Spiral Knights - [Update] Two Handed Weapons

[Update] Two Handed Weapons - Shield not included

30 replies [Last post]

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 20:47

Draciusen

How about weapons that are used with 2 arms, eliminating the use of a shield?

Of course, there would need to be some requirements for wielding such weapons, so there's no newbies running around without a shield, dying every 5 seconds.

~Requirements~
-Completion of the 6-2 "Hall of Heroes" mission
-Completion of all missions prior to the 6-2 "Hall of Heroes" mission (It's a given, but can't be too safe)

I think to that point, you'd have gained a grasp of basic combat mechanics, and can look on to more advanced play styles
And now, onto the weapons themselves!

~The Weapons~

When wielding a 2 hander, movement speed is increased by 10%, charged attacks leave the user running at normal speed, and charge much quicker than normal weapons.
To compensate for the loss of a shield, 2 handed weapons have an additional defense value and status resist, and incoming attacks do not knock back or interrupt the player. Attacks by a 2 handed weapon have a 100% chance to interrupt an enemy's attack (50% on bosses) on the final hit.

Greatsword Line - A large, classic two-hander issued by the Spiral Order
Howler Line - An accursed blade said to have been forged with the howls of the Void

Greatsword ** -> Grand Blade *** -> Rising Storm **** -> Volund *****
-------------------> Howler *** -> Reaver **** -> Shadren *****

-Greatsword Attacks-

COMBO: A slow, but powerful 3 strike combo that does not thrust the user forward except for the final attack, and does not knock back enemies in the same fashion.
Higher upgrades increase the range and add a stun possibility.

CHARGED: The user slams the sword against an enemy for high damage, creating a small shockwave that propels nearby enemies away as well.
Higher upgrades add damage to the shockwave, and increase the range.

SHIELD: The user windmills nearby enemies in a 360 degree radius, causing small damage and heavy knockback (Like a very weak Caliber charge). Repeated use of this function (No more than 2 times in 10 seconds) incurs a heavy stun on the user.

-Howler Attacks-

COMBO: A slow speed, medium damage 3 strike combo that does not thrust the user forward except the final attack, and does not knock back enemies in the same fashion.
Higher upgrades add a ghastly skull that damages enemies after the final strike.

CHARGED: The user rams the sword into the earth, causing ghasts to spew from the ground, sending enemies scattering.
Higher upgrades increase range.

SHIELD: Summons a ghast to fly in the user's direction, knocking down enemies in its path and propelling them away. Repeated use of this function (3 times in 10 seconds) incurs Curse on the user.

Siege Cannon Line - When not in use frying enemies, knights also like to use it as a marshmallow roaster
Zap Cannon Line - Monsters and knights agree, the chaining technology in this weapon is quite shocking indeed

Siege Cannon ** -> Blastbreaker *** -> Titanic **** -> The Exterminator *****
----------------------> Zap Cannon *** -> Shockblast **** -> Thunderblast

-Siege Cannon Attacks-

COMBO: The cannon sends an slow laser blast (Up to 2 times) that does not knockback enemies, and deal damage twice. While attacking, the user cannot move.
Higher upgrades add knockback and increase attack speed.

CHARGED: Sends out a laser beam that pushes enemies away and deal medium damage consecutively. User cannot move, but can rotate. Repeated use of the charge (3 times in 30 seconds), will create an explosion (Just an aesthetic one) and render the weapon useless for 2 seconds.
Higher upgrades increase overheat tolerance (Up to 5 times in 30 seconds).

SHIELD: An aerial laser strike occurs at the user's location, sending enemies flying away. Repeated usage (2 times in 10 seconds) incurs an overheat lasting 3 seconds.

-Zap Cannon Attacks-

COMBO: The cannon sends an electrical charge at the enemy (Up to 2), that can chain to another within a 3 square radius.
Higher upgrades increase the chain amount (Up to 3 chained), and radius (Up to 5 squares)

CHARGED: The cannon creates a lightning bolt at the user's location, paralyzing (For 2 seconds) and shocking nearby enemies. Repeated use causes an overheat function like the Siege Cannon.
Higher upgrades increase the range, and paralyze time (Up to 3 seconds).

