Spiral Knights - FSC loadout advice

FSC loadout advice

33 replies [Last post]

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 20:55

Thinslayer

I've already done FSC a zillion times and even helped carry newbs through it, but I still can't decide on the best loadout for it. So I'd like some advice. I have lots of info to help you help me.

My skills are the following:
I am average at dodging things. I'm good enough to have survived shadow lairs with less-than-stellar parties, but I'm still prone to stupid errors in judgement more than I should be. I'm a fair shot with a gun, but have very little experience with alchemers and internal ricochets. I'm not a bomber, but I have decent timing skills should I need to learn the art. My main strength is swords, and am proficient in medium and slow swords, but not so much in fast ones like strikers or spurs.

I presently have only two weapon slots and no trinket slots, but I can afford more if need be. I would prefer to plan a loadout without expanded slots. If I absolutely need another weapon slot, I can get it.

Vanaduke's bullet hells tend to give me the most trouble, followed closely by his 5th stage, where, if things go awry, I often get blindsided by slag guards and smashed with Vana's mace when he's offscreen. If things go right, I can usually dodge slags if I'm paying attention to them. Trojans and zombies don't give me trouble except in closed spaces; then the Trojan buffs and zombie lunges are my worst enemies. You all know how often there are close quarters fights in FSC. I almost never hit shadow fire or spikes, and almost always dodge red rovers.

Now for the relevant arsenal. I only carry 5* gear into FSC, except when leveling. I'm fanatical about leveling things via FSC, so unleveled stuff takes precedence.
Armor sets:
Fallen lvl10, Vog lvl10, Heavenly Iron unlvld w/ UV fire med & curse med (net), Skolver unlvld, Ancient Plate lvl10
Shields:
GOS lvl10 UV pierce low, CoA lvl10, VPS lvl10 UV elemental low, Ancient Plate unlvld, BTS lvl10, SSB lvl10
Swords:
FoV unlvld UV ASI med, DA lvl10 UV CTR low, Glacius unlvld, CIV lvl10 UV undead high, Levi lvl10 UV ASI med, FF lvl10 UV ASI low, BTB lvl10 UV CTR low & Undead low (if I remember right)
Guns:
Valiance lvl10 UV CTR low, AP lvl10, Blitz lvl10 UV CTR low, Polaris lvl10
Bombs:
Shiver lvl10, Spike Shower unlvld (4*, I know, but I made an exception here because I'm aware of bomber preferences for it)

This isn't my entire arsenal, but only that I deem relevant to FSC. Any opinions on how I should equip myself, or any skills I really need to perfect or know about?

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 22:05

Severage

@Thinslayer:

Well, personally my gear of choice is the Deadshot Set with Crest of Almire and Voltedge + AP as my weapons. Sometimes Needle + AP. I don't use trinkets or any other fire resistance. I carry Remedy Capsules in case I get burned, which is typically uncommon.

Armors:

I wouldn't think Vog is the best choice. It provides defenses that are only used by Red Rovers (And the missile puppy), which you have said you don't have trouble with. The only reason I'd use Vog is for the fire resistance, which you said you don't get very often either.

I would only go with Skolver if you use swords almost exclusively, shield effectively (or don't get hit by zombie lunges), and don't plan on attacking the Boss himself. If you don't get hit much, Skolver with an elemental sword would be good for killing Slags at the end and throughout FSC.

The Fallen set is a pretty good choice if you already have it. It is very limited in its field of effectiveness though. It works well for FSC but not SLs and is not versatile enough to be used when venturing randomly through the Clockworks. But for FSC itself, there is little wrong with it. I would use this armor out of the ones you listed.

Heavenly armor is a good go-between from Fallen and Skolver. It gives two low buffs, but trades fire resistance for it. If you plan on killing trojans with FFs or BTBs as well as using an Elemental sword for the rest of the enemies, I'd use it.

Ancient Plate is...not recommended in my opinion. It provides lots of normal defense and health, which makes it rigid for clockwork-use, but for FSC you're likely looking for specialized use, like the Fallen set. The debuffs on it (though movement is extremely minor) aren't great either. I've never actually used it, but I would only use it if I didn't know what I was facing.

