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Spiral Armament Guide: Guns

16 replies [Last post]
Fri, 12/23/2011 - 13:37
Mohandar's picture
Mohandar

This guide attempts to highlight the different categories of 5* guns, what they are good for and who should use them. Keep in mind everything is relative and situational; exercise common sense when following any advice.

A note to newbies:
Spiral Knights has four types of damage: Normal, which is moderately effective on everything, and Elemental, Piercing and Shadow. These last three types each have two monster classes out of six that they are highly effective against (~50% more damage?), two they are highly ineffective against (~100% less damage?), and two they are neutral against. Therefore, in order to maximize the amount of damage you do, you should use a weapon dealing the appropriate type of damage against the monster you are fighting. Because the base damage of guns is low to begin with (the advantage is safety from distance), gunners should tailor their loadout to the level they are facing. Many levels spawn more than two classes of monsters, so it is recommended that gunners have at least 3 weapon slots. You can make do with two, but it is much harder even with the arsenal stations.

Elemental Alchemers:
These are the workhorses of a gunner's arsenal. Excellent damage against undead and constructs, team-compatible (they don't throw enemies around) and fairly easy to use. The recommendation is usually Nova Driver for extra damage, but Magma and Storm are fine too- just don't use them in places with Oilers or Quicksilvers. Hail Driver is less impressive, as gunner tactics usually involve kiting rather than freezing in place. They make passable sidearms for non-gunners because constructs (especially turrets) are what they often get used against. Unfortunately for beginning gunslingers, alchemers do not become particularly effective until the 4* Driver version, when bolts really start to ricochet.

Polaris:
This is the sidearm of choice for a swordsman. They are ideal for killing turrets at range- two of the three the turret types are weak to its elemental damage; strong enough hits will interrupt the turret's attack, and any non-shock turret has an additional chance of getting shocked, which can also interrupt their attack. Aside from attacking turrets though, the Polaris should be used sparingly as the knockback of expanded shots will annoy your team to no end. Having to dodge enemies bouncing around will also reduce the team's overall damage output. A pure gunner may consider taking one if they expect turret trouble, but I usually bring my Storm Driver anyway.

Biohazard/Umbra:
The only pure shadow guns. The Umbra Driver is generally the better pick especially if you can get medium or better CTR, particularly if you are looking for straight damage. As with all alchemers, the Shadowtech line doesn't really start shining until the 4* Driver. However, the Biohazard isn't a bad gun either, and has the bonus of herding and pinning gremlins against walls. The charged explosions are awesome-but-impractical, but still great fun nonetheless. If your only goal is to maximize damage, I would recommend Gran Faust or Acheron, but these guns are perfectly serviceable for dispatching slimes and the occasional gremlin.

Callahan:
The Callahan is the go-to pierce gun for Gunners, but I've found it rather lacklustre. However, there are no easy alternatives. Your best bet is to buff gun damage with Trueshot modules, so that you can knock down wolvers and devilites in full parties. While slow, it is a safe and surefire way to kill these enemies, as you can keep them safely knocked down at distance. Be warned that Alphas are difficult if impossible to knock down with a gun, so you'll have to keep kiting them. Unless you are a gunner, you will prefer a piercing bomb or sword, as the Callahan's damage output is rather mediocre.

Piercing Autoguns:
Blitz and Plague Needle are powerful situational weapons. They are famous for dealing with Vanaduke, but are also fantastic against Trojans and Alphas. Blitz is the recommendation, as the increased damage still outperforms the poison effect. The only benefit to Plague needle is that it weakens monsters, causing them to do less damage to you. The primary draw of these guns is the charge attack which roots you in place for some time, so they require much more skill to use- a missed attack generally means getting hit hard.

Normal Damage:
You won't see any pure gunners carrying normal damage weapons, because they need all the damage boosts they can get. That said, there are some normal damage weapons that see a bit of use. In particular, the Valiance is an acceptable sidearm for the nongunner because of its generality; if you don't expect to be facing turrets and want an all-purpose gun, this is your weapon of choice. The Volcanic Pepperbox is also amusing to use, although like all Autogun lines, the charge attack really hampers mobility. The Supernova and Neutralizer are not recommended because they have few or none of the advantages their counterparts offer, and all or most of the drawbacks. The same is true of the Iron Slug, but even more so.

Split Damage:
The much-maligned Argent Peacemaker and Sentenza are not general-purpose weapons as their split types might suggest, but specialized weapons. Again, no pure gunner should use these weapons barring exceptional circumstances (Peacemaker might be acceptable in FSC; Sentenza might have its uses in Deconstruction zones). They make passable albeit subpar sidearms for non-gunners, again due to the way split damage works. Personally, I am against changing them to pure-typed, because I have always like the theming behind these weapons. They could use higher base damage and a bonus against the types they are themed against (Undead/Fiend for Peacemaker; Beast/Gremlin for Sentenza).

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 13:47
#1
Bopp's picture
Bopp
I like it; two suggestions

Mohandar, I like it. I have two minor suggestions.

