Spiral Knights - Requesting Advice for an Unorthodox Setup

Requesting Advice for an Unorthodox Setup

14 replies [Last post]

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:27

Laraso

So here is my setup:

Helm - Ironmight Plate Helm
Armor - Ironmight Plate Mail
Shield - Ironmight Plate Shield

Weapon Slot 1: Sudaruska (Up on the mouse wheel switches to Valiance, down on the mouse wheel switches to Callahan)
Weapon Slot 2: Callahan
Weapon Slot 3: (Empty, reserved for any extra weapon I might want to bring along)
Weapon Slot 4: Valiance

Trinket Slot 1: Elite Quick Strike Module
Trinket Slot 2: Elite Quick Strike Module

(I didn't even know that I basically had the same gear that Izola had until I started to complete missions. Needless to say, it was rather awkward whenever I saw him wearing completely identical equipment.)

I know my armor and weapon selection is terrible, but I enjoy using them and have developed a workable strategy with them. The melee ASI trinkets cancel out the ASD caused by the plate armor. My strategy in PvE mostly consists of taking a swing with the Sudaruska, shield canceling, switch to Callahan, shoot, shield cancel, switch to Sudaruska, ect. ect.

The Sudaruska does good damage and knocks enemies back far enough to make the followup Callahan shot safe. Through this process, I am able to deal non-stop consistent damage (the Sudaruska and Callahan have about the same exact attack speed and do nearly identical damage to most targets), while stunning, interrupting, and knocking back all monsters almost simultaneously. Due to the Callahan being a gun, I am also able to attack multiple enemies at once. For example, I could hit a group of Gremlin Thwackers with the Sudaruska, then switch to Callahan and shoot a distant Gremlin Mender before it has the chance to heal them. Against groups of enemies, the Sudaruska's charge attack seems to be extremely effective, causing 800+ damage with huge knockback and the chance to cause stun against many enemies at once (the most enemies I"ve hit with one charge is 15). The Valiance is mainly used to deal with gun puppies, as well as jellies, both of which prove to be the biggest obstacles. The Callahan works fine against Howlitzers though, and it interrupts their attacks which makes dealing with Howlitzers very easy.

This strategy works wonders solo in PvE, although it is rather inadequate in Lockdown. I can still use the setup somewhat effectively, but I have no real ability to play offensively. I usually just choose Defender and stay behind my team while stunning enemies with Callahan and discouraging recons and enemy gaurdians with the Sudaruska. When I'm facing an enemy alone, my only real hope for getting a kill is to stun them with the Callahan and then rush in and finish them with the Sudaruska. That works fine, however it can be tricky to hit the enemy with the Callahan, so more often than not I never get the chance to stun them.

I've been trying to get a good ASI UV on the Sudaruska through Punch (for the purpose of being able to play more competently in Lockdown), but all I've been able to get are low enemy specific damage bonuses.

What I want to ask, is whether or not an ASI UV would be worth putting on the Sudaruska, and whether or not I should consider choosing a different secondary gun other than the Valiance. Any additional advice or input beyond that is also appreciated.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:39

Little-Juances

Sudaruska is simply outclassed both in speed and damage potential by Divine Avenger/Gran Faust.
So is valiance agaisnt some well used alchemers (preferable voltech and shadowtech).

Of course UVs will help you if you already enjoy your current set, but there are better easier-to-use options out there.

For example, you say you use the sudaruska to push enemies then finish them off with Callahan when alone. Had you used a GF and some damage bonus, a single combo is enough to kill gremlins/jellies, making the knocback and your gun irrelevant.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:42

Laraso

Yes, I understand that, but I

Yes, I understand that, but I still like Sudaruska better. Part of why I enjoy it so much is that it handicaps me, artifically making the game more difficult. I enjoy challenges.

As for the UV's, I was wondering if an ASI UV on the Sudaruska would be of much help, considering how slow it is already. Would it cause any immidiateley noticeable differences in attack speed, or is the weapon to slow for ASI to be of much use? i.e., would a damage UV be preferable over an ASI UV for a weapon such as the Sudaruska? I never really bothered much with UVs before, so my knowledge on them is limited.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 19:42

Little-Juances

There isnt much to discuss, one UV is better than no UVs. If you enjoy challanges, you might want to get an Iron Slug.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 20:45

Bopp

elemental gun

Well, if you do want an improvement to your equipment, then consider replacing Valiance with an elemental gun. It's not that Valiance is bad; it's just that you could be doing more damage. Use your Callahan against fiends and beasts and gremlins; use your elemental gun against undead, constructs, and slimes. In particular, you seem to like slow, heavy attacks, so you might find delight in charging an elemental alchemer.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 10:20

Darkbrady

That setup will kill your

That setup will kill your soul without UVing your weapons. You'd need to use Swifty or get ASI UVs on your sword and use damage trinkies. Keeping a med:asi zero:dmg Suda will simply take forever. I'm all for Suda Loadouts and if you enjoy this, by all means, but I can't imagine this doing much more than causing irritation at how slow kills are.