My favorite shield for FSC is CoA, because of the combination of great defenses and fire resistance. It has saved me from the Vanaduke-Mace-Shadowfire-Combo before. The fire resistance and lack of elemental defense can contradict each other, so shielding against flame traps and Red Rovers is not so effective. If you plan on using it for those, you'll probably want some sort of UV or a different shield.

For guns, it depends on your task. AP is by far my favorite sidearm for all things FSC. It does ~170 damage a bullet (When you wear deadshot...not sure otherwise) with a good clip and great mobility. It shoots quickly and precisely, which is great for flipping switches or destroying those wheel-spawners from the front (They are Construct and take extra damage from it). AP is useless for Vanaduke though if you have a Shivermist. It constantly breaks the ice and makes the ice bomb useless.

Valiance, like Ancient Plate, is a versatile weapon but not suggested for FSC because you can specialize for this cause. The only reason to use Valiance is for the Mask, because Vanaduke's Mask resists special damages. The mask generally isn't a problem though. If it is for you, or if you are designated to destroy it, the Valiance is probably a good bet.

Polaris I would only suggest if you have a hard time with zombies or hordes of enemies. Generally speaking, the zombies are sluggish. But if you are overwhelmed easily, the Polaris can help you by pushing them back as well as shocking them, which can disable their lunges. In close encounters though, the Polaris doesn't get enough time to generate a good push-back.

The Blitz is one of the most ubiquitous weapons of FSC because of its Vanaduke-Slaughtering charge attack. I take a needle if I am fighting Vanaduke. Otherwise, I find it a debilitating and highly immobile weapon. Some prefer it as a sidearm because it can OHKO (With a charge attack) a Trojan. I don't have many problems with Trojans, and I'm generally not the one fighting Vana, so I tend not to use it.

Shivermist is generally reserved for Vanaduke as well. If your team is lacking in firepower or skill, it can slow down enemies a great deal. Both this and Blitz will likely be your variable weapons. If someone has a shiver, don't use yours. If nobody does, use it. Similarly treat Blitz. Just don't use Shiver + Blitz.

Finally, swords. Your FoV has a good UV, but I'd say a CTR UV would be better. I've never used one though, so I can't tell you much on FoV. I know the charge can be very deadly to Slag Guardians on Vana, because they can be lit on fire.

DA is alright. I believe it used to be the King of FSC. The charge attack clips behind you easily though, and is useless unless you are in an open area. It does really good damage though, and the 2nd hit has a good knockback. Just be careful you don't throw enemies into your allies like when you use a Polaris though.

I'd use CIV over Levi, despite your ASI UV. With the CIV's UV on top of its innate undead bonus, it can be a zombie killer and a Vana Mask attacker. I wouldn't use it unless you plan on attacking the mask specifically, though, as (even with undead Ultra) Normal damage weapons are nerfed more than others.

I'm not exactly sure why you have both FF and BTB, I'm assuming for the charge attack, though I rarely see either one's charge. There is little to be done with pure-piercing here, I think. It might be average on zombies, and kill the um...6? wolvers in FSC, but it won't do anything to puppies. It is good on Trojans though. I've never used BTB's charge, but FF's charge on a Trojan's back hurts it a great deal. Just be sure if you use it as a trojan killer not to wear the Fallen Set. Still, I wouldn't use one.

Glacius is, in my opinion, not a great Brandish to use here. The charge on Brandishes is massive, but the slags will get frozen by the second explosion. They will miss the other, like, 6 explosions of 200+ damage. Comparing to others, Voltedge can debilitate slags by shocking, but sometimes lets them ride about half the wave. Combuster is, believe it or not, a great choice for FSC. It lights Slag Guardians on fire, and slags ride the entire wave of explosions.

I'm unaware of any particular reason to use DBB in this stage. It's a good bomb, but I don't see why you'd use it in particular here.

Overall I would use: Fallen Set (If you don't plan on killing Trojans, and because of your UVs, Heavenly Iron if you do plan on killing Trojans), CoA, DA and AP. If you want to hit mask a lot, CIV and AP. If there is no other shivermist, Shivermist and AP. If there's no other blitz, DA and Blitz.

On to strategy:

I assume by "bullet hells", you mean the fire that falls from the sky when his mace hits the ground? First off, a good shivermist bomber by your side will prevent him from using his mace very often, if at all. Secondly, only water areas that are completely essential to water. There is a limit to how much fire he can spread on the ground. Let uncommonly walked on areas be covered so that fire doesn't coincidentally land on top of you when he attacks.

