Spiral Knights - Utility/Support Weaponry

Utility/Support Weaponry

17 replies [Last post]

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 19:41

Cactuscat

At the risk of being unheard, but placating my fantasies, I've decided to develop this thread with some ideas that add a support role to the game.

On a first note, my original intention for every one of these ideas was that they would be Bombs. However, some could easily be applied to Swords and Guns, as well. For this reason, I'll detail each idea with a general theme, then list how you could apply each of them to an individual weapons line.

Offensive/Defensive Matrix
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These would be a series of support devices, that grant increased offensive or defensive power to the Knights affected. My original idea was that there would be two lines, and each would offer a straight %-based boost - however, instead, there could also be many different lines, each that affect a specific line (such as sword-boost, normal-defense, elemental-defense, etc). The downside of that, is that there would be a whole lot of weapons to add, to hit every base.

For bombs - A long charged device, that when placed, unleashes an AoE aura. Knights who stand within the aura gain the Offensive/Defensive buff, so long as they remain in the radius. Higher * levels have larger radiuses, and the strength and duration of the aura increase as you level the devices with Heat.

For guns - Could be similar to a medigun in looks/style. A Knight could shoot another, granting them the buff as a status for a short duration. Maybe the device has to be channeled on a player, or it could have to be charged first.

For swords - A syringe-type sword. Charge release grants allies the buff. Alternatively, this could be used as a debuffer, that weakens enemies when hit.
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Vital Essence Extractor Device (V.E.E.D.)
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This could be a healing device, without being unfair. The main idea of this device is that it would leave a status on enemies, and if the enemies are killed while they are affected, they have an increased chance at dropping hearts. This way, you can get some bonus healing, but not an overt amount, and it requires risk/enemies - you couldn't just use it to full heal between every battle.

For bombs - These could go two ways: the standard explosions, or the haze way. If it went the explosion route, on blast, it'd affect all enemies hit with this life-taking status. Or, if it went the haze bomb route, it'd leave a cloud that had a chance to afflict the enemies the status.

For guns/swords - Similar to other current weapons, they'd merely have a chance to inflict the life-taking status on enemies hit with the weapons.
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Portable Ostensibly Dainty Shield (P.O.D.S.)
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*Bomb Only*
Akin to the Guardian of Lockdown in some manner, after charging and laying down, it'd leave a small shield that absorbs attacks. Essentially, a bubble of safety for players - however, it could only withstand so many hits and break. Melee attacks CAN be absorbed, although enemies can easily move through the barrier and attack from within. Higher * levels increase the radius of the shield, and the minimum strength - heat levels increase its overall strength.
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Tiny Immobile Mecha (T.I.M.)
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*Bomb Only*
These would be portable ranged turrets that a player could charge, and then place. They'd be fairly weak and shoot slow, but they'd allow for some additional damage while moving around, should you be able to place them. The devices can be attacked and destroyed, although enemies should aggro to Knights as the first priority. As a safe measure to stop abuse, the turrets should only attack enemies if the player is attacking them, or the enemies are attacking. Higher * levels, along with heat levels, increase range, damage, and the attacks a turret can sustain before being destroyed. The devices would also have a duration, and would not last indefinitely.
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Overall, these kinds of devices would implement more ways for a player to play. A person could go a support route, bringing along multiple devices - or players could split duty and each bring devices to help out. It'd allow a gunner to have a fortified position, or a bomber to have some bonus damage while hes running around placing bombs.

I understand that there could be trickiness in balancing their strength, so that they don't become absolutely "required", but obviously they should provide a decent enough benefit for players who bring them along.

Thoughts, comments, questions, concerns, dislike, etc. are all welcome. Thanks for reading thus far, if you have!

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 21:08

Nova-Royal

i like the concept, the V.E.E.D. and the matrix.
the T.I.M. should be open to everybody. and i dont think the P.O.D.S. would work well.
(i know its not a great review :p)

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 21:50

Severage

Erm..

First of all I would just like to mention that I will likely disagree with any boosts to statuses, even if you have to use a new set of weapons for it.

Reasons:

1) It would reduce the need for Punch's crown sink.
2) It would also increase CE used for a good time, maybe permanently. Decreasing crown sinks + Increasing CE sinks = bad for economy.
3) It makes the Clockworks...too easy.

