Spiral Knights - Gunslinger PvE Guide: How useful is x gun when I upgrade it to 5*?

Gunslinger PvE Guide: How useful is x gun when I upgrade it to 5*?

100 replies [Last post]

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 19:19

The-Rawrcake

Some of you might remember my lengthy guide which I never even got around to finishing. Mainly because updates would make it screwy.

So, I decided to make 2 things and that is it. Make it short and sweet.

The Goal? To mainly answer this question: How useful is x gun when I upgrade it to 5*? How does it compare to others?

This guide can also be used by people without said question(s). It can be used as a reference if you want, but my purpose it to be able to direct people who ask questions about wether or not their gun will ever be good.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>> How useful is x gun when I upgrade it to 5*?<<<<<

Elemental Guns:

>>Alchemers themselves are great for crowd control, and AoE damage. Once you learn how to utilize its charge attack, you will find it extremely useful. In addition to the high AoE damage of the alchemers once you learn how to position split bullets and the ricochet, the single target damage is comparable to the Antiguas and by no means bad. The split bullets that split to the left of the bullets can make you hit the same target twice. If you are successful at this, though it is sometimes extremely difficult or even impossible, double hitting single monsters 2/5 of the time will cause alchemers to out-dps Antiguas in single target damage.

Magma Driver - This is an elemental alchemer that sacrifices raw damage for fire. Considering the majority of content as well as mostly end-game content, it throws at you fire-themed monsters which you would use an elemental gun on or not very many elemental weak monsters. Examples of this is Firestorm Citadel and the shadow lair versions of Firestorm Citadel and Ironclaw Munitions factory. Because of this, you might consider getting a different alchemer if you do not already have a firotech. However, the only thing that this gun sacrifices for fire is a somewhat small portion of raw damage. You might occasionally get a snarky comment from someone if you use this in FSC, albeit the sacrifice for the status is small. The raw elemental damage it deals is equivalent to Hail Driver and Storm Driver. There is no bad reason not to use this in any place with enemies weak to elemental, just know that you won't be causing fire.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Magma_Driver

Hail Driver - This is an alchemer which sacrifices raw damage for freeze. Freeze is extremely useful for crowd control, despite the misleading and untrue things people might tell you. Yes, it is actually useful. I find Hail Driver the most useful alchemer mainly for its survivability purposes, though you are definately sacrificing damage for the freeze which many people do not like. When you learn how to utilize the freeze, it is a very useful tool. One great use for this gun is on Vanaduke's first and possibly second body phases. While positioning the charge attack a bit on his right or his left, you will deal a good amount of damage as well as freeze lock him. This is a nice and easy way to take out this phase. While not using this little tactic, you can shoot Hail normally at Vanaduke in order to freeze him. Once frozen, charge up a fairly nice CTR reduced Blitz or Plague Needle, and deal a great amount of damage to him safely.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Hail_Driver

Storm Driver - This is an alchemer that sacrifices raw damage for shock. Shock is a useful utility status, as well as good for damage. The shock will help you more on AoE than single target, but its utility is what you should be focusing on. A Nova Driver with its raw damage is accepted as greater for AoE damage, but offers no utility. A great gun, with a utility + damaging status.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Storm_Driver

Nova Driver - This is an alchemer with no status but the highest raw damage following an update. Nova is accepted as the best of the alchemers for damage, but offers no utility. Great all around gun, you won't have to worry about being not as useful in a certain status-themed strata.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Nova_Driver

>>Pulsars themselves are specialty use, and should not be used as a main DPS gun. First of all, their bullets move at a crawl but still very useful. Their specialty uses are survivability due to knockback, possibly AoE damage while you are not going to upset your party members, killing turrets, and killing devilites. Knockback can be extremely useful on these guns, as well as be the most annoying thing to your group members. Supernova offers the greatest knockback because shock will not cancel it, and Polaris offers the best DPS.

Polaris - Polaris is awesome, I (used to) use this in every single loadout due to how useful it is (until I discovered the magic of the Supernova). Takes out turrets while keeping them locked out from performing any attack, basically a turret death wish once you have them locked down. It is also amazing for taking out devilite packs safely. Finally, great to utilize its knockback for keeping huge packs of monsters away from you. A Polaris is more DPS-oriented than a Supernova, however a Supernova has better, more stable knockback. The shock on Polaris can cancel knockback. This gun is accepted as the best gun sidearm for anyone, as well as very handy for gunners. I highly advise not using this as your only elemental DPS gun, however. Whenever I would carry this one, I also had around another elemental DPS gun because spamming a Polaris is frowned upon, even annoying while solo in my opinion. Great for a fourth weapon slot as a gunner. Can be used to hit Vanaduke past his barriers.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Polaris

Argent Peacemaker - This is a more single target damage focused elemental gun. If an alchemer double clips their bullets 2/5 of the time, the alchemer wins in single target damage. However, that is unrealistic on most monsters excluding bosses. This gun leaves you slightly more vulnerable while firing moving at a very tiny bit slower movement speed while firing in comparison to an alchemer, and you do not have a 100% movement speed moment like you do with alchemers when shooting and pausing. Great option for hitting Vanaduke past his barriers, while still having mobility to keep you safe while you are still getting the hang of the fight.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Argent_Peacemaker

Shadow Guns:

>>With our few number of shadow guns, it is mostly up to mechanics.

