Spiral Knights - Reasonable Discussion on Dual-Wielding Mechanics (This isn't just an "i want 2 sords kthnxbye" thread)

Reasonable Discussion on Dual-Wielding Mechanics (This isn't just an "i want 2 sords kthnxbye" thread)

136 replies [Last post]

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 13:18

Hexzyle

Please read this entire post before posting: it will cover things that you shouldn't bring up in this thread (because it's been discussed thousands of times before) and give you a general idea of what we're discussing here.

Now I know there is a lot of threads about dual wielding, but the majority of them have either a crappy OP, or bad user feedback for self-spawned reasons, often without reading other's posts.

Having a look at this thread: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/48265 just displayed how people now would rather rage at the OP instead of read the thread. It also mentions that the Developers would not mind adding in Dual Wielding if it was PROPERLY THOUGHT OUT.

Nick also stated that if he were to implement dual wielding, it would be with a weapon set specially designed for it, and with a shield, albeit a limited one.

GOOD
These are ideas which could work
* An aesthetic change
Merely an animation which alters how the knight swings a sword/shoots a gun and makes it appear as if he has two, but does not alter the mechanics/damage/speed of the weapon at all.
* Dual-wielding Specific Weapons
Weapons that are custom made to be dual wielded, and balanced for this purpose. It could be two half-strength brandishes, or a vastly new weapon, such as the frequently suggested dagger.

Autofire brought up some examples here.
Fehzor had a different method of doing it here.

PLAUSABLE
These ideas have not been discussed thoroughly enough to determine whether or not they would be good or bad.
* A weakened defensive technique:
Anything but uni-directional blocking. Discuss this point, it hasn't been thought through enough.

BAD
These are ideas which would NOT work. You may discuss them but only if they're accompanied by a wall of text explaining why
* Any mechanism that removes the shield entirely, or makes it block only attacks from a certain direction.
Nick has already stated that you cannot fight in T3 without a shield. T1 is where players can fight without shields...but later tiers it just becomes too difficult.
* Being able to dual wield existing weapons, at least without SEVERE rebalancing issues.
This is a big one, and recurrs a lot in threads because people do not read the rest of the posts!'
* Dual wielding bombs
There isn't really a way to make this look even moderately sensible. A replacement for dual wielding bombs is multi-exploding bombs such as the Dark Reprisal series and the Shard Bombs.

Weak and overused arguments
Please do not use any of the following as a supporting statement for whatever you're going to say
* "You can't hold two weapons without dropping the shield"
The Nightblade shows that the shield is attached to the arm, rather than held in the hand. Overly large weapons such as Sadaruska and Triglav prove that our knight can hold vastly large and clumsy weapons without any adverse effects such as loss of balance.
* "Takes a lot of work for the Developers"
I'm not discussing the plausibility of the dual-wielding concept, but instead about how it would work if it were implemented. Time is irrelevant. If something is really wanted in a game, Developers will make time for it.

Topics Covered so far
So far we've gone over the problems of a unbalanced-appearing shield + 2 sword combination, and have come up with a possible smaller costume shield for this purpose. Also discussed the shield suffering health penalties.

Is there anything I have missed, or that you disagree with?

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 13:51

Trollingyou

Hmmmmm

I don't think two half-strength weapons would work, except for cosmetic purposes. Why do two half hits when you can just do a whole hit? If dual wielding were to be implemented, there would have to be a reason or purpose to use it, of course with conditions. An example:

Pro: Dual wielded weapons deal 60 percent of what the weapon normally does but hit twice as much in the same time frame as a single weapon.
Con: Makes your blocking reduce damage by 50% as opposed to negate it all together. Your shield will still wear down and break like normal.

In this case, dual wielding gives you better offense, at the cost of defense. You can dual wield for more damage or single wield to retain your shielding advantage.

Also there is the issue of dual wielding bombs and Lockdown. Swords and guns would fit easily, but what would dual wield bombs do, and what effect would this have on Lockdown?

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 14:54

Schattentag

@Hexzyle

Just for clarification, what did you mean in your response to the "You can't hold two weapons without dropping the shield" argument?

I commend you for attempting to create a level-headed discussion on dual-wielding. People are probably going to see the topic and want to spew crap at it, but let's hope they see your name behind it and think twice.

Nitpicks:
Recur has only two r's in it
The word is "plausible", not "plausable"
There's a random apostrophe at the end of the second bullet point in the "BAD" section

@Trollingyou
Did you read this in the "BAD" section of the OP?

"Being able to dual wield existing weapons, at least without SEVERE rebalancing issues. This is a big one, and recurrs a lot in threads because people do not read the rest of the posts!"

Whether you did or not, I personally think it's better to make weapons specifically for dual-wielding. It avoids the rebalancing issue altogether.

As for bombs, I think it's just unreasonable for them to be dual-wielded. It just doesn't make any sense. Again, rather than adding some kind of dual-wield ability to existing weapons, I think it's better to simply make new swords/guns that can be dual-wielded.

One issue I have with dual-wielding that pertains specifically to swords is the fact that they might make the cutter line somewhat obsolete - they're going to be weak swords with lots of hits, similar to cutters. I guess if the swords' attributes are different enough, it's probably not too big of a problem, but it's something to think about.

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 14:55

Aemicus

"TL;DR" "GTFO" So, I'm not to

"TL;DR"
"GTFO"

So, I'm not to happy when I read the entire thread, and then the TL;DR tells me everything that I need to know: That the OP is a senseless fool who would rather just have people agree with him than actually have a discussion thread by basically telling people not to say things that could disprove his poorly thought out arguments. Well, have fun trying to discuss an overused, horrible idea that will most likely never be implemented.

I won't be returning to this thread, so don't bother to reply to this.

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 15:16

Hexzyle

I apologize to all who were

I apologize to all who were offended by that last bit, if Aemicus wasn't the only one. I meant TL;DR - GTFO as a response to all those who couldn't be bothered reading my thread post, because there are a lot of people out there who will read just three lines and then feel the impulsive urge to comment.

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 15:29

Trollingyou

@Schattentag

Yes, I did read it. Not only that, but I have read many other threads on dual wielding. I suppose you didn't read or understand my example. I'll elaborate on it:

Say we have a sword that normally hits 100 on mobs and hits 3 times totaling for 300 damage. When dual wielded, it only deals 60 percent of it's normal damage, making it 60 per hit. However, it will be able to hit 6 times instead of 3 totaling 360 damage instead of 300. That is not a severely broken damage increase, now is it?