While the V.E.E.D is a sneaky way of implementing more healing, I think most enemies drop more than enough hearts and Pills. Plus, you get a free heal every 4 depths up to Tier 3 so I don't really see the need for even more healing.

P.O.D.S have been mentioned before (Not under the same name, of course), and I really don't like the idea. While it could be overpowered against a single enemy, or two enemies, a few mobs attacking it could break it too quickly. There's no way to balance something like that imo. Shields are very effective as they are.

T.I.M's would have to have a cooldown. Even as "weak" as you tried to make them, 4 people could lay down 4 T.I.M.'s then switch to heavy weapons. No good. Although I don't see this happening, if it did, it'd need a 100% chance to curse only the T.I.M. bomb for a fair amount of time; can't think of any other way to make a cooldown.

Overall, -1.

~Sev

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 22:56

Skold-The-Drac

Just going to put something here

T.I.M.'s are in essence pets in my mind, and honestly if you can't deal with the occasional mecha knight drop as is... I think there's an issue.
Pls read
i'm not trying to be a mini-mod, just trying to make sure energy is placed in a direction that is SK. If not Nick, I can name quite a few T3 players that know the game extremely well that will tell you that this system can result in "THIS IS TOO EASY" threads and many other issues... one of those players being the poster above me.
I'm also not trying to degrade you or your idea, I'm just saying that this would take much challenge out of the game in no time for people who can and will exploit all the things this thread suggests.

Mon, 02/06/2012 - 23:47

Aemicus

Vital Essence Extractor

Vital Essence Extractor Device (V.E.E.D.)

Eh... I like some of the suggestions, but I think the health system is perfect right now. More hearts being dropped would make the levels too easy.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 00:49

Cactuscat

Thanks for the feedback.I'll

Thanks for the feedback.

I'll comment first on the T.I.M.'s:

"T.I.M's would have to have a cooldown. Even as "weak" as you tried to make them, 4 people could lay down 4 T.I.M.'s then switch to heavy weapons. No good. Although I don't see this happening, if it did, it'd need a 100% chance to curse only the T.I.M. bomb for a fair amount of time; can't think of any other way to make a cooldown."

I'm not sure I understand the problem with players all utilizing them. In my mind, it'd be no different than players all bringing appropriately powerful 5* gear. And I agree, I don't think they should be things that can be spammed. Only allowing a player to place one would make sense, as well. They could program a cooldown-based system, or do a check to only allow 1 turret per unique player - after all, it is their job to do the coding, not ours. :)

As for comments regarding it making things easier:

"If not Nick, I can name quite a few T3 players that know the game extremely well that will tell you that this system can result in "THIS IS TOO EASY" threads and many other issues... one of those players being the poster above me."

1) Its all relative, in the first place.
2) Making it easier, isn't such a terrible thing.
3) Has Nick commented on the idea of any kind of pets?

Now, yes, I agree there is a line that can be drawn and shouldn't be crossed. However, I don't believe an immobile turret falls into a whole pet category of its own, much less one that could drastically turn the games difficulty upside down - its possible to find the balance, I wouldn't be so quick to just go "eh, can't work at all!"

As for the V.E.E.D.:
More fair criticism. I mainly suggested that as a way of adding a healing element, without being overpowered and just "Here, free hearts after charging!" I'd agree that our current healing is probably more than ideal, but as least personally for me, sometimes I find myself with little to no health dropping for an extended period.

On status boosts:
I hadn't thought of economy effects as much. Albeit, I'm of the mindset that likes the idea of reducing reliance on UVs - chanced based progression really irks me, regardless if its the basis of economy. In the end though, I think we're always going to see increased CE costs, as they continue to add content to the game; we can see this already with new weapon and armor lines, and soon to be Mission systems. So in terms of balancing the economy in that respect, I don't think they'd be clueless - they've been dealing with it thus far, and they can continue to do so.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 04:14

Severage

Blah.

Making it easier, has already happened. I really don't think this game needs to get any easier.

"However, I don't believe an immobile turret falls into a whole pet category of its own, much less one that could drastically turn the games difficulty upside down - its possible to find the balance"

I think you're a day late and a dollar short. They had an immobile turret in mind before, but instead of adding it as a weapon they put it in specific areas in specific levels that cost 5E to activate. Imagine them taking that and making it a usable weapon. Judging by what they did with the current turret, I don't think that they'll do this.

