposed to more on T3 due to the faster rate that I assumed came with an expansion.
125 + 9 = 131
175 + 9 = 181
Can't play a 10th of a level, so those round to 13 and 18 levels, respectively.
I KNOW you can make 500 per level on the jelly levels.
I KNOW you can make 700 per level on the firestorm cidadel levels.
500 times 10 is 5000 crowns
700 times 10 is 7000 crowns
500 times 13 is 6500 crowns
700 times 18 is 12600 crowns

So T3 players are making 2000 more per day than T2 players right now
But would make 6100 more per day than T2 players if this was implimented, still going at 13 minutes per mist EACH.

So the difference between their profits increase goes OVER THREE TIMES AS MUCH AS A T2 WITH THE SAME REGEN SPEED. You might be able to make some "theoretical" predictions on how people would "interperet" the CE price, but T3 players would definitely make allot more money money than they did before compared to T2 players, unless you just nerfed the money on T3 levels. That means T3 players make the same money but play longer, and that's a different argument altogeather.

Since you obviously don't think that rich people having more money drives up CE, I'll point out other things that will get screwed up.

Watch me break the auction house with this;

T2 players have to craft 4* items to get into T3.
They have 125 mist.
That's 275 CE, per item.
That's 19250 crowns, if CE costs 7000.
They make 500 per level, that's 38.5 levels to make an item, rounds to 39, since you cant play half a level.

T3 players can make 4* items to sell.
They have 175 mist.
That's 225 CE, per item.
That's 12750 crowns, if CE costs 7000.
If they make 700 per level, that's 18.214... ect levels, rounds to 19 to make it, since you can't play under a level.

So T2 players have to play 39 levels, T3 players have to play 19.

As stated above, T3 players can play 18 levels per day, and T2 players can play 13 levels per day.

So a T3 player can make enough money to build a 4* in 1.055...etc days,and pay 12750, but a T2 player has to play for 2.052 days, and pay 19250.

SUMMARY HERE
SUMMARY HERE
So T3 players can make 4* items twice as quickly for 7000 crowns less, excluding unbinding, that would also effect T2 much more. Imagine trying to compete with a seller that can make things FASTER AND CHEAPER than you, with the exact same quality? Very hard indeed.

Logic!

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 20:37
#19
Sirkibles's picture
Sirkibles
I agree

WITH ORANGEO,he is very logical u know. Whoever does not agree is making a new argument altogether, one in which they are right. By virtue of the fact that you can make an entirely new arguement you can RIGHT and wrong at the same time. Even though that "right" is capatilzed doesn't mean "wrong" isn't there. Funny huh? And another thing, if u disagree with everthing orangeo says then you are likely NOT mentally stable. Sorry about that run on sentence.

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 22:35
#20
Frostythepyro's picture
Frostythepyro
crown income per day would

crown income per day would increase (which would increase crowns on the market and require aditional crown sinks, but that is only valid with the mist rate increase assumption, which is a poor assumtion), but income per ENERGY does not, and its the PER ENERGY income that dictates CE prices most strongly. Using 100 CE to delve after your mist is done will produce the same amount of profit both before and after. However with the far more reasonable assumption of a static mist income rate, If you come in and spend your mist before it caps at 100 everyday, then there wouldnt even BE a difference in what you can do, it would simply give more wiggle room in avoiding wasted mist due to capped tank.

Increasing mist rate will not happen, it would negitively impact the economy in the ways you mentioned in post #18, and reduce CE dependency across the board (which would have negitive impact on OOO's economy as well creating issues with the games economy).

Increasing mist tank may happen but is very, very unlikely due to the issues it would create as I listed in the last paragraph of post #17

Sun, 11/13/2011 - 22:56
#21
Iceeboy's picture
Iceeboy
Lol sirkibles and orangeo

Lol sirkibles and orangeo what a coincidence, and hi. Mist tanks are good as they are now, 70 mist in a T2 jelly king run gets you 7k. Snarby gives 4k per run, and vanaduke 9.5k. We wouldn't really need a mist extension because you can make more money than ce prices in T2 and up. Snarby gives 4k at regular and that could get you 2 2 star things if you are lucky. So the game is kinda balanced out, the way I think of it. And there actually is (kind of) mist tank extensions, in power surge weekends.

Mon, 11/14/2011 - 14:29
#22
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
Vannaduke gives you 9.5k?

Vannaduke gives you 9.5k? Didn't notice.
Anyway, yhea, increasing the mist rate is a no go, but having larger mist tanks would both increase the supply of crowns, increasing the CE price, but it would also decrease the demand for CE, lowering it. Those seem to cancel each other out, but things like crafting will create a constant demand for CE, makeing it go up moreso than down.

I don't think using this system would damage OOO income, but if it did, I'm sure OOO would quickly figure out a way to keep this from affecting their bottom line whatsoever.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 11:59
#23
Jandalf's picture
Jandalf
@Iceeboy

What levels are you playing before Snarbolax, then? At best, I'll get 2,500 crowns.

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