Umbra Driver - A shadow alchemer. Its split bullets are amazing for packs of slimes, as well as the ice queen / royal jelly / jelly king boss when positioned correctly. On gremlins, this gun is far better on menders, because it will burst them down before they can bubble themselves becoming invulnerable for a number of hits. A Sentenza does not offer the burst damage to take out menders fast enough in most situations, while you can double clip splits from an Umbra on menders at times. Otherwise, a Sentenza's mechanics make it possibly better for gremlins, though an alchemer is great for taking them down as well. More of an all around great usage gun.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Umbra_Driver

Biohazard - And this one is specialty usage. Brief catalulzer description, charged shots make big boom. Issue is, big boom does not benefit from gun damage bonus currently, and chain-charging hinders your mobility greatly: launching makes you total immobile, and moving while charging slows down your movement speed. This hinders survivability. Use mostly for packs of slimes. Do not think because this has poison, it is the best on ice queen / royal jelly / jelly king. Raw damage tends to be the most important on that boss, as you should be using curse + poison vials to burst down the boss extremely quick. Even on the shadow lair boss (ice queen) the fight goes fast enough to where raw damage might be the most useful. If you prefer the normal attacks on this gun instead of the charges, I highly suggest investing your time in an Umbra or Sentenza instead for their normal attacks if you can. Though it may seem just negative things that I am saying, it is an all around viable gun not lacking in damage greatly, and definately much more fun than any other shadow gun. If you like this gun like I do, then you will be ok getting it.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Biohazard

Sentenza - Sentenza deals higher single target damage than Umbra, unless alchemers are double hitting the same monster at least 2/5 of the time. Due to the mechanics, it is nice to use on gremlins with just how their dodge patterns are and how the bullet hit box is screwy on gremlins, somtimes hitting their shield yet damaging them. Not as great as the Umbra on menders, however, because it doesn't offer great burst damage that a double clipped split Umbra can do, as well as the Umbra charge potentially one shotting them. Still great on slimes, the charge attack can deal a great amount of damage on IQ / RJ / JK when positioned correctly.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Sentenza

Piercing Guns:

Blitz Needle -
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Blitz_Needle

Plague Needle -
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Plague_Needle

Callahan -
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Callahan

Normal Guns:

Volcanic Pepperbox -
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Volcanic_Pepperbox

Neutralizer -
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Neutralizer

Supernova -
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Supernova

Valiance -
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Valiance

Iron Slug -
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Iron_Slug

Blank guns are coming later. I'll get to them eventually.

Please comment on what I have wrong / what you want me to add. This guide is open for anyone's suggestions.

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 20:56

Milkman

Nitpicking. Like a monkey!

First of all, thanks for doing this. This is looking to be a much better than the current gunslinger's guide we have on the wiki at the moment. Hopefully it will replace that one. A few points:

Polaris

"this isn't to be used as a DPS gun like an elemental alchemer...single-target DPS of Polaris is superior to any elemental alchemer" I'm not sure whether you've unwittingly made a contradiction or you are attempting to expose a subtle difference. Care to elaborate?

Also wouldn't the alchemers out-DPS the polaris? My reasons for saying this are:
- Alchemers can use single-target internal richochets (combine this with the fact that 1 shot, pause, 1 shot [for alchemers] is faster than 2 shots, pause, 2 shots [for polaris])
- Polaris knockback reduces accuracy and knocks monsters out of range (unless cornered)
- Higher damage for nova driver? (I don't actually know how the damage correlates, and there are few numbers in the wiki, but I believe the numbers are similar if not higher for the alchemers)

Callahan

You mention the knockdown of gremlins. I think you should also mention that it knocks down wolvers and also interrupts devilites (and maybe others?)

I think you should also explain why stun can be good or bad (as I assume this guide is for newer players)

Other

In the Pepperbox/Blitz/Neutralliser/Iron Slug descriptions you mention various uses in Vanaduke's boss fight (and also biohazard in relation to JK and IQ). Would it not be more appropriate to mention this in section 6? If you feel otherwise then I at least think you should also mention that Blitz is the highest DPS weapon against Vanaduke.

In several weapon descriptions (AP, Pepperbox, Callahan, Blitz) you mention survivability. I feel you should explain why each gun has good/bad survivability unless you plan to mention each gun specifically in section 1 (which I don't think would be a good idea). All this would require in most cases is saying that the attack/charge locks you into place for a long period of time.

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 22:07

The-Rawrcake

Ah. yes! I was just thinking

Ah. yes! I was just thinking that thing about contradicting myself while typing up my pulsar gun mechanics "except for bosses and gun puppies... waiiitt a second didn't I say...."

Thank you for finding that!