A lot of new-intermediate players (your target audience) don't understand damage types. So maybe add a note at the start, explaining why a gunner wants three slots, and why he should fill them with piercing, elemental, and shadow (or utility sword?).

You could clarify: Why exactly is Polaris better than Nova Driver or Storm Driver against turrets? Because Nova lacks shock, and Storm does less damage?

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 14:35
#2
Fradow's picture
Fradow
I have another minor

I have another minor suggestion : emphasize that the only reason to pick Plague Needle over Blitz Needle is to reduce the damage dealt by mobs (which is silly because Blitz Needle is going to one charge kill almost everything). I actually did the maths a while ago, you can find it here if you are not convince : http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/35702

Otherwise, good guide. I would just advise any non-gun piercing weapon instead of Callahan over advising to take a sword instead of shadow guns. Shadow guns are not THAT bad compared to Callahan (which I really feel is largely outclassed by piercing swords/bomb)

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 15:46
#3
Mohandar's picture
Mohandar
Hmm, does anyone have

Hmm, does anyone have actually percentages for the damage bonus and penalties? 50 and 100 are just offhand numbers I brewed up from memory, but the goal is to emphasize that monster resistances far outweigh monster weaknesses, and the reason to NOT use an inappropriate damage type is critical. Thanks for the feedback, once I've built and tried some more of the gunner armors I might comment on those as well.

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 16:51
#4
Bopp's picture
Bopp
some figures

I've done a quick study of BTB/FF, Combuster/Glacius/Voltedge, DA, and GF data from the guild Lancer Knightz. They exhibit a damage bonus of 29%-38% on their vulnerable monsters. The mixed-damage swords exhibit a damage penalty of 35%-37% on their resistant monsters. The BTB/FF exhibit a damage penalty of 78% on their resistant monsters.

The standard estimate of 75% penalty on resistant damage seems about right. The mixed-damage swords are penalized only half that much, because half of their damage is normal.

The standard estimate of 25% bonus on vulnerable damage seems low. The BTB/FF data suggest that it should be 38%. But there is some evidence floating around that the piercing swords don't actually do pure piercing damage. The mixed-damage data suggest that it should be 58%-76%. I'd say that giving 50% as a rule of thumb is reasonable.

I'd love to see a more comprehensive study.

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 17:08
#5
Somenubcake's picture
Somenubcake
nice job mohandar.

nice job mohandar.

you may want to add a bit about how to get ricochets to spawn inside the target for the alchemer section.

Wed, 01/04/2012 - 22:44
#6
Tsubasa-No-Me's picture
Tsubasa-No-Me
As a solo-er...

I happen to use a Sudaruska and a Iron Slug, and for the damage bit, the iron slug has a leg up on the Callahan. The normal shots are quite long ranged and explode on impact, interrupting and dealing splash damage. When used well the normal shot can hit up to 4 enemys in one shot, dealing about 130 damage each. Thats 520 damage in ONE shot; now, it WILL interrupt (Unless they are constructs, or you're in a full team) so a second shot is HIGHLY recomended. 1040 damage in about one second. For a gun that's great! Now, most of the time, the only place you can do this is an arena or FSC, but even there it is well received. Most of the time you will only one to two foes unless you are soloing, but the damage output still beats the Callahan as long as there are two or more foes to fight.

And the charge... <3 First off, i must tell you HOW it works. Think of firing a insta-vortex bomb, Very far away, and with the damage hitting imediantly. That's what it is. This charge will mostly hit 4 foes, but it can easily hit 6- for ~300 EACH! That's 1800 damage, in an instant, with an escape of 4 squares back. SHABAM!

Now, the iron slug takes a little aim, but soloing or doing places with unheard of numbers of monsters the Iron Slug really shines! i would like to suggest you tell them a bit about this one, if you don't mind! :D

See you around!

~Tsu

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 03:09
#7
Regalya's picture
Regalya
Just to fix misinterpratation

Just to fix misinterpratation about shadow guns.
For a gunner Biohazard's dps unmatched against shadow weak creatures RJK for example no weapon (guns,bombs,swords) will kill it faster than Biohazard (min 150+ dps)
But Umbra has it's use the charge attack destroys goblins where bio users might strugle if they aint get used to shot where the goblin will be instead of where it is
I concur that med/high+ CTR proven to be super effective with alchemers.

and polaris for everyone! gunner swordman or bomber it's the good to go elemental gun with decent area of effect,proc and knock back.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 03:44
#8
Fradow's picture
Fradow
@Regalya : please refrain

@Regalya : please refrain from "dps unmatched" unless you have solid numbers to back it up. I'm almost certain a Nightblade will do better single target dps, Faust will do better against 2/3 targets, and fire/shock bombs smokes every gun against a pack of mini-jellies

Polaris is also a bad gun as a main weapon for gunners, because if you constantly spam it, it will be annoying for mates (reducing party dps more often than not). Also, the knockback often reduce your own dps too. Alchemers don't suffer of those drawbacks.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 04:28
#9
Regalya's picture
Regalya
@Fradow with dual elite

@Fradow with dual elite trushot you'll deal arround 96-100~ up damage per hit to RJK 3x bullet can be fired under 0.5~ secs with regular nameless set along with less than 0,7~ sec reload time. AOE? Why would bother with adds when you can circle arround the boss in semi melee range(out of it's hitbox ofc)
and if aoe indeed needed you can trow 2-3 super quick charge shots and destroy half of the room.

