Spiral Knights - Sentenza or Umbra Driver?

Sentenza or Umbra Driver?

29 replies [Last post]

Fri, 03/16/2012 - 05:47

Nubskills

With the Upcoming changes thread by Nick, guns seem to be a more viable option for me with the buff to gunner sets. I was considering using a shadowsun set, likely with nova driver.
I've heard that Umbra Driver has a higher dps than Sentenza, however with damage bonuses I trust that it would out-damage Umbra Driver on single targets. Any suggestions on which gun to go with? i'm currently leaning more towards the sentenza line, since it's a different type of gun to nova driver(i currently have prisma), so that I'd have a wider range of gun types to play with :3 Heck, I might consider getting Argent if there's enough evidence of its usefulness over Nova. Drivers sure are fun though, pelting shots while kiting.

Another weapon style I've been considering is pure toothpick(dark thorn blade). I'm quite familiar with the attack formula, flourish being the first non-proto weapon I had, and its high speed and damage(I heard somewhere that pure types deal more damage to neutral targets, but I'm not sure) is kinda tempting me to leave the other weapons for a while. You know, as a kinda default go-to weapon for when things get laggy. Would this be a viable option, as in sticking with one familiar/favourite weapon, or should I return to diversifying like I normally do?

Fri, 03/16/2012 - 06:10

Shue-Donnym

Well, if you're getting gun

Well, if you're getting gun damage bonuses then Sentenza because the damage bonus is applied to six times(for six shots) per clip wheras only two bonuses are applied per clip with the umbra driver. It also boosts the Sentenza's main use as a single target DPS weapon.

Also pure toothpick is bad IMO because you lose the familiarity you have with other swords over time.

Fri, 03/16/2012 - 06:15

Metagenic

Hmm

I think you should get both. Sentenza does a good job of handling gremlins, while Umbra Driver can take advantage of slimes' predictable attack pattern. Given the differences between the two families of shadow-vulnerable monsters, I'd say that Sentenza and Umbra are more specialized guns than their elemental counterparts.

Fri, 03/16/2012 - 07:46

Demonicsothe

Sentenza has a easier time at

Sentenza has a easier time at achieving its maximum dps. As in, autoaim and point. Umbra has a higher dps, but requires more skill to aim and ricochet for that higher damage.

Fri, 03/16/2012 - 09:21

Batabii

xplad, that's irrelevant.

xplad, that's irrelevant. Damage bonus is a percentage, so whether it has 2 shots or six, it's still gives it the same percent boost.

Fri, 03/16/2012 - 09:42

Mirrorminx

Safer

Sentenza is also a safer gun, as you can shield cancel at most points (all if you fire only 5/6 shots, then pause).

Against multiple enemies, especially Jellies, Umbra does more dps. However, the gremlin dodge is more of a pain, because Umbra has a lower projectile speed.

I'd go for Sentenza, as Umbra is a pain to use on Gremlins, but Sentenza works great on both mob types.

Fri, 03/16/2012 - 17:24

Abathur

To autoaim with Sentenzia is

To autoaim with Sentenzia is just 50% of max dps since you just hit one target at the same time. The Antigua series are able to hit to mobs since they do little splash like all guns.

Sentenza > Umbra and Bio vs Grems
Bio > Sentenza and Umbra vs Slimes
Umbra = allround with medium useage.

I'd go for Bio since Blitz Needle is the better gun vs grems. However if you just carry one gun get Sentenza :)

You also should read that one: http://forums.spiralknights.com/de/node/47177#comment-313857

Fri, 03/16/2012 - 17:47

Demonicsothe

Umbra still has the higher

Umbra still has the higher maximum dps

Fri, 03/16/2012 - 17:52

Shue-Donnym

@Batabii

Oh wait, right. Well, then I guess it should just be which damage you want...Multi target or single target?

Fri, 03/16/2012 - 23:33

Nubskills

Nyan nyan nyan nyan....

