Spiral Knights - Not being able to play an unlimited amount of time for free is TERRIBLE for the longevity of this game.

Not being able to play an unlimited amount of time for free is TERRIBLE for the longevity of this game.

87 replies [Last post]

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:03

zizzefex

Legacy Username

Preface: OK I am going to preface everything I say with some information about myself. I was in multiple top 100 US WoW guilds with many top 100 achievements including Firefighter 25, One Light 25, and many more (getting old now but still valid). I have been within top 100 in many other games... and sometimes within top 10. I have 50 million gil in FF14... probably within top 3 on my server... and that game would have many of you people screaming like girls. I have played lots and lots of games... and usually do very well at them. I have already paid real money for CE in Spiral Knights... and I enjoy Spiral Knights very much.

That said... even though I have already paid real money to play Spiral Knights.......... being unable to play an unlimited amount of time is absolutely terrible for this game and will drive almost everyone away but a very small minority. It is no secret you can only play about a hour a day before you run out of mist energy. This is very very bad... even though I see some people try to justify it for whatever reason. Fact is when people can only play a hour a day.... they will only play a hour a day and then go play something else (which is really bad... for this game). I already see way less people around... and I really doubt it's because the game fault... because this game is really fun.

So here's the main problem as I see it. The main problem is the fact you pay 10 energy going down each level. This has absolutely got to go. Paying energy to upgrade your weapons/armor is absolutely fine... and this would still make you need energy and buy it. But limiting game time by making you pay every time you go down a floor is a absolute disaster. Paying 10 Energy each and every floor absolutely has to go.

Let's look at League of Legends... probably one of the most popular games out there. And let's be real... it's not popular because it's good. In fact it's not... but you can play a unlimited amount for free and use real money to buy extras. And even still.... Riot will make waaaaaay more money off League of Legends than the dev's make off Spiral Knights.

I am a paying player.... I pay to play good games. But paying real money for a limited amount of gametime (which is 100% true in this game) is a absolute disaster and will probably turn me off eventually from playing this game.... and probably the vast majority of people who try this game out.

Edit: I just want to add I don't mind paying 10-15 bucks a month to play a game... especially a game like this. But when I get a limited amount of playtime (which is 100% true for Spiral Knights) for my 10-15 bucks (only 35 hours per $10 spent based on 100CE/hour dungeon crawling)..... this is REALLY REALLY BAD and will make me think twice about continuing it play. To the vast majority it will make them stop playing.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:26

Raul

I agree with most if not all

I agree with most if not all of this.

If they remove the 10ce/floor cost most players would quit bitching about CE because then they would only need it to craft.

However, if you stop to think about it, I believe the developers have picked this specific model to FORCE people to HAVE TO purchase CE, and that is my major complaint.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:29

OnmyojiOmn

Legacy Username

Step 1: Learn about game Step

Step 1: Learn about game

Step 2: Post about game

In that order. $15 of energy per month buys you like 100-150 extra hours of playing time. Buy diapers.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:36

Raul

^Your post there Onmy

^Your post there Onmy literally proves me point.

You are sitting here telling a non payer to just drop $15 to get the extra 150 hours.

This is what will cause the game to tank right there ^ you do not tell your players to just deal with it and pay up or get out especially when you are a F2P model.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:39

anisoptera

Legacy Username

boo hoo lets all feel bad for

boo hoo lets all feel bad for the poor cripple whose free game isn't free enough and needs to mention his cripple status just so we know why he cant pay moneys and drive cars and make love or be loved

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:43

slaxer

Legacy Username

Is OOO(or sega)

Is OOO(or sega) the new EA?(because they like money!)

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:47

Njthug

I think this is good

I think its good Three Rings and Sega is the first gaming company which allows kids to learn about self-controll and enjoy real-life instead of playing video games for countless hours and achieving goals in the game instead of real-life. I have to admit I like their concept and wish all gaming companies do what Three Rings and Sega is doing.
^Yes I am 100% Serious =).

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:47

anisoptera

Legacy Username

Every company in existence

Every company in existence "likes money".

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:48

viper901

Legacy Username

I disagree

You can play unlimited. I have a knight and I play out my mist energy in the day. Then I was teir 0 gear and saw that I could not afford to buy more energy using crowns, but I had my mist tank! So I used that. Then after that was gone I had enough crowns to buy energy. On the second day or third (forget which) I managed to get to teir 2 and start playing there. In one run I was making just enough to afford buying 100 energy via crowns, and now I am making more. So yes, I can't make gear, i spend all my money on energy to play more. But that's the trade off right? I am sloooooowly accumulating enough energy so that every day or at least every other day I can make a piece of armor and still play.

