Spiral Knights - What killed the game?

What killed the game?

110 replies [Last post]

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 19:10

#51

Paweu

"Oh these are always fun! I

"Oh these are always fun! I love it when players make wild claims and accusations without hard data to back it up. They were fun in WoW and they're fun here. Like, oh noes, WoW is dying! They lost 1.1 million subs! Nevermind that it was in a lull before an expansion, or that they still have 9.1 million left, or are 136.5 million dollars a month from those remaining subs. Whatever will they do?!"

Stop stretching stuff out. I never said WoW is dying. And if 1.1 million lost subs doesn't seem too much to you then tell me, which P2P games even have that many subscribers?

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 19:19

#52

Dorael

@Paweu

"I never said WoW is dying."

Of course you didn't. You'd had to have said something in this thread in the first place. *checks* Don't see you saying anything before. So who are you and why are you acting like I was talking to you?

Regarding what I actually said and what it meant: people freak out about what they're interested in all the time. Go to the WoW forums. I can't even begin to recall how many times I've read threads where people claim WoW is dying and some random MMO is going to kill WoW. People love making stuff up without having any idea what they're talking about.

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 19:32

#53

Paweu

The only post that had "WoW",

The only post that had "WoW", "1.1 million" and "dying" together on those forums was mine so obviously I'd respond considering you stretched out stuff that I said.

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 19:27

#54

Otaia

I'm not going to make any

I'm not going to make any baseless generalizations about the state of the game, but I stopped playing around when Missions came out because the content felt too repetitive. I enjoyed my stay, but after running Vanaduke 50+ times and doing each Shadow Lair once, I feel like I've seen everything there is to see in the game. The occasional new map with a handful of new monsters isn't enough to make me want to start playing again, especially since the only rewards are points that don't really mean anything. I played Lockdown and Blast Network for a bit, but they're a bit too simplistic to keep me playing for more than a few weeks.

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 19:46

#55

Dorael

@Paweu

Er, no. If I wanted to respond to you I'd do so in that thread you posted in. I have no idea why some people can't keep their threads/arguments straight and have to just assume no one else is capable of it as well.

Let me spell it out.

This thread is making the claim that the game, Spiral Knights, is dying.
I draw an analogy to WoW players claiming that WoW is dying.
People have been claiming that WoW has been dying for the longest time, and that somerandomnewMMO is going to kill WoW. I mean, Jesus Christ google just gave me 3,370 returns on the phrase "WoW is dying" from the U.S. WoW forums alone.
My point was that just because so many players seem to think that a game is dying is, in itself, no indication of its actual decline.

While, from here, it would be illogical of me to make the assertion that Spiral Knights isn't dying from this argument alone, I think it's safe enough to say that some people claiming that SK is dying without any good reason or evidence to back it up are full of themselves.

Wtf I just looked for that thread you were talking about. I made one post, before yours, and post was not even arguing that WoW was dying. And it was three days ago. Why would you think I was responding to you here, in this completely different thread, three days later?

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 19:52

#56

Paweu

"Wtf I just looked for that

"Wtf I just looked for that thread you were talking about. I made one post, before yours, and post was not even arguing that WoW was dying. And it was three days ago. Why would you think I was responding to you here, in this completely different thread, three days later?"

What I saw was a maliciously twisted quote, but now that you clearly stated WoW forums as the base of your post I'll leave.

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 20:13

#57

Dirigible

I played the game

I agree with Jay-zz on his point about underage players, and this also has something to do when I started playing. See, I started playing when a friend recommended it to me from Steam in June 2011, which was about time when the great surge of newbs (including myself), kids, and noobs (different from newb) came.

Well, I can list a list of some random changes that still affect me to this day, and their impacts on me.

1. Elevator passes released, community expanded, Missions released, price manipulation conspiracy theories...- All led to much higher CE price/demand, resulting in higher prices, killing casual F2P players like myself (6 months to get a 5 star item).

2. Brandish charge attack augmented- After playing with Glacius for a long time, Brandish's charge attack potency was raised via more explosions, making fighting with my sword much easier and fun.

3. Death of RSS- A fairly recent development that killed my favorite damage vs. undead VH bomb and taunted me with a pure elemental version of the bomb. "Unforgivable"

4. Missions released-Arcade elevators are seldom used now, though I always use them.

5. Random nerfs to some monsters, greatly appreciated

6. Elemental damage added to gremlins, makes much more damage against my normal-piercing gear in T3.

7. DLC released, marked only because this was my first P2P "purchase" (indirectly through a friend steam gifting)

8. Doesn't really count but: a large period of stagnation (about a couple months, don't know specifics), during which no content excepting CE promos were released.

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 21:01

#58

Leafchime

Please read everything :)

Hmm, its a really tough question to answer.

Story time!

I first found Spiral Knights on steam by sheer luck after i quit wow in june 2011. Since i play on a mac, i'm limited to which games i can play because of compatability etc. As a high school kid, i dident have much money at the time either, so i randomly looked at f2p games on steam, and found SK.