Thanks guys, I'm most likely going with Blackhawk now, for extra anti-gremlin stuff. However, I heard that the range is bugged until 5*, so maybe I should upgrade it quickly/put it off till later?
I'm also considering Blitz Needle for a gunner set, it seems quite useful too, for both fsc and general dps. The movement restrict seems a bit punishing though, if used wrong.
With the pure toothpick thing I mentioned, I was kinda referring to specialising in a single weapon of any kind, and using it as a sidearm for other weapon "classes". I was wondering if this idea is viable in terms of general dps, utility and defense; I've been considering a normal type weapon again, but meh.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 03:07

#10

Abathur

Nubskills, you just should

Nubskills, you just should add me ingame so i can show you all the shadow guns :) We can make some jelly, gremlin runs if you want :) Blackhawk has a range of 6-7 i guess while Sentenza has 9. You should first upgrade all your stuff to 4*, the first weapon to 5* should be Sentenza.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 04:30

#11

Nubskills

Nyan nyan nyan nyan....

Ah ok, thanks! It's okay though, I've seen the three guns at work in-game already lol :) Hmm, does that mean that Blackhawk has the same range as Antigua? I read somewhere that Silversix has a greater range than Blackhawk due to a bug o.o Runs? Sure! But i do much worse than usual on some days(and vice versa), so I might have to refuse runs if I realise that I'm having one of those days. I wouldn't want to hold anyone back lol
4* stuff? Hmm, which piercing gun should I go for? I was thinking Strike Needle after Blackhawk, since I already have a Prisma Driver.
So I guess my two summed up questions here would be:
1. Specialising in a single weapon for all-rounder/other classes use?
2. Piercing gun for a gunner set.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 04:38

#12

Regalya

Do ppl forgetting that

Do ppl forgetting that gremlins have decent cooldown on their dodge or do they ever knpw how easy to counter gremlin dodge ?
You dont shot where they are you shot where they will be.. their dodge patern 1 block to their behind(Where their back turned) so shot there and they will freaking headbutt your bullets lol
doesn't even matter what shadow gun you have i'd say Biohazard and Umbra even quicker to kill gremlins, bio killls off a mender with 1 clip pewpewpew dead in 1 sec it can't even open it's barrier same goes Umbra it's charge does not trigger the dodge ability.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 04:38

#13

Metagenic

just saying

Sentenza is a good gun for gremlins because of the shot pattern, fast bullets, and inherent damage bonus. However slimes have so much HP that you feel like they're tanking your shots even though they're shadow-vulnerable. Umbra charge can destroy slimes way better than a Sentenza.

About piercing guns: I've thought about it and I say that even a hardcore gunner should just pick up a piercing sword. Piercing guns limit your mobility way too much. Blitz Needle is a great dps gun but you have to have skill and timing to use it. Callahan is much safer to use, but it still hampers movement and the overall dps is terrible.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 07:03

#14

Abathur

Actually Regalya the doge

Actually Regalya the doge (you said in anther thread nerfed - you mean cooldown??? wtf don't make that game easier D:) is kinda tricky. If you shot with an Umbra directly on a grem, stayin' in front of him, he will jump back and the bullet disappears. That's how it worked when i stoped play 3 months ago :P

Actually i think the best allround Guns are:
Callahan
Polaris
Biohazard or Sentenza
Blitz Needle

Well you don't really need the Callahan at T3 anymore, but T2 Wolver will dodge the Blitz Attacks better than the T3 :P

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 09:57

#15

The-Rawrcake

@Demonicsothe

"Umbra still has the higher maximum dps"

That is extremely misleading.

Sentenza is so much better than umbra for single target damage. For AoE damage, Umbra is better.

Biohazard is quirky and chain charging it leaves you very vulnerable in comparison to normal shots. If you spam normal shots of Biohazard, get Umbra or Sentenza because they are actually made to have good normal shots. In addition, the charge attack damage from the explosions does not benefit from gun damage bonus currently.

The only thing Umbra shines on is packs of slimes. Sentenza for everything else, and Biohazard if you are hipster.