As for your question about ASI, definitely. I use Suda in LD with max asi and can get 10~15k damage. The difference is phenomenal. Don't get me wrong, Sealed still swings faster, but from zero/neg ASI Suda to vh/max, you'll notice the difference. Damage is the next thing on the list; you'll need it to get those 1k+ charges landed easily.

Also, I'd advise ditching the shield and replacing it with Swifty/BTS for more useful bonuses. Piercing defence is not that important in the CW and won't be as much benefit to you in the end, as bonuses for your weapons.

As for secondary gun, you have a few options. Valiance is good for a basic, normal, all round and fast shootiness. You can also consider Polaris for turrets/KB, the autogun lines for charge damage/KB/status spread or an alchemer for precision status spread.

Tue, 11/13/2012 - 22:10

Fehzor

1. Switch the ASI trinkets for one bomb and one sword (or two bomb, if you don't mind less suda charging) CTR ones

2. Ditch your guns

3. Pick up electron vortex, ash of agni, voltaic tempest and venom veilor

-----------------------
But Fehzor, everyone hates you and wants you to die! Why should I do these things?

My understanding of armor, is that there are offensive pieces (in 2 flavors- offensive and very offensive) neutrally defensive pieces (that buff defense entirely, but not offense) extremely defensive pieces (that buff defense and kill your offense) and there are specialized armor pieces (which are situational, but often best for that situation.) For now, we will pretend that these are balanced despite Nick hinting to Tsubasa that he agreed with Her in their imbalance.

What you're doing right now, is using 2 extremely defensive pieces of armor... and trying to compensate for their downfalls. Specialization helps you win the game- if you use one piece of vog and one piece of ancient, the net gain will be OK defense and a net gain in stats of zero. But this will be worse than if you'd used vog with one piece of neutrally defensive armor.

Vog + Volcanic Plate Armor < Vog + Owlite Armor

If I want to use attack speed increase as my "good stat" then I'll benefit attack speed increase with weapons that utilize attack speed increase. If I'm bringing an argent peacemaker, I won't waste bonuses on charge time reduction for handguns. If you're going to ditch a stat to buff another, don't try to remedy it. Try to buff other stats instead... and plan accordingly.

When you go out to fight, don't just spam suda swings. Instead, electron vortex should be your first reaction, followed by a suda charge. If you're in a situation with few enemies, suda charge. CTR UVs on suda are not THAT expensive at med, so that might be worth looking into.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 08:05

Bopp

"Owlite Armor"

By "Owlite Armor" do you mean Magic armor, or the Grey Owlite Shield?

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 12:15

Laraso

Darkbrady wrote: "med:asi

Darkbrady wrote: "med:asi zero:dmg"

Um, I'm not entirely sure what that means. Zero damage?
Also, I was already considering getting a Swiftstrike Buckler, but I'm in the process of making the Armor of the Fallen set so I'll save that for later.

Kills aren't that slow, whenever I alternate between the Sudaruska and Callahan as I described in my original post. True, they could be much faster, but it isn't unbearably slow.

Also, how much do you think I'd have to spend on Punch before I got an ASI UV?

@Fehzor:

Your suggestion is too radical of a change. Ditching my guns entirely and switching to only swords/bombs is not something I can see myself doing any time soon.

Also, my bomb arsenal lacks any good bombs. My best bomb is the Radiant Sun Shards, if that says anything. I have the 3* Graviton bomb, but not the Electron bomb.

I understand that wearing an armor set that lowers attack speed and then putting trinkets on to cancel it out is a bit silly, but I didn't have much choice considering I have no other armor sets.

What do you consider "Suda spam"? I rarely finish Sudaruska sword combos. I usually end them after the first swing with a shield cancel, unless I'm certain that the second swing will be beneficail.

----------

The goal I have here with this setup is to be able to cause as much stun, knockback, and group damage (not necessarily simultaneously) as possible via the Sudaruska and Callahan, while remaining agile enough that my offense in Lockdown isn't completely gimped.