If you're attacking Vanaduke solely, the Slag Guardians should be someone else's job. If there's nobody available to kill them, I'd kill them before attacking Vanaduke. Yes, they respawn, but not for some time. You can probably finish the whole stage before they respawn again. If you're focusing on them, they're not terribly difficult to kill. Easier than trojans, I think.

As I said before, if you have a bomber, vana's mace is no problem. But if you don't, I'd advise to never be too far above Vanaduke when you don't know where he's facing. Use the camera to your advantage when possible, it makes dodging the mace both possible and infinitely easier.

If you're engaging the Trojan's, using Heavenly Iron, the buff will do a bit less to you, because it (likely) won't inflict shock. It's easier to not get in close-encounter situations with Trojans rather than get out of them though. They're slow and easy to dodge with mediocre reaction speed (Be cautious if you're lagging), and shouldn't really be facing you & close to you very often.

Slag lunges are probably their only deadly attack. Or, maybe, their only attack that actually hits anyone. Relatively speaking, it's fast and fairly damaging. Using your shield effectively is your best defense against slag lunges in my experience, but it depends on your internet really. Both dodging & shielding is more limited the more you're lagging. Alternatively, you could keep your distance and pew pew from afar.

~Sev

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 22:18

Darkbrady

I assume by "bullet hells",

I assume by "bullet hells", you mean the fire that falls from the sky when his mace hits the ground?

I took it to mean the mask phases, with all the wee orbs of interruption and chucking blocking. Could be wrong, but just wanted to say~

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 23:39

Fradow

I don't agree with Severage

I don't agree with Severage for armor/shield. You said you have problem with the bullet hell. Those bullets deal elemental damage. Overall, on Vanaduke level, there is normal, elemental, fire and stun. The zombies and slags should be dealt with first to not be a bother afterwards.

Therefor I advocate for Vog and GOS. Also, the ASI bonus of Vog is better in my eyes since it also serve a defensive purpose. If you are confortable enough, switch GOS for BTS.

As for weapons, your elemental sword of choice is a given for the first slot. My preference still goes for DA since there are so many zombies. As a second, Combuster to have zombies ride the whole charge.

For the second slot, I am definitely partial to Blitz Needle, since it allows to OHKO Trojans and is the best weapon against Vanaduke if you are not solo (if you are, take a more mobile gun). Works better if someone carry Shivermist, but you CAN do Vanaduke without a Shiver. Just be prepared to dodge a lot and don't launch charges before being sure to not get hit.

And really, that's all you really need. I've been running FSC with that exact setup since I came back and don't feel much need to have anything else.
If you have some spare weapons/trinket slots :
- Shivermist is great to have. It allows you to do the bottom left room alone without trouble, overall have less trouble with Trojans, and succeed Vanaduke more easily if no one else is shiverlocking it.
- an elemental gun is also great to have. Your call here, my favorite is AP since I don't like Polaris because it's not team-friendly.
- DVS can be a solution to bullet hell, and was the weapon I was using when I had 4 weapon slots. It destroys the mask faster than anything else, and still retain a very high mobility (contrary to the Blitz which is often used for example).
- A gun damage trinket will let you OHKO trojan all the time, along with making Vanaduke a little faster
- A sword damage trinket will let you 4 hit Rovers instead of 5 with DA. I think it also means one less hit against zombies, but not sure about this one.

As for skills you need to know/improve/perfect :
- dodging. If you dodge well enough you can take more offensive shields (BTS or SSB according the rest of your gear)
- for heavy swords, the "side-step" (also works with other swords, but more useful for heavy) : you can take a step between the 2 swings of the combo
- mainly for Blitz, the 2 charge tricks : charging without doing a normal attack, and repetitive charging.
- shield bump. Do I need to include this one ? It's useful anyway. Also, when NOT to shield bump.
- shield cancel. You should be proficient with that already.
- if you charge with swords (sealeds, brandishes), remembering that the slash do huge damage, and that you can often land a subsequent swing before the knockback start to apply (especially DA). Sniping is not an effective use of those charges.

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 02:14

Xxpapaya

The papaya suggests somethings...............

