No explanation needed, if you explain sure go ahead. It would help.
I am going to copy and paste what I posted later on regarding this being moved to the suggestion forums:
HOW did this get moved to suggestion forums?????
It was in GENERAL
this is a DISCUSSION
NOT A SUGGESTION
This infuriates me. How / who did this? I am changing the title and moving it back AT ONCE.
Especially makes me mad because the suggestion forum is DEAD. and people DO NOT DISCUSS THINGS THERE.
its better now than when they first hit. but I still don't like it
I think I don't mind it more in the fact that it seems you don't "lose" much by not doing the shadow lairs. I think it was meant to be optional content like a very hard mode. It was a bummer when they first came out that the keys were not free and you had to gamble exorbitant amounts of CE to get it, but now we are guaranteed a fixed price.
Maybe I don't know what I am missing out on since I am not much of an elite player but I think you get to experience the most important parts of the game outside the shadow lairs and the shadow lairs definitely seem and feel optional so I never had a sense of urgency to try them.
I think lowering the cost of the keys to 900CE would make it more attractive
atleast you'l break even on the key price that way(4 man party)
Think we've had thread like this before :)
Even so, I still feel uncomfortable about SL access. If the SL became DLC, I'd totally hop on that. Putting a quarter in every time you want to play feels very '80s. (I blew so many quarters on Spy Hunter...)
/support. I don't think progression should be barred off like shadow lairs are to the regular player.
Yes, I dislike the current Shadow Key system and support this thread.
I am not against OOO making money, but to expect OOO from a f2p like me to buy more than one Shadow Key at the current price is madness. And let us not think about doing all 4 dungeons. Even with 4 friends it is something really not worth it as it is just "one credit" to enter them, as you got to use yet another if you would like to replay the level. Also, nothing that they give is worth it, in my opinion, to spend such copious amounts of CE.
I would accept it though if it was a one time purchase, even if it was just for one of the four bosses, as this way we could play it all the times we wanted, practice the levels and experiment. As they are currently a CE item, we f2p could get it, as now, but making the price have worth, and not as the current announced change to the Expansion Missions, which it is a pure pay wall, unacceptable in a game that has been a model of f2p business MMO until now.
Those are my reasons and what I would like to change about them. Death to current Shadow Key system! /cheesy, but real
Wouldn't that just drive the price of the mat you got from the run go down even more? The last run I did barely got me enough crowns for 100-150 CE. At that point, we'd have to drive the costs down to 400 CE to break even 8D
As a (mostly) free to play, I think it provides a really nice goal to work towards.
The game isn't that challenging without something to strive for. If shadow keys were cheap, I'd probably just end up running shadow vanaduke over and over similarly to how I'm running regular Vanaduke over and over.
But with shadow keys, I have a goal that I'm trying to reach, and it's a hard goal.
That's what makes it fun.
so? at 900CE from boost, people will probably sell it for 700CE, and in 4 man pt, you pay 175CE to get in.
SL give you that much + mats, if you dont CE rev
making it 400ce per key is way too low
Umm what I was saying was that making it 900 CE will flood the marketplace with even more shadowlair mats and make the already low costing mats even more worthless. You won't even be able to resell it to recuperate the costs, so basically all you will get from the shadowlair run is about 6-10k cr which you could then spend on ~150 CE. Also people won't sell it for 700 CE. The least is 800 CE because the daily 100 mist allows them to get one at that much. People were selling the other shadowkeys for like 1000CE before because there was a sale at 1250 CE at Boost before, and some people decided to hoard keys but the demand wasn't high enough and they needed their CE again fast for w/e reason. Basically there is no reason to do a shadow run other than craft because you are actually losing money with each run because it is so expensive and there really is no more profit.
They can't redesign the levels now; I'm sure some rich person has probably hoarded 20 keys or more by now, and that would all go to waste, should there be an update.
Same reason applies to why Xbox Live will never be free. Cutting off the money that the people spent previously, and instead continuing the same service for much cheaper or free, would severely anger those who had made significant investments.