It sounds like you want have your cake and eat it too. In that case, I recommend you play a subscription game. Spiral knights requires you to give up something if you want to save your pennies.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:49

zizzefex

Legacy Username

10$ only buys 35 hours of

10$ only buys 35 hours of game time (if you go by a hour = 100CE which is very reasonable). 15 bucks... thats like 50 hours. That's not even counting upgrades to weapons/armor/whatever.

Which is exactly my point. Someone like me can go through my 15 bucks in a week of playing.... 2 weeks tops.

Again... I AM A PAYING PLAYER. I paid to play WoW for a long time... I have paid for many games. But paying for a (VERY) limited amount of gametime is completely flawed and only idiots (like some of you people) would continue to pay for such a small amount of gametime.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:50

#10

alkanshel

Legacy Username

But here's the thing

If they made it free to dive and only had energy used for crafting, there'd be one key problem:

Crown cost of CE would just keep rising. And rising. And rising. Hell, there'd be no point to having a market AT ALL. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of low CE cost and playing forever, but...you're describing a case where getting crowns is effectively FREE (if you play well), but CE can still be traded for crowns. There isn't a CE bank we're drawing free CE from at the moment, so if crowns are easy and you can dungeon dive forever, why sell CE at all?

It'd become a system of 'get crowns, do nothing with crowns, buy CE for equipment, repeat.' Much less fun.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:51

#11

Njthug

@Zizzefex

No name calling allowed on the forums thats breaking the rules =)

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:51

#12

anisoptera

Legacy Username

If you pay $10 and can't

If you pay $10 and can't figure out how to turn that into a set of gear that will let you self-sustain then it is not we who are the idiots.

I've spent all of $7 on this game and I have 48 hours of playtime logged. And a metric assload of CE. And I can dive and make a profit.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:52

#13

alkanshel

Legacy Username

Right, that's totally the

Right, that's totally the intent.

Seriously, what do you think they do when they aren't playing Spiral Knights? They don't suddenly enter the workforce and become productive people.

If anything, this game takes productive people away from doing productive things. It's that kinda game.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:53

#14

anisoptera

Legacy Username

If they made it free to dive

If they made it free to dive and only had energy used for crafting, there'd be one key problem: It'd become a system of 'get crowns, do nothing with crowns, buy CE for equipment, repeat.' Much less fun.

Welcome to our side of the argument. As njthug said to me: good luck :)

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:55

#15

zizzefex

Legacy Username

@Viper901: playing with your

@Viper901: playing with your mist energy is not unlimited amount of play at all. It is very very limited. The only reason you can continue to play is if people sell CE to you so that you CAN PLAY.

The only way you can continue to play 'unlimited' in your eyes (which it completely isn't)... is if people are there to sell you their CE.... which they won't when they have all the recipes and gear that they want. CE prices are only going to go waaaaaaaaaaay up when people don't need crowns anymore.... and then you CANT play for more than a hour.... unless you want to pay real money (10 bucks for 35 hours of gametime)... which is a very very small amount of gametime.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:58

#16

alkanshel

Legacy Username

Not quite your side. I like

Not quite your side. I like CE being relatively less than the amount of crowns retrieved from 100 CE. I feel like CE cost hitting the point where doing a tier 2 run is no longer profitable (that is, cost of CE == tier 2 run crowns, approximately) would be generally detrimental to the gameplay.

That being said, I'm more in favor of a crown sink that'll bring inflation down (by making crowns useful for something other than, well, CE) than several of the methods suggested so far; making dungeon diving free would just be a terrible idea for either side.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:00

#17

zizzefex

Legacy Username

"If you pay $10 and can't

"If you pay $10 and can't figure out how to turn that into a set of gear that will let you self-sustain then it is not we who are the idiots.

I've spent all of $7 on this game and I have 48 hours of playtime logged. And a metric assload of CE. And I can dive and make a profit."

I have spent $10 and I have 3 5 star items and a 4 star... and can self-sustain. But it is only temporary so long as someone is willing to sell me CE. This will not always be true... and will probably not be true for very long. It is very very easy to see this.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:08

#18

Hoogie

Legacy Username

Stop complaining about CE

Stop complaining about CE prices already. I'm sick of it. I've lived through 22k per 100ce. Am I complaining? no. Am I still here? yes. Is the game still running? Yes.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:10

#19

zizzefex

Legacy Username

"Crown cost of CE would just

"Crown cost of CE would just keep rising. And rising. And rising. Hell, there'd be no point to having a market AT ALL. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of low CE cost and playing forever, but...you're describing a case where getting crowns is effectively FREE (if you play well), but CE can still be traded for crowns. There isn't a CE bank we're drawing free CE from at the moment, so if crowns are easy and you can dungeon dive forever, why sell CE at all?"