And for the Alchemer vs. Polaris dps, Polaris and Nova both, on Vanaduke, deal 109 or 119 damage. (I saw a 1 and a 9 in both numbers, and it was in the hundreds). In addition Polaris can shock and has a larger clip size, so it comes down to combos per minute. Do you know if the wiki has combos per minute for both Polaris and Nova Driver?

Also yes, I'll reorganize once all the sections are completed. Some thing I already moved out and into mechanics.

I'll mention survivability once I come up with a "general" gun mechanics part of section 1, to go with the more specific things like alchemer and pulsar.

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 22:09

Ultimate-Ninja

one question!!!

Since I'm deciding between getting a supernova or polorias, I want to know if the supernova also interrupts gun puppies like what the polorais since the supernova sounds more viable with guarenteed knockback and usefully in many situations. The only con is that it has no shock and deals less damage on gun puppies.

So does the............

Does the supernova interrupt gun puppies?
Is the damage difference on gun puppies significant enough?

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 22:17

The-Rawrcake

Supernova will also interrupt

Supernova will also interrupt gun puppy attacks.

The damage difference on gun puppies is indeed very significant.

Supernova should not be your first Pulsar, because it is a more specialized use (survivability).

Polaris can be used as both survivability and gun puppies. Just that its knockback is inferior.

So if I were you, I would go Polaris first :) Thank you Ultimate-Ninja for the question, I made the Pulsar mechanics section explain Supernova and Polaris in the beginning instead of just the end incase someone would skim over, they'd catch it better now

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 22:46

Ultimate-Ninja

ah. Thanks. :D

Thanks for your opinion. I'll definetly go with polaris.

By the Way Nice Guide. Really informational.

Looking really good right now.
Expect to see some more questions later since I'm a Noob gunner still. D:
Hopefully your guide will answer it

Edit:
Milkman

Well, since the alchehemer needs to be in a specific direction for the richotet to work. (forgive me if I'm wrong.D:)
Won't the polaris be a better gun in that situation? Since the polaris stops the puppy to stop attacking and includes a 3 size clip while the alchemer is stronger in terms with the richoet but has to be aimed at a certain direction to work. But since the polaris has slow bullets, the alchemer could hit 3 times at the time of 2 bullets hit.

To me, it seems that the polaris is better in a gun puppy situation. But I just got that all from reading the guide and haven't played with it so I'm probably sure I'm wrong. But cheers if I'm right. ;l

Sorry if I'm wrong. And if I am, please correct me.

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 22:25

Milkman

Well if you are doing full

Well if you are doing full combos the nova driver will surely win (essentially 4 hits with internal ricochets vs. 3 hits with the polaris). That's not even counting the fact that 3 shots will probably take longer than 2.

If you pause before the final bullet in the clip the alchemer gets 1 bullet (which becomes 2 hits with internal ricochets) whilst the polaris gets 2 bullets (and that stays as 2 hits). I'm assuming it will be faster (if only slightly) for the alchemer 'combo'.

I don't know of any combo per minutes data on the wiki or elsewhere for these guns but testing can be done easily in the ATH.

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 22:38

Jacxis

Dodgers and piercing guns

Just a couple of clarifications:

1. From what I read on the wiki and the forums, I get the impression that dodgers don't avoid callahan rounds and simply get knocked down. Am I right?

2. Dodgers still dodge attacks from the needle line guns, but sometimes they get interrupted and/or bounced upwards by the attacks. Again, is this right?

3. I also get the impression that the guns from the antigua line cannot reliably hit dodgers. Is that right?

Thanks in advance =)

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 22:38

Demonicsothe

My nitpicking

Magnus bullets are not slow. That's kinda the reason they hit dodgers. Also, specify what knockdown is for the people who don't understand knockdown vs knockback. Perhaps include a mention of the iron slug, so people know that there is a normal damage side of magnus line.

In pure aoe, I believe biohazard wins. However, if you are talking about the ricochets, that needs to be specified. And I don't agree with ricochets being aoe effect. I believe those need to be labeled under something different, but that is a personal idea.

Specify the families that the AP is superior over other elemental weapons. Zombies are weak to elemental, and thus a full elemental weapon would deal more damage, instead of the slight bonus by a non full elemental weapon. It might do well against kats, but still loses out in damage compared to alchemers. Constructs resist piercing, thus the damage overall is lower than neutral. Fiends like devilites dodge, which reduces overall dps. Trojans will almost never take a full clip. Same thing for Sentenzas. Wolvers and gremlins dodge, which needs to be taken into account when using Sentenza. With the dodge, you almost always can't fire off an entire clip without missing.

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 23:32

Demonicsothe

@Ultimate-Ninja

Polaris loses out in dps compared to alchemers because alchemers do not hinder its own subsequent shots. I believe the polaris will do about the same damage as an alchemer in experienced hands. You can still clip ricochets on puppies. Easier, actually, since they are stationary.

Polaris is better than alchemers on puppies because they interrupt, which alchemers can't. And the fact that you don't need to aim well to hit something is a bonus for beginning players. Spam shots in the general puppy direction, you'll probably hit something.