Oh this turned out as I expected, and perfectly
but I see something that was perfectly said by someone above that I am going to use. It had something pointed out in the beginning of their post before continuing to their explanation, and it will prove useful in part of my experiment :P
"Hmm / Think we've had thread like this before :)"
Now this might not be your intention with saying this Culture, but it's sort of where I am going.
If we had 10 "Shadow keys r bad" threads, people would get annoyed / angry (not that you were Culture, but just using what you said as an example) when they themselves support anti-shadowkeyism.
1. More threads = more notice by the devs
>>Example: huge mass amount of pets threads = survey regarding pets
2. One very active thread = more notice by the devs
>>Example: Dead devs gunner thread by Happyapathy = devs take a look and promise "Handgun balance" (which didn't exactly happen with pepperbox but hey we get out antiguas)
Both 1 and 2 require support. Over time, we come to accept shadowkeyism. We lose support, if not question support (Culture's example, though that might not have been your intention I am using it as a similar example).
Number 1 plays its part in not being followed through as I explained previously. People do things like one day mass protests and make these quiet "do not buy CE" protests that are all worth nothing. Hello??!! There is something called the forums that devs actually look at!
Number 2 isn't followed through either. Eventually, we let those anti-shadowkeyism threads die off. We could have been actively bumping them with our anti-shadowkeyism reasoning and such just to get that title up to the top of the list.
So this was my experiment. It is our fault that there are bad things in the game that we do not like which some can argue are just terrible for the game itself, not entirely the dev's fault. It is our fault that there are shadow keys.
How do we get past this and get support?
It requires your time. Those of you who unknowingly took part in this experiment: Metagenic, Sireez, Alynn, Culture, Horasu, and Aumir.
The six of you can either do one of two things.
A. Continue support for anti-shadowkeyism (Your ideas, 900 CE per key etc) and be persistent.
Or...
B. Ignore supporting anti-shadowkeyism.
This is how I will conclude my experiment. The six of you must choose between A or B.
Either decrease the cost of Shadow Keys, or make it a one-time purchase (buy 4 keys and you get to play all Shadow Lairs forever).
Man, I am sleepy but had to see this develop. I already knew this was experimentation, but my opinion about Shadow Keys was (almost) the same from the beginning, not like what happened after the Haven protest.
Of course, my option is A, and will always be. I already stated my opinion about it. I also find it funny that people only care about "how much they sell the materials" or "how much they win" each run instead of, you know, enjoying new content. But I suppose people like to also play this game as "businessmen".
At least, I have piece of mind about that "it is our fault" thing. It isn't mine, I think I have made all that there is in my hand whenever possible... and now, I shall go to sleep. I hope tomorrow I can see Nick saying he thought it over and Expansion Missions will be CE purchasable or something, and also where this thing will continue.
Pay walls and business isn't funny. The game is.
Edit: Yeah, if it really is needed: 1 time purchase only. I personally think it should have the same price as a 5* item, 800CE, and so as they are 4 bosses it would equal making a 5* set (helm, armor, shield, weapon). 3200CE total isn't bad, right?
so what if you cant sell shadow lair only mat for a high price? there are other mats to sell and the raw cr and challenge makes it worth it
Either make the keys HALF price, or waive the energy costs at the sanctuary alchemy machines, and I'll be okay with it.
But that's what I'm saying. The raw cr makes it not worth it because even if you get out without a single revive, you're still going to lose money each time you go. It's worth it if you judge it from a entertainment perspective, but not worth it from an monetary one. You said that we should lower it to 900CE earlier so that we could at least break even. I'm saying that it's not possible with the current raw cr output and potential mat profit.
Everyone is missing the point of the SLs.
You aren't meant to tun them for profit. You're meant run them to craft the boss armor.
For profit, we have regular bosses to grind.
And of course, if you enjoy running SLs, isn't that enough reason to run them? Or can you not do anything that isn't profitable? I don't know about you, but I play SK to have fun, not to be uber-rich.