I instantly fell in love with the game, i loved the character design, the music and the game as a whole. It was a game that you could play on and off.
Because of the recent steam release, SK was brimming with newbies like myself that had no clue what to do, which created an ideal enviroment for people to explore the game. The influx of new players, or rather new customers buying CE, drove the price of ce down to 3-4k cr per 100 ce.

The numbers of players started to dwindle during september-october in 2011, and a slight lack of updates made some people quit because they had already gotten their 5* gear, and got bored of farming FSC. With the release of the shadow lairs and lockboxes, and silver/shadow keys being introduced, people got annoyed over that you had to gamble in order to get the new accessories, not to mention that shadow keys cost a ton of ce.

I myself quit during the end of may 2012, getting tired of the inflated economy, and the slight lack of updates, but mainly because i wasen't doing much in the end. I did a few daily runs of either FSC or RJP depening on what i felt like doing, i had over 35 5* items, and had no goals left in the game to accomplish. I had max/VH UVs on alot of my stuff, and i'll admit to spending alot of money on the game that i loved... but in the end, i just got bored.
What SK really needed were more bosses, and more stratums added to the clockworks, not to mention new armor and weapons.

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Imo the main reasons the game slowly decayed over time:

-Lack of big updates with actual gameplay. We all know that Three Rings does not have the biggest developement team, and that might be why the game lacked actual gameplay updates. We had two MAJOR updates, Shadow Lairs and the mission system. Shadow lairs were released during october 2011 if i remember correctly, and the mission system was released in february-march. That is a 3-4 month gap between any update that is not cosmetic.
This is a very touchy subject, but i think that the game would have done better if Three Rings had a bigger developement team that could push out more regular content. And i also believe that the mission system could have been handeled a bit better.

-"Gambling" The endless variety of lockboxes we have in the game, containing mainly recycled gear. And not to mention Punch and UV rolling.

-The energy system: Having a player run economy is cool and everything, but it can be easily manipulated by players or guilds who hoard massive amounts of ce. At the moment we are seeing that the price is being held at around 8k cr per 100 ce, which essencially creates an economical brick wall for new players who cant afford to upgrade their gear. I think the game would be better off with another type of system that decides the pace of the game. When i started, a free player could get their full 5* set in about a month or so by just playing regularely, without just farming FSC/RJP over and over again. Also, Three Rings "fix" to the energy system being manipulated have been nothing but promotion after promotion to keep the ce price in check, cant really be called for a proper solution.

-Lack of long term goals. More achievements? Other ways to earn prestige, and more rewards? <- more missions on rotation for prestige. Costume sets being awarded for getting certain achevements etc.

-Lack of new players. I dont really have to explain this point.

-Three Rings business model.

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It was really hard to abandon the game after playing it for nearly a year. I had 6/8 rose regalia sets and over 1000 hours spent ingame.
Still, i dont regret supporting the game for so long, and it is a sad thing to see the game in its current state. What SK really needs is a surge of new players, new content that can be accessed without having to pay for it, and a solid polish on the energy system.

-Leafchime >_<)/)

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 21:51

#59

Dirigible

@Leafchime

I should just go delete my previous post in this thread, you basically took every reason I had and made it so much...better...anyways I hope that me bumping this thread doesn't cause my RSS nerf rant thread to fall into obscurity.

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 22:57

#60

Hmmnm

Lots of blame to go around...

a. Hall of heroes. It made all the boss weapon recipies sky high, making the best weapons unavailable to T2 players who are aiming torwads T3.
b. 5* hall of heroes before KOA. 4* players used to at least have some friends to help grind KOA. Now its just the first two levels of RJP.
c. Missions. Without the arcade, the clockworks are ultra monotonous.
e. Bugs not fixed. Stun.
f. Not enough variety because much of the equipment is underpowered/unusable.
g. New content lacking. The Expansion required money or signup with steam; the danger missions are just old enemies reskinned.
Plus the danger missions seem to encourage going solo.
e. PvP Lockdown is unbalanced. Balance is subjective, but you know for sure it is unbalanced if some popular weapons (ex: Blitz) cannot be used at all in LD.
f. Disregard to the player fanbase. Iron slug - no update. Irontech - half *ssed buff.
g. Big failed update. 3 fails in 1.

Enough reasons to quit?

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 01:35

#61

Round-Shinigami

Thanks for your opinions!

Thanks for your opinions! Need some time to process so much new info.

I'm not claiming this game will shut down tomorrow or this year, no, I'm saying its slowly shrinking and hoping to see some major update this year, which will bring a LOT of players (both old and new) to the game.
I'm not saying some random RPG will take over, to me SK is one of a kind, a unique game. Its nice, prettier than many games and yet its battle-oriented (as opposed to child-oriented).