However, there should be a cost as free damage would make single wielded weapons obsolete. Lets say our dual wielding knight has a total of 20 hp. each hit he takes from mobs will take away 4 hp form him, meaning he'll die from 5 hits. Normally, he can alleviate this by using his shield to block attacks, but while dual wielding his shield will only halve the damage to 2, so he will take damage no matter what if hit, and if his shield breaks he can no longer halve the damage because his shield is broken.

Hopefully, that will be easier to understand. Also, this is ONLY and example, not a final say. It is something to build off of or generate ideas. I do not agree with making specific weapons dual wielded, one reason you mentioned already and two it would be pointless, except for cosmetic purposes. Why make a dual wield sword that hits 8 times when you can just make a single sword that hits 8 times? Like you mentioned, the cutter lines are already weak swords that hit lots of times. Even for guns, we have the antiguas

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 15:57

Hexzyle

@Schattentag

People say "you can't hold a shield and a sword in one hand, it's too heavy", but look at the Troika, it's freakin rediculous.

Also, the usual nightblade argument too, for those who don't know of it, the fact that the shield is attached to the arm and not held in the hand.

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 16:15

Hexzyle

@Trollingyou

Hmm, halving damage sounds very painful. I mean, any hits you take in t3 are already detrimental to your success, even if they are at half strength. There's a thread up and about about improving swiftstrike buckler so it can take at least one hit in tier 3, because having a shield that doesn't really sheild at all is no better than just dodging.
Perhaps a shield with half the health of a regular one, would be semi-decent.

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 18:16

Trollingyou

@Hexzyle

I see what you mean, maybe it would be too much of a penalty for the T3 areas. Was worried that negating damage while dual wielding, which in theory would increase your overall damage, would be too powerful, especially for a gunner. Having the shield that wears out faster might help balance it out though like you said.

Also thought of a possible idea for dual wield bombs: The bomber will lay two bombs down in the same location instead of one, making them more effective by a percentage less than 100, but they will walk slower while charging instead of the shield penalty. Not the best idea but it's something, lol.

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 19:42

Schattentag

@Trollingyou

I did read your original example, but now that you've elaborated, I have a much clearer understanding of it. Thanks!

Now that it's been clarified, I guess it's a decent idea for balancing preexisting weapons. Since you said all the hits would happen in the same time frame as the original weapon, and they would deal a total of 120% of the original weapon's damage, I'm going to consider it about the same as a High Damage Increase UV (approximately 21% according to data on the wiki). So essentially you're getting Damage Increase High and more interesting cosmetics at the expense of half your shield's effectiveness. I agree with Hexzyle in that it might be better to just halve your shield's health instead.

Going back to the creation of specific dual-wielding weapons that don't affect shielding at all, it really is just a cosmetic difference, but that's never necessarily a bad thing. We can use the Nightblade as an example here, too - the fact that its sheath is held in the left hand is just a cosmetic difference compared to other brandishes. Of course, the weapon itself is different, though. The way I see it, a new dual-wielding sword could be like a 6-hit double brandish that deals stun or something (this example just comes out of simplicity; I don't know/care whether it should be taken seriously).

One thing to be considered with preexisting weapons is how knockback would work. Since your example mechanic takes the same amount of time, could we just say every other hit deals knockback?

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 21:02

#10

Trollingyou

@Schattentag

Glad you understand. That idea of knockback sounds good, that way it won't work against itself. Many would be disappointed if the half the hits never landed, lol.

I guess it would be bad if you had to sacrifice shield effectiveness just to dual wield, as some do want it just for the looks. An accessory item that makes you dual wield for cosmetics, could be implemented for those who just want the looks, and/or new weapons (double Winmillion, anyone?).

Though there is the issue of charge attacks. Dual wielded weapons that are added to the game will have their own charges, meaning this won't be an issue for them. Having to add more charges into the game just for existing dual weapons sounds like a task, and some weapon's charges don't make sense for dual wielding, like the Divine Avenger. This is probably one of the reason's why dual wield bombs don't seem to make sense: It caters more toward regular attacks. Guns may be a little easier, as they can just shoot two charged shots instead of one (at reduced power obviously), but what do about swords is another issue.

Also thought of another idea for bombs: A "dual wielded" bomb will explode twice, instead of once. If a bomb's timer were to be divided into 4 parts, the first blast would happen at 3/4 the normal time and the second blast at 6/4 the normal time, so it would take longer for the second blast but the first blast comes sooner. Any knock-back dealt would be on the second blast, like your idea for the other weapons. The damage of the blasts would be at the same ratios of the other weapons. I guess the shield penalty would work here too, just worried about how it would affect a bombers crowd control ability, especially with the haze bombs (Super Overpowered Shivermist incoming?). Would it become so good shields would not be needed?

Sun, 03/25/2012 - 22:13

#11

Schattentag

@Trollingyou

I have no idea how a dual-wielded vortex bomb would work. Just putting that out there.

Charge attacks would indeed be weird. I feel like each type of charge has to be taken into consideration separately. Calibur-style charges might just do 6 hits with knockback dealt every other hit. Troika-style charges might be like the charge attack on the Warmaster Hammers. Brandish-style charges could simply have two parallel lines of explosions maybe. Cutter-style charges...would just do more hits in the same amount of time? Perhaps Flourish-style charges could be like a thrust-slash-thrust-slash-thrust-slash?

I think the sword types that are most concerning include Snarble Barbs, Sealed Swords, and Warmaster Hammers.

For guns I was thinking that perhaps you could unleash a charge attack in one direction using one gun, then a certain amount of time after starting that attack you would start a charge attack in whatever direction the cursor is using the other gun. For example, say you've got two Antiguas. When you release the attack button after charging up, you start a charge attack using the gun in your right hand. A second later, you start a charge attack using the gun in your left hand, and that gun would be pointed in the direction of the cursor at that time. For this mechanic, the amount of time between attacks would probably vary depending on the gun - it wouldn't make sense to stand still for a second after shooting a charged alchemer. Like you said, these charge attacks would each have their power reduced.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 01:48

#12

Rommil

simple suggestions.