Best to go with armor that defends you from shadow attacks...............well the only armor which gives weapon buffs as well as shadow defense (that isn't from the shadow lair) is really the gunslinger line (shadowsun slicker and stuff). I usually just go with my Polaris and Blitz Needle. Personally I don't recommend the FoV but rather the Combuster. Due to the oilers (you know, the lichens that set themselves on fire), the FoV can be more of a hazard than a help since it can set the oilers on fire with its normal attack. The Combuster on the other hand can only do so with its charge (which is kinda a good thing in fsc)
Some people say that Valiance "bullets" get blocked by Vana's fireballs at his last few phases, not sure if thats true or not..............

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 03:09

Severage

@Fradow:

I see I mistranslated what he meant by bullet hells.

If you're having trouble with Elemental damage and fire on Vanaduke's boss level, then do as Fradow says and use Vog.

Personally, I believe Vanaduke himself to be one of the easiest (if not the easiest) part of FSC with a Shivermist + Blitz, which almost everyone has nowadays. He rarely gets a chance to attack, and as long as you have someone dedicated to watering the mask, the "bullet hells" are but an inconvenience.

If you find FSC easy, and only Vanaduke hard, then go with the defenses that protect you best where your weaknesses are. Unless you're soloing though, I see no reason to need elemental defense.

~Sev

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 06:26

Bopp

sources of damage

Correct me where I'm wrong, but I think that these are the sources of damage in FSC depth 28:
* normal: Vanaduke's mace, slag guards
* piercing: none
* elemental: mask phase fireballs, Vanaduke flamethrower attack, falling debris, shadow fire?
* shadow: slag walkers (zombies)
So it seems to me that Thinslayer wants more normal and elemental defense, definitely not more shadow defense.

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 15:03

Thinslayer

Further info & help

The AP is actually my favorite gun in FSC, too. When I carry it, I sometimes find myself using it exclusively, so maybe I should aim for a gunner set in the future.

Yeah, I find FSC kind of easy, though about half of the time I die at least once in it, and have never completed it solo. Do you guys have any shield-bumping tips, like when it does and does not work, and when to and not to do it? I don't use it nearly often enough for my own good, and when I do use it, it's often by accident.

@Bopp: there are Oilers and Wolvers as sources of piercing damage. Of the two, only the Oilers actually pose me any problems; their homing attack still surprises me at times. Also, I believe Trojans offer some shadow damage (though I could be mistaken).

My Glacius charge works wonders some times. I still wish I'd gotten a Combuster, but I'm not suffering; I appreciate the tactical opportunities offered by freeze.

Regarding elemental vs. shadow defense in FSC, I theorize that elemental defense is only useful if I'm going into the Vanaduke fight, but shadow is more useful everywhere else.

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 16:06

Bopp

right, but

Thinslayer, my damage breakdown was specifically for depth 28. I took your original post to mean that depth 28 gives you the most trouble, so I commented on it only.

In the rest of FSC, it's still a toss-up between elemental and shadow protection. In my experience, fire protection is as important as either of those, too. And we might as well mention that spikes do piercing damage. A lot of this depends on how laggy you are, and whether your teammates are killing trojans or luring them into attacking you. ;)

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 16:22

Fradow

For shield bump, here a few

For shield bump, here a few tips :
- of course, it won't work on an enemy which is frozen or in a corner. It may works against an enemy against a wall, depending of the angle.
- be wary of pushing an attacking zombie during a trojan attack. It may come right back at you
- do NOT shield bump if you already dodged an attack (unless you are a gunner). It will just make you run needlessly.
- do NOT shield bump if it's going to hurt a friend instead
- DO shield bump to avoid getting hit yourself or a friend. The advantage of shield bumping instead of taking the hit is that it won't damage your shield. It's especially useful to be able to use offensive shields, or to face multiple mobs which would otherwise destroy your shield.
- DO shield bump to regroup mobs, or put them out of dangerous place, including spikes, fire traps, revive totem
- do NOT shield bump if it's going to make a friend miss a charge (especially Blitz Needle).

All that are general more or less obvious tips. A good practice is to take SSB during a run. You're going to learn very fast to shield bump if you don't want to die. Or at least a less defensive shield than what you are used to.