@Abathur

"Callahan
Polaris
Biohazard or Sentenza
Blitz Needle"

It is just outright silly to only carry Polaris as your elemental DPS gun. Spamming a Polaris, especially in a group, is just... silly.... for every day clockworks monsters.

If I come across a single scuttlebot, I want to take it out with my Argent Peacemaker. I have no reason to use Polaris utility knockback on a single scuttlebot...

Personally, if you are to use a single loadout of 4 guns and never switch ever (not suggested, you should have a wide variety of guns for many situations like alchemers)

Sentenza
Argent Peacemaker
Callahan
Polaris

Polaris for gun puppies, devilites, as well as knockback for survivability. Definately not to spam on everything as stated before.

If you were to get a fifth gun, a Blitz Needle is highly suggested, its charge attacks being amazing for Battlepods, Vanaduke, Trojans, etc.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 09:57

#16

Demonicsothe

/shrug Umbra can deal the

/shrug

Umbra can deal the most damage, mechanic-wise. That's just the way it works with ricochets. In normal situations, that won't happen. But if you do reach the skillcap with alchemers, they do outdps antigua line.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 11:26

#17

Somenubcake

what other weapons do you

what other weapons do you have and what loadouts do you generally use?

I currently run a sword/gun hybrid loadout (2 swords 2 guns). Because I mainly use my swords for single targets/very small groups, i use drivers instead of the antigua lines (the drivers are great for aoeing).

for a pure gunslinger loadout though, both are equally viable. but the sent gets the variety bonus (since u have a prisma already). Also, it's harder to do trick shots against cube jellies (and to a certain degree lichens) with the umbra.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 12:00

#18

The-Rawrcake

@Demonicsothe If you hit that

@Demonicsothe

If you hit that kind of skill cap to always 100% of the time double clip... then you are a robot xD

To compare, at d28 I think my Sent was dealing 168 damage at max damage bonus? Let's just say 160. A Nova Driver does 273 damage maxed out at d28.

So that's roughly 550 damage per bullet, 1100 per combo with an Umbra if you are a robot who has skill capped and always double clip. (I am using strong just so nobody takes this 1100 damage per combo as in all the time).

A Sentenza combo is roughly 960 after a full combo.

1100 if you are a robot vs. 960 damage if you are not a robot. The rest is entirely up to combos per minute.

Keep in mind that you do not always unload a clip using either gun.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 15:28

#19

Demonicsothe

But you are comparing clips.

But you are comparing clips. How about shots in a set amount of time? I'm pretty sure one can get off more than 1 alchemer clip the same time as 1 antigua clip.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 16:36

#20

Abathur

I have to say Demonicsothe is

I have to say Demonicsothe is right. You actually can shot 4 shots of Alchemer in the time of 6 of the Sentenza. But Sir you have also to say that it's possible to hit 2 targets with Sentenza aswell, wich actually is not so hard. Also the Sentenza has a lower chance of missing a target.

It just a fact that the guns are pretty balanced atm, so luck makes the most changes at DpS.

However about the Polaris useage vs a single shufflebot - why you go in that range the bullet expands? Polaris is outdamaging the AP by far. So sure you will use Polaris against Turrets for stunlock. Against Zombies, Blitz Needle works fine aswell to not confuse your allies. And against Mechas, they appear othen in hordes where you can use the splash better than a shield provoking AP. And if there are not many, just ignore them and get the other mobs aslong you got allies, and without allies noone cares if you use that gun. Actually you don't need another Ele gun, it just helps a bit. Its also a question if you really need Callahan if you got BN. You can hit everything with BN. So if you are solo get Calla and Blitz for more safety against Devilites, and with allies just BN, and exchange Calla with another Ele gun - so you don't have to disturb them with Polaris :)

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 16:45

#21

Demonicsothe

Unexpanded polaris bullets

Unexpanded polaris bullets doesn't do enough dps over ap/nova.