First: I am not in favor of duel wielding, two-handed swords/axes, or heavy guns (well i am sorta in favor of heavy guns / cannons :)

SHIELDING:
Not allowed. You are vulnerable while your weapon is equipped. Maybe a weapon guard that blocks 1/4 of the power, but you still get smashed pretty viscously. Your shield is on your back. You can turn to deflect some little damage, kinda like Gremlins do, but its still a very poor substitute for having a shield.

Switching back over to using a shield (or weapon switching in general, to another 2 handed weapon, or single + shield)
All of your weapons will have charge attacks. 2 handed weapons even stronger charge attacks. But instead of one charge level, 2 handed (or duel wield) will have a 2 part charge. first part (regular charge length) then an extended charge.
If you release @ first charge no extra damage.
2nd charge will be your best charge attack.

Why 2 part?
Because switching weapons is also going to be an encumbered action, with your 2 weapons or 2 handed weapons. So, to switch weapons you have to hit the first charge, and then you can press to switch weapons!!!!!

In this manner, you could not deal out your extra damage and then just switch to your shield in time for regular defense. No, you'd fully well have to charge up (remaining vulnerable) to switch back to a shield.

just random thots off the top of my head. i won't be hurt if no one agrees, since i don't want 2 handed or duel wield new ays.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 02:51

#13

Tuhui

When did acheron become an

When did acheron become an acceptable argument for shields? Sheaths are made of light weight material that can not even come close to the weight of a sword. Your grip on it will be different than a sword. You hold it near the top so most of the weight is toward the ground when you lift your shield up to block. You hold your sword by the hilt and when you lift your shield to block you have to keep the full weight of your sword up and with the extra weight of the shield it will put alot of extra stress on your arm that would weaken your defence.

You also realize how big and bulky some of our shields are right? How do you expect us to keep the same attack speed with the sword arm that has the shield equiped? The only reason to dual-wield is to incraese attack speed but haveing 2 of the same type of weapons would not work because one would be slowed because you shield creates drag and it also decreases overall monuverability.

How many game have there been that allowed you to have a shield and 2 swords equiped?

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 05:21

#14

Hexzyle

Re:

@Schattentag and @Trollingyou
Yes, Dual-wielding swords is fairly simple, as is guns. (for a cosmetic change you could just have 2 antiguas that fire 3 bullets each in an alternating fashion) However instead of dual wielding bombs, perhaps a new bomb style could be thought up for this, such as a multi-striking bomb as you mentioned. The Dark Reprisal and Retributions seem to be a good example of such a bomb. It would need to have a good knockback timing, or none at all. In the case of the Dark Reprisal, an initial large explosion with minimal knockback and then rotating damaging orbs which cause no knockback. This sounds like two seperate bombs, right? I'm sure more bombs can be made like this.

@Rommil
As realistic as you have made it, dual-wielding would not be able to work in this manner, at least not pleasantly. Directional shielding would be a new game mechanic, and would be difficult to include. Would the shield be always up? When would it break? Having to turn around everytime you needed to block an attack would be irritating in the least. There has to be a way to work shielding in with dual wielding otherwise the whole idea falls apart. Unfortunately no-one has figured out how to do it yet.

@Tuhui
As I mentioned in the OP, The troika is a weapon which, realistically, would be impossible to carry and swing at the speed that knights do in one hand. The Troika is made out of a stone-like substance, and the proportion of it offbalances the character. Not to mention shields like the Volcanic Plate Shield can be easily carried by the character without display of struggling under the weight.

Therefore the weight and clumsiness of the second weapon with the shield is null, the knights armour obviously houses some sort of mechanical assistance for heavy lifting...not to mention some sort of wierd antigravitational system or maybe just a pair of REALLY HEAVY BOOTS to keep balanced.

How many games have there been that allowed you to have a shield and a 2 handed sword equipped?

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 05:27

#15

Hexzyle

How about...

How about a new type of shield/shield appearance that applies to dual wielding, a shield costume you might say?
A shield the size of a swiftstrike would look sensible.

This would allow dual-wielding to not look so stupid when swinging around a 2 cutter-like swords with a VPS stuck to your arm.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 05:44

#16

Shoebox

Dual wielding doesn't fit

Dual wielding doesn't fit with any pre-existing combat mechanic whatsoever, and in-fact, from a design standpoint, works against what little balancing they've actually done with the game.

Lockdown is a pretty obvious example of this.

Personally I don't think that it's a very good idea in any respect. I've made suggestions for temporary weapon pickups in the past that are mostly two handed or have built in shields or their own health that protects your own, but I find that implementing these would also take things like new monster types or reworks of pre-existing types. And possibly even new levels built around these items, which is a lot of work for a largely unnecessary addition to the game.

I don't think I've ever seen a game where dual wielding wasn't a suggested thing anyway, so to say that because it gets a lot of hype and the developers want to put it in because of feedback doesn't mean that it will ever see the light of day. It's just not feasible by any stretch without a serious overhaul of pre-existing content and a monstrous amount of new content. There's no easy way to put it in or it would be in already.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 05:48

#17

Kentard

Well, here are my thoughts...

Dual Wielding Bombs
Out of the question. While I concur that it's totally possible, don't forget that you have to lift the bomb up in the air to charge it.
My objection to this is not because it's impossible, but because it looks plain silly to lift two bombs in the air, or one bomb on top of the other.

How about a new type of shield/shield appearance that applies to dual wielding, a shield costume you might say?
A shield the size of a swiftstrike would look sensible.
Simple enough. Make shields that are 4* and above incompatible with dual-wielded weapons. Sacrifice on defences, have a marginally higher attack power than others. And this is of course with custom-made weapons.

* An aesthetic change:
Merely an animation which alters how the knight swings a sword/shoots a gun and makes it appear as if he has two, but does not alter the mechanics/damage/speed of the weapon at all.
Looks a little out of place if the stats are the same, but I'm not complaining too much if it looks better. This can possibly be like a 'weapon costume'; i.e. dual wielding guns and swords.