IMO, the mission interface gets too much in the way of a casual, usual player, too much offering too much stuff.
Prior to update it wasn't clear that you can just grab some $50 CE pack and do the game in a week or two. When I started playing, I bought starter pack (7500 CE), and I used it all up in under a week, crafted a couple of 4* items and that was it. Now you can just buy all of that stuff in supply depot, best of all - you don't even have to think! It gives you "best item for this mission" offer! It just gets in the way of exploring the game - there is no exploring to do any more, you just click "next mission" till you're done. And this gets too repetitive.
Prior to missions you had full choice of where to go and what to do. It was always your decision. Now? Now its always next mission! Or so it seems.

As for new tiers, new bosses, new stratums - I have to agree. We need a bigger game with more content. More stratums, more bosses, more items that fit well into game system. But its hard to imagine OOO's development team even capable of such high-level performance, most likely they'll continue grinding player base with regular CE sales, sadly.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 05:20

#62

Sir-Alfred

One thing that keeps this

One thing that keeps this game fun and interesting for me is I don't buy any ce packs, just an elevator pass, so I still have to work towards getting my 5* items. I like to either go on fsc runs with friends or just join random teams in the arcade ( although there haven't been that many lately =c ).

As others have said, too few real game updates, and some bad promos (last one was just ghastly, I thought it looked like a nice emerald or forest green, but puke coloured armour is just disgusting!)

As I'm still refining my skills with vanaduke, I can see how players feel that they need new bosses (When I was still new to vanaduke, I was astounded when my teammate said lay back, and I'll do vana. He soloed vana in a 4 man team! For players like that, I really feel that there needs to be new and exciting bosses for them. Shadow lairs don't count because of the high cost just to do them).

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 23:10

#63

Innocentthoughts

To those who claim that there

To those who claim that there are no numbers to backup the low population, you can just look at steam stats

Right now there are 688 players with a peak of 1800 for today. A year ago there was close to 6000+ and peaks were around 2500 a few months ago.

You have to be seriously ignorant and stupid if you think this game hasn't died down.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 23:21

#64

Softhead

And you know this how?

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 23:47

#65

Neonlighter

Why am i still continuing to play this game?

Recently OOO has been coming up with promos to tempt players to buy There was this annoying LD bug that was mentioned before too , it was so irritating that i had to wait for the "clearance" to "Equip Loadout" , plus the sudden lag spikes. Moreover, compare with the previous years, OOO wasnt too much into profiteering and provide quality gameplay. Is OOO progressing towards profiteering instead of providing quality gameplay, right now? I almost forgot to add on this new bug that was previously fixed has came back again, wolvers are able to teleport outside non-reachable area in HOI

Thu, 08/16/2012 - 00:18

#66

Villainus

Really.

These promos are not just profiteering, they are a way to affect the CE market. Because CE is so high promos are more frequent in an attempt to lower the CE market. I also doubt these promos are affecting the advancement of new content in a serious way. We had lots of complainers before the missions system that there was no new content. Now that we have new content we have complainers that the game is too different without the clockworks. It is not as if the missions update destroyed the clockworks! Honestly I can understand why some players are butthurt because of the RSS change/nerf but this game is still going strong.

Thu, 08/16/2012 - 00:25

#67

Neonlighter

CE promos

It just lowers the ce market by 10% that much while those boxes are only to be opened by a fortunate player. Anyway it just my way of thinking, it's up to you to decide whether it is a bad or good thing to buy

Thu, 08/16/2012 - 00:47

#68

Asukalan

Im sure that letting players

Im sure that letting players hoard variant tickets and then sell them for crowns surely will help CE market. Especially if those players who previously wanted to spend CR on uv tickets, now have both UV tickets and even more crowns will start buying out CE.

Thu, 08/16/2012 - 00:54

#69

Neonlighter

UV tickets

Hehe you forget about that punch who cheats you of your uv tickets

Thu, 08/16/2012 - 21:30

#70

Virtuewis

@ Round-Shinigami

My understanding is a bit different from yours on a couple of the points in your last post. Maybe there is a middle ground between them that would explain the phenomenon you are describing (game dying or whatever) and why I disagree.

First of all, you are showing a lot of numbers from Steam accounts and gauging participation in SK based on them. I'm pretty sure OOO knows how many players are still playing and can be a better judge of how successful the game is than any of us. If they were concerned about preserving a (hypothetically) dwindling player base, they would probably change their tactics towards a more cult-like approach. Judging by how elusive they've been here on the forums lately, I doubt that this is the case. I know nothing, this is just my hunch, but it would explain the lack of OOO pandering to all the rage and hate from their "loyal" players.

Next, your point about: "Shortcuts - bad, as it nullifies any need to explore the game, getting used to it, getting to love it. It just gives you a quick reason to f*ck it with a $50 CE purchase and move on..." This is a problem that is a player problem, NOT a OOO problem. Why does anyone need a quick reason to progress through the game just to move on? That sounds like an impatient player that doesn't even want to play a game. They just want to get e-things and move on. I can only assume this is the same type of player that gauges their fun based on what gear and currency they have compared to other players, instead of enjoying the game. That cannot be helped, and IMO it's great that OOO can capitalize off these players, since they are so flakey as to move on once they have everything, they can't be counted on to stay loyal anyway.