I recently sold my Umbra driver because it became rusted due never feel like using it.

If you get the hang of it polaris knockback will not reduce your dps nor will make annoyance to your teammates most of the time the shock will prevent mosters to get knockback and the calibur line,bomb knockbacks alot more annoying then limited knockback from polaris ;)

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 06:20
#10
Fradow's picture
Fradow
It's a bit off-topic, but i'm

It's a bit off-topic, but i'm going to answer :

Just tested, my stopwatch told me around 1.6 sec for 3 bullets + reload, with max ASI.

Surprinsingly, it's about the same time a Nightblade takes to do 3 hits, also with max ASI. But according wiki, the 2 first hit will do around 125 each, and the third around 160, without damage bonus. That's way higher than a Biohazard. You can argue some things about safety or poison, but please don't make blatantly false claims.

As for why AOE ? Because RJP is littered with jellies, which don't come one at a time, so using AOE will be way faster ? The bos takes 1 to 2 minutes. The whole run takes about 30 minutes. It's easy to see where you should optimize if you want to do it fast. As for Biohazard aoe, as much as I like it for the fun factor of blowing everything, it takes too long to set up (a GF user will have cleared everything by the time you stack enough charges to killed jellies) and the random knockback is not great, because if you don't kill everything with the charge, now mobs are all over the places and it's going to take a long time to either kill them one by one or regroup them again.

As for the polaris, yes you can do that. The problem is most players apart from a few skilled gunners take the time to actually learn that and put it in practice.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 07:30
#11
Tsubasa-No-Me's picture
Tsubasa-No-Me
BUT!

If you add up the knockback of more than one pulsar shot.... O.o they got farther than a calibur charge. It's REALLY annoying when some idiot hits 3 lumbars with it, and all you see is a flash of teal or w/e and 3 lumbar fly across your screen to hit you as they pass. It SUCKS! Also, knockback DOES add up, i hit a lumbar the same time as a calibur charge man, it flew all the way across the arena, hit the wall, and couldn't even move for 2 ish seconds....

One pulsar is bad enough in a team, two is just plain crazy, and MAYBE you could kill vana by everyone spamming the CRAP out of it, but i doubt it... :/

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 11:25
#12
Regalya's picture
Regalya
@Fradow either your or my

@Fradow either your or my stopwatch broken then i present what i seen on screen not info from some other source.
RJK littered with jellies? you dont say!! all you gonna do is make a circle arround boss and "kite them" you don't have to kill any single jelly in order to do the boss btw your charget shots will do 160-170+ for per charge so 2 charge enough to clear out half of the map you know how fast catalyzer line charge up.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 12:04
#13
Fradow's picture
Fradow
When i said RJP, I meant

When i said RJP, I meant Royal Jelly Palace, as in the boss + the 2 levels before. The 2 levels before make up most of the time you need to complete the run, and since the boss is not that hard, I optimize to run those levels fast.

Perhaps 2 charges are enough for mini-jellies, but not for bigger mobs (I know that well, I did several runs with 4 biohazards in the party).

I'm not going to argue anymore on that, since it leads nowhere. I presented my opinion and numbers backing it up, that's enough for me.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 12:21
#14
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
meh

I dont believe i've seen a cat user who used it well enough to make my runs in RJP any faster than it usually is.

About the polaris, its easy to aim monsters not at your teammates. bu say ur party of three otherpeople are all whacking on a different target. Chances are you'll be shooting at one of them. Even if you dont hit your party, the expanded shots are like mini nitronome blasts. They cover a decent portion of a monster, hiding the attack animation.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 04:52
#15
Regalya's picture
Regalya
@Fradow 2 charge shots will

@Fradow 2 charge shots will be enough to kill royal mini,jelly cubes,blast cubes,polyp in solo and 3 maybe 4 for 4man group (250~ dmg on detone target and 160~ aoe per charge)
You mentioned 4 man bio group? 3 man builts charge 1 detonates... every enemy in your path dies instantly but i guess you did not use it that way ;)
Charge built will take so much time? What are you smoking? it's the fastest charging gun line you can praticly spam it consistently.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 05:18
#16
Fradow's picture
Fradow
More often than not, there

More often than not, there weren't enough charges, so instead of just doing they were fling all over the place and then it was a pain to kill the remaining ones.

I didn't said the charge was slow >.< But it's still slower to build 3/4 charges THEN detonate it (it's not always that simple with all those minis) than just do 4 swing in the pack and kill everything with a Faust. A Biohazard charge do LESS damage than a Faust swing. And a swing is certainly faster than a Biohazard charge + recoil time.

Your insistance to not understand what I say is confusing.

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