SHIELD: A shockwave occurs at the user's location, knocking back enemies and paralyzing them for 2 seconds. Repeated usage incurs heavy shock on the user and causes an overheat.

I have no clue for 2 handed bombs. Eh, that doesn't make sense anyway, you already drop normal bombs with 2 hands.

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 21:01

Severage

...

No.

No. no. no, no, no, no, no.

Never eliminate the use of a shield.

If your view of using a shield is for 'newbies only', then you haven't gotten to T3 yet.

~Sev

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 21:15

Quasirandom

While we're at it, why not

While we're at it, why not add a button to the UI such that if you click on it, you delete your character, without asking for confirmation? The reason not to do that is about the same as the reason not to have two-handed swords: it's a bad idea to give players ways to sabotage their character with no plausible benefits.

There are already enough bad players in the game. Do we really need to tempt them to pick loadouts that make it so they have no hope of ever being good, decent, or even mediocre unless they scrap the gear they've leveled and start over?

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 21:54

Psychodestroyer

"Blow up the engines button."-KND

That's all I heard XD

Shields are CRITICAL for gameplay. No amount of attack power can compensate for that. Even a Proto shield in T3 can help a lot, with Shield bumping.

But even if you do this, some elite-wannabes will give themselves this no-shield handicap and whine about how the game is too hard for them because of the etcetcetc THEY HAVE NO SHIELD.

Also: Zap Cannon? You watch too much Pokemon.

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 22:14

Zxze

Hmm...

as phychodestroyer said, shields are infact critical for gameplay. So maybe we can bring both swords in front of us thus shielding ourselves. This helps protect from front attacks. But makes us vulnerable from the back.

And movement speed should Increase not Decrease... just imagine having 2 daggers and moving at the speed of a person with ancient plate set =.=

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 22:29

Tsubasa-No-Me

OK...

I can play without a sheild.. but MSD as well? No way buster, thats too much for even me!

Not only am I famous, but I inspire Hipster...ness... Yeah.
~Tsu

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 22:47

Kitastrophy

I don't need a shield to do

I don't need a shield to do T3 Vana with my guild, hit and run tactics work just fine. There's a reason we carry varied gear for gunning, bombing and swords.

A forth heavy hitter sounds like a joyous addition instead of the same old swordsman. I like your idea.

Sun, 04/08/2012 - 22:48

Oakwolfsbane

I think it would call for a

I think it would call for a new realm of game play that would be interesting.
It is true, there are probably not a lot of experienced players that would be able to grasp it correctly and that offering such an option would just lead to more whining and what not, but that doesn't mean this idea is /bad/.

There are alternative solutions such as perhaps, offering it to players who have attained T3 and whatnot. Of course, I clearly haven't put much thought in that regard, but to shut down this idea as a whole because you think shields are essential is kind of harsh. I know of several players that have never really relied too much on shields and this would be a new concept.
As for other people who feel shields are essential, this can pose as a new challenge. There are tons of people on Spiral Knights right now that are constantly trying new things like making new records or doing Vanaduke solo etc, and going without a shield can just be another one on that list.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 01:49

Tsubasa-No-Me

Kita...

Can you Solo? Even better, can you Solo with MY GEAR?!?! >:3

Not only am I famous, but I inspire Hipster...ness... Yeah.
~Tsu

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 01:55

Severage

Mhm...

And when you get cornered by some enemies without a shield-knockback mechanism, what do you do?

You die. Using a Swifstrike Buckler is for those who hardly use their shield as it is (Yet play T3), but they can still knock enemies away with the shield, shield-cancel, etc.

Shields are used for much more than blocking damage.

If anything, it's removing an element of the game, not adding to it.

~Sev

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 02:19

#10

Derpules

Much as this suggestion is overdone

it isn't as bad as you guys are making out. Players could still retain a shield-bump (hilt-bump?) function and/or even shield for minimal defence. It could work.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 02:26

#11

Severage

@Derpules:

If you were to draw upon all the people's ideas who have tried to make Dual-Wielding work, then yes.