Common mistake is to assume alchemers are weak due to the 2 shot clip compared to 3 from polaris. But anyone who is half experienced with alchemers can generally land a ricochet every two shots, and clipping the ricochet is almost a requirement for pure gunners, as alchemers provide the most reliable form of damage in all situations, minus dodgers.

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 23:48

#10

Otaia

I just spent the last couple

I just spent the last couple of days levelling a Sentenza for Lockdown and future use as a possible Shadow gun and I have absolutely no issues fighting Gremlins and Wolvers with it. Sentenza is a fine weapon for both and I disagree with the statement that Callahan can outDPS it on those monsters. Ever since the patch that increased the cooldown on dodging to 4 seconds, Gremlins don't really dodge enough to make aiming at them with any weapon very difficult. Least of all Sentenza, as it doesn't really matter if you miss one shot, you've got 5 more to fire while that Gremlin is standing still. Wolvers do a lot more teleporting than dodging. It's not at all difficult to turn around mid-clip and continue firing at a Wolvers that teleported behind you. It is pretty much impossible to land the charge shot on Wolvers, but that's not a big deal.

Devilites aren't particularly difficult to hit with an AP, either, but in that situation you are likely to miss with more than just an occasional bullet. But no, I don't have any issues using an Antigua against dodgers. The main issue with Antiguas is just the lack of AoE.

PS I actually like the Sentenza/Alchemer setup quite a lot and although it doesn't work as well as the standard 3 gun setup, it only requires 2 guns to cover pretty much everything and it's pretty well-rounded and fun to play. AP/Umbra would possibly work as well.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 00:15

#11

Demonicsothe

Sentenza/Alchemer: Effective

Sentenza/Alchemer: Effective damage against undeads and constructs. Somewhat effective against beasts and gremlins. Neutral vs fiends. Neutral/somewhat ineffective vs slime, depending on wether you use alchemer for the neutral or sentenza for the ineffective.

Ap/Umbra: Effective vs gremlins and slimes. Somewhat effective vs undeads and fiends. Neutral to constructs and beasts.

Effective vs 2. Somewhat effective vs 2. Neutral vs 2. The split damage covers weakness of pure specialzed guns. Sounds good, until you notice that with elemental alchemer and umbra, you deal effective vs construct, slime, undead, and gremlins, neutral against beasts(umbra), and neutral against fiends (elemental).

Edit: That's 4 effective and 2 neutral, compared to 2 effective, 2 somewhat, and 2 neutral.

Of course, this is purely on a damage type standpoint, factoring in nothing else .

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 06:44

#12

Carthiah

Disclaimer: I am not a

Disclaimer: I am not a gunner, in fact I identify as primarily a swordsman (with a diverse arsenal nonetheless, but I'm no dedicated gunner.) I do, however, play with a dedicated gunner and a pure bomber on a daily basis, and they are both very well versed in what they do.

My only preliminary issue on this is that you seem very biased against the Polaris and toward the Alchemers. A couple of situations, for example, in which the Polaris is far superior (In my opinion, in every way) to the Alchemers:

In a group with a bomber who likes to use the Electron Vortex: I've heard accounts on multiple occasions that Polaris can be hitting 5+ enemies with each bullet, making for a huge amount of AoE damage from this gun. In addition, the shock status is nice on the first bomb, allowing the bomber to chain Vortexes immediately and easily, rather than possibly unreliably after the first bomb fails to shock it's contents. Given that the contents will be spinning, alchemers will probably (read: PROBABLY) have a really hard time getting all of your ricochets here, or even group ricochets to be honest, as the group is mostly a shapeless mass of monsters.

An experienced player in a room with a lot of corners can herd all of the mobs into a corner with a polaris+shield bumping combo, allowing similar numbers to an electron vortex. While this might be slightly worse in terms of clearing speed vs alchemers, with large groups of enemies and a couple heavy swords in your party, it could also be much faster.

I'm not saying that alchemers are bad, I'm just saying that I think you should re-evaluate your position a little bit regarding Alchemers v. Polaris, to try to avoid bias in an informative guide.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 09:22

#13

The-Rawrcake

Thank you Otaia, I'll change

Thank you Otaia, I'll change the Callahan > Sentenza DPS to just Wolvers unless you can post a video of some significant bullet-hitting on wolvers. Faster firing rate tends to be more dodges from the dodger, and Sentenza cannot knock down, making locking down on a wolver much more difficult. But you can always prove me wrong, just make sure you are talking about tier 3 burrowing wolvers.

@Carthiah - that type of thing is what will be in section 7. Party loadouts / solo loadouts.

I'll attempt to clear up the bias, but alchemers are more realistic than a Polaris in most situations damage-wise just due to its mechanics. Either way, I'll help clear it up.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 10:32

#14

Demonicsothe

@The-Rawrcake

You still need to specify which families the split damage guns are superior compared to pure handguns.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 11:11

#15

The-Rawrcake

Ah, I'll change it from

Ah, I'll change it from "correct families" to that. In my comparisons, they all assume that we all understand how damage types work but most probably won't understand that.

Thanks!