No doubt that if they *do* happen to put this in the game, it would be tweaked very carefully...but that amount of labor over such a thing may be more than it's worth.

@V.E.E.D.: Sometimes yes, because hearts no doubt drop on a % rate, and I think it's fine as is. Sometimes you get more of a challenge, sometimes hearts drop like mad. The best way to play this game is to be able to make it through under any circumstances. I'll give you credit though, this is the...*least* preposterous idea on healing..but I still don't think it's necessary.

@Status Boosts: I am all with you there..I crafted more than 30 Brandishes on Mist to finally get a decent UV, so that's half a month of having to run on CE (Low profit runs, generally speaking), and Punch always trolls me. Nevertheless, I don't think we should attempt to add problems to the economy. No doubt they're not clueless, doing things such as permanently bringing out the Elevator Pass was a gutsy move. Still, this generates no profit for them (Unlike EPs) and can be potentially damaging...not to mention..I'm of the mind that it would make most levels a bit easy.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

~Sev

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 05:14

Zephyrgon

I had an idea about portable turrets. It's called the constructor series. I like your other ideas though.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 05:40

Asukalan

OMG, yet another thread with

OMG, yet another thread with healing weapon.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 18:37

Cactuscat

@Severage: Appreciate the

@Severage: Appreciate the feedback again!

Yeah, I know about those turrets - at least for me, I think it'd be awesome to place those, instead of just oddly finding them. I suppose you could correlate those as their 'testing' of such devices... but did they really turn out that bad? I mean, I know they aren't that useful - but those turrets have been the same (as far as I can remember, anyhow) for the longest time. I'm sure some tweaks and they'd be perfectly acceptable - just a small bit of additional damage, I can't imagine it making the game THAT much easier. After all, you'd have to sacrifice a weapon slot for it. Even 4 wouldn't mean things are dying super fast either.

I'll agree with you that in general, more healing isn't necessary at this point in time. I suppose it was more a suggestion on how they could implement a reasonable healing system, should the need ever arise.

As for the economy, fair enough. It'd definitely change things - if the status bonuses are too weak, they'd be worthless, and if they are too strong, they'd become necessary and force CE and crown expenditures. I already dislike the prices... however, I'm of the mind the game play benefits outweigh the potential economy problems.

@Asukalanforum: Thanks for the constructive feedback. If you'd note, though, it's probably not the healing weapon you're probably used to being suggested.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 18:43

#10

Aemicus

@Cactuscat You'll notice, by

@Cactuscat You'll notice, by reading other posts that Asukalanforum has commented on, that he is in fact being sarcastic. No one wants a healing weapon.

The defense boost matrix is pretty cool though.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 19:06

#11

Cactuscat

@Aemicus: And you'll notice

@Aemicus: And you'll notice (although I suppose I failed in communicating it) that I, too, was being sarcastic, as he provided nothing of value for feedback. =)

Also, there are clearly some who want a healing weapon of sorts - why else would you see it suggested so much that people respond to it so negatively?

We can argue its merits and its effects on game play - that is why I offered the solution I made here, as a sort of compromise. It is not direct healing, and it requires risk/combat. However, as I already stated, I agree healing is fine where it is - for now. It is merely an idea for a healing-type of weapon.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 19:28

#12

Aemicus

People aren't responding

People aren't responding negatively because it has been suggested often, but because it would make the game waaaay to easy. And, yeah, I haven't read many posts by you so I have no idea when your being sarcastic.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 19:58

#13

Cactuscat

I just disagree with the

I just disagree with the assertion that ANY form of bonus healing would suddenly and drastically reduce the game's difficulty.

I'll admit I am newer, as I've only returned recently, and I obviously can't hope to speak for every player. For myself, my experience has been a bit troublesome in Tier 3, and sometimes I'd just wish there was an extra heart or two around for that next battle. Am I the only one like this? I doubt it. All the same, are there people who think the game is easy enough as it is? Definitely, and they wouldn't be wrong either.

