Spiral Knights - LD, Whats a strikers weakness??

LD, Whats a strikers weakness??

60 replies [Last post]

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 07:32

#51

Canine-Vladmir

Am I the only one who laughed when i read Darkbrady's comment, " I can tell you now, it's more common than you'd think if you never hazed."?

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 07:53

#52

Darkbrady

Have to agree with Vokster.

Have to agree with Vokster. Fact is that even a broken booster doesn't leave a striker nearly as defenceless as a recon with no cloak or guardian with no shield. I understand that's less to do with the class bonuses and more about weapon choices, but it also comes down to the class bonuses they get that allow optimal loadouts and heart trinky abuse.

@Dragneel:
This is what I wanted you to say.....

I'm aware that when they switch sets then it changes their entire loadout and strengths too (although they can simply replace heart trinkies for damage trinkies; ultimately they may not actually lose that much) but my point was just that "spamming hazes" isn't enough in its own right. You can have a Skolver coming from one side and a Quicksilver from the other. Spam VT and Shiver in hopes to stop them both? What if one of them has double immunity? What if a third shows up? What if they pull out trollaris?

Now, I generally just cycle through my four hazes and guarantee that anyone who rushes in for a kamikaze or otherwise gets landed with 2/3 statuses, but it does little to actually keep me alive in the end. Strikers are notoriously effective at taking out bombers, especially with UVs, and the fact is that being a striker bomber as well helps immensely, as that boost can let you jump around your hazes unpredictably, making it even harder for them to land a cheap hit in with their silly AP or w/e.

@Canine:
I'm honestly not sure if you're laughin' at me or not, there. I reckon I made a valid point ;-;...

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 12:53

#53

Severage

...

@Dragneel:

I'm not sure that removing heart trinkets would cure all ills. I can just imagine people who recently got their pentas complaining all over the forums. They would, however, make the use of trinkets unnecessary to be competitive. At present, you simply can not be as competitive as anyone else, no matter how good you are, without heart trinkets. Nobody can avoid 100% of attacks 100% of the time. You waste a lot more time running to your base and healing, or playing too tentatively to be as effective as usual.

So yes, though I don't use them, I am of the mindset that you need them if you're ever trying to be truly competitive with other Strikers. Not all Strikers of course, but any average or pro Striker doesn't haven't a problem smacking you once or twice and you dying (Don't even get me started with Hammer + AA spam).

In contrast, this is not the only thing that makes Strikers unbalanced. Try this:

Strikers heal faster than Guardians due to the rate they can boost to base. Have you ever really waited half an hour to get healed by a shield?
Strikers' equipment is more effective. It cannot be destroyed by your enemy, you have to use it yourself.
Strikers cap faster than any class due to their move speed.
Strikers of equal skill to any other class will always have more damage than their peers of Guardians and Recons; depending on your play style you may sacrifice caps or defends for this, but that only happens if you're over-aggressive.
Strikers can hunt down wounded opponents. No other class can unless the person is trapped or for whatever reason takes the long way to his base.

Guardians (Must have pentas) can act as a serious tank from other classes, but their shield lasts like 1/10 of their HP. If you have more than 1 Striker vs a Guardian, it's easy for the Guardian to be overwhelmed, since he cannot maneuver or run.

Recons only advantage is they can back-cap unlike any other class. This usually helps a team re-take ground quickly. Coincidentally, back-capping is more effective if you have more Strikers.

And that's why, though I don't use trinkets, I do better as a Striker than any other class.

@Darkbrady:

I'm sorry I've got to disagree with you. A striker without his boost is exactly the same as a recon without his cloak or a guardian without his shield, EXCEPT for the fact that a Striker has less HP than either of the other classes (assuming they all do or don't have trinks).

The only thing to be cautious of is how long they've been out of boost, since it recharges all at once. It's not like they can't attack at all, but without boost, a Striker's attacks are really predictable. If you're a Striker yourself, your movement or looping around them to attack (Unless they have godly ASI) will protect you from their attempts.

It's all relative though. If they have godly ASI, have been out of boost for an extended period of time (About to recover), or have back-up, you shouldn't just run into their face swinging.

~Sev

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 13:31

#54

Dendios

What do you prefer Sev

@Severage

Do you prefer that OOO buffs Guardians and Recons ( May specify later ) and nerf Strikers ? Or nerf Strikers only ? Or buff Guardians and Recons only ?
I actually prefer buffing Guardians and Recons only . And as I said , I might put some suggestions later like :

Increasing the rate of healing of the Guardian's shield
Reducing the cooldown of the Recon's cloak

These are for example

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 14:02

#55

Yirumi

geez

The striker is a bit less frightening when their boost runs out, but there are many ways to counter people that try to take advantage of that (i.e. using guns, timing sword swings, or dodging without the booster). I've seen people try to chase Nethrom when he's low on boost only to die by his polaris/iron slug. As for the lower health, every class dies with a few hits. Just look for each player's individual tendencies in movement and counter accordingly. If you want to annoy them though.... >:) polaris, guns in general, vortex bombs, and hammers are great for that.