In my opinion, concerning elemental vs shadow vs fire, fire is by fire the most important. Then probably elemental, just for Vanaduke. I am used to run FSC without any shadow protection and don't really feel the need to get any. On the other hand, the few times when I put a Mad Bomber part on, I heavily regretted it. Seeing that you are experienced, I'm not sure you need shadow protection. It's more for people who begin FSC run and still have trouble to reach Vanaduke.

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 19:33

#10

Darkbrady

It comes down to whether or

It comes down to whether or not you need shadow defence or not. Arguably it's more important for zombies, but since they're easy to never get hit by, more experienced players often find it a waste of a defence, since the damage they take is usually normal from trojans, elemental from puppiess/vana. The few mobs that pierce make it almost not worth it to have at all.

I agree about fire bein' more important than either, though. fire does more damage on average than actually being hit. Although the same as shadow defence is arguably applied; once you get the hang of it, you can run sets like Mad Bomber without any worry. I actually used Mad Bomber as my first runs into FSC ever so it got me practiced into avoiding getting set alight, which has made me feel invincible when I use sets that actually have fire res. It's akin to using the Swifty (as Fradow suggested) to teach yourself shield control.

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 21:02

#11

Thinslayer

Seerus Mask + what armor?

So, maybe I should start practicing FSC with my SSB. I think it'll be good for me.

@Bopp: When I lag, I lag badly. When I don't lag, I get great performance. I'm typically good about avoiding spikes, so I think the shadow fire and elemental grates will be more problematic. And, if I lag into zombies, no amount of shadow defense will really keep me alive anyways. Yes, the boss battle itself does give me the most trouble, but there are places in the rest of FSC that I'm not exactly stellar on either, so I can't dismiss the levels entirely. But I think elemental defense will be my best bet for the boss run, and when I'm lagging. I'll take a Seerus Mask on my runs.

But what armor should I take to complement the Mask? I'm thinking Vog for the sword ASI (considering that I almost always take a sword), but maybe Fallen would be better for the gun ASI and a little shadow defense while sacrificing more of my elemental defense. I could take one of the gunner armors (when I get one), but then I'd sacrifice half my fire defense.

I'll be taking a DA and AP on non-boss runs, and depending on the party, Blitz or Shiver with CIV on boss runs.

Thu, 11/01/2012 - 00:30

#12

Severage

@Thinslayer:

I don't always lag, but when I do, I lag badly. lol.

Personally and in my experience, I don't like to split my defenses. I either like to use Elemental or Shadow, and avoid one or the other primarily. Fire resistance is definitely not a must-have, but if you have trouble with the so-called "bullet hells", or igniting on occasion, I'd highly recommend it. Fire does an insane amount of damage, especially when inflicted by traps and Vanaduke, which does ~8 seconds of fire without resistance. So...based on what you've told me, I'd use Seerus and Vog.

"I'll be taking a DA and AP on non-boss runs, and depending on the party, Blitz or Shiver with CIV on boss runs."

I like those weapon choices.

For shield bumping, Fradow covered most of it. I'd add that shield-bumping is useful if you find yourself unable to dodge a zombie lunge. You can oftentimes block their lunge before they finish it, like when they're in mid-air. Just be careful where you do it. If there are allies around the lunge damage will happen somewhere in between the recoil the zombie took and where he was recoiled from.

I said before I used the Deadshot Set, but I mostly use that simply to get MAX! ASI/Undead damage on my AP (It has a UV). I don't have OCH; if I did, I'd use a mask of seerus. As a free player, I don't invest in gear that I don't explicitly need, so I haven't made any Elemental Defense gear either. I made Deadshot a really long time ago, before I ever went to FSC or knew about it much. T3 was taboo to me back then.

Case and point, Deadshot is just a convenient set for me to use. If I invested in a new set (and got OCH), which is unnecessary at this point, I'd use Seerus + Shadowsun/Justifier/Vog armor.

Hope I helped some,

~Sev

Thu, 11/01/2012 - 07:32

#13

Bopp

probably not Fallen

...maybe Fallen would be better for the gun ASI...

I see your point, but don't overlook that fiend damage penalty on Fallen. Trojans are fiends. I'd go with Vog Cub.

I'll be taking a DA and AP on non-boss runs, and depending on the party, Blitz or Shiver with CIV on boss runs.

I'd take Blitz over AP on all runs, except those runs where you intend to solo Vanaduke (if any).