This is true... you would not need to sell CE at all. But you still need to buy CE to upgrade your gear, or to unlock your trinket slots, or extra weapons, or extra costumes, or other things the dev's can think of as extras to add value to make you want to spend money.

You could keep playing till you had a gazillion crowns and that would be OK... that's how it should be. You still would need to buy CE for extras and that's how most FTP games work (and how this one should too).

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:13

#20

zizzefex

Legacy Username

"Stop complaining about CE

"Stop complaining about CE prices already. I'm sick of it. I've lived through 22k per 100ce."

I don't care about CE prices. I care about only getting 35 hours of gametime (based on 100CE a hour of dungeon crawling) for $10 real money. This is extremely small and completely flawed. And will stop people from playing sooner or later (more than likely sooner for most people). Don't tell me you can keep playing by buying CE on the open market... that only happens if someone else is willing to sell you CE... which will eventually not happen.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:24

#21

alkanshel

Legacy Username

And that's the reason why I don't play other F2P games

...because who wants to play for ten hours, only to find out HUZZAH! To get a sword that does damage to anything, you must pay...$5!

Yeah. There's a reason why I stay away from Korean MMOs. It isn't about the amount of time I play, it's about the accomplishment of getting more powerful/the accomplishment of getting somewhere with that time spent. There's no bloody way you'd ever convince me to play a game where the only way of getting ahead is micropayments. There's just no value in that; if I really want to play a game where the only measure of success I'll ever get is through paying my way to victory, I'll go hire a seamstress.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:26

#22

Hoogie

Legacy Username

then stop worrying about the

then stop worrying about the future cause that lack of market hasn't happened yet. enjoy the present cause living in the past or future won't do anything.

If you won't take that, here: the problem is you're comparing this to WoW, which does strictly follow "money buys you time" Which is why they give you more than Spiral Knights. However in this game, money does not only buy you time, but others time as well, and gateways to making the money/time ratio more efficient. You spend on the community and the community spends on you. If CE bought you nothing but elevator and revive fee and wasn't tradeable, this game would have been dead by day 1. But it's not. It's different from all of those games that you pay for gametime. This is not WoW. This is not Ragnarok. This is not Everquest. Most importantly, CE does not equal time. I understand your views, and I know where your coming from, but I'm asking you to take a different perspective and detach your ideas of SK from all your ideas of other MMOs.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:30

#23

zizzefex

Legacy Username

"Yeah. There's a reason why I

"Yeah. There's a reason why I stay away from Korean MMOs. It isn't about the amount of time I play, it's about the accomplishment of getting more powerful/the accomplishment of getting somewhere with that time spent. There's no bloody way you'd ever convince me to play a game where the only way of getting ahead is micropayments. There's just no value in that; if I really want to play a game where the only measure of success I'll ever get is through paying my way to victory, I'll go hire a seamstress."

You say that and yet to play this game... and defend it... and it's the same thing. The only reason it looks different is because there are people willing to sell CE... for now. But once everyone has their recipes and all the gear they want.... and then you can't get CE without buying it with real money... and new dungeon levels/bosses come out and you have to pay real money to grind the floors and have many attempts at hard bosses... you'll think different.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:30

#24

Tsuki

Legacy Username

Playing the game pays for

Playing the game pays for itself.

I make about 5-7k in T2 runs? Which is like 60 energy. Not including the money I get from selling rare materials I might and probably will find.

There is nothing wrong here.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:33

#25

Hoogie

Legacy Username

dude, I already told you.

dude, I already told you. I've lived through times when energy prices would rise up to 22k. So if it happens again, would I think differently? no.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:40

#26

zizzefex

Legacy Username

"dude, I already told you.

"dude, I already told you. I've lived through times when energy prices would rise up to 22k. So if it happens again, would I think differently? no."

If prices got to 22k crowns/100 energy, and you still needed energy to play this game, there would probably only be 100 people playing this game. Well and a very small amount logging on to use their mist energy. I'm sure the dev's would love that.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:42

#27

Hoogie

Legacy Username

the rapidly growing economy

the rapidly growing economy during beta wishes to differ.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:45

#28

Raul

@ over 8000CR-100CE you can

@ over 8000CR-100CE you can expect people to start walking, some will pay, most will leave. It's just not worth the money.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:48

#29

Hoogie

Legacy Username

hoho. 8kcr/100ce was a

hoho. 8kcr/100ce was a blessing from heaven back in those days.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:51

#30

Awesomest

Legacy Username

ITT: People missing the point

The only reason I'm still playing now is because I don't have to pay for unlimited game time, but it's obvious that privilege is going to be lost VERY soon.