Thu, 08/16/2012 - 21:45

#71

Njthug

@Round

Set Ce Prices is a terrible idea since it means that the price won't be fair:

Common struggle in this game F2P Vs P2P: Which side is greedy?:

Free-Players:

Wish to play this game and reach 5* weapons etc. without spending much time and such thus asking for a lower Crown to Ce ratio. Players at one point complained Ce reaching 3k+ Crowns is way too much, 5k+ is way too much etc. But, now this just proves F2P players are being greedy by wanting to play this game free, but wishing that it was less time consuming.

Pay-to-pay-Player:

They want the most out of their dollar which means higher return on 100ce. Some P2P players feel 7k to 10k+ Crowns is fair since they are spending good earned money to receive crowns. So, for them to be willing to sell their ce for crowns they want the best return on it per dollar.

Both sides are being greedy at the end of the day the system works based on the what the given market price is for that given point. Ce is around 8k to 8.6k Crowns currently since that is what the P2P players find fair to sell at. Anyways, what a set fair price for Three Rings might be 10k Crowns per 100ce etc. (They avoid this issue by stabilizing the exchange and leaving it to the players to have full-control since the only reason players can't get to 5* gear fast enough is due to the players not Three Rings).

This game might be dying in your eyes, but steam account statics don't show all of it at all many players play without the client. Steam Summer-sale might play into the slowness of the game activeness (For Steam stats). If you do wish to say Three Rings "loyal players" have quit this game that is a straight lie since I can name over 10+ kids who been playing this game ever since beta.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 00:43

#72

Fehzor

^It is less about greed and more about a ridiculous net game in players. You can name 10+ "kids" who have played since the beta (which is all that will ever matter, I know) but I have a feeling that I can name quite a few more that have played 'angry birds' for any amount of time. The future is SO much more exciting than the past.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 04:24

#73

Round-Shinigami

Virtuewis Lack of activity

Virtuewis
Lack of activity from developers does not mean everything is going great. It may also mean they're afraid to make any rash decisions and are studying the situation. This can also mean they're happy people are spending $$ to get CE without thinking what happens tomorrow (the faster player base, which is more-or-less stable, gets "full" of this game, the sooner they stop spending $$, in the long run its a suicide tactics, prioritizing short-term gain over long-term relationship (which is more profitable in the long run - look at WoW player base - the longer they play, the longer they pay)).

Njthug
As for greedy vs greedy - certainly, you have a point. F2P want cheaper CE, P2P want expensive CE, but devs are supposed to somehow balance the two of them. Directly or not is their own choice. Limitations they imply on themselves is also their own choice.
What you're not considering: only people, that are ready to spend $50+ on a monthly basis actually benefit from higher CE price, the rest doesn't buy CE in great quantity (my personal speculation on the point, I have no hard evidence other than my own experience and people I talked to, who mostly purchased CE packs for up to $20 and ele passes). Besides, people buy CE not to sell it for crowns. And this is the source of the problem. People don't need crowns most of the time. Give them enough crown sinks (ways to spend crowns in place of CE) and CE price will stabilize or even start decreasing.

High CE price does not lead to people paying more. It leads to people buying less CE for in-game-made crowns. This opinion is based on my personal experience.

Back to Virtuewis
Thing with fast "play and forget" players - as I said before, the whole problem is: the faster you complete the game, the sooner you stop playing. Developing loyalty in a player takes time, but if you can manage to get them hooked up on the game, you can gather money from them for a long time. Possibly, this will lead to small transactions, but if you have a big (and growing) player base where players spend a little every month, you will make a more or less stable amount monthly, which is far better (IMO) than larger one-time spendings by few players. Those one-time spendings won't repeat. You may get a fortunate month, a fortunate year, but in the next year results will be horrible. When I calculate these numbers, I always try to think a few steps ahead, so that I know where I am headed.

If nothing is done, this game will become even smaller with even less active players. I want it to grow, not shrink, and thats why I made this discussion. I'm looking for reasons why it is shrinking now. Afterwards I'll gather opinions on what can/should be done to make things better.

Back to mission interface:
I honestly expected it to be something like "visiting this level triggers this mission" kind of system, or a new elevator on some levels that leads to "extra" levels (alternative versions) that lead you through missions/campaign. Or anything but direct shortcuts that take away the fun from the game. Reminder: going into arcade no longer triggers missions, its a "free roam" mode now. Which is just wrong, IMO.
I think missions should be "built into" arcade. It just says you need to reach specific depth at specific gate and then your elevator is taken over by mission elevator, leading to mission levels.
I still believe hall of heroes must only show properties of existing items (like in-game wiki with preview) instead of selling all the recipes for basil price. Currently "heroes" are guys who stand in all sorts of armors in the hall of heroes. They no longer fight for the Spiral Order, they trade recipes... its just sad.