Thu, 11/01/2012 - 13:52

#14

Severage

@Bopp:

Not sure why you'd ever take Blitz over AP unless you're the designated Vanaduke/Trojan slayer. Blitz is terribly inconvenient to use in all cases except charge attacks on those two enemies. Having multiple blitz needles on Vana can be useful, but I'd only do it with 4 people since it's unnecessary otherwise. Really depends on your party though.

~Sev

Thu, 11/01/2012 - 14:05

#15

Bopp

because I use almost only swords ;)

I should have been clearer. I was describing my own style, but my style might not be optimal for the original poster.

When I'm in a party, I bring Blitz in case people want me to Blitz trojans. But otherwise I never use any guns at all before depth 28. (I use Combuster on almost everything. When I'm solo, I prefer to kill trojans using Final Flourish.) So AP is of no use to me whatsoever in FSC, unless I'm soloing Vanaduke himself.

Thu, 11/01/2012 - 14:22

#16

Fradow

You would take Blitz over AP

You would take Blitz over AP for 2 reasons :
- you already have a DA to take care of everything else than Trojans and Vanaduke
- Blitz outdamage AP anyway.

On the second affirmation, I want to really prove my point, so here is the data, using the wiki for damage and Lancer Knightz data for shots/charge per minute : http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lancer_Knightz_%28Guild%29/Handguns

So, assuming that you always use normal shots with AP (since its charge is not very good) and always use the charge of Blitz (since the normal attack is not good), and that you have a medium in each ASI and CTR (data is missing for no bonus) and no DMG bonus :
- AP get 26 shots per minute, at 143 damage per shot (upper range) against undeads (that's the highest possible), for a total maximum of 3718 damage per minute
- Blitz get 14 charge per minute, at 2865 damage per charge (all bullets hitting, 191 per bullet) against undeads, for a total maximum of 40110

The Blitz gets a maximum of more than 10 times of AP. Even if half your bullets go to waste and you spend half the time not attacking, you are still way ahead of AP being spammed.

You may argue about overkill on zombies. It's not that high in the first place, especially in 4-man party, although I can't say for sure because I'm not aware of any data on mobs total health.

So the only thing left is wheter you are able or not to handle it. Being primarily a swordie, I still use the Blitz somewhat often on zombies, especially lonely ones, since it's faster than bashing them with DA. I bet I'm not the only one.

Thu, 11/01/2012 - 14:42

#17

Bopp

NEVER LEAVE AGAIN

I'm so glad that you're back, Fradow.

Thu, 11/01/2012 - 17:34

#18

Thinslayer

Maneuvering!

You know how some parts of FSC pit you against insanely large hordes of zombies in absurdly small rooms? There's that one room in particular with the health pad behind blocks in the top left corner and a small-ice vial generator in the top right. If you kill all the zombies first, you can end up with three trojans at once, plus the usual zombie horde nearly doubled. The maneuverability offered by the AP is almost invaluable there, and when I'm in that room with it, I use it almost exclusively to run rings around the tight crowds. Otherwise, I'm stuck having to knock the zombies back or attempt to bump them. Staying still with the Blitz is often suicide for me (2-3 trojans charging!), and I survive better with a sword in comparison.

Re: Fallen:
I have a Blitz lvl10. If I equip a full fallen set, can I still OHKO Trojans with my Blitz? I don't remember offhand what UV I have on it; I think I said CTR low in the OP, but it could have been ASI low or Fiend low. I'm only allowed to play about one day per week, so I don't remember the details on my equipment very well.

Thu, 11/01/2012 - 20:07

#19

Severage

@Thinslayer:

If you can OHKO with a full fallen set with a Blitz charge or not depends on how many people are in your party. I doubt you'll be able to OHKO a trojan with it with Fiend Damage Reduced VH with 4 players.

@Fradow:

With Deadshot, I have Undead MAX as well as Handgun ASI MAX, so my numbers are a little bit higher than yours. Besides, raw damage is less important than never getting hit. I get hit much more often firing blitz than AP. My AP (depending on the stage of FSC) does ~170 damage a shot, and a bit faster than normal (The shots don't shoot too much faster, it's mostly the reload speed that you get from ASI that adds up).

You also may forget that AP can hit multiple targets with a single bullet, particularly against hordes of zombies, where you can hit 2~3 easily per bullet.