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 11:52

#16

Demonicsothe

I'm still asking you to post

I'm still asking you to post what that correct family is. In my first post, I outlined the problem in your statement

"argen peacemaker is superior to all eemental handguns against the correct family"

Now, I have no idea what these families may be. And it would help to be named,as split damage weapons are confusing to new players. The problem of monsters resisting more damage than they take due to a weakness is not well known by the target audience of your guide, namely the beginning gunslingers.

Edit: You did put the families up, my mistake. However, does the ap out damage the nova against undeads? Pure elemental has a higher increase in effective damage, because the AP is only part elemental. The piercing part will stay neutral.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 12:22

#17

Bopp

DPS of AP vs. Nova

According to these data, Hail Driver does 31 clips per minute, while Argent Peacemaker does 24 clips per minute (with no ASI). Nova Driver is the same speed as Hail Driver, right?

According to the wiki damage data for undead at Depth 28, Nova Driver does 205 damage per shot, so 410 per clip, while Argent does 78 per shot, so 468 per clip.

Combining these figures, we get 212 DPS for Nova Driver and 187 DPS for Argent. So Nova Driver out-damages Argent Peacemaker against undead, at least if you're firing full clips as fast as possible. Oh, and these figures ignore area effects and ricochets.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 12:29

#18

Otaia

The wiki is extremely

The wiki is extremely unreliable for data. I'm almost certain that all those numbers are off by a bit.

I know for a fact that my Sentenza does well over 100 damage to Wolvers at D28, and if the 28% damage bonus from +4 damage holds true it should be doing around 90 damage without bonuses.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 13:22

#19

Tenkii

On catalyzers

This is from another thread, but I felt it better fitting here:
[context: choosing Umbra driver over Biohazard]
The catalyzer / Biohazard line is difficult to use and leaves you vulnerable because the gun is all about chain charging (and charging is the most vulnerable time for a gunner) so the alchemer is much easier to use and safer.

The rest is valid, but honestly, overusing the charge is the big mistake so many people do with catalyzers.
Vs 1 monster: Use regular shots
Vs small group: 1 charge - 1 detonation shot
Vs large group: Many charges - wait for them to group together - detonate.

I have this hunch that if 2+ people have catalyzers, then chain charging will be more effective, but I never really run into other people who have catalyzers so I haven't gotten the chance to try. :x

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 13:36

#20

Squishat

Just glanced a bit..

But from what I see here:

Hail Driver - Elemental alchemer gun. Sacrifices raw damage for freeze status. Can re-freeze Ice Cubes. Can return lit oilers to their normal state. Hail Driver is superior to every elemental alchemer in survivability. Hail Driver is inferior to every elemental alchemer in single target DPS. Disadvantage on frost themed enemies in comparison to other alchemers.

I think you need to add in that the shots will break the original freeze. Or something like that.

Plague Needle - Piercing needle autogun. Bullets can hit dodgers. Trades raw damage for poison status (which can be made up for by weakening an enemy's defenses). Disadvantage against poison themed enemies in comparison to Blitz Needle. Provides more utility for your party. See Blitz Needle above for comparison to Callahan.

As I use this all the time.. it does not make up the raw damage for its poison status, unless in larger groups, and even then a little shoddy. I'd say the blitz is superior in most aspects, not just the non-poisoning on poison themed enemies... (I'll test it on the slags again but I'm pretty sure that it can poison a poison-breathing slag?)

Shaping up nicely! Very informative and I'll read more tomorrow :)

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 14:51

#21

The-Rawrcake

Bopp do you have links to

Bopp do you have links to where the wiki combo tables are at? I cannot find them for my life.

@Squishat, that is a given, I am assuming we know about freeze and general stuff about SK.

Hail Driver, you have to learn how to not un-freeze dudes for kiting. That's the big thing about it. My favorite alchemer is Hail driver, which I will be explaining its significance on Vana when I get to it, but you just need to learn how to control the freeze.

For the Plague Needle, I was mainly going off of party utility, but I will clean it up.

Bopp, once I see those tables then I'll also clean up the AP / Sentenza part.

The gun comparisons will be the harriest part of the guide.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 14:59

#22

Bopp

wiki damage tables

The-Rawrcake, as you probably know, each weapon's wiki page has a damage table for it. So see the articles "Nova Driver" and "Argent Peacemaker". There aren't many data for guns, sadly. And see Otaia's reservations in post #18.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 15:30

#23

Merethif

I'm happy to see someone

I'm happy to see someone starts working on new Gunner's Guide eventually. I hope it will improve/amend/replace infamous Gunslinger Guide we have on wiki atm.
I like the fact that you describe handguns types first, before going to specific weapons.
It helps keep objective part of guide (handguns types descriptions, which is about facts) and more subjective part which describes more personal experience and advised strategies for every handgun.

Several comments (nick-picking) you may find useful (some are purely about style and naming):

General comments:

1. I'd stick with name "handguns" rather then "guns" because that's how it is used in game. I think official names should be used in such guides (only apply if you don't mind using your guide to improve wiki guide at some point)

Section one (I know first part is not finished but I'd like to point out several issues.):

1. I'd name first part "Handguns types" instead of "Gun Mechanics Guide". It sounds more user friendly.

2. Pulsar's bullets don't have knock back. It's their explosions radius that does knock back. Actually you're describing this mechanism later on so that's not deal. But it may be a bit misleading as it is now. Especially that we have Valiance with its bullet's knock back.
I believe it's important to tell about difference between Pulsar's explosions radius knock back and Valiance's bullet knock back.