It's not about the profit for everyone. It's about the fact that right now it's a huge LOSS. I'm not in it for the trading, but as it is, the only unique rewards are ludicrously overpriced, and the experience alone is NOT worth it.
@Wolfkit
Not having energy to play the content is not fun.
I'm still boycotting the shadow lairs. I thought OOO had learned from the debacle, promising to make the expansion missions a one-time unlock for CE, but they're screwing that up too.
The shadow lairs at this point are a lost cause, they wedged themselves into a corner that they can't get out of if they wanted to. If they make the shadow lairs a one time unlock like it should have been to start with, they piss off everyone who has been farming SLs with dozens of keys. If they leave it as is, they keep the thorn in the side of players like me.
Hello,
The price for a Shadow Lair Key is too high at the moment. I think that the price is about 100k Cr or even more. This is definetly to much.
I bougth my keys at a price around 1 - 1,2k CE.
My calculation was following:
- Dividing the 1 k CE (lowest price) every part of the group has to pay at least 0,250 k CE. That price is maybe acceptable cause u can go with 100mist 2 times a day FSC and earn 7-8k Cr. According to this u ll ve the 0,250k CE sooner or later.
As already mentioned above is a reduction of the SL Key Prive inevitable to gain a bigger a community and to satisfy player's issues.
Its a waste of CE if you can't complete the shadow lair, that makes me VERY paranoid.
Yes, I disagree with the shadow lair key system.
I agree that the price should be lowered.
Sure it works as a sort-of a skill barrier, but as is it is too damn high. The suggested 900CE seems like a very sensible sweet spot.
Too much complaining. If you go to a lair, you should have a purpose, which the most logical reason to go is to craft. No one said you were going to make a profit. I agree completely with wolfkit, it is for the experience if you are not going to craft. This content is optional for a reason, you get optional equipment, along with an optional experience. They are a luxury, not a privelege. The price is not that high as it is, by the time you're ready, you should be making roughly 200ce off of fsc daily, just on mist. With four players splitting the cost, you can go every week.
Also, something that has not been discussed, to my knowledge anyways, is the bang for the buck. With the modifications to the levels, and the amount of monsters, each depth provides longer play time. So say an average fsc run takes 45 minutes, you get that much play time for 50 mist. For average players running the shadow snarbs, the easiest lair in my opinion, 30 mist can equate to 55-110 minutes of playtime, and that's not including the passage, that's like a bonus level, more playtime. So sure you're not making too much of a profit, but you gain experience and you get to play longer, which I think everyone takes for granted now.
So if you can't farm for a few days and make the ce with a few friends, you are lazy and/or bad.
I'd LIKE to do the shadow pairs for the experience, but I can't really afford the associated expenses.
Yes you can. Farm for a few days. -_-
Outside of tier progression, which is just a one-time thing, nothing else in the game forces you to farm just to access it. Every. Single. Time. As it is right now, the prohibitive price means there is no incentive to do any shadow lair more than once, just to see what it's like. It's cheaper to just buy the mats off the AH and do all your crafting the first time you reach the Shadow Snarby station, rather than try to get them "fair and square".
I play with two other people, one of which is f2p. 600 CE is a lot, considering the additional costs of elevators, crafting and any potential revives, as this would be our first attempt at a SL.
Expect a change to this system with further mission updates, I just hope its done in a similar way to this... Will probably NOT be this way, but I can throw out a suggestion. This fixes alot of issues, especially the Disconnection/Party Setup.
The means to unlocking Shadow Lairs have been changed.
- Shadow Lairs must now be unlocked through the Mission System.
- Each level in the shadow lair missions will require 20 Energy to play.
- Each shadow lair would require 1 shadow key per Shadow Lair to unlock per Knight. This action will unlock the shadow lair mission for the knight indefinitely. If you use Depth 23 to get into a shadow lair, a similar check will be done per knight before starting a shadow lair.