Again, I'm not saying any game is going to take over SK, I'm not saying SK will die out in a month or is already "dead". I'm saying community is shinking at a frightening rate (from what I can tell). I believe there is a lot of work that needs to be done to save this game, and this is what I'm offering to discuss: main reasons for community shrinking - players leaving the game, or more players leaving than new players coming.

Maybe its lack of developer commentaries? I heard they're quiet here on the forums, while I remember reading their comments on many things here on the forum in the past.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 04:58

#74

Deltikon

A simple solution for half the problems, specially for the $ one

Kill the grinding. Make the CE costs cheaper at least, not just from crafting, but also for everything. Seriously, to unbind a bloody 5* sword you need 4K. FOUR THOUSAND CE just to be able to sell it on the AH. And to make it even funnier, a 5* item costs 3,5K CE on the supply depot. Does this makes any sense that unbinding an item is more expensive than buying a new one? Not to mention about the keys, of course...

Just halve if, less CE required means less need to buy it, which reliefs the market, making it cheaper. And for those who think OOO will lose money out of that decision, you're wrong. Getting rid of the grinding will make the game more enjoyable, which will attract more people. And more people mean a better chance of getting dosh out of them.

And of course, while half is just because of that, the other is because of no content. Sure, the danger missions are a nice addition, but you can only play them once on your own every day... People want something bigger, like the opening of the core, I know many of you do! Even I do... And people just get tired of waiting and leave. So more gameplay content would be appreciated.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 11:44

#75

Round-Shinigami

Deltikon"Kill the grinding"

Deltikon
"Kill the grinding" - what do you mean by this? What needs to be done to "kill the grinding"?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 11:54

#76

Dorael

@Round-Shinigami

Free everything for everyone! Also no rare items or anything else of high value.

Here's something from over a year ago.

Dorael - Mon, 04/04/2011 - 13:16

It appears to me that the general complaint most people have is that they can't quickly leap ahead of content for free.

Regarding the free part, CE would have to be going for around 10k Crowns for it to begin to be a limiting factor of my ability to play for free. Your mileage may vary and it seems to largely depend on how many floors you can do full clears of (entire dungeons, including danger rooms and such) with minimal deaths. At 100/10k I could see it be an annoyance while only doing T1 content but you can get around that by just using ME and going much slower (albeit still free). Once you're able to do T2 though I see 100/10k being possible.

Regarding the time component, I think a lot of people are in too much of a rush. If you can't get to T2 in three days, that is NOT a bad thing. If the typical player can finish end game content within a week or two, that IS a bad thing. Slow down, chill out, enjoy the process. The game itself is fun. Right now my friends and I are basically just grinding through T2 farming for crowns, mats, recipes (curse you Crossroads vendor!), and Jelly gems. None of us are complaining though because the process doesn't feel like a grind at all. We're having quite the blast.

A lot of things have changed since then. With missions I think it's easier to get into T2 (don't you get free gear along the way?). I don't see why it's a bad thing for it to take a few months to reach the end game though.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 12:26

#77

Deltikon

Not literally Shinigami

I'm just saying that if you put the grinding to a minimum, more people will join and enjoy the game. And all it has to be done is to make the CE costs cheaper.

Dorael: "I don't see why it's a bad thing for it to take a few months to reach the end game though."
Maybe it's because, I dunno, it takes A FEW MONTHS to reach the end game with not enough content for all that time! What will you be doing after you done everything you could do on Tier 2, fight royal jelly 50 times?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 12:30

#78

Dorael

Delt, what exactly do you

Delt, what exactly do you think you'll be doing in Tier 3?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 12:48

#79

Deltikon

The same thing as I've been doing on Tier 2

Playing on the most profitable level over and over again in hope that someday I'll be able to buy something. But the difference is that I'm forced to grind forever on tier 2 so I can pass to tier 3. And again, if the stuff was more affordable and accessible, I wouldn't be sitting around and constantly harassing the gelatinous majesty to "gib coin", because doing the same thing over 50 times really gets boring.

Also I didn't liked that you implied that the grinding is a "feature".

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:10

#80

Eltia

What killed the game?

The idea that this game costs money to develop but it is dressed up as free (to play).

All this debate about F2P vs P2P should be treated equal is moot. F2P are Gold farmers (or Real Money Trading, RMT for short). The only real subscribers are people who paid for the game. That is, P2P covers the development cost for F2P.

Development needs to become more efficient and addresses the most urgent issues first. One way to approach this is that the developers need to read the Suggestions forum, while limiting access to post to this forum to P2P only. This only makes sense because you need some way to limit the traffic on this forum while allowing the people that matter to be heard. Also, don't bother with in-game survey. Spend the resources to read through the Suggestion forum would give you more lead as to what you didn't do right.

A suggestion is "cute" isn't enough. It has to satisfy the people that pay for the development cost. No resources, no company. Are we on the same page, Three Rings?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:12

#81

Deltikon

6/10

I know some people will believe you are being serious Eltia...