I don't know the disparity in this game between the casuals and the hardcore, but it is always tricky to balance between the two. My absolute favorite games of all time are the MOBA/ARTS genre - DotA 2, LoL, HoN. I can safely say I'm much stronger at those games than I am SK, but I always find it disturbing when the developers note that they balance for the high-end tournament and competitive players exclusively. Obviously it makes business sense, but then you run into game components, that while weak or fair in higher level play, become ridiculously dominant against players of a lower caliber.

Though, for this game, the case may be more about balancing between rich/paying players, and free2play players, instead.

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 22:25

#14

Severage

@Cactuscat:

The distinguishable traits between the Hardcore and the casual are quite simple. First off, SK used to be a lot more casual than it is today. No doubt OOO had a bit less income coming their way, too, thus why it has changed.

I think, though, that the separation between the two is this (Represented by Hardcore person #1, casual player #2):

1) Used to run on CE to grind out those extra runs or to look for recipes, now uses an Elevator Pass, and probably has no use to run CW anymore; or, is focusing on Shadow Lairs.

2) Runs on Mist alone, and basically runs Jelly King as much as possible for the high crown payout and decent heat levels; or, buys 100 CE to run Jelly King, making just a couple thousand crown profit (Depending on CE prices) and to get some recipes.

1) Rolls UVs all day on Punch to get that tie-breaker bonus for PvP, the most "Hardcore"-related part of Spiral Knights.

2) Only plays LD when necessary, probably just to get some Krogmos for a heart pendant which he is saving CE for.

Clearly, the "hardcore" and the "casual" players are based on Pay-to-Play and Free-To-Play. The clockworks has a relatively low Skill Cap. Because of this, F2Pers can reach it. Lockdown, on the other hand, adds what I term "unnatural longevity" to the game, by causing competition in the game, thus making you run Clockworks just for crowns/materials that allow you to play Lockdown more effectively. Lockdown also takes much longer to "beat" than the Clockworks...mainly because you can't "beat" it. Therefore you try to get better at it, and roll UVs with any extra crowns you might get, and pick up the best gear you can come up with, and spend CE on Trinkets as well.

I, myself, am F2P. I have watched newbie after newbie far surpass me multiple times. Proto-geared players becoming SL players in weeks, while it took me over a month to achieve Tier-3 status. This game is, really, built off of the differences between P2P and F2P.

PS: Sorry, I suppose that was too much text and kinda derailed your thread. My bad.

~Sev

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 22:49

#15

Cactuscat

No worries. I don't mind at

No worries. I don't mind at all - the point of the forums is for interesting discussions, and that's what is happening here. :P

I'll definitely agree with you on your distinction. It kind of makes me sad that the current end game is all about the "carrot-on-a-stick"... though, seriously, what MMO isn't? They need something for players to always be striving for to keep them playing - I just wish it was more focused on the gameplay. OOO seems to understand this, and the Mission system is indicative of that. Content like that will always be appreciated (especially new bosses).

Of course, even with that, the ultimate end game will still be "farm, try to get best equipment, rinse and repeat". Though, this system isn't necessarily bad, especially if its fun to grind for that gear... but as with all things, they get boring after some time without something new and fresh.

Now that I think about it, its eery how similar it is to the end game of most of MMO's. On the surface, they look different (and SK no doubt plays much more differently as well), but the underlying systems are still the same.

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 17:44

#16

Severage

Truedat.

Yeah..I think OOO made a wise business decision for bringing out Lockdown. Some pay-to-play players just like to collect mountains of gear, but I think they started losing some P2Pers when the CW became so repetitive. Lockdown brought a lot of them back, as well as creating competition in there, and making them purchase more items (Ragecrafting/rolling for UVs, mostly).

But I'm certainly glad the Missions system is coming out. It'll bring more life into the CW again besides grinding the few Boss-runs for Heat/Crowns, to play LD. lol

~Sev

Wed, 02/08/2012 - 18:46

#17

Orangeo

"It would reduce the need for

"It would reduce the need for Punch's crown sink."
Not if it was able to exceed the base cap.
I'm against the V.E.E.D, becuase controling enemy drops is strange in general to me. T.I.M.'s should be like knightbots, not actual weapons. The matrix makes sense, a AOE stype bomb like the shivermist that strengthens allies would be useful, though adding ASI/CTR could be odd. I'd leave it to offense/defense.

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Utility/Support Weaponry