I'm ready to quit when it happens.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:56

#31

alextong

Legacy Username

However the the market shall

However the the market shall be whether its 5k - 100 energy or 22k - 100 energy there should be something in the game if not 5x better to make a profit well over that, but their isn't right now. All i hear is do t2 runs where you get 6-7k at most and sure you can sell recipes and mats, but still not efficient enough to the market. That is where the unbalance is and that is what focus should be. Not the energy cost, but what the game offers to compensate to get energy back

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:59

#32

Hoogie

Legacy Username

continuing on what alex is

continuing on what alex is saying, remember that even though there has been countless advances within preview, THIS IS STILL A NEW GAME. Allow it to develop and help it out by being there.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 01:14

#33

alkanshel

Legacy Username

Zizzefex: Yeah, and when

Zizzefex: Yeah, and when that time comes, I'll leave the game.

The distinction here is: One game is designed from the ground up to nickel and dime you for every step you take. The other is designed to try to be sustainable. Sure, it's lacking crown sinks, leading to inflation, but that's a risk of having a market system. At least I know the devs aren't trying to make it so that every time I see an item, I have to put $5 into getting proficiency with that item (and that item alone).

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 01:16

#34

alkanshel

Legacy Username

It all boils down to this basic problem:

You have food and money. The only thing money will buy you is more food. You have more than enough food for your purposes.

What reason, if any, do you have for selling food to get money, when the only reason you need money is for food?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 02:09

#35

Raul

I'm sick of people bring up

I'm sick of people bring up the beta as a means to how the price will be. The beta was a small group of people as compared to what we are dealing with now.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 02:16

#36

Trowzers

Legacy Username

One thing I'm still wondering...

What's so bad about only being able to play 1hr a day?

It's not like you are being forced to only play this game only... there are others!

I'm a bit of a hypocrite as I've been playing quite a long time lately (with bought CE that I was happy to pay for), but really, what's so bad about taking a break for a while? Frankly, it makes the game more enjoyable because you're not going to get burnt out.

Take the Portal guys - they understand that it's possible to have a great game with limited hours of gameplay.

You hereby have my permission to enjoy a game without having to play it 100 hours a week!

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 02:28

#37

anisoptera

Legacy Username

I'm sick of people bring up

I'm sick of people bring up the beta as a means to how the price will be. The beta was a small group of people as compared to what we are dealing with now.

So if there are more people it doesn't work? I thought the whole problem was that so many people would leave that the game would be a ghost town.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 02:39

#38

Raul

If all the players leave it

If all the players leave it will be a ghost town and then prices will be like 25000CR-100CE!

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 04:22

#39

Talontorn

Legacy Username

If the price of CE does rise:

Here's the thing though. Let's say inflation does rise. Sure, even to 25000CR-100CE. But, if you were a noob, and you logged into SPiral Knights and the market exchange was THAT sweet... $.75 just got you ALL of your gear to get to t2. Admittedly vendor gear, but still. When the incentive is THAT great to sell CE, more people will buy CE to sell it for crowns, and market forces will eventually drive down the cost of CE. Unless this game tanks, which so far it seems to still be growing, the market won't ever get that lopsided. Beta was a small ISOLATED group. With new players coming in and spending their microtransactions I think we'll see the cost of energy stay reasonable for a while. Whether it will be possible for someone to be self sustainable just by running up to lvl 17 forever? I don't think so. Not if there is a good base of players maxing out their little robots.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 04:38

#40

Linkderp

Legacy Username

I bought a total of 31500

I bought a total of 31500 energy. Wasted about 70% on nothing really but I were more than willing to support the developers of this game, only F2P game with micro-transactions that I've ever put money in.

I don't relly understand how people can basically cry about not being able to play a game for free as long as they want. Calling the developers greedy and sleezy like GodOfSkype1 is calling nick who've put in 4 years in making his game come true is just crazy.

I'll put in atleast $20-50 a month into this game for as long as I'm playing it.

If you say you can't afford it and cry over not being able to play the game for 20 hours a day... Then maybe playing this game for as much as u can for free is not even remotely close to your concerns.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 05:32

#41

Tive

You know what's "TERRIBLE"

You know what's "TERRIBLE" for the longevity of this game?

Lack of content.
Limited play time at least stops some people from seeing it all as fast. Perhaps...

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 06:57

#42

Elenion

Legacy Username

Totally agree with OP

There is a fine real life example of why Energy price is skyrocketing.