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:33

#82

Eltia

Actually I'm

The problem with this game is that developers (especially Nick) subscribes to the wrong opinions, that does not translate to profit stream for SK. As a result, development continues to waste effort in the wrong direction, making SK into a game that neither P2P nor prospective F2P would consider investing in. This vicious cycle continues and leads to this thread.

Solution is straight forward. Development listens to the right people (that would translate into profit for SK), make the game into something that at least one tier of people would invest money in. Right now, I don't see that happening, especially with the recent bomb patch and OOO's continuing silence on it.

Like it or not guys, this is capitalism. No resources, no company, no SK. You guys seriously think Sega will not shutdown Three Rings if they don't turn in enough profit? It happened to other acquired companies before.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:40

#83

Nightscloud

Do you agree?

What killed the game is all these hate threads and you lazy people who won't work hard enough to make 8.4kcr for ce.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:41

#84

Dirigible

...

The game hasn't really died, I'm pretty sure Havens all across the board are far more crowded than when I played last year. Rather, the game has just slowed down a bit thanks to a lack of significant content updates.

I posted here before but I felt like posting again, because I don't really think the game has died, but really it's just been shabby with updates that only are applicable to energy buyers or people sitting bored at the endgame.

I'm currently at the "running FSC till my brains fall out" stage, where I have been playing on and off since around March. I was pretty well on my way too and satisfied with the game before the devs/designers/whoever killed my RSS undead VH. Now I'm not really playing anymore, because what's the point of playing if the people who run the place can just radically and irrevocably nerf my bombs?

Regardless, the game's still good I'm sure, especially or people who never owned a high value UV RSS. This post is just my own special way of raging about a certain piece of gear that's had some remarkable changes as of the 8/8 update (so much for a lucky day).

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:47

#85

Dorael

@Eltia

Except they have a basis for this: it's called Puzzle Pirates. Once upon a time, Three Rings made most of their money via the subscription model. They tried out a F2P model on a new PP server as an experiment, way before it caught on with everyone else (outside of Korea). It worked. Most of their money in Puzzle Pirates comes from Doubloons now instead of Subs.

If you want to say that Three Rings is losing money, show some evidence of it. Anything else is wild speculation. They already have a history of this working though.

@Deltikon: Feature isn't the right word for it but all MMOs have some sort of thing to grind/prolong the game-play experience. I would love for every experience to be new every time but that's just not really that feasible. As long as the gameplay itself, at the core, is fun. If you've been grinding too much lately you should take some breaks, play less, do other things while also playing this game a bit more casually.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:46

#86

Dirigible

@Darkemo

you need to see the issue of CE from a play-to-player's point of view. They PROVIDE all of the energy for us, and them selling it is good regardless of price. The only type of P2P energy buyers I really dislike are the price manipulating guilds, who may or may not be at fault for the hiking prices lately.

However, they spent IRL-monies for the energy, so energy sellers in general are entitled to do whatever they want and charge whatever they want as well, because they are really the people funding SK, soooooo...

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:58

#87

Deltikon

DARKEMO SAYS GRINDING IS A FEATURE GUISE!

AND THAT WE ARE JUST LAZY! Have fun playing Royal Jelly 500000 billion times just to get 1/20 of what you need to craft the 4* gear.

And eltia, that idea sounds really stupid. p2pers with terrible ideas gets be listened while the f2pers with great ones are left out. Does it sounds good for a MMO?

And no Doreal, if grinding is a way to "prolong the game experience", then the developers are doing it wrong. No-one should be forced to play the same bloody level for 50 days in order to get a lousy weapon. And I'm not exactly saying it should be new all the time, I'm just saying to keep things accessible, in order to keep the game fun and less of a chore to get on the endgame.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:51

#88

Eltia

@Dorael

Yes, it worked back in 2003. Now it's 2012 and there are a lot more competition (not to mention the industry is very different now). It's hard to find a "timeless" formula, especially in a rapidly changing industry like gaming. People who played Final Fantasy knew what happened to them.

So adapt, or go extinction. My opinion on what went wrong with SK remains unchanged. The problem is development that works hard in the wrong direction, and they did so because they listened to the wrong groups of people (namely those that do not translate into revenue stream). My suggestion would be a first (and relatively effortless) step to correct this flaw.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 14:10

#89

Dorael

@Eltia

It's still working for PP right now though.

I think trying to go for a timeless formula isn't the right way to look at it, or this game. No game is supposed to last forever, just enjoy it for its duration and move on. Too many people get too obsessed or focused on one thing, you can play other games while playing this game, too.

It might be one thing if this were a single player game but multiplayer ones, especially MMOs, generally don't last forever.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 20:16

#90

Derpules

That's obvious.

But it should also be obvious that the optimal outcome for all concerned is a long-lived and profitable game. Your point that all games die sooner or later is neither here nor there.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 20:35

#91

Dorael

@Derpules

Yeah. And if SK had a much larger team behind it it'd be a different story. As is, I think SK does have a lot of long lasting appeal so long as the players don't splurge themselves out all in one go (or a over a short period of time). My point is that this game has a lot more longevity if, when people start to get tired, they take more breaks in between play and go do/play other things, and come back once in a while for new stuff or just a refresher.