~Sev

Thu, 11/01/2012 - 23:41

#20

Fradow

Yes I know FSC. Actually I

Yes I know FSC. Actually I just did a run using mainly Blitz Needle (I am too used to switch back to DA so I ended up using DA quite a bit too tho). For that one room, I forced myself to use only Blitz. While I got hit a bit (I'm not that good with Blitz), I didn't die and it went without a hitch. If you end up with 3 Trojans, you should solve that problem first before thinking about weapons. Bumping mobs is part of the gunner role. Most experienced gunners mastered the art of bumping without blocking using SSB.

There was also another person in that run that used mainly Blitz, and she told me it's not all that rare to see people use it on zombies.

As for "I survive better with a sword in comparison.", that's my first argument actually. A pure gunner would take an alchemer to fight hords of zombies (actually there ALSO was a pure gunner, and that's exactly what he was doing, with Blitz for Trojans/Vanduke). From a swordsman perspective, in FSC there is no reason to take AP over Blitz, since you already have an elemental sword.

@Severage I took those numbers for the sake of comparison, as well as having reliable data (the wiki only have no DMG bonus data). Note that with Undead Max, AP damage will drop since its DMG vs Undead Med will go to waste. Also, Blitz will benefit from both CTR and ASI, while AP will benefit only from ASI. And I totally forgot that all weapons have a +2 CTR when they are heated to 10, so actually the comparison I did is unfair to Blitz.

I know about AP being able to hit multiple targets, though I don't remember ever hitting 3 per bullet. Even if you manage to hit overall 1.5 zombie per bullet (that already seems high to me), the comparison still hold true due to the insane damage potential difference.

Thu, 11/01/2012 - 23:44

#21

Darkbrady

Aye, in FSC I use my blitz

Aye, in FSC I use my blitz more than most other guns (unless I'm alch-switching) purely because it simply kills faster than anything else. CTR time included, the overall kill rate goes through the roof. You can destroy a single skelly or lay it into thick crowds. Even on the last room in D26 with all the fire and trojans, you can still use blitz to tear through the crowds before they even reach you. Tried and tested with plenty of weapons, the blitz just clears them so much faster, even solo.

Full Fallen is negative VH, so you'd need two trueshots to bring your damage back to baseline alone. Solo you may still be able to, but don't expect to succeed with parties.

Fri, 11/02/2012 - 14:14

#22

Severage

@Fradow:

Um, Deadshot has two Undead Mediums. That equals VH. AP has Undead Medium. That equals MAX. Not sure where you're getting that AP's damage is wasted?

Anyway, I still prefer AP's mobility over any 'potential' damage Blitz will do. Though I do see your point if you're already using DA to not use AP, but actually I think that's a reason TO use AP. If you're running around with two heavy weapons, and run low on HP, you have to be really evasive and will likely die. Carrying one light and one heavy weapon has always worked to my advantage.

I can understand if you're good with Blitz and are able to dodge everything to use it, but as a universal precaution, regardless of someone's skill, AP is simply safer to use.

~Sev

Fri, 11/02/2012 - 14:39

#23

Fradow

@Severage oh, I thought you

@Severage oh, I thought you had a damage bonus Max vs Undead without AP. Well, it was just to emphasize that the bonus on AP can goes to waste if you use other gun that don't have this bonus and go on DB Max. Not that you should do so, since it would be more useful to go Max CTR and ASI before doing that.

You can use AP for its mobility, sure, that one thing I generally advise actually. It's just that overall, I find Blitz to fill better the second slot with an elemental sword. But both are viable. Depends what you are looking for. The OP seemed experienced enough to run Blitz to me, and that's what you should try to do if you want to improve (because it forces you to have a better awareness, as well as being faster).

Fri, 11/02/2012 - 16:26

#24

Darkbrady

mobility over any 'potential'

mobility over any 'potential' damage Blitz will do

As much as I agree with you in concept that sometimes mobility is key, the fact that you're highlight "potential" implies that there's a situation where AP will match/out damage Blitz. I just want to emphasise how vastly unlucky that will ever, ever be. Sometimes that APs mobility is worth more than Blitz, but Blitz will virtually always massively outdamage AP making it a very difficult choice to dismiss, especially because the sheer overkillitude of its damage can arguably make mobility redundant in many situations.

