Do you ever grow tired of shutting down idiots?

If you do, do you ever grow tired of being tired? (Sorry, just had to add that IT'S SOME KIND OF GIANT ROBOT OR SOMETHING quote in there XD)

@Senshi:
"It's not impossible to beat a hammer without one, but it's not an equal match either - you have to have -more- skill than the hammer-user to beat him half the time. If you have equal skill you will lose most of the time. Hence Pay-to-Win."

I'll agree with that much, at least.

@Red:
Still too stupid/self-involved to get the point? It wasn't a show-off screeny to inflate my ego, (I'm a bomber, remember; my best games don't get good results because I'm too busy winning to worry about scoreboards) it was a point. All you can seem to see is the damage, whereas I was pointing out merely that you don't need clone gear to achieve good scores; nerf gear works as well, thus furthering the point: "equipment is only the beginning". Vog+Suda can still get high/top scores in matches, even against Heart Clones with DAs, and you roll Fencing Jacket and DA and get 18k+, which further proves the point that equipment isn't that important.
But ofc you're not actually reading any of this, are you? Just thinkin' of the next way to best explain how you're pro-er than someone who only plays swords every 1 in 50 matches, when I don't think I've ever seen you play anythin' but swords.... /eye-roll

Also DA =/= Suda. Not even close. Seriously, don't compare the two in LD, Suda is nerfed to hell. I can relax on my recon w/ my DA and get 15k+. Gettin' 15k w/ a Suda takes effort.

Couldnae read that ....at all. Mixing quotes in with your regular paragraph without anything more definitive than italicising them honestly just confused the hell outta me.
Although, I think we agree anyways? I mean, we must do, otherwise you wouldn't even have bothered mentionin' fencin' jacket.
Anyhoo, you're right, it is off-topic.

Anyhoo:
-No AT? Aye, takes more skill, although I still reckon the dashing around is what makes people the most confused, and you can do that AT oor not.
-OP? By all definition it is clearly OP, but it's not OP in the sense that nothing can stop it. It's powered more than it needs to be, but is still manageable.
-Since it's p2p, it probably won't change. DR was only nerfed because that was disgustingly OP and beyond all measure.
-Invincible? Actually removes invinci frames, so am with you there; although it is easy to survive. Seriously, I've never played hammer with anythin' other than Vog and my life expectancy is actually pretty decent.
-Doesn't automatically allow you to do it, but allows you to do it easier than with your GF.
-It will disorientate most players. People experienced in countering hammers won't be, because the hammer is predictable, but the fact of the matter is that the dash is what gives people trouble dealing with hammers. Ever seen someone just swing without the dash? Would be better with their GF.
-Can't comment on damage as I usually just focus on dashing around in all directions until they die. I honestly don't even aim for them or try to hit, they just eventually stop being alive from the random hits.
-Hammer most certainly is easy to use. Not to master I agree, but very easy to pick up and use to very high effect with little to no practice or skill. Again, my post from last page? A bomber who hates swords using Vog shouldn't be able to get 15k+ damage for a dozen matches in a row with a weapon he's never used before. That pretty much defines "easy to learn".
-The average playerbase sucks? I guess, coming from an elitist, that must feel true in perspective. But for the people not interested in the metagame, it's annoying having a weapon that's so clearly and obviously above the average playerbase.
-Being killed by the person who mastered the hammer? Sure , that statement is completely true, but it's irrelevant to the discussion. People aren't complaining that a pro striker has mastered the hammer and can kill whole teams. They're mad that a total sword noob like myself could pick up a weapon they've never used before, waltz in blind...and kill the whole team anyways. "mastering" the hammer only lets you kill people who're experienced at countering hammers which is, again, not the majority.

TL;DR:
Hammer is unique and fun, but most certainly, clearly, undeniably and obviously OP. At least it's not unmanageably OP though, and some practice/skill can train you to counter it and allow it to just become a nuisance more than anything.
Either that or I'm secretly a swords legend in the making and have just been wasting my potential by screwing around with bombs.

Aye, my point was that I'm not a swords legend in the making; I completely suck with swords. I'm well aware of that, it's why I don't play them. But if someone who sucks with swords can pick up a specific sword and dominate a game, then it's the weapon that's exhibiting OPness, not the player skill. Seriously....you still don't get what I'm sayin' with this? I'm not as egocentric as you are, I'm not saying this to show off or make you think I'm awesome; I'm saying it for precisely the opposite reason. Pay. Attention. /facepalm.

You need to make up your mind, y'know that? You keep sidestepping my point to make your own, irrelevant one. The average playerbase does not suck; they're just inexperienced. But anyone that gets killed easily by a hammer sucks.