- Shadow Lair bosses now drop Shadow versions of their tokens. For example, defeating Ice Queen will yield 3 Shadow Jelly Gems.
- If you join the mission in progress late, you'll receive less tokens.
- These tokens are used to buy the shadow lair materials at the cost of 15 tokens each rather than having the material drop at the end of each run.
- An NPC in the sanctuary will trade these materials for these tokens.
- The Shadow Lair Missions will consist of 5 stages.
- S1 "The Unknown Passage" - Requires completion of the T3 Rank Missions including the "Hall of Heroes (5*). Clear this level and talk to the NPC in Sanctuary to "Learn about the shadow lairs".
- S2 "Rabid Snarbolax" - Requires a shadow key to unlock
- S3 "Ice Queen" - Requires completion of "Rabid Snarbolax" then needs a shadow key to unlock.
- S4 "Red Roarmulus Twins" - Requires completion of "Rabid Snarbolax" then needs a shadow key to unlock.
- S5 "Darkfire Vanaduke" - Requires completion of "Ice Queen" or "Red Roarmulus Twins" then needs a shadow key to unlock.
How about make every single knight pay for the 1800 or 2000 CE shadow key and then access it indefinately because
1. It would actually make progression finally
2. There wouldn't be players mooching off of other players having them pay the key for them (I have done this before so I am not innocent)
That way, it forces more people to pay for a key which they have not, and it makes the idea of purchasing a key much more satisfying so more purchase that would have not.
Just idea
Regarding the cost of the shadow key, and being able to afford it:
My to-do list consists of crafting three 5* items, and there are four more I need recipes for.
After dealing with all that, I'll be ready to start saving up CE for real, with the purpose of buying a shadow key or part of one, heading through UGWW to craft a Snarby set, and still have spare CE to revive with.
This is looking a long way out. But it's also something to look foward to. If the shadow key was cheap enough that UGWW could be bumped to the front of my list, I wouldn't be looking forwards to it so much.
meh, while I wish the price is lower, I really don't care. The cost is 425ce if you split the full cost in CE. I earn ~300CE a day doing T3 runs (boss or not) and selling mats and tokens. I have a wide enough range of weapons and gear, and the only thing keeping me out of the SL is that I'm trying to fund my brother so he has good gear.
I do have a paid account, but I only paid $6 for 2kce and 4 weeks of elevator pass.
EDIT: I was in the same boat as wolfkit. I had to earn 6kce for everything I needed, and I've done that plus more. At 300ce a day, it was a 20 day goal for my first run.
Although I haven’t took part in any official boycotting, I’m not playing Shadow Lairs at all (contrary to some big names, who were boycotting loudly only to delve into Shadow Lairs as soon as they appear).
I don’t like an idea of paying fee every time I’d like to enter SL – especially since price is quite high. I know CE is purchasable with crowns but I’m one of those players that play for fun – and that’s mean I’m playing fun levels, not necessary those most profitable ones. That also means I like diversity and I can’t force myself to play the same level again and again. As much as I like Royal Jelly Palace, I’m playing it no more then once a week or even less then that.
Side not: If I’m not complaining about Shadow Keys that much it’s only because I don’t feel overwhelming urge to get there as soon as possible. I’m not achiever and there’s no armour/helm for a gunner available in Shadow Lairs so what’s the point really? ;-D
Short analysis of my in-game behaviour indicate three solutions that would potentially make me more inclined to pay for Shadow Keys:
1. Lower Shadow Key prize - reason: I'm buying Silver Keys whenever I got Iron Lockbox in prize-wheel. Silver Key not only cost less but also it always gives you something - even if it's an accessory that doesn't suit me I can give it for a friend as a gift (and feel myself better) or sell it at AH if it's something more valuable.
2. Introduction of one-time-fee that would unlock Shadow Lairs - reason: I don't mind reasonable one time fees for non-temporary items (so far I've purchased at least one item in each promo except Valentine one).