3. Virulisks are type of Chromas.

4. I would remove notes about specific guns here. Like that Pulsar inflict Shock status and so on. Specific weapons are described in section two. No need to have those information doubled.

Section two:

1. I'd use name "Alchemer*" instead of "Alchemer gun" and "Pulsar" instead of "Pulsar gun" and so on.
*Actually official name would be "alchemical handgun" - this how they are called in all weapon descriptions :-D

2. I can confirm that Valiance can hit dodgers - actually all blasters can. Not as good as Magnus but it's still doable. Plus I don't find Valiance knock back inferior to Pulsar knock back. Ability to knock back enemies who comes at close distance are more important then knocking back enemies that are far, far away because it save gunner from being directly hit, let's say by wolver or mecha knight or greaver. You can knock back enemy who had sneaked close to you and already has started its attack.

Probably will add more commends in the future. I can't be helpful with some guns (Pepperbox, Iron Slug) because I don't have first hand experience with them, but I'll try to contribute whenever I can.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 16:33

#24

The-Rawrcake

Thank you Merethif. I will

Thank you Merethif. I will be cleaning the guide up :)

Section 3 about armor is completed and open for editing.

If you read through it and find out something that is wrong or missing please post below.

Remember, you can still give me suggestions on what to edit for other completed sections (or partially completed sections in section 1's case)

Edit: I cleaned up making it say "handgun" and not saying things like "pulsar guns" as well as made more consistent capitalization.

Thank you Merethif!

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 16:53

#25

Milkman

Section 3

I really didn't like the layout of this section. It just seemed confusing on my first read through. I think it would be better if you had titles (eg. "helms", "armours", "shields", "trinkets") instead of numbering.

I think you should evaluate the usefulness of the swiftstrike buckler.

I think it would also be good if you recommended a few sets of armour (see the Armour section of the Bombing Guide: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Bombing_Guide)

EDIT: And I think you should add in the bit about the Callahan knocking down wolvers and also interrupting other monsters

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 17:04

#26

The-Rawrcake

I will include information

I will include information about Swiftstrike Buckler on levels which aren't very shield needy.

I'll also clean it up sort of how you suggested.

Edit: Cleaned it up. Opinions on how it looks now? I think it is cleaner :)

Edit 2: While damaging a devilite, it is pretty much a rule for everything in the game that they are interrupted.

Have you seen the Callahan interrupting enemies besides Devilites?

Also I remember mentioning knock down under Callahan / Magnus in section 1 and mayve even 2. If you missed it, then that means I did not make it clear enough.

Thank you!

Also, note that I will be making a New and Free Player Friendly Armor guide part of section 3 soon.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 17:13

#27

Milkman

-Ok looks better now. If you

-Ok looks better now. If you ever wikify this, I'm sure you'll be able to make it look even neater.

-Missed that point in section 1

-Good to see that you're making a new and f2p armour guide

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 18:44

#28

Otaia

Regarding the use of Sentenza

Regarding the use of Sentenza on Wolvers, I made a short video demonstrating it here: http://youtu.be/1yC5JDF84j8. I fire about 60-70 shots in this video and I believe less than 10 of them missed. Most of the misses were due to my own imperfect mouse accuracy and they probably would have missed even if I was using a Callahan.

This video also shows that my Sentenza does 121 damage to Wolvers at D28 with Very High damage, so I doubt that AP does 78 damage to Undead without damage bonuses at the same depth. Unfortunately, I forgot to bring my Nova Driver, so I don't have a figure to compare it to, but I seem to recall it doing about 250-260 damage at the same depth. It is slightly more than double, in any case. I'm pretty sure Antiguas do slightly more DPS than Alchemers on individual targets with normal attacks, even on targets that the Alchemers are strong against. Using the charge attack and landing internal bounces, or getting a number of regular shots to clip and hit twice should put the Alchemers slightly ahead, though.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 18:56

#29

Milkman

It does 76/8 on Vanaduke. I

It does 76/8 on Vanaduke. I think thats where the 78 came from.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 20:42

#30

The-Rawrcake

That is inaccurate

That is inaccurate information then.

Because Vana resists elemental slightly and is slightly weak to piercing.

So off. So off. I do not want to use the Wiki quite yet.

@Otaia, observe how you did 1 on 1 at the end with that last Wolver. A Callahan could have hit that wolver every single time and knock it down more than just the barking, since it appears everything knocks down wolvers during barking.

It seems that it is a viable weapon to use against wolvers.

I will use this video in the guide if that is ok with you, Otaia. If you do not want it in the guide you can say so, but I will include your name of course :)

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 20:42

#31

Otaia

A friend of mine just tried

A friend of mine just tried shooting a Zombie at Vana and he said it did 95 damage. Assuming the rest of Bopp's numbers are correct, that would put AP's DPS at 228 with no bonuses, which is more in line with what I expected.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 20:51

#32

The-Rawrcake

So it is confirmed! AP is

So it is confirmed! AP is slightly more single target DPS than elemental alchemers on undead!