In MMOs where there is no real ending burnout is generally the end of it for many players (as opposed to single player games where you finish/complete a game). I don't think the amount of time investment (grind) needed for SK is all that bad in itself, especially compared to other things. There isn't really a feeling of farming things since it's a skill based game. Well, technically I'd argue against FSC on that point. I wouldn't argue against Royal Jelly because generally players have a lot of room to improve still and can improve from playing it. FSC is pretty much almost all zombies all the time and it's easy and boring. But that's a separate complaint.

I think I just went off topic majorly and I apologize. The hell was this thread about again?

Oh right, what's wrong with this game. I think that no matter what they do, some people are not going to be happy. Very important note: some people are not always the same people. To put it another way: they can't make everyone happy, and the ones they don't make happy will voice their unhappiness. Just because there are complaints about the game doesn't mean the game isn't profiting or doing well. Just because a game isn't doing as well as it was previous (particularly when it just launched, or got an expansion/patch, or just went on steam, etc.) doesn't mean it's doing poorly.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 03:33

#92

Round-Shinigami

I made another huge reply but

I made another huge reply but after revising it I see I'm just ranting about same stuff.
Basically, after the introduction of supply depot and mission system in general some parts of the game became... unnecessary. Like, recipe trading, standard item crafting, high-level items without UV. And what was given in its place? A single-run mission system? You had stuff to do for months, and in its place received something you can do in less than a week. And you still wonder why this game shrinked down?

This game needs more players, and without more content and need to explore the game to find that content I believe the game won't be able to keep players busy long enough to increase population. Advertizing may bring some fresh meat to the game, but will they stay long enough to make a difference? Will they convert their purchased CE into crowns? Will they affect the game in any way?

My main question is: Will the game keep shrinking?

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 03:59

#93

Deltikon

A few things I have to tell you off Dorael,

"I don't think the amount of time investment (grind) needed for SK is all that bad in itself"
Maybe not so much for a Tier 3, but considering you need at least 1,6K of CE (each 100 costs over 8K, so that's a whopping 128K cr you need, without counting the mist tanks) just to craft the 4* gear required to move up to tier 3, and the most profitable mission that is indeed the Royal Jelly Palace gives you just about 2,5K average. So, doing a bit of math, you need to replay the mission about LITERALLY 50 times in order to get all that money! And YOU tell US that the grinding isn't so bad? You may want to replay tier 2 with a new character to see how bad it is then.

"There isn't really a feeling of farming things since it's a skill based game"
You may want to play lockdown more often then, and after you do, tell me if is skill based and you don't feel the need for grinding to get pendants and other p2w gibberish. As it's not because it's skilled based, the gameplay is just very fun in my opinion, but that's not an excuse to make the stuff so hard to get.

"I wouldn't argue against Royal Jelly because generally players have a lot of room to improve still and can improve from playing it".
You know there are more monsters than the jellys, right? If someone only played against them 24/7, he could beat them all with a hand on his back, but if he tries to fight against some other monster, fiends to be more precise, he probably wouldn't live for very long. Again, variety is important, and grinding can easily kill it.

And finally:
Oh right, what's wrong with this game. I think that no matter what they do, some people are not going to be happy. Very important note: some people are not always the same people. To put it another way: they can't make everyone happy, and the ones they don't make happy will voice their unhappiness. Just because there are complaints about the game doesn't mean the game isn't profiting or doing well. Just because a game isn't doing as well as it was previous (particularly when it just launched, or got an expansion/patch, or just went on steam, etc.) doesn't mean it's doing poorly.

Let me explain you a few things pal:

>While there's a small amount of people that are unhappy with a tiny thing or two, a large majority, specially the tier 2 players, complain about the CE prices being too damn high. Why? Because of what I mentioned above, and in short they have to do that MUCH money in order to get what they want in the game, without resorting to real money. They're not just complaining about the CE prices being too high, they're complaining about the enormous chore they have to do to get it. A way to make them happier, not just them but everyone too, and hopefully to stop the CE price complain threads, is to reduce the CE costs for the recipes, as I mentioned on the posts above.

>Complaining about the bad stuff happening in the game and itself doing well in a wealthy way have nothing to do to each other. Just to add up, its not because the game is doing well that there are no reasons to complain. Another thing, a game could be piss awful and there would be still idiots supporting it. See SWTOR for example.

>Patches CAN affect on how well the game is doing, by changing something that is important for some, if not all, players. If there's a patch that ruins that goodness or the fun, they eventually go away. How many people you think they left after the well known auction house patch? I might be vaguely remembering, but didn't they made the higher star gear untradable, and that also increased the CE costs on the recipes? Do you think a wise person wouldn't be against those changes and stop supporting the game for the devs pulling that bad move? And more recent example is the shard bombs' polemic. People simply disliked the bombs, despise having fancy explosions. And on top of that, the puke colored costumes and the UV tickets.
But there's someone who is actually complaining about this "update", and (s)he DOES have a point. http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/62033

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 09:06

#94

Round-Shinigami

Deltikon "you need at least

Deltikon
"you need at least 1,6K of CE just to craft the 4* gear required to move up to tier 3"
Its hard to survive in 4* gear in tier 3, I recommend getting a full 5* set first.