Problem is that most players get killed easily by a hammer. Thus the rage against it.

So...are they just inexperienced or do they suck?

Not that it matters tbh, because it's irrelevant whichever it is; the issue at hand is that they're the majority. It doesn't matter that you may be able to fight off hammers; the average playerbase has a lot more trouble dealing with them than they should.

And "it doesn't disorientate them, it's just too unpredictable" is kinda my point. Pick a word, I give up trying to speak your language. Fact is that dashing around the place causes problems for people, whether that be because of unpredictability, disorientation, confusion, sorcery....it causes people trouble and allows the hammerer to get easy damage in on the target, while surviving/dodging attacks with very, very, very little effort on the hammerers side. Whereas a good teethpicker clone actually requires some degree of skill or they'll just get killed.

It's a skill required to use vs effective damage results ratio, and it's way off.

If you ask me, the reason everyone thinks the hammer is OP, is because nobody has figured out a way to avoid/over power it yet. This is mainly because the attack pattern of the hammer can be very unpredictable indeed. The dash can let a player turn 180 degrees and travel a fair distance, it also damaged anyone who is in the way. Staying outside of that distance will keep you fairly safe. Most people who use the WRH are like raging bulls (red bull ^^) If you step out of the way the hammerer is screwed due to the time it takes to finish the attack sequence. In a way, hammerers are the player version of those big [papaya] slags in FSC. They come charging at you before you can blink, but if you avoid that you are well off (unless of course they have a second weapon in store for you, maybe a Polaris :P).

Yes, it does take some skill to use the hammer. But much lower than other weapons.............

Again, there is no such things as "spamming in the game". If you don't agree, I can give you a very clear definition of what spamming is, right here, on this thread.

This is still up????!!!!!
[saving this post for future screenshot]
al right. I will settle this for ever. (not likely)
I will do a match with one weapon, Hammer. then I will do another Match with only a Leviathan Blade.
Then you guys can compare.

Actually it's the single best anti-dps-bomber sword there is, imo. Boost in, swing with the hammer, dash back out at insta-speed to avoid the bomb det. I can get strikers with blast bombs, but a good hammerer is essentially impossible to hit/kill with dps bombs because he can attack you repeatedly while never actually being in the det, and seemingly never running out of boost due to spending more time dashing than boosting.

As for hazes, they're stopped as much as any other weapon, but the concept works the same when you catch a bomber who's just about to start hazing. Never actually had a hammerer against me when I'm using vortexes, but I imagine that'd stop them nicely.

Although I do agree that a hammer is a great sidearm for bombers, as it lets you run out of your haze, hit someone then dash back into safety and start charging a new bomb before the haze clears, letting you get hits in safety between your haze spams.

Bombers bring more than just one haze ;)

He should have brought Shivermist. Then you would have had some issues ;)

Who do people post threads about reasons they fail in Lockdown? ._.

@Feller

And exactly who are you?

Hammer's OP but so are Flourish, GF, and Polaris and Skolver.

Also, we should've gotten rid of the invincibility frames. It makes everything so much more diverse.

Killing people with a hammer isn't any harder than killing people with a toothpick, gun, or Winmillion.

Rage moar.

lolwut

" toothpicks aren't OP? explain why everybody uses them"
Again, learn to read. I said they were less OP. Still very OP.

"oh wait, the hammer CAN'T KILL YOU IF YOU USE IT INCORRECTLY, OMG! IT MUST MEAN THAT A GF CAN SHOOT OUT FIRE AND KILL ME IF I USE IT INCORRECTLY!"
Ok, so you're able to miss people with a sword. You've made an impressive point there! I'll keep that in mind!

"you said "GF can kill you if you use it wrong, but hammer can't"
I responded by saying that I dashed into a bunch of hazards.
you, being a smart-bucket (lol @forum police) said that the HAZARDS killed me, not the hammer.
I countered by saying that if I shoot you with a gun, it isn't me that kills you, but rather the bullet.
you say that the hammer shoots fire around me and kills me."

You said that since you could run into hazards with the hammer, that made it dangerous. You can do that with anything, it's not some premier balance technique. Kill yourself all you want, it doesn't prove anything.
I didn't say the hammer shoots fire and kills you, you're just rage-reading or something. If you shoot yourself with a gun, you killed yourself with a gun. If you jump off a cliff while holding a gun, doesn't quite count.
When I said "because the fire comes out of your hammer", I was being sarcastic, because nothing from the hammer kills you. It dosen't curse you, it doesn't shoot you, it doesn't shoot darkfire at you. You just managed to walk into dark fire while holding it, and suddenly it's a "balanced weapon!"

earlier you wrote "Toothpicks are more dull and repetitive than cheap and OP."
now you write "Again, learn to read. I said they were less OP. Still very OP."

so what is it? you seem conflicted :O

I think your reading comprehension could use some work.