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 17:21

#56

Tenkii

reconnnnn

lol, this thread brings back memories.

This was from like, before I really stepped up my recon.
Striker's low health is perfect food for recon, due to its natural ability to get first hit.

Anyway, I have some issues with some of the recent stuff that's being said.

Severage:
@trinkets
I do not use heart trinkets. I have never invested and never feel the need for it. I also never play striker. I play recon.

Heart trinkets are unrightfully worshipped because strikers use them. It makes up for strikers' weakness : low health.
Other classes have enough health but less offensive bonuses, so their trinkets should be more offensive, if anything.

This is a lengthy idea, but in short:
Recon can do with gun damage, sword damage, or sword speed. Guardian can do with sword speed, sword damage, or bomb CTR.

@Recon usefulness:
Recons get first hit. They aren't simply fodder to send back-capping, though they are useful for that as well.

@damage
As a recon, I realize I get less damage when I have a skilled striker on my team, and it's precisely because they get in the fray earlier than I do, and that's all. The fodder that will die will die, regardless of who they run into.

Darkbrady:
Fact is that even a broken booster doesn't leave a striker nearly as defenceless as a recon with no cloak or guardian with no shield. I understand that's less to do with the class bonuses and more about weapon choices, but it also comes down to the class bonuses they get that allow optimal loadouts and heart trinky abuse.

Recon can actually do better shieldless than the other classes. Know why? Gun ASI bonus. The issue with having no shield is that you can't cancel your attack, and for swords, this means complete vulnerability after a miss. For guns, however, this is a different story:

- Unlike swords, many gun lines can move (and recently I've realized the importance of this: ) and aim while moving. That's every gun line except the autogun and terrible magnus lines.
- Gunning playstyle, drawing from old-school PVE gunning, is shoot-pause-shoot. This requires no shield.
- Guns have higher range than swords (obvious, isn't it?), meaning you can still hit first and stall for your shield if you know how/where to aim. ASI helps for this, and it also allows for faster 2-weapon switching when you don't have shield.

Also, consider vortex as an anti-striker bomb - specifically electron vortex. Only guardian is immune to it, you can pellet them to death while they're in its pull, and if it shocks, your kill is given.

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 17:22

#57

Tenkii

double post

whoops, double post.

I'll take this time to laugh @ my old post about mitezuss running into vortex 90% of the time.

He's gotten wiser about it, but it still gives him bad memories ;>

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 18:51

#58

Darkbrady

@Severage/Seiran:I did say

@Severage/Seiran:

I did say that a boostless striker being more effective is down to their bonuses (and thusly, oftentime their choice of weapons) because a striker will likely be one with high damage/asi and big swords. Getting close to a guardian may not be as dangerous because his stats aren't as likely to all be maxed (or are often sacrificing trinkies to do so) turning them weaker.
As for recons, that's actually down to the guns, not the swords. It's not about the recon, as guardians would be in no worse position than a recon. A striker with guns is just as scary as a cloakless recon (excluding the fact that when a cloak regens it won't help you as much as a booster), and it's not over hard to get vh/max asi on strikers, especially since they have no gun negatives to counteract.

Although my vortex gunner has probably become my favourite build, so I agree on that. I make less of an effort towards caps and damage and focus on neutralising enemy points, kills for anyone I come across (or at the very least a lengthy distraction) and being a general nuisance. With hazes, everyone steps right at the edge and tries to get you. When you drop a vortex, people scatter, especially strikers as they generally only have swords. As soon as someone falls into it, nailin' them to death before it explodes is generally a given. Good counter for strikers I agree, but that's because I feel that that combo is effective against everyone and isn't relevant to "strikers better or worse than recons". I know that guardians are immune (which I think is shocking; one class having complete immunity to a weapon?) but a large number don't realise and still edge around it or shield.

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 20:16

#59

Severage

@Darkbrady:

Eh?

Guardians are only "immune" to shock if they shield 24/7, which makes them immobile and easy targets. They don't get resistance, just their shield doesn't let them get shocked if it's up.

~Sev

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 20:35

#60

Darkbrady

Ha! Guess I did blether on a

Ha! Guess I did ramble on a bit during that, but there was a thought train involved, I assure you; no irrelevant bletherings!

~ vortex gunner
~ When you drop a vortex
~ Good counter for strikers I agree
~ effective against everyone
~ I know that guardians are immune

Got there in the end :)

No, what I meant was that guardians are immune to vortexes, and I'm appalled that one class has an advantage over one specific weapon. How much would people rage if recons were immune to heavy swords?

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LD, Whats a strikers weakness??