However, this OP in specific specifically said that it would sacrifice your shield. Therefore, thread gets a -1.

~Sev

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 03:08

#12

Derpules

Fair 'nuff.

Concurring -1.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 06:33

#13

Orangeo

I'm against this purely

I'm against this purely because it is spam and should be deleted. I can copy-paste a whole page of dual weilding threads exactaly like this.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 07:29

#14

Aplauses

Text fix! If you have done 5-2 rank mission.. Of course you have done the other boss mission too..

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 07:52

#15

Alpha-Stevo

Nick and the development team

Nick and the development team already mentioned that removin' a player's shield is far too costly for the benefits gain.

Meanin' that, unless ya can sway his opinion, this isn't too likely.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 08:02

#16

Sentinel-Zx

Well there is one thing

Well there is one thing that 2-handlers with no shield is optional for. If people are using 2-handed swords and no shield, people will get killed easily. Am I right. The 2-hand swords should be used as a front shield if you know what I mean.

I've went over this before. What I'm saying is that if these swords are "big", needing 2 hands to hold them, then they should be optional frontal shields like trojans and slag guards. How it works is holding the large blade in front of the knight, but no where else thus it is technically a shield without having one. I will repeat the front is the shielded area, but not the sides or back. (Recommended for skilled fighters).

Anyone getting what I'm saying. Feel free to post w/e you want about this.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 08:13

#17

Zyborg

There's one thing I wonder

There's one thing I wonder about these two-handed swords people keep suggesting, and I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before. We already have huge swords that we can wield with one hand, so how massive would a sword have to be before we need two hands to wield it?

@Sentinel-Zx Would you still need to press the shield button, or would this be an automatic guard like the trojans and slag guards have?

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 08:28

#18

Sentinel-Zx

You need to shield

You need to shield as if you have a shield. So yes you press the "shield" button to shield using the sword. I'm only putting in my idea if 2-handed swords are

pretty large. DA and GF aren't large swords, but Sudaruska and its icy counterpart are decent large swords that could fit in that 2-hand spot. Don't want to

change the troika line to a 2-hand. If 2-hand swords aren't as large as the size that I am thinking of then my whole idea would be out.

So this is a little support to your idea Draciusen.

This was also a support to dual weapons in another topic using both swords to shield the front.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 08:44

#19

Hexzyle

There is a surmisable chunk

There is a surmisable chunk of information regarding decent ways to implement dual wielding in this thread, especially regarding shields:

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/48564

I suggest anyone who wants to suggest dual wielding have a readover of it before creating another dual wielding thread.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 14:56

#20

Draciusen

Good points.

@Hexzyle: Dual wield would be using 2 swords, correct? Well, my idea would be holding one weapon with 2 hands.

@Severage: Point taken on the whole monster-gangbang. I don't know how to explain it, but the person's gonna have to be playing a game of keep-away with 2 handed weapons. Hmm...

And as for how big would a 2 handed sword need to be, it isn't about how BIG it is. It's about how HEAVY it is. You could be holding a 10 foot long hollow cardboard tube, and it'd still be pretty easy to use, if not a bit clunky.

I'll change the mechanics a little bit to compensate more for the lack of a shield.

Swords and cannons now have a shield function when pressed, and changes to all 2 handed weapons:

-No speed reduction on charges, slight speed increase when walking
-Fast ish charges
-100% chance to interrupt an enemy's attack on the final strike (Or I was thinking a 30% chance with every hit instead)
-Attacks cannot be interrupted, cannot be knocked back with a 2 handed weapon (So basically, you're like The Juggernaut)
-Increase in the defense value, and a status resist

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 15:50

#21

The-Ark

Sorry, no.

Lets make this clear:

ANYTHING, i repeat, ANYTHING, that eliminates or changes the way a shield is used is NOT a good thing. Yes you put shield-like uses for them in, but those aren't really shields, they're simply more attacks.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 15:51

#22

The-Ark

Ignore this

Double post on tablet, -_- crap.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 16:55

#23

Sheepsofthelegion

Here you go, kid.

