I usually take down Vana with the Shiver+3 Blitzes strategy. I myself own a Blitz already but have been thinking abou getting a Plaugue Needle to poison Vana. Assuming no damage bonuses, would the poison+my Plague damage+2 other Blitzes outdamage straight up 3 Blitzes? Or does Plague not poison enough to matter and/or have a much less damage output that 3 Blitzes would be better anyway?
Plague Needle vs Vanaduke
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 07:51
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 08:04
#2
I know it keeps his fireballs
I know it keeps his fireballs away so that might be one reason why I might get one.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 09:49
#3
Lies!
First of all, Plauge Needle Charge Shots are almost guarenteed to cause poison, so the "if" in applying poisoned is nonexistent.
Second, poison in my experience is the equivalent of slightly less than +20% dam. Let's say Blitz does about 120 damage per shot, and Plague does about 80 damage per shot (when using a charge shot). The Plague gets bumped up to about 96 damage, and the Blitz gets bumped up to about 144. Between the two, that is about +40 damage which puts the Plague on par with the Blitz when paired with 1 Blitz. Add more Blitz's and the Plague does eventually out-damage a Blitz.
It's just you need one Plague and 1+ Blitz to be effective. If either requirements are failed to be met, then the Blitz is superior to Plague.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 10:27
#4
I call lies too!
@Traevelliath
While Plague Needle Charge may cause poison on every charge, keep in mind that it'll rarely be applied on the first shot, so all shots before poison don't benefit from it. That's also true for the Blitz users who may shot before you, or after the poison disapear. I did a run earlier with a Plague Needle user, and the uptime of poison was way less than 100%, perhaps around 50/75%. I would need more test and a more experienced Needle user to make some uptime statistics, but it can't be 100%.
Also, it can easily be replaced by poison vials.
As for your calculation ... well, you start with bad numbers. I did the maths a while ago assuming a 100% uptime (so a bias in favor of Plague), more numbers here :
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/35702
Bottom line is, with the bias in favor of Plague, it breaks even for 2 Blitz + 1 Plague and get really better when you have 3 Blitz and 1 Plague.
You'd better get a Blitz and not have to worry about that. Get higher damage against Trojans, don't overlap with another Plague users ...
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 13:21
#5
Better option: have your
Better option: have your shiver user alternate between SB and VV. Keep him frozen and poisoned the whole fight, while the other three go to town with blitz for extra DPS.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 17:49
#6
A powerful Blitz will benefit
A powerful Blitz will benefit more from grouping with a Plague. If I'm grouping with a swordie carrying a UVless Plague, and I'm using my Ultra CTR, VH ASI, VH Damage Blitz, the poison is going to be a little more useful. Basically, Plague can be nice if you're not very good at DPSing Vana and you're grouping with a Blitzer that is.
Even so, Blitz > Plague. I love the poison boost, but there's no substitute for the extra damage from another Blitz, and poisoning Vana to reduce his mace damage seems kind of pointless to me.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 19:06
#7
nah
not worth, going with 3 blitz + shiver (or 4 blitz if you want some challenge) and everyone collects poison vails outdamages plague+blitz run.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 19:58
#8
Well...
What do you want? Damage or Utility? Blitz for damage, or Plague for utility?
If you want my advice, go for utility. There are way too many knights obsessed with damage that they wouldn't know a useful weapon unless it killed them a thousand times...
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 21:47
#9
Wot Ren sez.
Personally I go
Wot Ren sez.
Personally I go in with a Pepperbox, but that's because I don't feel like making a 5* weapon JUST for Vana when it's next to useless in every other map in the world. I'd rather drop a (noticeable) portion of damage on Vana, while still being perfectly useful to keep him dps'd, but be able to use that gun in...iunno, every other map in the entire game. Not great for the party, sure; great for me though, and any party that can't accept 30 secs more killtime per phase has more problems than me. It may sound selfish, but ultimately it's no more selfish than the party who demands I use a weapon I don't like just for their sake.
Same issue with Plague. If you prefer plague over blitz, use that. The damage is definitely lower, no one's arguing that, but the poison will help and the damage will keep up better than if you, say, just walked in with a sword. Let people appreciate you being useful as you are rather than being forced to comply to the same gun everyone else uses if you don't want to.
However, if you actually prefer Blitz over Plague, then don't get Plague thinkin' that it's a secret weapon against him. I tried that once with ISB thinkin' the damage+shock would be a tricksy wee way to up overall usefulness but it just didnae pan out as nicely as just usin' the RSS for damage....not with the double charge time anyways /rant-tangent...
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 00:09
#10
Or go 4 man polaris.
ftw.
Or go 4 man polaris.
ftw.
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 00:48
#11
/!\
I know it keeps his fireballs away so that might be one reason why I might get one.
:O
explain?
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 01:10
#12
@Renpartycat
"Utility" ? The
@Renpartycat
"Utility" ? The only utility is to lower Vana damage. Since Blitz will OS pretty much everything else (or close to) the poison is not really worth it on the rest. You shouldn't get hit by Vana in the first place. I'm all for getting some utility instead of damage often, but Plague just doesn't cut it, from an optimization point of view. It's viable, but will lower your usefulness for no real upside.