"without resorting to real money"
You do know it costs money to actually let you play, to make the game, make updates, provide support, provide servers ect ect ect, right, pal?

"to reduce the CE costs for the recipes"
Did you mean reducing CE part in item crafting price?

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 09:21

#95

Deltikon

@Round-Shinigami

>Its hard to survive in 4* gear in tier 3, I recommend getting a full 5* set first.
Only if you're a casual that is, no offense. I can do almost all tier 3 levels, both depths with CHAOS set and a swiftstrike buckler. And chaos gear is about as tough as any 4* armor, not to mention elemental weakness. Even so, if you want to jump to the tier 3 only when you have full 5* equipment, then I hope you enjoy visiting your gelatinous majesty a lot, because it will take OVER 256K crowns(!) to get enough money to buy enough energy for crafting a full set of 5*. And that without even considering recipe costs and mist tanks.

>You do know it costs money to actually let you play, to make the game, make updates, provide support, provide servers ect ect ect, right, pal?
I know, but I implied that if you don't spend IRL money on the game, youll be having to play JK 50 times to get all that money to buy CE.

>Did you mean reducing CE part in item crafting price?
Yes, and not just. Unbinding a 5* weapon costs MORE than buying a weapon from supply depot. Can you believe that nonsense?

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 09:39

#96

Round-Shinigami

DeltikonWithout spending

Deltikon
Without spending money, without buying 4* equipment killing JK is the game. Unless you're ready to spend mist or ce to play other, less profitable levels.

About swiftstrike - man, I wish they'd make a 5* variant of it. Killed vana with that wonderful thing countless times. Helps a lot.
I remember the first time in FSC - I died all over the place. Now I rarely get killed there, even with swiftstrike (I used to carry owlite shield, later replaced by CoA).

I believe doing runs is the very reason most people play this game, and JK runs just happen to be among the most profitable runs in the game. Some call it grinding, I call it "playing MMO".

If I had access to any item in the game from the start, I'd get bored in less than a month. As things were prior to mission system, it kept me playing for over 9 months straight. And I believe its more fun to reach JK palace via arcade gate instead of using mission shortcut. Yeah, I'm aware of the fiend stratum, but thats not a problem to me and my skolver set, swiftstrike. I got final flourish!

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 10:02

#97

Deltikon

I'm not saying that things should be dirt cheap, Shinigami...

...or just given away, I'm just saying that it's ridiculous to have to dedicate so much time on the most profitable mission because you want some sort of equipment badly. And an MMO shouldn't be based about that. And grinding, I'll repeat again, is NOT a feature NOR an experience that you, or ANYONE should have.

If you like to play the same level over and over again, fine by me. But I don't want to be forced to play the same bloody thing all the time just to get enough money for a new item. Nope, people want to enjoy the game without being forced to either pay moni for CE or making Royal Jelly dessert or making litter from vanaduke's ashes a daily routine. Routines are boring, and for that I got fed up with the FSC when I played it for the 8 billionth time.

I'm just saying that the game would be a lot more enjoyable if the prices were much more accessible; not at a dirt-cheap point, but only enough that it's just necessary to do a jelly run for just about 10 times, rather than a repetitive 50. And of course, that would bring more people back. Because grinding kills the mmo experience, and not makes it.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 10:36

#98

Round-Shinigami

Deltikon Isn't WoW, the most

Deltikon
Isn't WoW, the most successful MMORPG of all time, based around infinite grinding, where reaching that end-game experience can take years?

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 10:53

#99

Ranzoh

This game is too much like

This game is too much like digital crack as one of my friends put it. Some of us, rather be doing something else, at least us older folks, and I don't mean to sound insulting, it's just the way life is. Hey, a lot of people here are for the free market right? Well we have to have games where we aren't pulled into grinding for years and years, and that only takes us at least a week or so to beat and complete mostly everything. What good is it, if we can't go out and build our skills, our portfolio through learning programming and such, or other such knowledge and experience if we're tied to this game all day? A game designed for those of us who want to get ahead in games and in life but takes almost forever with one single game is not going to come out so good while once our lives has already flashed before our eyes. I can understand why my friend is staying away from games like this, and was never really into rpgs when we grew up, even though he's addicted to games and thinks about them all the time, wrote and freelanced for ign, guides and reviews in his own time, and dabbled into programming, which he is doing now. I'd like to improve my skill at that, as I am pretty rusty at it now, while learning new things, but I'm so focused on maximizing my crown potential, etc, and grinding is what is taking a lot of time from me, not to mention straining my PC.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 11:13

#100

Deltikon

...you can't be serious Shinigami...

Please tell me you're trolling...

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