* Dual-wielding Specific Weapons:
Weapons that are custom made to be dual wielded, and balanced for this purpose. It could be two half-strength brandishes, or a vastly new weapon, such as the frequently suggested dagger.
If you can make something fast with one hand, there's not much need for two.
That being said, we already have the Cutter as a 'dagger-like weapon'; so unless there's a weapon with vastly improved or innovative attack mechanics there really isn't much need for custom-made dual weapons. Again this boils down to how the creator of the weapon makes it.
Two revolvers that fire twice as fast as an Antigua and with 12 bullets is doable, but soooo original.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 06:05

#18

Hexzyle

Thanks for your input, everyone

@Shoebox
I understand where you're coming from, but I don't entirely comprehend what you're saying. Granted, there are some ways of dual wielding that would require an overhaul to work, but what i'm trying to achieve here is the most minimalistic method possible.

@Kentard
"Dual Wielding Bombs"
I agree, it would just not work out, and I can't even fathom how they would make it look without being stupid. I'd rather they place their time in neat bombs like the Dark Reprisal series. The multi-explosions are comparable to dual wielding, without being as rediculous as it.

"Shields above 3* incompatable with dual wielding"
Sounds pretty simple. Tsu doesn't use big hefty shields because Tsu likes the SSB. I don't know how well they do with it in T3, but I guess they manage.

"Aesthetic change"
Yes, this idea is fairly old, but still nice, I won't reiterate all the info on it.

"Dual Wielding Specific weapons"
Dual wielding existing rebalanced weapons I am not particularly for, and twin daggers I'm not that into either, I just put it up there so that people wouldn't bring it up again.
Dual wielding swords, yes, but not fast ones. Twin fast swords are easily replaced by the cutter. Say two Calibur sized swords, with a different strike combo. Because of the fact that you have two swords, you can perform some manouveres that aren't possible with a single sword.
Although i think twin antiguas looks cool, I don't like the antigua line at all. I'm an Alchemer and Magnus type of guy, I prefer my shots to actually do more than just tickle my enemy when they hit. Now that I think about it, 2 Handed swords and guns could also fit into this thread...

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 06:12

#19

Tuhui

What makes you think Trokia

What makes you think Trokia would be that hard to wield? Look at the other 5* swords we use and compaire them, not that great of a weight difference and another thing to take into consideration is weight disrabution. The trokia lines have longer and heavier hil so the center of balance is not that far from the user as one would expect increasing control of the weapon, but there is no way a sword and a shield that close to each other would work would be able to work well. If your hilt gets caught on your shield it would knock you off balance and leave you open for attack. There are many flaws with dual-sword and shield combat that makes it useless, especialy when most of our shields are bulky.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 06:14

#20

Kentard

And moar responses~

Dual wielding swords, yes, but not fast ones. Twin fast swords are easily replaced by the cutter. Say two Calibur sized swords, with a different strike combo. Because of the fact that you have two swords, you can perform some manouveres that aren't possible with a single sword.
Again it's still pretty much aesthetic, what with the fancy movesets and all. So long as it's not overly fancy with a cavalcade of flips and rolls (which we don't have in this game because our Knights aren't very acrobatic) while slicing away, I'm fine with it.
And medium-sized swords seem just about right. Two fast swords = plain redundant. Two slow swords = well, we're not that beefy.

Although i think twin antiguas looks cool, I don't like the antigua line at all. I'm an Alchemer and Magnus type of guy, I prefer my shots to actually do more than just tickle my enemy when they hit.
Totally agree. :0 Then again the 5-shot-shield combo does ramp up your dps to a fair amount. Fair, mind you, not exceptional.

Now that I think about it, 2 Handed swords and guns could also fit into this thread...
Very tricky; it's tough to get the grip right with things like rifles and greatswords.

I was inclined to do a rifle concept, and it's still lurking somewhere in my art folders, but it looks plain silly on a Knight with armor (nevermind that guns are out of place enough); that and the shields interfere with certain elements of the rifle.
Also have you tried holding a rifle and a shield before? Possible, but very very unstable.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 06:54

#21

Hexzyle

@Tuhui

Here's a comparison of the troika's size:
http://i.imgur.com/ASTVt.png

I took a few screenshots of the troika mid-swing. In order to swing sword like that, it would gather a lot of momentum and pull you forwards during the swing. Not to mention the sword is already outstretched past the knight's centre of balance, especially the middle image, that looks horribly tedious:

http://imgur.com/a/F0mtN

So this isn't about balance or strength, because those two concepts are clearly not prevailent in Spiral Knights.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 08:32

#22

Trollingyou

Responses

@Shoebox
A foundation for dual wielding is already in game: the cutter line. They act like a "single-dual wield" weapon, in that you attack once to hit twice, with the second hit for each strike being bonus damage if you land it. After all, you don't click 10 times to land all ten strikes, you only click 5 times.

If a proper penalty was implemented, it should not imbalance Lockdown. If you read the examples that were used earlier, you would see that it is entirely possible to implement dual wielding in a sensible fashion that is not in anyway broken. Only animations would have to be made for it, which would have to be made for any dual wield specific weapon that is put into the game.

@Kentard
While I agree it would look silly lifting two bombs, one in each hand, I don't agree that it bombers should be left out because of this. It would be like gunners being left out with Shadow Lair armors, and we don't want repeat of that. Like it has been mentioned before, a bomb with multiple stages of blasts would be similar enough, and can create some interesting bombs.

2-Handed weapons sound interesting, how would they work differently from one handed weapons? Don't worry about things being out of place, this game is about knights wielding high tech energy weaponry capable of vanquishing many things among which are living jello, cat-bat hybrids, professional evil entities, furry geniuses.... (well, you get the point, lol)

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 09:20

#23

Kentard

@Trollingyou:

While I agree it would look silly lifting two bombs, one in each hand, I don't agree that it bombers should be left out because of this. It would be like gunners being left out with Shadow Lair armors, and we don't want repeat of that.
Irrelevant. There's no need for a bomber to have a dual-wielded weapon if they have nice bombs already.
That being said, the dual wielded weapons that are implemented anyway would never be way overpowered in comparison to bombs; if being left out is your concern just advocate for new bombs to be made. Hey, you got Dark Reprisal.

Like it has been mentioned before, a bomb with multiple stages of blasts would be similar enough, and can create some interesting bombs.
Multiple stages (e.g. a cluster bomb or a bouncing betty), maybe. Two bombs on top of each other, no.

Don't worry about things being out of place, this game is about knights wielding high tech energy weaponry capable of vanquishing many things among which are living jello, cat-bat hybrids, professional evil entities, furry geniuses.... (well, you get the point, lol)
Regardless, a rifle is just tricky to hold with a shield. Same applies to a greatsword (yes, I get the picture - weight distribution, center of gravity yadda yadda yadda); point is a shield has to be small enough or it won't work because your sword would have to poke through the shield.