And Sentenza would be slightly more single target DPS than an umbra on gremlins.

I will leave the comparisons as they are.

Note that this does not include split bullets though :) because you can clip split bullets on one single monster potentially doubling single target DPS (though it is unreliable).

Remember, in my comparison, I included "in a perfect scenario" which is not a dodging enemy. DPS on a dodging enemy completely depends on how many bullets hit and how hard the bullets hit in a period of time for the most possible damage (per second).

Edit: Sorry, I'll clean up the Valiance / whatever section about its knockback.

If someone has a Valiance, please post below commenting on its knockback. It is the one gun I do not have any experience with. Sorry!

night, I'll be back on tomorrow to finish up new player armor part of section 3.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 20:47

#33

Demonicsothe

Rawr, you can't just ignore

Rawr, you can't just ignore the ricochet effect of the alchemers. Note how Bopp said that the damage for the alchemer was excluding ricochet. You can reliably ricochet it at least 1/4 of the time, if not higher.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 20:55

#34

The-Rawrcake

Yes, I edited my above post

Yes, I edited my above post late adding that once I read through it and it sounded weird :) I added "Note that this does not include split bullets though :) because you can clip split bullets on one single monster potentially doubling single target DPS (though it is unreliable)."

Sorry about that.

Anyways if you are talking about a group of monsters scenario, split bullets and then their ricochet can total to be an almost perfect chance that they will hit, though that is if the monsters are grouped up close (as there are a lot that naturally group up close) and you know how to position shots.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 20:53

#35

Bopp

good to know

Thanks to the people who have collected "new" data about the damage of Sentenza/AP. It would be really great if we could update the wiki to reflect these data. We always need more data. Please!

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 20:58

#36

The-Rawrcake

I am too scared that someone

I am too scared that someone will change the wiki numbers to be incorrect again, as I imagine something like that happened for someone to make the damage to undead numbers vanaduke numbers. I wonder if there could be like a "lock" on the wiki, where some things couldn't be edited. That'd be sweet.

Are only certain people allowed to edit the wiki or is everyone allowed to? I've never really tried it so I guess I wouldn't know...

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 22:27

#37

Milkman

Wiki wiki Slim Shady

Anyone can edit the wiki with a spiral knights account. However if it is linked to steam you will have to create a new account to do so (its bugged).

The valiance does have a smaller knockback (thats what I thought you were referring to when you said 'inferior'). However that makes it so much better compared to the polaris's explosion (at least I think so) because it is much more controllable. So perhaps note that its knockback has more utility? And as Merethif said, you can employ knockback at close range.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 15:12

#38

The-Rawrcake

But then you can argue the

But then you can argue the whole goal of knockback is survivability. A Valiance doesn't have the AoE radius for easier knockback so Valiance has smaller knockback as well as weaker knockback.

Keep in mind that one doesn't whip out one's Polaris or Supernova for damaging things, they are either DPSing a boss, taking out a pack of Devilites, killing gun puppies, or using its knockback for survivability. So a controlled knockback wouldn't be necessary.

Valiance is an entirely different gun: Its purpose is to damage your every day mob, so a controlled knockback makes sense. when you are using a Valiance

It seems that someone would want to take the Supernova when it comes to the best knockback gun for survivability.

But what is your use for Valiance's knockback, Milkman? If it is solely survivability where you use knockback, I am thinking about keeping the "inferior" but mention that Valiance can knockback close range, while you have to use a Supernova's charge attack to knock back close range, and knock back more.

If you can provide another use besides survivability where a smaller, weaker knockback is more beneficial then I will clean it up in Valiance's favor, though I do not have enough reasoning just yet.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 15:55

#39

Carthiah

Requesting a couple of

Requesting a couple of things:
A detailed explanation of the statistical upgrades, specifically gunner ASI. I've heard a lot of contradictory things about what it does and does not do, and I'd like some factual answers which can be backed up. (I've heard people say it affects reload, others say it doesnt affect reload but the shooting animation time, others say bullet speed, etc. Some of these I've even read in other gunslinger guides, and it's confusing as hell.)

Also would like to see more shields and their possible uses: Are normal shields useless? What about dragon scale - I've heard that the dragon scale shield's only use is for gunners. Why? etc.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 18:48

#40

The-Rawrcake

Back when there weren't

Back when there weren't arsenal stations, it made sense to have a Dragon Scale Shield.

This was because of the most threatening attacks to us being pure elemental and pure piercing.

Now though, we can switch level to level.

Beast arena? no problem, throw on pierce def gear and have some normal backup. Normal does indeed help us because a ton of attacks deal normal from a lot of monsters.

ASI does affect reload speed and fire rate. Nothing else. I am not going to post anything yet because there are some people that equipped low ASI compared to their no ASI and stated on the wiki that "it does not affect reload speed" ... obviously based on their observations... Now it is apparent when actual gunners can compare Maximum! to nothing.

