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Questions about Argent Peacemaker/Sentenza

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Sáb, 05/19/2012 - 14:30
Imagen de Sol-Xii
Sol-Xii

Sol here, with a question concerning AP/Sentenza.

Being my favourite weapons, I always find an excuse to wield AP everywhere. But deep in my heart, I know that Nova Driver will outperform it in raw damage. So, to force myself to continue using it, I have a few questions.
(Please be specific about whether you are answering for AP or Sent.)

How viable would they be in a Gunslinger, Bombardier, or Swordsman loadout?

How viable are they as sidearms or main damage dealers?

When do they outperform any other weapons? (Please give examples of when they will)

Where is the Charge attack more useful than spamming the normal shots?

Thanks for answering everyone!

Sáb, 05/19/2012 - 14:55
#1
Imagen de Dirty-Harry
Dirty-Harry
Antigua benefits

In a Gunslinger loadout they are pretty limited in use, both are weapons you use if you really want to avoid mobs because of their fast projectiles, fire rate and large clip size while maintaining mobility. But that's pretty much the only saving grace for gunners. For Bombers and Swordsmen, both give an excellent fall back use on when you're low on health and want to stay offensive. Also, because of their long range capabilities they both can be used for turrets (although a polaris will be a better turret destroyer than the AP).

They are viable as sidearms, Sentenza specifically good for sniping out gremlin menders from long range, as main damage dealers there are still decent, but their main benefit is how safe you can be while using it.

The AP out performs the Alchemer series by having a longer range and larger clip, allowing for easier use when you don't want to get into the heat of battle. Like I said earlier, the Sentenza can be useful for taking out menders in arenas, where you need a quick bullet with long range to take them out safely.

The charge attacks for both are very limited in use, since you're standing still for such a long time you're pretty much open to any thing. I'd only use it in long hallways of mobs that are slow (AP -> Zombies, Sent. -> Jellies) and you're out of range from their long range attacks. The pushback from the final bullet will usually save you while you recover.

Sáb, 05/19/2012 - 15:45
#2
Imagen de Toastnaut
Toastnaut
I'll try to answer all of

I'll try to answer all of your questions as succinctly as I can, since you're asking for a lot of information.

-----

How viable would they be in a Gunslinger, Bombardier, or Swordsman loadout?

Gunslinger: Very Viable. They have excellent range, put out lots of shots quickly, and don't sacrifice mobility. They aren't often the fastest way to kill things (alchemers do more damage in less time, even though a full set of 6 antigua line shots can easily do more than an alchemer can do in 2) but because of their range and speed, sometimes CAN do more damage faster than other options.
When I'm using only guns, I most often take either AP or Sent. Normally using three weapons, if they're all guns at any given time, one of them is almost ALWAYS equipped. Sentenza is also my shadow gun of choice. It far outshines the biohazard and shadow driver.
I often swap between AP and Nova Driver depending on the level.
If I'm gunning in any level and don't feel like using swords or bombs, most often I'll have Sentenza, Nova Driver, and a Blight Needle. If I'm facing undead I will probably take AP over the Nova Driver or take both.

Bombardier: Very Limited. They can give you a good way to put some damage onto things as you retreat or take out turrets from a distance, but nothing you (normally) can't do better with bombs or swords. If you already have Bomb CTR from armour, you're better off with another bomb. If you need a non-bomb backup, a sword will serve you better than a gun 90% of the time. Something less specialized would be better if you HAD to have a gun as a bomber.

Swordsman: Viable. Equipped for the right level, they're great sidearms. Being quick and long range, they're awesome for finishing off that lone gremlin that's limping off, or picking off a turret from a distance, or even just flipping squitches.

-----

How viable are they as sidearms or main damage dealers?