The speed at which I attack is currently adequate for PvE and the setup is able to fulfill its purpose there. The Sudaruska and Callahan combination, while underpowered, gives me versatility in the way they work with each other:

If I'm fighting gremlins, I can hit them with the Sudaruska, switch to Callahan and shoot the mender before he can heal them, which also interupts him and knocks him down. Then I can switch back to Sudaruska, hit the other gremlins again, and switch back to Callahan and shoot the mender while it's getting up from the last shot.
If I'm fighting greavers, I can shoot them with the Callahan, interupting them, and then knock them back with the Sudaruska. If the shot stuns them, I have more than enough time to shield-bump them away and hit them with a charged Sudaruska, which often kills them in one blow.
Simple things like that.

I should reiterate that this setup was originally intended to be used solo in PvE.

My main problem, however, is Lockdown. Everything becomes a spacing game where I sit and wait for someone to approach me so I can knock them back with the Sudaruska, because there is little more I can do than that. This is the reason why I'm trying to get an ASI UV on my Sudaruska, and partly why I'm making the Armor of the Fallen.

EDIT: I have seriously considered, on many occasions, of switching the ASI trinkets to Damage trinkets. The purpose is so that instead of trying to make up for my slow swing speed, I would be boosting my damage enough so that swing speed hopefully wouldn't be much of an issue. I'm a bit cautious about trying this though. Is there anyone who has tried a damage boosted Sudaruska that could attest to its effectiveness?

EDIT 2: Sorry for my massive walls-of-text. I type very fast and I often end up writing large amounts of text like this before I even realize it.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 12:28

Darkbrady

zero:dmg is just having no

zero:dmg is just having no damage bonuses. A tank set with ASI trinkies and a tank shield would result in such a situation; with Suda, you really, really want those damage bonuses.

Getting ASI from Punch would kill your soul; much better off just ragecrafting.

Also, I can't see why you'd switch to your gun for the kill; I just shield-cancel Suda swings, maybe toss a charge in on a vortex~

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 12:43

#10

Laraso

@Darkbrady

-Double post of amazingness-

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 12:42

#11

Laraso

@Darkbrady

The reason I swich to the Callahan is because shield canceling the Sudaruska by itself is too slow.

I can swing once, shield cancel, then swing again, but for whatever reason it acts as if I did a full combo and will refuse to let me swing or shield for a few moments.

If I instead switch to Callahan, I can attack right away and do nearly the same damage, without having to wait to be able to attack again. Also, the Callahan stuns enemies on normal hits, unlike the Sudarsuka which can only stun on charges.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 13:41

#12

Darkbrady

You're not shield-cancelling

You're not shield-cancelling properly if it's finishing the combo. Try holding shield down for just a half second longer and it should rectify that problem. I have found that slower swords seem to need a bit longer of a shield to properly cancel, whereas Brandishes and the like respond well to a lightning fast cancel.

The "nearly the same damage" is what's troubling me. Suda should be putting the Calla to shame with normal swings; I'd strongly advise you get sword damage in one form or another. Even a BTS+one trinky would suffice.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 16:23

#13

Laraso

@Darkbrady

Well, I say nearly the same damage, because the enemies I find myself fighting the most (fiends and beasts), are weak to peirce.

So my Sudaruska is doing it's normal 250-something damage on a normal swing, and the Callahan is doing about 202 damage.
Against gremlins and undead, the Callahan does less than half the damage of the Sudaruska.

In Stratum 6, my Sudaruska can do well over 1,000 damage with a charged swing, totally surpassing all my other weapons in raw-damage.

Also, I tried what you said about shield canceling, and to my surprise it was just as you said. I'm an previous Calibur user, and my time with the Calibur gave me muscle memory associated with canceling faster blades. I guess I'm just going to have to re-learn the timing with the Sudaruska.

Wed, 11/14/2012 - 16:46

#14

Darkbrady

I'm glad it worked out for

I'm glad it worked out for you then! :)
Suda is one of those weapons that requires some practice to get along with (whereas once you learn Brandish, you use most 3swing swords, for example) but it works out in the end. If you find yourself able to get in the 2nd swing, I usually go for it just for that extra bit of damage.

Either way, you should notice a remarkable increase in overall dps with that bad boy, because with shield-cancelling and asi vh+, you can get hits off pretty quickly.

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Requesting Advice for an Unorthodox Setup