Defense having very little effect in Lockdown
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 09:29
As some of us know, there have been people running damage tests in lockdown. One of the test results shows how little defense actually does for you. The post can be viewed here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/63022#comment-520148
For an idea on how defense works in PVE, read here: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/User:Antistone#Effects_of_Defense
Comparing the two, defense does a whole lot more for you in PVE, the difference is flat out obvious.
I don't know if this is a bug, but it might be. That's why the post is here in general discussion. Nonetheless, defense should do more. After thinking about it, it's strange how toothpicks are so prevalent despite how prevalent skolver is. You'd think with all that pierce defense that something else would be used a lot more.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 09:48
#2
That's for T3. It's a whole different ballgame in the other tiers.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 12:19
#3
^True.
But within that context, Trollingyou raises a valid concern.
Also, how great is the effect in T1-2 LD? I don't think a study has been done. Perhaps it also makes less difference there than one would think.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 11:21
#4
Higher tiers should mean better defense
Your weapons and shields become more effective in higher tiers, so I don't see why armor should be left out of the picture. Going from no defense in a particular attribute to very high defense in that same attribute should reduce far more than just a couple of bars of damage.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 16:14
#5
Comment
Defense is indeed marginal, but in some cases it makes the difference between being able to take an extra hit, which is a pretty big difference. What I don't agree with though is how much of an effect UVs have relative to simply having base defense.
Example:
Max damage FF vs. no piercing defense = ~7.5 bars (striker dies in 4 hits from both max [typical striker] and VH damage [typical guardian])
"" vs. regular skolver = ~7.0 bars (takes 4 hits from max damage, 5 hits from VH damage)
"" vs. double pierce med skolver = 6.0-6.5 bars (5 hits from max/VH damage)
"" vs. double pierce max skolver = 5.5-6.0 bars (5 hits from max, 6 hits from VH)
Taking an extra hit is a pretty big deal when you're matching players of similar caliber. Trust me, you don't want defense to be doing more than it already is as it's only going to reinforce the usage of skolver.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 16:40
#6
Yes, one hit can make a big difference
But in your example there is something very illogical.
Max damage FF vs. no piercing defense = ~7.5 bars (striker dies in 4 hits from both max [typical striker] and VH damage [typical guardian])
"" vs. regular skolver = ~7.0 bars (takes 4 hits from max damage, 5 hits from VH damage)
This is very illogical. Going from having no defense to having a very large amount of defense in something (in endgame equipment nonetheless) should amount to WAY more than half a bar. In this case, baring UVs, if snarbolax and skolver had their status resists swapped I imagine there would be a lot more snarbolax than skolver in lockdown, simply because the difference in defense is a mere half bar and shivermist would be a bigger threat. Even when introducing the UVs...
"" vs. double pierce med skolver = 6.0-6.5 bars (5 hits from max/VH damage)
"" vs. double pierce max skolver = 5.5-6.0 bars (5 hits from max, 6 hits from VH)
Getting double max pierce on both pieces, which is not an easy task, only makes you take ONE extra hit from having NO pierce defense at all (2 from a guardian)? We have gone from nothing to something that in other games would be game breaking status and it only amounts to taking one extra hit. In other words, you might as well have gone for status resist UVs with all that money you used.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 16:42
#7
Hey my threads in one of the example :D
Yeah from full vog to full skolver you take 1/2 a bar less from BTB attack. Double maxes you take almost 2 bars less each hit as thrillhaus said.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 16:49
#8
Offense is much more
Offense is much more effective. It puts the ball in your court, so to speak. If you go defence you have to match your enemys weapon, but if you go offence you just have to match your own.
So if I go in full magic cloak, I have to rely on my enemy to use elemental. Fat chance 100% of my enemies will use elemental.
However, if I go in wolver, I have to rely on myself to use a sword. I can use a sword 100% of the fime if I want.
You can set it up so you always have a sword, but you can't make it so your enemy is always using elemental weapons, etc.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 18:01
#9
That is very true
You cannot count on your opponent using the same attribute as your defense 100% of the time. A smart opponent will bring multiple types of weapons to cover many situations.
This is another reason why defense should be more effective. Since you can't count on it working 100% of the time, it should work well when it does. Right now, it does so little it's not even worth it.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 18:14
#10
Don't forget that..
Skolver has Damage Bonus Medium.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 18:17
#11
We know
The examples used were with a max damage toothpick.
EDIT: minus guardian class of course.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 18:31
#12
"This is another reason why
"This is another reason why defense should be more effective. Since you can't count on it working 100% of the time, it should work well when it does. Right now, it does so little it's not even worth it."
Yup. Logicaly, if your defense is, say, half as likely to be effective as a standard offense bonus, it should be twice as effective when it does work. Double risk should equal double reward.
Not that those are exact ratios, probabaly your defense will only be useful less than half of the time, and when it is working it's sometimes even weaker than a damage bonus, that's in effect 24-7.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 20:06
#13
agreed.
Defensive items should play a pivotal stat vs weapons too. Instead of only helping vs bombs. lol, bombers always getting the wrong end of the stick. its incredible.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 14:25
#14
Poor bombers. Still a pretty
Poor bombers. Still a pretty pointy stick on both sides, if you've got multiple bombs.
What would be great is defense vs swords, defense vs guns, and defense vs bombs. Might not wanna put that on armor, but giving guardians sword ressist or something would be cool.
It is weird that it has very little use. Would be nice if defense actually meant something in LD. We could maybe, possibly get a little more variety.