Kind of ties in to parts of the first question, so not much more to say here... Short answer: Very viable for both. When I go full gunner in FSC, I am using my AP more than anything else because of the range and mobility it allows (when I do this, I take AP, Nova Driver, and a poison needle.) In Deconstruction Zones same thing with sentenza. They're extremely good against clumped up enemies because the shots tend to hit multiple enemies if they're close together.
In candlestick keep, I use AP about equally with a sword, and it's my sidearm in graveyards, in both of these cases because of how effectively it breaks blocks and crystals quickly while being very good against undead. (MAX with deadshot set with no need for trinkets.)
As a sidearm, see above. :)

-----

When do they outperform any other weapons? (Please give examples of when they will)

Mainly, they're compared to Alchemers because they're the most similar in terms of what type of damage options are available.
In terms of overall performance, the elemental alchemers and AP are basically equal. They both do very similar damage and though are useful for different reasons, about equally so.
AP is better for range and mobility (depending how you use it,) and Drivers can do more damage more quickly (especially using the charge to "snipe" things.) You'll see people say on the forum that for "single target damage" the AP will outperform an alchemer, technically speaking this is true, but in practice you are less often facing a single target.
Based on the math of damage per shot times shots per reload, the antigua line beats alchemers, however it's important to remember that by the time you've fired 6 shots from an antigua, you have already reloaded an alchemer or are firing a second volley.
Even against one target, if you are prepared before you attack, the alchemer charge will do more damage VERY quickly, than AP/Sent can. This puts them about equally for that too, in practice.

Regarding Sentenza, it far outperforms other shadow guns in general, in particular for fighting Gremlins. The projectiles and firing speed make it easy to beat their dodging, unlike the shadow alchemers. It is a much better offensive option than biohazard as well if you are just concerned with ending a fight quickly.
If you are fighting slimes, the same arguments apply as the elemental discussion.

In a non-ideal situation, the AP/Sentenza won't perform as well against neutral targets, though. Alchemers, pulsars, or other guns with higher per-shot damage will generally be a more effective solution if you are doing neutral damage (for example Nova Driver is pretty good against slimes, but AP is just ok.)
It's not that it does that much less damage, but it is tedious to shoot at beasts with sentenza, or fiends with AP, most of the time (not only because they dodge) or even Sentenza for constructs.

-----

Where is the Charge attack more useful than spamming the normal shots?

When you have space to stand still firing without much danger of getting hit, it's almost always more useful. It's generally not worth your time against one target, unless it has a lot of health (such as a giant lichen, lumbers, or even the Royal Jelly;) against a group, it can do MASSIVE damage in a large area.
In particular in FSC, some rooms specifically allow you to take advantage of this, giving you lots of space and straight lines to send a giant hawk over a group of zombies. When zombies are focused on your teammates or frozen in ice, it is a good opportunity to fire the charge through a large group since you are relatively safe then and will get very, very many hits.
(If you want numbers, at depth 22 the normal attacks will do 114 damage times six shots and hit generally at most 12 times if you are good. The charge will do 114 damage times 5 shots, then a large, wide shot that does 234 damage and will hit even just one target normally at least 2-3 times. Against a group it will likely hit EACH target 2-3 times in a larger area than most bombs.)

It will also stagger (knock down) gremlins fairly reliably. If you have a group of gremlins, and lots of space between you and them, the charge can very often take out a few of them before they get to you, and knock the rest onto their butts. In deconstruction zones, you can often use the barriers that block movement but not projectiles to do lots of damage to a group when they can't reach you with the charge, rather than picking them off one or two at a time with the normal attack.

In some circumstances, it's quite good for turrets too. If a turret hasn't seen you, you can often unleash a charge from behind it at a good distance and kill it before it turns around all the way. The initial 5 shots will fire faster than you can normally, and the last one will deal huge damage and hit a few times.
Often, it's a good idea to fire the charge off ignoring whether the first 5 shots will even hit, just for the 6th, larger shot.

Hopefully that is of some help to you.

Sáb, 05/19/2012 - 16:44
#3
Atacii
Please use the search

Please use the search function.

Antiguas are easy to use. When I first started fsc, I loved my AP. Now I only use it in ld...sometimes. There are better guns.

