Spiral Knights - [Theory] Why shadowsun gives a low bonus

[Theory] Why shadowsun gives a low bonus

9 replies [Last post]

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 04:37

Juances

Elemental/shadow sowrds deal split normal. This mean half the bonus won't go to the important part of the sword but to the neutral one. This may make said weapon better against all enemies, but not specifically to those it was designed to kill. 50% of the bonus is 'wasted' on the normal damage, not the elemental/shadow one.
On the other hand, Gus have a single damage, so any bonus will greatly increas it's power against it's inteded tarets.

For example, a Glacius with damage bonus will see a 7% increase in effectiveness against undeads, while a Polaris will go up to 9-10%.

Might not be perfectly balanced and calculated, but you got the idea.
I know piercing swords and antigua upgrades are special cases for this rule.

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 11:15

Bopp

unless I missed something

Unless I missed something, Shadowsun doesn't appear in your post at all. Please help me out here.

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 11:19

Halifix

I believe any increases in

I believe any increases in damage affect the entire output, not just the normal part. Also, this post was somewhat hard to read.

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 11:52

Velcro

His argument is that swords

His argument is that swords generally have split damage while guns normally have pure damage.

So if you have a gun and a sword which both deal, say, 100 damage. While the gun is 100 of purely one damage type the sword is 50 of one and 50 of another.

So, assuming 1.4 multiplier for something weak to a certain damage type and 0.25 multiplier for something strong to a certain damage type. The gun will deal 140-100-25 while the sword will deal (assuming the other damage is normal so always neutral) 120-100-62.5. Now if you get a 13% damage increase on both the gun gains 18.2-13-3.25 damage while the sword gains 15.6-13-8.125 damage. So the gun gains ever so slightly more damage.

I think his argument is then that the shadowsun has a low damage bonus to avoid this increase. Though to be honest the numbers aren't really dramatically higher, I think the point has some merit, but it's mostly irrelevant.

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 12:00

Bopp

thanks, Velcro

Thanks for explaining this thread, Velcro.

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 12:54

Volebamus

If anyone can test with a

If anyone can test with a Polaris/5*Gun if their trinket offers a higher % increase than a Glacius/5*Sword while being on the same depth, we can have concrete numbers to work with.

From what I recall people mentioning though, the damage bonus % that a Blitz Needle gets against Vanaduke seems to match up with Sword Damage increases, but not sure yet if it's different on non-boss monsters.

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 23:02

Lukehandkooler

@Volebamus

I have trueshot & trueshot elite, Biohazard, hail driver, and blitz. Let me know if you want any numbers involving thoes and what strata and I will post back.

Fri, 11/18/2011 - 02:49

Dirty-Harry

Still a balance issue.

Even with that in mind, having the gun get a 6.5% boost vs the sword's 13% boost is a huge nerf, with the pure damaging types in mind would mean the gun gets only a 9.1-6.5-1.63 damage bonus vs 15.6-13-8 that the sword would get. Not to mention in the actual game guns do much less damage than swords do, and that there are swords that deal pure damage as well, so the comparison is laughable.
(This isn't even bringing up the issue with the negative status resists vs positive status resists.)

I can also test the Polaris, Callahan and Umbra driver with elite trueshot mods if you need even more comparisons.

Fri, 11/18/2011 - 04:36

Paweu

From my fuzzy memory i recall

From my fuzzy memory i recall zombies receiving 250dmg at d28 with 2x Elite Trueshot Module with a clean Polaris.

Fri, 11/18/2011 - 12:17

Culture

Just some numbers

A lot of the disparity might be due to the way that damage weakness/strength is calculated to begin with:
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/9955#comment-57112

Pure weapons don't get their fair share of damage bonus from monster weakness. But they are fully penalized when used against strong monsters. This causes unexpected things to happen when you add in damage bonus from armor or UVs.

And here are some samples of different damages for the different swings and charge attacks:

D28 Fearless Rigadoon
Fiend ............240 289 401 442
Fiend Medium 266 318 440 484
Increase .........11% 10% 10% 10%

D27 Glacius
Undead ........... 283 381 592 161
Undead Medium 321 433 658 182
Increase............ 13% 14% 11% 13%

D28 Acheron
Slime ....... 292 382 613 166
Slime High 352 466 716 199
Increase..... 21% 22% 17% 20%

(Why doesn't this forum allow tables?)

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[Theory] Why shadowsun gives a low bonus