There are three no-no's on this thread, and they are
1. No ce/ecomomy changes
2. No healing weapons
3. and NO dual weild or dual hand weapons.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 20:48

#24

Psychodestroyer

You forgot the most notorious.

PETS.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 00:15

#25

Severage

@Draciusen:

Yeah...

We already use Two-Handed weapons with one hand AND a shield.

See GF, DA, Sudaruska, Triglav, etc.

~Sev

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 02:18

#26

Hexzyle

@Draciusen

"Dual wield would be using 2 swords, correct? Well, my idea would be holding one weapon with 2 hands"

Mechanics wise, when you're taking away the shield, they're the same thing. They might be visually different, but they both alter the gameplay in the same way: Higher damage output for more risk.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 19:05

#27

Luguiru

Beating a dead stick with a horse

Aside from the previously posted, there are a few little details with issues.

1- +10% movement
By using a weapon large enough to force you to drop your shield you move faster. How would this work? Two handed swords are not exactly as swift and agile as they may appear on television or wherever you see them.

2- No movement penalty for charge attacks
There is a reason charge attacks are not all the same speed while in use; see Graviton/Electron.

3- Shieldless compensation
Weapons with defense is not even funny. The only way this would fly is if the weapon were intentionally low damage and impractical for offensive combat styles. Complete resistance to attack knockback and interruption contracts the purpose of dropping your shield, seeing as you would only be holding a large sword. Guarunteed attack interruption for non-boss enemies is not going to be applied to any weapon, let alone attack interruption against bosses.

4- Three hit combo
Considering heavy one-handed swords have a two hit combo, why would an even bigger sword be three? Have you held a real two-handed sword before? They are heavy enough to not swing as fast as you may think. As for the no-thrusts, I again connect this to realistic use; two-handed swords tend to be large enough to need the momentum to slice through whatever is in front of you, requiring a lunge to help you slash. I am not ordering you to run out and buy a two-handed sword to murder people, though if you do be sure to clean up after. I hate to find inaccurately sliced corpses laying around, blood staining the recently cleaned floor.

5- The charge attacks
Both are essentially an overpowered pushback. That is all. This point does not have its own paragraph.

6- The "shielding" attacks
Offensive shielding will never exist. This point also does not have a paragraph.

7- The sentry/"Siege Cannon"
I posted somewhere about making turrets for player use but it involved having parts in weapon slots and forcing the player to "build" the weapon. I admit this is flawed due to dependency on someone with you to keep enemies off you, though as we all know teamwork in Spiral Knights is rare. It would also essentially make the player a Battlepod.

As previously posted, posts of this forum shall not be based upon:
- Economic over-stimulation, resulting in massive inflation
- Healing other than pills found in the Clockworks or bought at Moorcraft/Emberlight
- Dual wielding/two handed weapons
- Pets
- Gremlin option for players
- Having barely enough content to do anything with (see threads by Bluebrawler)
- Allowing players to be overpowered, especially if said overpowered item(s) is/are only accessible by premium players
- Selfish reskins unnecessary for the game which do not benefit the company

Further commandments may be applied in the future, most likely when someone does something indescribably stupid.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 19:41

#28

Earthboundimmortal

nice idea

Good except the fact that you can't use shields, i would be fine if it gave you a shield that goes around you though ! :D

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 20:15

#29

Luguiru

The above poster is missing the point

Battle mechanics heavily rely on having a shield with you. This thread aims to remove the necessity of shields in combat with two-handed weapons. If we had a shield with it the weapons would just be heavy swords and no-strafe guns; see Sealed and Troika lines for heavy swords, Autogun and Magnus lines for no-strafe guns. We already have those four and they may be used with a shield. This thread wants to have weapons without shields. I am repeating myself. I am repeating myself.

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 00:02

#30

Hexzyle

@Luguiru

"Having barely enough content to do anything with (see threads by Bluebrawler)"

I lol'd.

The above poster is missing the point

He means that the idea of no shields is not good. He say's he would be fine with the idea if you have some form of a shield, instead of going completely without.

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[Update] Two Handed Weapons - Shield not included