Because I want to reduce the spam of people just going by what the wiki says (even though a ton of stuff on it is inaccurate, especially with guns) I'll refrain from getting too into detail so people cannot refer to the wiki and get mad at me for using false information.

(God forbid their wiki actually being inaccurate or based on false observations)

For the time being, refer to everyone's posts here. Not the wiki :) I'd rather not have this guide be on the wiki. Having false editing would make me upset, especially since my experience with dedicated wiki members shows that at least some of them are hypocrites accusing me of giving them false observations. It'd just be nice if I could finish this guide here and get help here so I can refer people to it when they need gunner help is my whole goal. Again, thank you so much to everyone that is helping me notice stuff that is off / sounds weird.

Sorry I did not get to working on the guide today. I'll get to the new player armor as soon as I can. Week days are busy.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 19:26

#41

Otaia

"This was because of the most

"This was because of the most threatening attacks to us being pure elemental and pure piercing."

Not really, piercing was almost completely useless until they added Polyps. The only thing you needed piercing defense for was Alpha Wolvers. It's still the worst defense in the game.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 19:26

#42

Trying

No the old teleporting

No the old teleporting wolvers with autotracking could easily nail a gunner

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 19:27

#43

Milkman

I find valiance knockback

I find valiance knockback easier to apply effectively (compared to polaris knockback which arguably requires more practice/skill). Because its easier to control its easier to keep the monster at a distance while doing a constant steam of damage. I find that it's much more effective vs a single target than the polaris.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 22:21

#44

The-Rawrcake

@Otaia they added polyps

@Otaia they added polyps before they added arsenal stations.

Piercing was arguably more important than normal if you were good at dodging. And yes, before the nerfing to the wolvers, it helped to have piercing defense for stealthy wolvers.

I can understand there you get the worst defense in the game, but that doesn't mean it isn't necessary. I still suggest someone to get, for example, Justifier as well as Nameless for a future non-Shadow Lair piercing dealing Tier 3 boss as well as it only makes sense to switch into piercing gear for things like polyp arenas / jello levels and wolver dens. Especially with arsenal stations, it makes sense to have a wider arsenal more than ever.

@Milkman, "while doing a constant steam of damage." / "find that it's much more effective vs a single target than the polaris."

it sounds like you are describing a Valiance's use (not just survivability but also to take down every day monsters) instead of a Pulsar's use (survivability when used on every day monsters, and usually on big groups instead of single target for survivability). If one needed control while killing something or wasn't keeping a big mob away from them, they could use a weapon without knockback. It makes sense to not want knockback to be ridiculous on a Valiance. Not so much a Pulsar - they are entirely different guns.

"compared to polaris knockback which arguably requires more practice/skill"

I'll say yes in a group, but Pulsars are not group-oriented guns. If you do use it in a group, it is either a specific setting (like someone has a vortex bomb / everyone is using a Pulsar are two examples) or you are using it to pick off single monsters. That is, when used on every day monsters. Pulsars still have their uses on devilites, gun puppies, and bosses.

A Pulsar is fairly simple to learn solo in my opinion, but this is just my opinion which yours might differ.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 23:23

#45

Milkman

I play in groups more often

I play in groups more often than solo so that might be our difference.

And I'm not entirely sure what you are saying in that paragraph addressed to me. I think maybe you are misreading my stance on the valiance? I think the knockback on the Valiance is perfect (not too big, not too small). It keeps the monsters at a distance, but doesn't knock them every which way.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 14:42

#46

Irokwe

Great guide^^

Not gonna say that you spelled some stuff wrong cuz we all know what you mean.

So, nova>other ele. alchemers?

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 15:46

#47

The-Rawrcake

There isn't necessarily one

There isn't necessarily one alchemer that you should go for because it is the best. Hail Driver has the best survivability (more of a solo gun than a group gun) while Storm has the best group utility.

All drivers are inferior to Nova in DPS - Magma, it is hard to tell where that one fits in. There really hasn't been a ton of testing on it, or even Nova.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 07:34

#48

Irokwe

So if l were to pick one gun for group and party play everywhere

What would it be?

Also, which alchemer (not pulsar) should l choose as a sidearm for a sworder (?)? For a Bomber?

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 11:08

#49

Pepperonius

Gunslinger Checking In

Damn fine guide you have there, Rawrcakes. There are some great points made, and I agree with the vast majority of what you said. The points I disagree with (there are very few) are mainly based on conjecture and opinion. Your facts are excellent.

@Odin if you are playing swordsman or bomber and you absolutely want an alchemer, I suggest Storm Driver. Shock is one of the handier statuses. Magma is a great one for sheer damage, and hail is nice for freeze, but magma doesnt stop your enemies from moving, and hail bullets can break their own freeze. Nova is great damage, but no status.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 19:30

#50

The-Rawrcake

Perronius, what are the

Perronius, what are the opinion parts which you did not like? All criticism is constructive :)

Also, sorry I haven't been able to finish up the guide. I am busy on the week days, and will get to it on the weekend.

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