Sáb, 05/19/2012 - 18:37
#4
Imagen de Doctorspacebar
Doctorspacebar
SUNSHAAAAAAAAARDS

Here's an idea: AP or Sent Charge through a Vortex might just be really, really awesome.

THIS HAS BEEN ANOTHER BOMB-RELATED POST BY DOCTORSPACEBAR

Sáb, 05/19/2012 - 19:21
#5
Imagen de Jaroche
Jaroche
Antigua line is nice to break

Antigua line is nice to break boxes, hit switches or interrupt enemies (because of its range and great fire rate)... for killing, not so much; I prefer alchemers for that. The charge is near worthless except for puppies (argent) and polyps (sentenza).

Sáb, 05/19/2012 - 19:32
#6
Imagen de Toastnaut
Toastnaut
@spacebar

Yes, you are correct. The tightly packed enemies guarantee very, very many hits and lots of damage.

Even solo, I have used that combination without even charging my AP/Sent. just for the (many) extra hits you get.

@Jaroche: Have you upgraded an antigua to 4* or higher? They're very limited at 3*, and nowhere near potential at 4*. If you're finding yours isn't good for killing things or the charge worthless... you are probably doing it wrong.

Sáb, 05/19/2012 - 22:33
#7
Imagen de Jaroche
Jaroche
lol yeah i have both at 5*

lol yeah i have both at 5* (by "antigua" i meant all the line, 3* - 5-).

I guess, I don't like hitting 10 times my mouse to kill something, easier to charge an alchemer (magma, cryo, storm).

Sáb, 05/19/2012 - 23:24
#8
Imagen de Sypsy
Sypsy
Charge attack is great for

Charge attack is great for interrupting attacks.
I use the AP to interrupt the rocket turret in the rocket room on D25 of FSC. But I have also found uses for it when using it for fun, like against lumbers.

AP works well enough for killing, though it is true you usually have to empty a full 6 shots to get a kill. Clearing a whole level with AP only would be a bit of a pain due to its mostly single target damage.

Dom, 05/20/2012 - 01:54
#9
Imagen de Lukehandkooler
Lukehandkooler
@Thread

Here's an idea: AP or Sent Charge through a Vortex might just be really, really awesome.

This is true, in the middle room of RJP with the statues on either side once upon a time, someone dropped a Graviton on one of the jelly spawns as another knight pressed the button and in a party of 4 with Sent charge I killed the entire spawn before the graviton effect even expired.

The vortex spins stuff so fast that it can get hit by the same dark phoenix 2-3 times and confines everything so well that each of the 5 leadup shots to the phoenix will connect with just about everything spinning in the vortex. Its pretty savage.

Edit- Toastnaut beat me to it.

~Luke

Dom, 05/20/2012 - 18:14
#10
Imagen de Noogard
Noogard
I also have a question...!

Does the Sentenza have better range than the Blackhawk? I'm constantly getting annoyed at the Blackhawk for how short the range of the regular attack is compared to my Polaris, Biohazard, and Blight Needle. I'm also not sure if I even want to get the Sentenza for my current set. My Biohazard has a slime low UV and easily outdoes my Blackhawk against slimes plus it seems to for anything normal to shadow and could easily outdo it with gremlins if it weren't for their dodge. Currently for my gunner set I'm using a Perfect Mask of Seerus with a Shadowsun Slicker and have been trying out the Swiftstrike Buckler.

And for the sake of asking it here, I'd like to know how much of a damage bonus the Plague Needle would require to OSK a trojan.

Dom, 05/20/2012 - 19:16
#11
Imagen de Bopp
Bopp
don't know, but

"Does the Sentenza have better range than the Blackhawk?"

I don't know, but the last time I checked, Sentenza had a range of about 7.6 tiles (as measured in the ATH, by shooting at an explosive block), while Argent had a range of 8.2 tiles. Maybe you can test your Blackhawk and compare.

"And for the sake of asking it here, I'd like to know how much of a damage bonus the Plague Needle would require to OSK a trojan."

In a party of how many people? (I don't know the answer, but you'll have to say, before you can get an answer. A Blitz Needle can OSK a trojan in a party of one or two, I think.)