The value of Dollar is going down because of unstable economy while the price of gold is going up steady ($1500 per ounce I believe?) This is obviously because the value of gold is worth way much more and solid (no pun intended) and demand is greater because everyone wants to invest something worthwhile.

Basically the value of Crown in this game is garbage. Essentially, you only need to use Crown to buy recipes for your gear upgrade. Of course you can use Crown for buying items off players but they prefer Energy most of time because it's more valuable. Energy is more valuable because you simply need more to play more of this fun game as well as craft new gear to progress farther. While having two different currencies in a single game is interesting this is a dangerous game played by devs.

Now I am not suggesting anything about paying for game is bad or free game model with pay to progress father is bad. Developers need money to sustain the game and make a living too. I wholeheartedly support it. But free or not, when the game is "gated" from playing much as you want and enjoy regardless of progressing fast or not and requires you to pay currency to continue. This is hard to attract or keep people from playing the game for long period of time with an exception of minority group.

Also as much as fun as it is after playing same/similar levels over and over, this game lacks contents, you either have Energy to play dungeon or you're basically offline, other than mindless spamming for buy/selling items.

So how do you solve this?
There are many cheap temporary solutions you can come up with but nothing will resolve the root of problem as long as the devs doesn't adjust game to make the value of Crown more than what it is now to balance the weight of two ingame currencies. If not, abandon F2P model for P2P and get rid of gated system.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 06:57

#43

CountSpatula

Legacy Username

Ahahahaha oh God.

I thought this guy was trollin'

MFW I realized he ain't, amirite?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 07:21

#44

Metaknight

@Shoebox - Hhaha I love

@Shoebox - Hhaha I love you

@GodOfSkype1 - Can you stop threatening people with administrative action? I understand that there are rules, but the fact that you are now pretty much threatening to rat someone out in every thread you're contributing to -- well it just makes you look like a huge crybaby / snitch. Feel free to hide behind the admins all you want, if you can't handle some fairly tame insults / language ON THE INTERNET. We've already established you're NOT a kid, so stop acting like one -- you petulant manchild.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 07:23

#45

Metaknight

@zizzefex - you could've done

@zizzefex - you could've done without the preface where you brag about how great you are at other online games. it really doesn't add anything to what you have to say, if anything it makes me take you less seriously. just food for thought

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 07:38

#46

Raul

Can you stop threatening

Can you stop threatening people with administrative action? I understand that there are rules, but the fact that you are now pretty much threatening to rat someone out in every thread you're contributing to -- well it just makes you look like a huge crybaby / snitch. Feel free to hide behind the admins all you want, if you can't handle some fairly tame insults / language ON THE INTERNET. We've already established you're NOT a kid, so stop acting like one -- you petulant manchild.

Uh, I have no idea what you are talking about, never once in this thread did I threaten admin action. I am also not hiding behind the admins at all, trust me I get the warnings to...especially about my swearing..

However, personal attacks are not tame insults or smack talk, and are not allowed on the forum; as stated by the forum's conduct of rules.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 07:39

#47

Raul

That was a pretty bad way to

That was a pretty bad way to start the thread, just saying.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 07:44

#48

Syor

Legacy Username

I pay

I paid 0 dollars, and I'm doing fine. No restriction no time limit. Even at current CE prices.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 07:49

#49

Metaknight

I apologize, it was more of a

I apologize, it was more of a warning in this thread, but you have made similar threats in other threads and I just took to commenting on it here.

Again, I understand personal attacks have no place here, but unless you feel like you're in danger or something, I wouldn't take it so seriously as to report it. I understand this is supposed to be a kid friendly place, but you're an adult and you can handle it. If someone is saying awful things to a defenseless kid, then fine, go to the admins.

Admins should be browsing threads anyways, let them find it on their own and handle how they feel is appropriate. If I get in trouble for something I will accept the punishment, I just think its lame to be a rat about it. I wouldn't flag you for swearing or whatever. Again, yes I understand there is a difference between that and personal attacks, but I think you're being a little liberal about what constitutes a personal attack.

(and please don't respond quoting the rulebook or whatever this is not something that I feel needs to be beaten to death / discussed further)

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 07:51

#50

alkanshel

Legacy Username

Pretty sure the complaint is trends, mate

As in, CE costs have gone up ~1,000 in one week (~400-600 of it in the last two days). People are afraid it's the acceleration of the previously existing trend, and thereby are voicing their distinct uncertainty (well, okay, some are voicing unfairness and ranting, but it's the uncertainty that gets ya, really).

God knows, it's unnerving coming online after work and seeing that the price has gone up another x%.

Search

Not being able to play an unlimited amount of time for free is TERRIBLE for the longevity of this game.