3. Introduction of Shadow Lairs Pass - reason: I've purchased couple of Elevator Passes during promo. If I find myself suddenly with more free time (for example got fired) I may be willing to purchase such Shadow Lairs pass.
I have a feeling Three Rings wants to keep top content P2P, which would mean Shadow Lairs will be free eventually.
I dislike the steep prices. I really do. And from what I gather, not a lot of FtP players want or can afford to spend that much energy for a one-time trip into a very hard area with no practice. Not only does a lot of energy go to the key, you also need another 800 to craft, and if it's your first time you will likely die a whole bunch as well. Not very forgiving.
Hmm. Thing is, I can't help but feel forum complaints pale in comparison to actual sales figures. If shadow keys are still contributing to sinking a lot of energy in the market then I imagine the current system will hang around. Of course lower prices or a one time fee would be fantastic from a player perspective, but obviously they're going to weigh this up against the income they generate from it.
Though personally, I think the SLs have a number of problems and a high entry cost is the least of my worries. They could make them free entry tomorrow and I wouldn't step foot inside a lair again.
Personally, I don't really care about Shadow Key costs. If I need one, I buy one. It takes a few runs or AH sales to raise the capital, but it isn't really enough to be a hassle. So long as I don't have to depend on lockboxes for them, I think it's fine.
This thread got a lot of attention..
I've always viewed Tiers 1-3 F2P and SLs P2P. No F2P in his right mind will ever try out a SL for the first time on 1800 CE. Not one would dare. F2Pers like myself only get to do SLs when a P2Per comes up to you and says "I'll pay your entry fee if I get the mat at the end". Perfectly fine with me.
Honestly I do Shadow Lairs just for fun. A specific friend usually lets me join up when I give him the mat at the end for free, and I get to play the SL. I really do it only for the experience, it's not extremely beneficial to run them. SLs are really fun to do, where else do you actually have an area that is hard yet not annoying? Fiends in T3 (I'm talking about you, Greavers) can get annoying and you can take significant damage from them, but it's just as challenging to fight HORDES of enemies and much more entertaining.
It's like Spiral Knights UNLEASHED. Anyway, in a nutshell, it's all about the experience for me. Not the crafting of the (mostly cosmetic) armor sets, not the crowns, just for fun...and of course to help my friends beat it.
~Sev
...and I'm not really against a potential change to the cost or the system as a whole. I haven't actually played any SL levels yet, but giving them a one-time entry fee seems perhaps more reasonable than the current pay-per-play system.
I am a F2P player with a bunch of F2P (or mostly F2P; I don't really consider their purchases of elevator passes to be the same as a P2P player who buys energy for keys and whatnot) friends. Personally, I see the Shadow Lairs as kind of a far-off goal to get us to keep playing the game. We've scrounged up enough crowns to buy the energy to purchase a couple of keys, and now we're working on building up energy for crafting in the sanctuary and for a high expected revive rate (because there's no way we're going to let that hard-earned key go to waste). So for me, the Shadow Key system makes something like a once-in-a-lifetime chance to go to the Shadow Lairs, and for that I hold some attachment to the current system.
Oooh, I'm gonna agree with Schattentag. I like how the key system gives me and my guildies something to work towards and plan for. The high costs just adds to the risks which adds to the fun of it.
I mean, after awhile, planning and working towards SL is all that's left for the end-game players.
Why did this thread get moved to suggestions? This isn't a suggestion thread.
yes it is nicoya... it was just spun it in a way that made it seem like it isn't
To everyone saying it will tick players off that have already bought SL keys : They have an energy tracking system, they know all what you do with your energy, so they can easily refund people the money they spent on SL keys if they redcue its price ( i hope so, its possible in most popular games ). Example: If you bought an SL key for 1800 ce, and then they reduced the price to 900 ce, you would be refunded 900 ce.
@Serell And what if person A buys a key for 1800ce, sells it to person B for let's say 110kcr. Person A gets the refund, and person B is left holding the bag?
Why should we pay just to play these levels? There really is no point.