2-Handed weapons sound interesting, how would they work differently from one handed weapons?
That's a very good point; especially for melee weapons. I'm pretty sure we don't want a slower Troika; or something that makes that line more useless than it already is.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 09:22

#24

Schattentag

Regarding dual-wield bombs...

What if there was bomb came in parts that had to be combined before becoming potent? Using the oft mentioned Jelly Bomb for an example, we could have a knight holding a cube of jelly in one hand, and its explosive core in the other. Upon charging, the knight brings both parts together over his/her head, making a blast cube bomb.

Of course, this is simply an aesthetic change to the existing bomb mechanic, but for those who simply want the aesthetic, it's a start.

Regarding shields in this game...
You lift up your shield and magically, a force field pops up that protects you from all directions. I think it's safe to say a shielding mechanic while dual-wielding need not be realistic in terms of their physics. I do agree, however, that swinging around a 5* Plate Shield would look very strange.

Finally, regarding sword bulkiness...
"Look at the other 5* swords we use and compaire them, not that great of a weight difference and another thing to take into consideration is weight disrabution. The trokia lines have longer and heavier hil so the center of balance is not that far from the user as one would expect"

On the contrary, take a look at these pictures from the wiki:
Combuster
Khorovod

It looks to me that the 5* Brandishes in fact have a larger hilt-to-blade proportion, meaning they would be much easier to swing than Troika-style weapons. I'm not sure if that was your argument, but that's what makes sense here. As Hexzyle said, a Troika swing would greatly imbalance a knight, and that's why their swings are slower and heavier. As Hexzyle said, physics don't really seem to matter in this game, so the argument is largely invalid. Can we move on? This thread was meant to be a discussion of potential in-game mechanics, not real-life physical mechanics.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 10:17

#25

Hexzyle

@Schattentag

You just gave me a great idea. How about you equip your normal shield, and equipping the dual-wielded weapon changes your shields appearance to another, similar to how you get a new shield system for lockdown. Your shield would still be equipped, and would function like normal, but it would have a different appearance, such as a swiftstriker-esque sized device.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 11:18

#26

Hexzyle

As an idea for a dual-wielded

As an idea for a dual-wielded sword, how about knocker wrench-wands? We have a wrench wand, a thwack hammer, a Darkfang shield and a Warmaster Hammer, but not these yet!

Would it make sense that they were a three-strike normal/elemental style sword? Alternatively they could be a shock/freeze/fire reskin of the brandish line.
They do come in Poison and Normal variety too though.

Charge attack would deal large knockback and cause the appropriate effect, with perhaps a stun caused to yourself.
The weapon could just be 2 star, to match the other craftable gremlin weapons.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 11:54

#27

Schattentag

@Hexzyle

"and would function like normal"

I'm sure you meant something more like, "and would function according to its dual-wielding balanced equivalent". In other words, half of its health or whatever we decide would be a reasonable balancing mechanism.

I suppose this makes sense, but I'm not sure how it would work out, considering we don't even have costume shields yet.

The Knocker weapon sounds pretty good, since the actual enemies' attacks are based on the fact that they bring their two wands together or something. Perhaps the charge attack could actually emulate Knockers' attack - essentially a Brandish-style charge with a small chance of instead creating a Blast Bomb-style explosion around you, stunning you and maybe knocking you back a bit.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 13:03

#28

Hexzyle

@Schattentag

Yeah, you pretty much got the gist of what I was trying to say. Thanks for the shield reminder too.

"and would function according to its dual-wielding balanced equivalent"
Or on the dual wielded weapon inspection we could see a "Shield Health Reduction: High" or something of the sort.

I was thinking it was just a good way of making costume shields more viable, giving it a reason. And the knocker weapon I was just bringing up the idea of. I don't really know how it could work at the moment but I'm thinking.
I'll have to look at the knocker attack animation for ideas.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 21:59

#29

Trollingyou

The Knockers

They seem to take a small step forward before slamming both wands onto the ground at your location. They could use an animation similar to the Triglav/Sudaruska's charge animation, along with a boom like the warhammer. Seems possible enough to me.

I like your idea about shrinking the shield though, would have better cosmetics in the case of wielding 2 cutters with a VPS.

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 18:47

#30

Hexzyle

Mini-shield retains colour

Mini-shield retains colour scheme of the full size version? Or too bothersome to implement?

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 09:45

#31

Nixk

@Hexzyle "Nick has already

@Hexzyle "Nick has already stated that you cannot fight in T3 without a shield" I have run FSC with just myself and a friend, and I had no shield =/ (My name is nick too, does that count for a negate XD?)

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 10:08

#32

Evning

Hey i may just have the shielding solution

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/49005

What i suggested was not a system redesign for dual-wielding but it can offer the shield needed if dual-wielding.
Also the other part about projectiles negating projectiles may interest you guys.

Extract::

=============================================================================
NEW TYPES OF SHIELDS - 60% chance that it has been proposed before
=============================================================================

Our implementation of a shield is not really a physical shield, it is a shielding aura.
On that thought, our shields does not actually have to be actual shields.

What if our shields looked like wings?
The shield would attach without the slight skew that current shields have.
They could also be stowed folded to be aesthetically different from its in use animation.
When not in use in the clockworks, the shields would stay on our back, unfolded.
When in used, the shield would wrap around our knights.

The other animations, the shield aura and hand raising action, could remain unaffected.

The current wing accessories be changed a "costume" shields whenever a Wing Shield is equipped.
They might be scaled up to match the vision of a Wing shield.

I believe this is not very code intensive, but art intensive.

Thinking along that lines, Why stop at wings?
Capes could offer similar protection.
In the case of capes, they shielding hand would pull on the cape during shielding.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TL;DR
Wings and capes utilized as shields.

=============================================================================

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 01:39

#33

Hexzyle

RE:

@Nixk
FSC is the easiest T3 level of all of them, not to mention its the same every run. Try doing T3 shock/fiend/shock+fiend levels without a shield

@Evning
So, this is a visual fix rather than any sort of mechanical reworking? Sounds pretty good. I can think of a few other things that could work nicely here. Good idea

However I did read over your projectile cancellation idea and it didn't really appeal to me, sorry.

