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Damage Calculations - Split vs Pure [Updated with RSS Damage Data]

8 replies [Last post]
Sun, 02/12/2012 - 19:37
Culture's picture
Culture

Since the Antigua and Crystal lines could soon be switched from split to pure damage, I thought it would be a good time to go over how this damage is calculated once again since it isn't done in the manner one would assume. A while ago I wrote about the relationship of damage between various split/pure swords, particularly looking at Acheron vs Final Flourish. It was all speculation based on some brief observations. I was satisfied with my findings and I didn't bother to look into it further.

To summarize, pure damage weapons only have a slightly larger damage bonus compared to split damage weapons. But they do have the huge penalties for being pure. Let's take a look at the "old" split damage RSS at Depth 14:

F = Fiend, U = Undead, etc. Second line is percent change compared to neutral

F.. U.. B/C G/S
120 102 75 50
60% 36% -- 66%

So against Undead, which are weak to elemental and neutral to piercing, it has a 36% bonus. Making the HUGE assumption that the damage is actually split half elemental and half piercing, that means the elemental portion has a bonus of 72% as shown below:
37.5 + 1.72*37.5 = 102 Undead Damage

Now for the "new" RSS which its pure damage at Depth 14:
F.. B.. G/U C/S
126 109 78 18
62% 40% --- 23%

So the damage calculation for Beasts is 1.4*78 = 109. Why is the bonus for piercing now 40%? Wasn't it 72% in the split damage bomb just a moment ago? The damage to Beasts should be 134 not 109 if the bonus remained the same. Not only that, but the penalty for being pure is now 23% to Constructs/Slimes, which is what we would actually expect when compared to the penalty from the split damage RSS.

I'm at a loss as to why this happens. If I had to guess I would say that it might have something to do with the way monster defense works rather than some sort of unfair bonuses being purposely applied to pure weapons. The result though is unfortunate, a pure weapon is only slightly better than a split weapon vs its intended target. Against unintended foes, it does much worse.

Note that the base damage of the RSS might have been raised slightly, in this case about 4%, or it might just be the result of the way defense is calculated for split vs pure, who knows.

Mon, 02/13/2012 - 04:15
#1
Paweu's picture
Paweu
Errrr, there is no monster

Errrr, there is no monster family that is neutral to both piercing and elemental. I mean, there is only three types of damage and the monster has either no, some or major resistance against respective damage type.
Try assuming that there is no such a thing as bonuses (i.e. the orange numbers that people take as bonus damage) and instead start with pure piercing weapons - assume that it does 100% of its potential damage against beasts and fiends and take that as starting point, then you can slowly crunch down specialised/normal weapons and then in the end finally the specialised/specialised ones. Oh, and. Assume that no monsters have normal defense

Mon, 02/13/2012 - 04:58
#2
Eeyup's picture
Eeyup
Wrong.

Drones are neutral to all damage types.
Also burning Oilers are resistant to both Piercing and Elemental. There, you now have something to test on.

Mon, 02/13/2012 - 05:28
#3
Merethif's picture
Merethif
@Eeyup

@Eeyup
Also burning Oilers are resistant to both Piercing and Elemental.

Really? Why? Anyone can confirm that?

Mon, 02/13/2012 - 05:39
#4
Eeyup's picture
Eeyup
Wiki

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lichen#Oiler

"When set on fire Oilers gain elemental resist"
And I can confirm that from all the Oilers you can find in FSC.

Mon, 02/13/2012 - 09:47
#5
Culture's picture
Culture
Ugg

See, this is why I shouldn't write posts late at night x_x Trying this again with D for Drones for the old RSS at Depth 14...

F.. U.. D. B/C G/S
120 102 77 75. 50
56% 32% -- 98% 75%

The bonus to undead compared to drones (which are neutral to both piercing/elemental) is 32.4%. Which means that the piercing half of the damage gets a 65% bonus. Compare that to the bonus that the pure piercing version of RSS receives of 40%, as in the original post.

The point is (haha) going to pure piercing from elemental/piercing or normal/piercing doesn't double the bonus to weak enemies. This is because pure weapons receive a smaller bonus compared to their split counterparts.