Dom, 05/20/2012 - 19:40
#12
Imagen de Noogard
Noogard
Ah, thanks.

Using my front foot as 0, the Blackhawk seems to be a tiny bit above 7 tiles which still feels short to me compared to the Biohazard and Blight Needle which go a bit over 8 along with the Polaris that goes 9 due to the explosion. Other than specifically for gremlins, it just doesn't seem like an extremely useful weapon.

I guess I mean in a full party but I would like to know other sizes as well. If it's too high for me to get which is most likely, I'll probably just use my current method of taking them down. That's not too much trouble as using a Shiver followed by a charge shot and a regular attack is enough to take down a trojan with my Blight Needle.

Dom, 05/20/2012 - 20:34
#13
Imagen de Jaroche
Jaroche
Yes, for some reason the

Yes, for some reason the Blackhawk has less range than silversix/argent/sentenza, it has been reported in the past. As far I can tell Sentenza and Argent have the same range, about 8.5 tiles.

Dom, 05/20/2012 - 20:22
#14
Imagen de Noogard
Noogard
!!!

If I can get any confirmation on that then the Sentenza will seem a bit nicer to get.

Dom, 05/20/2012 - 20:56
#15
Imagen de Bopp
Bopp
partial confirmation

I just reran some tests. It now appears that Argent and Sentenza have exactly the same range. So maybe there has been a change, since my ancient data were collected, or I just messed up. So this partially verifies what others have said. Cheers.

Dom, 05/20/2012 - 21:35
#16
Imagen de Dirty-Harry
Dirty-Harry
It's been tested.

It's been tested many times, the link Jaroche posted is still correct in it's data. They just overlooked the Blackhawk when making the antiguas, but the Sentenza has the range of all the others.

Dom, 05/20/2012 - 22:18
#17
Imagen de Toastnaut
Toastnaut
Not to worry...

Yeah the Blackhawk has frustratingly bad range, but when you upgrade, you will be happy. :)

Lun, 05/21/2012 - 04:11
#18
Imagen de Veacon
Veacon
Sentenza range +++?

Oh thank goodness, my blackhawk has been shoved into a corner somewhere.
With regards to usage of blackhawk in various areas, I find its damage quite underwhelming and its range pitiful especially when I have to snipe menders in the centre of an arena and it just won't connect, and even when it does, it takes forever to kill them. This is especially the case for T3.
In addition, I do think that the 4* antigua's charge attacks are pretty underwhelming and almost useless since they do pitiful damage and the last big bullet is hardly worth mentioning, since its hitbox is puny.
While my blackhawk is 4*, I generally favour the biohazard over the blackhawk in RJP due to greater damage and poison and general Michael Bay-ness.
Not to mention that you're grounded in the whole period of time, leaving you susceptible to attacks.

Good to hear that the sentenza is much better.

@Noogard
After my very long and lengthy suggestion post about how the plague needle (and blight) were crap relative to the blitz, the Devs (kind of) mitigated this issue with the overall gun damage boost. The plague needle's damage on FSC trojans jumped about 50%, from barely 120 a needle to now easily 190-200 a needle, and even more, factoring poison in. My current needle, which has a low damage bonus from a trinket can 100% OSK a Trojan in a 3 man party, but not a 4 man. I predict with max (or even less) damage bonus, OSKing will not be a problem. I am not particularly sure about blight though, but Toastnaut should have numbers with his VH fiend one.

PS Plague needle now does almost double what it used to on Vana.

Lun, 05/21/2012 - 05:47
#19
Imagen de Lukehandkooler
Lukehandkooler
@ Veacon

PS Plague needle now does almost double what it used to on Vana.