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 01:48

#34

Evning

@hexzyle

yes its a visual change that frees up the off-hand, which can tie in with dual wielding.
Projectile cancellation is a another kind of gunner shielding.

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 02:10

#35

Tsubasa-No-Me

Random stuff...

Ok, so I waltz around FSC and slip on some slime, or get tripped by a zombie... and find my self with a Trojans blade above me. What do I do? Bring good old swifty up, just for lulz. I get away with a minor scratch and the Trojan winds up dead.

Fact is, (And i'm not sure if everyone could do this) I just get out of the way. Or tank it if I can't get out of the way, that shield is only there for looks, for me... I can even walk around with those dreaded Shock-fiends after me, Its all a matter of timing and making sure you're safe. Heck, I can get away with the Fiend only trap room strata thingy. And I use a Suda. Or Iron Slug.

What I'm trying to say, is that I would be able to, and enjoy, Putting Swifty on my mantle like a prized dinner plate, and smashing everything with my 2-handed Suda. Its not impossible, and I refuse to go back to T1... ;P

_________________________________________________________________________

Also, due to having a 6 ft solid oak stick in my closet, I know how it is to actually swing something like a Suda one handed. It can be done as animated, but it is slowish and requires a LOT of core muscles. Not to mention a good, adaptable knowledge of momentum and gravity.

But dont get me wrong, I'm here to help, by showing you things that you said wouldn't work. But meh, whatever...

Not only am I famous, but I inspire Hipster...ness... Yeah.
~Tsu

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 06:37

#36

Hexzyle

@Tsubasa-No-Me

I've already stated I'm not bothered by the physical reality of swinging such a huge sword without falling over.

But you would use shield cancelling if you use Sudaaaaruska, right?

I found the lack of being able to shield cancel a horrendous drawback, but i do admit my latency is terrible and if I didn't approach this game with the immense skill I've aquired from this 1500ms+ latency, I would never survive in T3, even with full 5*.
Can any other sensible person who is T3 and has tried not playing with a shield vouch for the credibility of going without one?

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 06:59

#37

Evning

my shield doesn't work most of the time,

and i solo, once you are surrounded, just forget it.

I must add, i play guns, so i have no knockback weapons.
Also, i am pretty noob.

but other then that, i can afford to get hit, i just die pretty often.
in fact expect to get hit, things from 3 tiles away, that i thought i cleared hit me.
spikes activating behind me poke me.
greavers are the worst, they get me from half a screen away.
when faced with a group of them, shielding is just delaying the inevitable.

Sometimes i walk infront of energy orbs because i have no choice, i expect to walk past it with no damage and i get hit. its just not fun.
OOO got a ton for free CE from me, Thats the only way i can compensate for lag. spend spend spend.
one of these days i will take it out on my ISP.

Bottom line is, if you have enough HP left over, you can afford to get hit, once or twice before it gets dangerous.

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 07:09

#38

Hexzyle

@Evning

It's not your ISP, it's the fact that there are only two servers for Spiral knights and both of them are on the other side of the world.

Learn to compensate for the latency, play hard through it. Then once you get on a PC with good connection (or OOO installs servers in Australasia) you'll be an awesome player.

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 07:20

#39

Evning

Oh my isp is partly at fault.

Its a very common complain in my country =]
its not all their fault, but they contribute.
I will be switching ISP soon and i hope that will alleviate my situation slightly

I compensate when i can, if the condition is pretty clean i can handle it most times,
but when things get messy, things get real messy.

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 10:29

#40

Nixk

@Hexzyle Okay. I just did a

@Hexzyle Okay. I just did a fiend t3. No shield, solo. That good enough now?

Its not hard to be good without a shield, Just practice =/ It took me awhile to practice with out a shield, hundreds of jelly runs. But now im better WITHOUT my shield, even in tier 3. Why? Because I focus more on dodging now then shielding. If i have a shield, i will crutch it, and it can break if I get stuck. Without it im so conscious to every attack i get hit less then anyone,

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 10:29

#41

Nixk

@Hexzyle Okay. I just did a

@Hexzyle Okay. I just did a fiend t3. No shield, solo. That good enough now?

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 11:29

#42

Hexzyle

@Nixk

Shielding isn't the only thing shields are used for. Shields are used for shield-bumping, and shield-cancelling.

You'll also find that people who want to dual wield don't want to waste time doing hundreds of jelly runs just to be able to employ the weapons effectively.

You'll also find that there are a lot of people out there who don't play on connections with a latency less than 600ms and are forced to crutch on their shield regardless of how well they can "dodge" attacks that hit them even though they are 3 blocks away.

4 comments up:
"in fact expect to get hit, things from 3 tiles away, that i thought i cleared hit me.
spikes activating behind me poke me.
greavers are the worst, they get me from half a screen away."

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 19:57

#43

Nixk

I live in alaska with

I live in alaska with horrible lag. Dont talk about latency. Look all im saying is that its not impossible. And yes i know shields are used for other things. And I did hundred of jelly runs for other things too, but i used it as good practice. You're missing the entire point, its very stubborn. You said you can't have a thing replacing the shield because its impossible to do runs with out it. But thats a lie. Watch me play sometime you'll see theres ways around the shield. I may not have shield bumps, but I have a alternative to that. And I'm not always dodging EVERY attack. But I can. And If people want to dual wield but dont want to "waste time" essentially practicing it, then they shouldn't be suggesting something on forums because if theres anything new added to the game like this you'll have to practice other wise if you're already amazing at it when you pick it up when its an entire new mechanic to the game then OOO failed at making it a fair addition to the game.

You aren't looking at alternatives. If they really wanted to add this in replacement of a shield then they could have alternative advantages that are sacrificing a shield. Have you ever played vindictus, its like a more complicated version of this game, but similar? Two of the characters you can play in that game are relevant to this argument. One is like the characters we are now, one handed weapons with a shield. And the other is dual wielding. One handed character is easier at avoiding death, but slower attacks, so less DPS. The dual character can be harder to stay alive with but has the highest DPS so characters who are good with him are very good players and are respected. If they add dual wielding to this game OOO should really not over look the advantages and what they can do to avoid having over powered characters. Dual wield in this game is hard for one reason since all your attacks are limited to the sword or gun you currently have out. I posted a suggestion that would fix this entirely, its similar to what they have in other games as "skills" but designed for a spiral knights interface. Read that maybe.