Mon, 02/13/2012 - 17:12
#6
Antistone's picture
Antistone
Oh, it's WAY weirder than that

Chronovore did a great analysis of damage type bonuses/penalties here. It's a lot weirder and more complicated than I would have guessed.

As you've noticed, for most bombs and swords, it basically boils down to "50% special is about the same as 100% special when the monster is weak, and lots better when the monster is resistant." In some cases, 50% special weapons actually seem to do MORE damage to vulnerable monsters than 100% special weapons.

It changes depending on the weapon's base damage, though. Most guns seem to be in the range where being 100% special is actually an advantage (if the target is weak to that damage type)--though the advantage is still less than you would probably guess.

Split special damage where the target is weak to one type and resistant to the other looks like it should actually be better than doing pure normal damage on most weapons--but Argent Peacemaker and Sentenza have abnormally low base damage (compensating for their high fire rate) and are just below the threshold where this would become true.

Of course, this is all theory and conjecture based on a curve-fit of empirical measurements from a wide range of sources. The devs still refuse to tell us how anything actually works, so I don't know how they expect us to offer any useful opinions when they ask us whether eliminating dual-damage weapons is a good idea.

Mon, 02/13/2012 - 18:21
#7
Culture's picture
Culture
Wow

Not sure how I missed that thread. Oh, I was playing Skyrim... haha. Um. That incredibly insightful, I'm glad yall did that work.

RSS is a 4* bomb (so these 5* formulas might not apply exactly) but damage to Undead is 230 right now at D28, that's around the area where half effective is better than pure effective (last graph). So switching RSS to pure piercing might lower damage to Fiends in T3. (And also Beasts compared to the current Undead damage.)

Bizarre.

At least the Antigua-lines should benefit tremendously from the change, if I'm reading the charts right.

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 00:44
#8
Culture's picture
Culture
RSS Damage

So here's some damage numbers at various depths. Old bomb on top, new bomb on bottom. As Paweu noted, Beast/Construct for the old bomb does not equal neutral damage. But I don't have much drone damage on the original RSS, so it'll have to sit in for now.

Depth 5
F. U. BC GS
54 46 33 24
59 ?? 40 8
F. B. GU CS

Depth 9
F.. U. BC GS
115 97 68 48
111 ?? 77 15
F.. B. GU CS

Depth 12
F.. U. BC GS
115 98 71 48
120 ?? 78 17
F.. B. GU CS

Depth 14
F.. U.. BC GS
120 102 75 50
126 109 78 18
F.. B.. GU CS

Depth 19
F.. U.. BC. GS
189 159 118 76
192 ??? 121 ??
F.. B.. GU. CS

Depth 22
F.. U.. BC. GS
267 216 161 102
??? 214 156 35
F.. B.. GU. CS

Depth 28
F.. U.. BC. GS
273 230 179 107
278 239 151 40
F.. B.. GU. CS

The fiend values tend to be higher in Tier 3, by 1-2% in the new bomb. Definitely not the stronger bonus one would assume from switching to pure damage. At Depth 9, fiend actually takes less damage than before. At 4 HP it isn't significant, just an amusing result of the damage formulas.

The biggest losers is vs neutral enemies. 4* weapons that have a pure damage type takes a big hit in Strata 6. This was mitigated before by the special/special damage of the old bomb. Certainly highlights the need for a 5* version.

I found that vs Zombies you can still easily one-hit a zombie, but in a full party if you can't get most of the shards on it isn't going to happen with this new damage type. It doesn't always interrupt Kats, even solo. I'll have to try again, but on the real servers I'm almost sure I've used it to interrupt Kats even in full parties. Could be the result of the damage magnitude and/or type.

Against T1-2 Devilites this bomb works well enough. I still prefer DBB. In T3 vs Devilites it is suicide. If caught off-guard even a T1 Greaver is hard to deal with using only RSS. You can still kill Trojans, like before. Solo it takes about 3 bombs.

This bomb rules against T3 Wolvers. If the DBB didn't exist it would be the wolver bomb.

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