Being more dull and repetitive than cheap and OP, but still being very OP, simply means they are very dull and repetitive. It doesn't mean, by some magical logic that is beyond my mind to comprehend, that he's saying they're not OP.

It's simple 'A > B > C therefore A > C' logic. Just because A > B doesn't mean C doesn't exist, or that A < C. What kind of logic are you making up?

@Psycho: Also, hammer dash was insanely OP without the invincibility frames.

@Orangeo:

"Kill yourself all you want, it doesn't prove anything."

Hehe...hahaha. I like that one.

~Sev

Actually I don't think that'd be a great idea...

The only saving grace a Guardian has when fighting Strikers after his shield is broken are the invincibility frames. Without 'em, any Guardian would easily be out-ASI'd by a Striker.

~Sev

Probably what I just did.

I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

Oh, except DVS and WHB might, maybe, in some slight way, be useful.

~Sev

Weapons that would become more useful from removal of invinciframes:
-Cutters
-Spurs
-Caliburs
-Fang of Vog

-Antiguas
-Autoguns
-Catalyzers (for some reason, still useless during invincifree week?)

-Shard bombs
-Dark Rs

-Teaming up on someone

Oh, wasnae sayin' that you were't; I was just explainin' my first post about it; just that automatically jumpin' to "blitz was OP" is a bit unfair to use as an excuse to say that the removal would be inherently bad because of that. Especially when we have a lot of weapons that are totally nerfed by invinci frames, such as antiguas, DR, cutters etc, that aren't ohkos.

Anyhoo~

DVS could be pretty scary, but no more so than antiguas or anythin' are now, as the damage is pretty low (although I guess it'd increase by 50% off the bad from the phantom attack) but their main usefulness is in their interruption, more than damage. Removal of invincis would just make them a bit scarier.

@Zeddy:
Troikas as well. Their second hit on the charge gets gimped by invinci frames. This could be OP, as it's already pretty easy to get groupkills with Suda on CPs, so doubling the damage output would make it crazy lethal....buuut since it's Suda, slow and this relies on a charge attack, which is tricky to aim and very slow, I reckon it'd remain balanced.

@Sev:
Caliburs charge attack is like FoV, aye. It has three hits in the charge, and invinci frames basically gimp that to one hit makin' it pretty feeble to use in LD.

HAMMER STORM

HAMMER JUSTICE

HAMMER HAMMER HAMME--

NO SCREW THESE HAMMERS

MJOLNIR IS THE BEST HAMMER EVER!

"Forgive my ignorance,"

No.

Actually, I normally get two hits, unless they're at the edge of my range.

What's good is that you can wedge yourself into a mob that was following you and let loose, sending everything flying before anything can lay a claw on you.

So I usually just kited them and smacked them all away, kiting them again.

Times were good when enemies were such idiots, and I could solo in peace...

Times change.../sigh

Speaking of, I've always thought how odd it was, and perhaps in need of some manner of revision, that FoVs and Combusters are the best swords to use in FSC.

Anyone else find that weird? Combusters don't burn enemies, so they don't stop them in the middle of the 6-burst charge attack - enemies ride the wave. FoVs, on the Slag Guardians on Vanaduke's last phase, are strong on them, burn them (What?), and do a buncha damage.

Yet ice weapons slow the run down...although they provide the "safe" utility, they drop DPS.

I no understand SK logic.

~Sev

@Zeddy:
I'll try test it later, but every time I've ever seen, they'll only taken the one hit from it. Keep in mind that two hits is well north of 1k damage with max sword damage, which is the equivalent of getting hit by 2~2.5 GF swings; it would kill basically any who's already taken damage, and I can assure you that people can quite easily survive troika charges. Annoyingly so, in fact.

@Sev:
Well it's not in the same field as using AoA in FSC as opposed to Stagger, where it's just utterly contradictory and pointless. Just happens to be a coincidence that they're the best ones for the job.
As in, they'll still be equally good in any dungeon, for all the same reasons; nay, they'll be better for spreading fire as well. Their statuses just aren't ones that actually slow you down or cause problems against fire-immune enemies. Similarly, Pepperbox is a total beast in FSC as well. It's only ignored because Blitz has disgustingly high base damage and there' only a handful of targets that are strong against pierce.