What you're not understanding though is if you get the advantage of another sword you must sacrifice and losing a shield is a equal alternative for high dps.

"Or tank it if I can't get out of the way, that shield is only there for looks, for me..." As far as i see it, Nick didnt ask enough people, since both me and Tsu only have shields for looks XD

"* Any mechanism that removes the shield entirely, or makes it block only attacks from a certain direction.
Nick has already stated that you cannot fight in T3 without a shield. If you wish to argue, go back to T1 where you belong." You should remove this from "BAD" is what I'm saying and add it you the maybe pile and change nick's statement since is a hoax =/

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 23:45

#44

Birgus

Yeah, we're already dual-wielding weapons with shields!

I am not particularly fond of the idea of dual-wielding being a purely cosmetic option, but would like it if it pleased some people without inspiring complaint threads. I doubt that would be the case, though.

Regarding visual handling of the Shield, I kinda prefer just leaving it stowed on our backs like when we pick up door-opening tools since I have a fetish for easy solutions. Regarding gameplay...

If the shield remains useable and both weapons can attack independently & simultaneously, I'd want to just halve the DPS through some combination of slowing the animation and reducing the base damage- mostly slowing for heavy-hitting weapons and base damage reduction for fast-hitting ones so as to amplify rather than dilute their unique feels. I figure the remaining useful effects would just about counter-weigh the general awkwardness and need for a second attack key since the Shield is still useable.

If the shield remains useable and weapons cannot be used entirely independently, I'd want to make it a purely cosmetic feature by just leaving the weapons' performance untouched and introducing an extra cooldown, equal to the time it takes to switch when not dual-wielding, for only the one that is not the last used. That would make it a purely cosmetic feature, but I figure it would be well-enough disguised that the type to whine about nice cosmetic features like accessories wouldn't often figure out that it is such a feature.

I am in the "disabling the shield would not necessarily make dual-wielding utterly useless" camp, and would like to use the option often if it leaves both weapons functioning fully and not interfering with each other- two full-power guns, especially, would be well-worth stowing the shield in a lot of situations. So would being able to charge and set a Vortex bomb while readying something else, *cough*ShardBomb*cough* or whipping out TWO high-knockback swords when woefully misdeployed or victimised by derpy partymate kiting. It would also mean an extra attack key is not necessary for most players, since it would be logical for the "shield" key to activate the shield-hand weapon. O.o

In any of those cases, I think just having weapons and shields occupy the same equipment slots they now do would be ideal since the intent should be that the new options are fairly balanced, and the simplest solution ought be favoured unless there is a compelling reason to not favour it. I guess the simplest "default" control addition that would work for both "next/prev" users and direct slot selection users with minimal chance to mess with existing schemes might be an assignable "shift" key (like the autoaim button, for example) to make all weapon selection apply to the shield-hand weapon instead. You could have double-tapping that key toggle dual-wielding and/or just have the shield occupy a "slot 0" or "slot 5" that only exists for the left hand.

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 04:41

#45

Nixk

@Birgus Yeah I agree. I think

@Birgus Yeah I agree. I think having a shield and also having a dual wield would be unbalanced, and I agree that, "disabling the shield would not necessarily make dual-wielding utterly useless" because obviously people already don't always use their shield, like tsu and I, and also you'll be getting an advantage from another weapon. If it was a matter of knock back, people aren't realizing if your DPS is up that means your power hit (3rd hit on brandish series, ect) will come a lot faster making it really easy to knock back enemies sine you cant shield bash.

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 07:37

#46

Trollingyou

@Not having a shield idea

I have a few concerns with not having a shield.

1. (not a big one) Newer players learning experiences. While most newer players don't make use of it anyway due to being in T1, they start learning in T2 when things get harder. It's like the game introduces the shielding aspect of play, and is a big part of it, especially in T3.

2. Frames per second lag. This is not latency, this is what happens when you have a low end computer and the game runs at <15 frames per second while using low graphics settings. try avoiding and attacking properly in this environment. The shield helps massively in this situation.

3. Lockdown. Dual wield GF, Flourish lines, and Polaris. I rest my case.

4. Guns in general. I'm a gunner, and I can immediately see that implementing it this way would make the game way, way to easy for gunners. We rarely get hit as it is, why give us a massive bonus in damage, even if it is at the cost of the shield? Nothing would ever touch me, save Devilites maybe, because they would quickly die before they get close to me. Dual wield Polaris, Supernova, and Valiance would be crazy, because those three push mobs away from you.

5. If the damage bonus is not that high, it will not be worth it. If it is too high, it will be OP. The devs will have to find that fine line in balance, which is extra work.

Point is, it would change the game's mechanics too much. Change itself is not a bad thing, but too much change at once is bad. That idea where the shield is on your back is a rather good idea, it could be taken off whenever the knight shields and placed back on your back once the knight stops shielding. Also, Nick was right with you cannot run T3 without a shield. Unequip your shield and go to FSC without one entirely. Tell me how it went.

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 07:49

#47

Nixk

@trollingyou 1) Then they

@trollingyou 1) Then they shouldnt use it till they learn the game

2) I have horrible latency.. And i can play with no shield. If you cant play with it like that then either you don't and stick with what you can, or practice

3) Obviously GF wouldnt be a dual wield based off its attack mechanics. And flourish similar, or it would be reduced. And I also doubt if Duals wielding is added, guns will either not be included or also just largely reduced in some sort of area. (reload time, ect)

4) As i Just said.

5) It won't be a damage bonus, more of a speed bonus, which calls to DPS and in this manner it will probably be just equal IF you are good with the weapons.

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 17:22

#48

Trollingyou

@Nixk

1. If dual wielding is implemented the way you suggested, then people will be using it early game. You cannot control others actions.

2. I was not talking about latency in an internet connection sense, I was talking about frames per second. Imagine SK playing like a slideshow.

3. If dual wielding is added, it should be available to all weapons, not just one type.

4. See last paragraph

5. If you hit with 2 brandishes instead of one, it's like dealing almost twice the damage you normally do, assuming both do their 6 hits in the same time it takes one to do 3 hits. A maximum damage bonus is only around 42% damage increase according to the wiki. This would make people tear through bosses and mobs like butter, and would require balancing.