@Darkbrady
While it may seem Blitz needle is only used on Vana, it's not quite the case. It's also used to OS trojans (which makes a big difference in some room, especially with not so experienced teamates who would otherwise get hit a lot by them). It can also be used on zombies and doesn't have the dangerous charge property of pepperbox (but it'll probably have a little less dps). And it can be used against beast/fiends if you are an experienced gunner (or just willing to try).
But yeah, Pepperbox is also viable if you do not wish to make a Blitz and already have it.
@Demonicsothe
I tried that. So SLOW.
Sun, 01/29/2012 - 01:52
#13
@Fradow:
I'm not going to say
@Fradow:
I'm not going to say anythin' about large parties, as I have no experience with this issue in higher than 2man parties, but I can Ohko Trojans with my Pepperbox, and I have no~very little damage bonuses on my gun.
But I get your point ofc, it's obviously not used NOWHERE outside of vana, but pierce weak enemies are few enough as it is, and those that do tend to dodge; blitz can be used against devils/wolvers the same as pepperbox but it's awkward; I use my pepperbox mostly against lumbers, puppies etc; the mobs that blitz fails at. And I can see that the drag-effect is dangerous in some situations, but I think it's typically a massive benefit, unless you're a pure gunner and have nowhere to move, ofc! xD
Mon, 01/30/2012 - 15:35
#14
My two cents
So i run with a blitz myself, and usually another blitzer or two, and a shiver. majority of the time, its 2 blitz, someone distracting guards, and a shiver. Funny thing is, runs are better when I run with Grandtheftgnome, who uses a plague needle. Damage is higher, vana dies faster, overall smoother run. Now, it helps that Gnomie is a great player, but I truly think that paired with a Blitz, the plague needle is really a great asset.
Just my two cents.
Mon, 01/30/2012 - 15:55
#15
@Perronius maths are
@Perronius maths are generally more accurate than feelings. There is no way 1 Blitz + 1 Plague is faster than 2 Blitz for equivalent CTR/DMG/ASI and player skill. Therefore, either the Plague Needle user is more skilled or he has more stats. Or both.
Mon, 01/30/2012 - 16:55
#16
It seems to me like the
It seems to me like the poison increase in damage is modified off base damage rather than damage bonus damage, i.e. the amount of extra damage I get with two Elite Trueshots is equal to the amount of extra damage someone gets with none. So that makes poison less appealing, if that's the case.
Mon, 01/30/2012 - 18:44
#17
@ Fradow
It's entirely possible that the three or four plague users are just better than the blitzers i've run with, but try it for yourself. run with someone who uses a plague needle. With Vana consistently poisoned, it is simply a smoother run, and the damage boost is very nice. I understand that the math says two blitzes outdamage a blitz and a plague, and I'm not inclined to argue that. I'm saying that having Vana poisoned (and its really only the first plague strike that doesnt benefit from teh damage bonus on a poisoned target; after that he is poisoned for vitrually all of stage 1 3 5), taking more damage and dealing less damage is condusive to a more pleasant run.
in this case, I'm siding with having a plague needle, simply because I prefer to run with at least one in my party. Just personal preference here.
Mon, 01/30/2012 - 19:13
#18
The problem is that if you
The problem is that if you swap out the Plague for a Blitz, Vana is taking more damage. And Vana dealing less damage is largely irrelevant because the quality of a Vana fight is directly related to, and caused by, the amount of Shadow Fire on the floor (or lack thereof), and poisoning Vana does not reduce the quantity of Shadow Fire that falls from the mace slam, as far as I'm aware.
If you have two needles, and the Blitzer is making 80% of the attacks, then yeah, a Plague can be nice to have as the second needle. I prefer to see a Plague in the hands of an inexperienced Vanaduke fighter in my party, for example, because I expect to be making far more attacks than anyone else due to my CTR/ASI and my general Vanaduke skill.
But if your needles are all seeing equivalent use, then Plague falls behind. And you really don't want a Plague as your ONLY needle, because with no freeze or if Vana breaks free, high DPS is your best friend for not having to energy revive.
Tue, 01/31/2012 - 01:42
#19
@Perronius my smoothest run
@Perronius my smoothest run were with experienced people and vana freezed all the time, the presence or not of Plague Needle was irrelevant (I don't think i'm really going to notice the difference in killing speed with a Needle, whether it be faster or slower).
And really, smooth run tend to happen more when there is only 1 Needle and 1 shiver, because the 2 other people can really take care of zombies/slags and fire easily (then ... they just wait and have a chat when it's done). It's a little longer (but not THAT longer) and WAY safer.
The damage dealt by Vana is largely irrelevant : you shouldn't be hit by him. What is dangerous is slags, fire and the ceiling. But if you can succeed to totally prevent him from swinging is mace, you eliminate both the fire and ceiling hazards. And if you have 2 person for slags (and incidentally not breaking the freeze), it's VERY easy.
Tue, 01/31/2012 - 10:09
#20
@ Fradow
I get you, and don't disagree, but still enjoy running with a plague. That being said, I would not go with ONLY a plague user, and maybe I just enjoy the novelty of it all. I don't know. We have done 1 Blitz and 1 shiver with two on slags before, that works nicely as well. I use two damage trinkets when we run that way, works out nicely.
I think the TL;DR is this: Plague is nice, but mathematically BLitz is better. I still like plague, for unexplainable reasons.
Doesn't matter enough, sadly. The poison bonus is small enough that you'd be better off with the extra damage from Blitz. I have not checked if keeping Vana poisoned reduces his damage output significantly though.