(blitz needle, Vana)
Pre-patch: 218 x 15 = 3,270
Post-patch: 289 x 15 = 4,335
Difference: 1,065 or 32%

Mask phase:
Pre-patch: 149 x 15 = 2,235
Post-patch: 239 x 15 = 3,585
Difference: 1,350 or 60%
*courtesy of Sypsy

It's because of how damage calculation works. The resistance reduces by exact number, not by percentage
On mask phase, it has some resistance.
*Courtesy of Poopsie

Are you suggesting the plague needle received a stealth buff that went above and beyond the blanket buffs or maby looking at numbers on the mask phase?

~Luke

Lun, 05/21/2012 - 12:01
#20
Imagen de Toastnaut
Toastnaut
Kind off topic

I'll weigh in here about the Blight since it's been brought up. :P

Yup, Blight needle even at 4* is super reliable with fiend ultra (High UV and Med trinket) for taking down Trojans now.
It actually will take them down in a three player party in one charge up to the second last level (depth 26) and ALMOST is enough at 27. I suspect once it's 5* it will be strong enough. I'll see with 4 players when I get a chance.

Lun, 05/21/2012 - 13:44
#21
Imagen de Fradow
Fradow
As someone who got into an

As someone who got into an argument about Plague Needle effectivness before the patch, I'm very interested in figures. Unfortunately, I don't have one to test myself. Could someone get the figure with no DMG or DMG Med (I can't really go over with my setup), with and without poison, on Vana body (that's my reference point) ?

I'll double check the same with Blitz Needle.

Lun, 05/21/2012 - 21:54
#22
Imagen de Toastnaut
Toastnaut
I can with Blight. I'm not

I can with Blight. I'm not upgrading until CE goes down a bit at the next promo perhaps. :P

As far as "effectiveness with/withoug poison" is concerned, you will never make up the difference in damage solo. Where you make up for it is the extra damage done by teammates from the poison. If you are running a 4-man shiver/blitz group, one shiver, one plague, and two blitz, you should definitely be doing more damage with that than three blitz. Keyword there is "should" though...

Lun, 05/21/2012 - 22:17
#23
Imagen de Fradow
Fradow
@Toastnaut Yup, "should",

@Toastnaut Yup, "should", that's why I want to confirm with numbers. Because before the patch, it was not the case unless you had 3 Blitz + 1 Plague. So in any non-speedrun Vana, it was not worth it. But that may change if Plague received a stealth buff.

Mar, 05/22/2012 - 02:02
#24
Imagen de Veacon
Veacon
I doubt the plague received a

I doubt the plague received a stealth buff. I can get the numbers but I'll need a bit of time.

Also we should create another thread, I think OP must be pretty angry as to how far we have deviated off topic :x

Mar, 05/22/2012 - 08:51
#25
Imagen de Wezz
Wezz
right now I am waiting until

right now I am waiting until they make a piercing upgrade to the antigua, I already have too much elemental guns (prisma driver and Kilowatt pulsar), compared to my other guns, and sentenza isn't good against vanaduke

Mar, 05/22/2012 - 12:02
#26
Imagen de Toastnaut
Toastnaut
No poison needle buff

I've already finished collecting new damage data for the Blight, just not against vana.
I can confirm it got the same buff that all of the other guns got. It's about 10% more damage on the normal attack and 30-50% more damage on the charge compared to the old damage it did.
If my 30-50% figure confuses anyone, I can make another thread explaining what seems to have happened, and why this IS NOT contrary to what was in the patch notes, even though it said 20%. Anyhow, I'll update when I have my Plague Needle (reads: after CE dips a bit) and confirm for that one too.

LOL Veacon is right too. Even though OP got his answer, I wouldn't blame him for being frustrated that his thread got jacked.

Mar, 05/22/2012 - 15:50
#27
Imagen de Sol-Xii
Sol-Xii
Those pesky Devilites.

Sigh.

Carry on.

Thanks for the answers, though.

Vie, 06/08/2012 - 17:34
#28
Imagen de Noogard
Noogard
Tested it few minutes ago.

On Vana, my Plague Needle (with Damage Med due to Shadowsun Slicker) got 174 per shot with charge on Vana while he was poisoned. Meh, at least it makes him green.

With a VH damage bonus I am able to take down Trojans with a single charge in a full party.

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