Maybe I'm interpreting you idea wrong, if so elaborate. But from the sounds of it you want to be able to replace the shield with a weapon, and have a left hand/right hand sort of thing. This will not work, it'll either make peoples damage over the top or they will fail miserably because they have no shield and got frozen in place. If you saw the ideas we had above, you would see that you'd effectively deal 20% more damage, which is not a massive increase, at the cost of half your shields total health, meaning it will break twice as fast. Even if you never get hit, you are not dealing obscene amounts of damage. It rewards players who can master it, but it doesn't give too much of a reward.

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 21:50

#49

Nixk

1) Players are expected to be

1) Players are expected to be good with the weapons they choose. Other games, like vindictus, have this and at first its hard but worth it.

2) Yes.. i know what it's like. Thats not an issue with the game. Otherwise why would they ever add new stuff if latency was such a huge problem?

3) No it would not. That is a bad idea. Think of the game with everyone dualing GF and DA even though they only swing twice and dont fit dual mechanics? In swords, dualing usually is a faster weapon with low damage, made up for by dps.

5) You're missing my point entirely here. They wouldn't have the current weapons as duals in all exact. It wouldn't be 6 hits in the time of 3, maybe in the time of 4. And yes, thats the point of dualing. LARGE DPS, at the cost of DEFENSE. No shield, while moving fast and attacking makes dodging hard since you will either have to interupt your combo, or hope to not bet hit during the wait time.

4) Guns will be the most difficult part because of the power. (Honestly I think dual would only be implementable for swords)

On your last statements, "This will not work, it'll either make peoples damage over the top or they will fail miserably because they have no shield and got frozen in place"

You look at that wrong, think of it more, that, "With duals people will have a higher amount of DPS while lacking a sufficient way to block (if theres some blacking at all) that will leave them vulnerable if they fail to properly deliver their attack combos"

"...fail miserably because they have no shield and got frozen in place" to reiterate myself, again. MANY people, like myself and tsu( i think tsu said that shields are just for appeal) can play, lack of shield. I actually play much better with out my shield because its less distracting, since other MMO games like this one I played characters no shield (Heavy two hand sword, or dual wield). You don't have to practice a lot to be good at it. Don't say "people shouldn't have to practice" That's basically the same as saying people should just get ce for free and that magical hippos should fly down and sprinkle crown all over the happy folk of the haven for playing a game thats so easy.. Lol sorry, wanted to write that =p But seriously, the game isn't meant to be extremely easy all the time, other wise it wouldnt be much of a game with no challenge. And also. Remember when you first started playing, one weapon was easy to use of the three proto items you get. For me sword was the easiest, and even then I didnt use my shield. Guns were pretty easy too. But bombs were another world to me at first. Its not strange to have weapons that are harder then others. Plus for some people it will probably be easier.

I'm not saying this was my idea. I think almost everyone missed what I said. I was simply trying to explain having no shield isn't impossiple AS STATED in the first post. It's a lie to say 'you cannot do t3 without a shield" since I repeatedly do it. I've taken people with me on jelly king runs and challanged them to try no shield, by the end they were doing just as good as they were with a shield.

"It rewards players who can master it, but it doesn't give too much of a reward." The point of the game isn't to add a new item that any one can use and be a master right away with no struggle. Thats crazy, and makes the game way to easy. Most new players struggle at playing t the start anyway, yet I know that if these were added and a player started with DUAL wielding that they would learn that as fast as a normal player would with a sword and a shield. This IS NOT a new idea. Other games that play basically the exact way these characters attack HAVE done it SUCCESSFULLY.

Most of the struggle OOO would have is making sure speed and DPS with the cost of a shield balance that of the rest a shield and a weapon.

I honestly think that the shield should be gone if dual wielding, but have a form of blocking. In some games characters cross their swords for a last minuet chance. I think it should be an extremely weak block though. Like it wouldn't really protect you from things like trojan hits. But can at least block one or mayyyybe two bullets from a turret puppy. How bout, you do some research on other games with dual wielding swords and try and see this from my point of view.

Mon, 04/02/2012 - 23:34

#50

Trollingyou

1. You do not seem to get my

1. You do not seem to get my point. What do most players do when they first start playing? Normally, they use the sword since it is easy to use and rambo into enemies to kill them. If they got a hold of dual wielding, they would be encouraged to do this more, due to the supposed vast increase in DPS. It would not be hard to use at all, since most don't use the shield much to begin with at first anyway.

2. Most new stuff they add are able to be operated in a system that meets the system requirements. Why add something that will considerably raise the system requirements?

3. If dual wielding was limited to certain weapons, then why have it at all? You could just as easily make a single handed weapon that does the same thing (Like the cutter lines).

4. Guns. One reason why the damage increase should not be too high.

5. I know dual wielding is supposed to be higher damage than single wielding, and is at the cost of defense. The problem is, with the games current balance in player damage/mob health would be ruined if dual wield weapons did too much damage. I can already slaughter Jelly King by myself in 25-30 seconds while in a 3 man party using the Sentenza. Imagine what a dual wield Acheron would do to him. This is why the damage bonus cannot be too high, everything, including bosses, will be dead before they get a chance to do anything.

I never said things should be easy, or they should never have to practice. I don't know where you got that from. I never said people should be able to master it right away. I just said that those who master it would be rewarded with more damage, but would not go into god-mode because of it.

Also, I don't use my shield just for myself. I also use to to block an otherwise fatal blow to a partner or bump part of a crowd away while their shield is down. The shield has more uses than just for self protection, you can save others with it too. Also, try running FSC or SL with no shield equipped whatsoever and see how it goes.

In my first post here I originally suggested that the shield only halves damage as opposed to negate it while dual wielding. The reason why we came to the conclusion that it was not the best of ideas was because taking hits are far more punishing in this game than most MMOs. Most other games that I have played that had dual wielding did not have the same damage health system, and you could take far more than 5 hits and live. They also made it so dual wielding had high SINGLE target damage or had great combo/pvp abilities. They also would slightly lower the damage of each strike so a single hit from a single weapon was still stronger. Not to mention they did not have the lowest defense of what happened to be far more than 3 classes which could be leveled to gain stats, which includes defense. Also, there was no shield mechanic like SK has. If dual wielding of any sort would be introduced into SK, it would have to be made for SK, not some other game.

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Reasonable Discussion on Dual-Wielding Mechanics (This isn't just an "i want 2 sords kthnxbye" thread)