Abathur TL;DR I like trollarispam

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 18:57

#22

Otaia

You can not shoot 4 Alchemer

You can not shoot 4 Alchemer shots in the time it takes to shoot 6 Sentenza shots. The Sentenza gets nearly 5 shots off in the time it takes to fire the Alchemer twice.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/44630#comment-289546

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 20:22

#23

Nubskills

Nyan nyan nyan nyan....

From reading through the stuff(including Otaia's link) I've decided to stick with Blackhawk and Prisma Driver for now, both types seem just as good. Definitely going to use the shot-pause/shield cancel(can someone explain this? I'm only familiar with the shot pause method, and the only thing I could get it to help slightly with was switching weapons) method for both guns now, afterseeing the damage tests from the link.
Should I get a Strike Needle for FSC and dps as well? It seems much more dangerous than usual(my com's low framerate/server location lag) to use if I use it by timing, but I was thinking that it might be much safer than usual if I were to use it by position instead, i.e. in FSC with DA, sidestepping slags perpendicular to their attack direction instead of shielding(slag attack sometimes ignores shield). Would this still work though, or would the delay caused by the gun force me into using timing? Not that I don't like relying on timing normally, but I can't really do that much in SK.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 20:31

#24

Demonicsothe

Shoot pause shoot is for the

Shoot pause shoot is for the 2 clip alchemer lines. To shield cancel it, I tend to ease back into my toothpick ways. There is a rhythm for shoot shield cancel shoot. Too fast, and you go into reload. Too slow, and you become slower than shoot pause.

Shoot pause itself is a timing thing. Usually, your knight brings the gun up to bear, fires, and brings the gun back to idle/moving animation. As the gun approaches that animation, just before returning completely, the reload timer has expired.

You need a bit of timing to use strike needle on zombies. There is no knockback, and I believe only the last shot or so will interrupt. So no, it is not a safe choice, if my perception of your lag is correct.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 20:36

#25

Dukeplatypus

For some reason the blackhawk

For some reason the blackhawk has really broken range compared to the rest of the Antigua line. Imo if you use it, don't keep it at 4* too long.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 21:07

#26

Nubskills

Nyan nyan nyan nyan....

@Demonisothe
Yeah, I kinda found the optimal timing for shoot pause through some TH testing as well, but I also noticed that shoot cancel doesnt seem to improve the time for me. Rather, it seems to be the same as shoot pause from what I saw. Is it confirmed to be a clear improvement, or only a marginal one?
Aww, so just sidestepping won't work on monsters with Strike? I better do some testing with Autogun when I get my homework over with.

@Dukeplatypus
It looks as if the range remains the same as Antigua. o_o With the prices of the recipe, I guess it'll have to stay 4* for a while. Ah well, I better use it less after heating it up.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 21:16

#27

The-Rawrcake

"Polaris is outdamaging the

"Polaris is outdamaging the AP by far."

show me your tests. I want to see damage at the same depth with same damage bonus, and combos per minute.

Raw observations are very misleading.

"And against Mechas, they appear othen in hordes where you can use the splash better than a shield provoking AP."

You get them to shield one bullet. You unload an entire clip. It doesn't provoke their shields any different than any other gun...

"So if you are solo get Calla and Blitz for more safety against Devilites"

Have you ever used Hail / any other elemental alchemer + Polaris against devilites??? It is far better for survivability against packs of them, because all piercing guns cause immobility.

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 21:49

#28

Dukeplatypus

Trouble with polaris is the

Trouble with polaris is the kats that like to join in the fun who don't want to stay in place and/or stay far away to get max damage and the knockback.
And on a single target at full blast range AP out damages Polaris; indisputably at close range.
Oh, and Antigua is piercing, for the sake of being picky

Sat, 03/17/2012 - 21:58

#29

The-Rawrcake

I do not recall encountering

I do not recall encountering a problem with Kats because of my polaris, maybe they get obliterated within the fans of Polaris bullets along with the devilites, and even pit bosses. Just shield their attacks when you need to. Pop em with an alchemer or something if they are that much of an issue I guess.

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Sentenza or Umbra Driver?