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 00:04

#25

Severage

@Darkbrady:

I don't highlight potential because it can be outmatched by AP, but rather because it's easier to have a Charge Attack interrupted than an AP bullet. Fradow gave best-case scenarios for both weapons, I just wanted to highlight that best-case scenario is less likely with a Blitz. Not that it's impossible or out of the question, or that AP could outdamage it.

The reason I don't use a Blitz, do be perfectly honest, is because of a few things...

1): CTR over ASI. I have no sets that give CTR, and CTR UVs are ridiculous to get.

2): I already crafted a Plague Needle under the false assumption that a poisoned target would take nearly the same damage as a Blitz would deal. Unfortunately, I was dead wrong. The damage difference is very noticeable. It was calculated some time ago (Don't have the link) that even in the insanely best case scenario of a Plague Needle + 3 Blitz Needles, 4 Blitz' would out-damage it.

3): I'm F2P, so another set of gunner gear for CTR, the mask from OCH, CTR UVs, and crafting a whole 'nother 5* weapon that is another version of one I already have, are basically out of the question and/or a waste of resources.

And, finally, because I have become so fond of AP's mobility and don't like slow weapons generally, as well as the fact that everyone and their mother uses a Blitz as it is, makes making a new one unnecessary.

~Sev

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 00:31

#26

Darkbrady

Fair 'nough~

Sat, 11/03/2012 - 00:38

#27

Fradow

@Severage "I just wanted to

@Severage "I just wanted to highlight that best-case scenario is less likely with a Blitz"
I also highlighted this, even with only 25% of the attacks (active 50% of the time, missing half the bullets, seems like a more lifely scenario), Blitz still have a large margin (more than 2 times)

Here is the link you were looking for : http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/35702 post #30 Not sure if it's still up to date.

Well, case closed for me. Everyone have its reasons.

Sun, 11/04/2012 - 11:45

#28

Thinslayer

More testing

I'll have to run some tests with AP & Blitz to see how well I survive with them. I don't like the Blitz very much, since I value mobility, but maybe I just haven't given it a serious chance. My next FSC loadout for the tests will be Fallen, Blitz, & AP. I'll join a party of 4 and try the Blitz 1) against Trojans and 2) as my main weapon. I'll let you know the results.

Sun, 11/04/2012 - 12:14

#29

Darkbrady

With max CTR it's entirely

With max CTR it's entirely possible for Blitz to be the only weapon you use in FSC; the zombies drop like flies around it. Idk if this is feasible solo mind you, but I'm sure someone, somewhere has found out.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 00:17

#30

Eykay

I've got the best loadout...and Im willing to share it with you!

Hey,

Ok before I say anything WTF dude, you wasted like a whole day typing up your info or what? :P.
Alright jokes aside, here's a loadout im willing to share for the FSC :) well it's not really MY loadout,
just the best equipment :D. Alright here we gooooooooo:

Helmet: Vog Cub Cap
Armour: Vog Cub Coat
Shield: Grey Owlite Shield (Purely because of its high elemental defense and high fire resist)
Weapon One: Divine Avenger
Weapon Two: Blitz Needle
Weapon Three Shivermist Buster
Weapon Four: Something from the Brandish line, A Warmaster Rocket Hammer or a Polaris, your choice :D

Remember if you don't have three or four weapon slots DONT SWEAT.
Just take a DA or if you dont have one something from the Brandish line (5* version) and
a Blitz Needle. That should be all you need to cruise through the FSC and vana :D

Hope I helped :)

Thundr

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 00:40

#31

Darkbrady

Short of having VH UVs on all

Short of having VH UVs on all of your weapons, that build must be agonisingly slow to use on all fronts.

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 01:16

#32

Severage

@Fradow:

Ah, incidentally, you made that post. How convenient.

Thanks.

~Sev

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 13:08

#33

Thinslayer

Test results

Turns out my Blitz had a UV Fiend Med on it, so my tests with Fallen were skewed. However, I could only OHKO Trojans if every shot hit. I expect killing them at range would be easier with fiend bonuses. Using it as my main weapon was agonizing. It's most useful in tight spaces with no room to swing a sword.

@Thundrbolt: it only took me about half an hour to type up. I don't take the Rocket Hammer because it doesn't look good with Gold Rose Regalia. :-P

Thanks for your help, guys.

Search

FSC loadout advice