sorry, could not resist, and it seems like you are struggling with vanaduke because i can have a team with no shivs or blitzes and take care of that tubby, it seems like you want him to be made easier, he is not broken, he is the final boss(not including shadow lairs) and should be difficult to an extent, if anything he should be harder so that people cannot just blitz/shivv rape him, also about the fiery orbs, why should they phase in? that is just too easy, you know they are coming, just be careful.

The original post, at least.

Not saying vana is too hard, but he become unreasonably easy with some weapon sets, and absurdly difficult with others. Most bosses are around the same level of difficulty no matter what weapons you bring, provided that you brought something that does the right type of damage. These type of nerfs would be intended for the average people, not those who actually understand how Vana works. For example, you can't shiver snarby in place, or stagger JK to death.

I highly doubt anyone NEEDS vana to be easier if they stop and look, but a vast majority of the people I see in Vana parties have to be carried along by someone who does know all the tricks.

has anyone tried shiver/firey pepperbox on JK? regardless that it would die in about 5 charges anyways.

"The warning sign already exists in the form of glowing floor; shadow fire will randomly spawn near areas lit up. Stay far away from them."

I've yet to see any connection between floor glow & fire placement, as far as I can tell Shadow Fire just spawns wherever the hell it wants and the rubble is just to conceal the fact that it has no spawn animation.

As a seasoned T3 player from 2011, I'm fully siding with Zeddy. The point I see behind these changes isn't about whether Vanaduke can be beaten easily or not, but moreso to improve the gaming experience (and block off tactics that make him less of a boss). Whether someone can do it in Proto or not is completely irrelevant to this.

I'll post more later today, including analysis of each suggested change, but that's the gist of it.

So no, don't close this up.

if you cant do it, get better. vana dont even wort speding any ce in revive , your first time at vana? get 3 people who already have blitz and shiv

You've just COMPLETELY ignored the first and most important point of this entire topic. Go to the OP, read it again.
BTW Zeddy is one of both our senior Spiral Knights, both ingame and on the forums. Your patronization is offensive.

@Draycos even tho vana is totaly beatable , i agree about the watering glitch and vana flame thrower . i disagree every nerf people want about blitz and shiv about van exept the flame thrower , since there people stupid enough to blitz vana right in his face , there a way it can also afect smart player if vana spawn 8 flame stream in every direction , wich will please the "shiv" nerfers whitout making vana to break the icing established mechanics wich players like me count on at many dungeons like vana or coumpond 42 or ghost in the machine where an rediculously huge amount of monster spawn in a too small area

as for your responce to no blitz/shiver , vana is supsoed to be a joke like the twins or jk or snarby when you have the gears for
(brandish normal hit spam for insta twins round kill , toxic vaporiser or poison vial with curse vial or faust for jk and hunter blade / shield spam at snarby)
yes i admit feedback would help new players at bosses but they shouldnt be nerfed at all, on your first fight you will be swearing and crying (i spent over 80 ce on my first jk run i remember a years and half ago). now i beat jk in 7~30 seconds ...

shadows lair is the place for nerfed wepaons and buffed weapons ,the normal bosses are supsoed to be at least beatable on the first try wich mean experienced player see it as a joke. but shadows lair is ment to be hard even after many tries , with an over amount of monter , even closers area with rotating damage pilliars and such and the bosses now have resistance and other type that they where weak at. making the bosses you did once wich where complicated and now totaly easy , a whole new chalenge. plus the rewards in cr + the access to a confined craft machine for players who made it trough totaly worth the 450 cr , and if you have all the armors from sl like i do , the materials (exept the ice queen one) when wild + the cr of the run totly repay the 450 ce needed for the key

as for what said about cutters line and the others , no i see perfect balance on them , yes they do less damages and less efficient satus, but yet they have alot of flinch , easy to shield or knockback effects wich make the quick kill you had to do to the enemy you where afraid he kill you totaly armless even tho you have to spend a little more time bashing him , wich those weapons are no use on heavy monster spawning area , because you have to get rid as much monster as posible in the less time posible or otherwise they will get you cornered / surrounded

weapons planing / armor planing <-> dungeon / saved loadout for situation or bosses

i saved myself so many times vs bats spam with dread venom or hunting blade where barb blade or barb bomb where totaly useless and didnt lands the hits at all.

TL:DR
__________
i agree about mask glitch and flame thrower buff
i disagree any nerf on blitz/shiv and all buff on vana else than flame thower
shadows lair is buffed and imune version of what you looking for

I'm just frustrated at the overall uselessness of so many weapons against vana. All other bosses can be defeated with pretty much any gear. Snarb isn't difficult with pure bombs, just clumsy. But you can defeat him with any set.
Jelly King, anything with a good charge attack that can deal normal or bonus damage against him will thrash him, as will AoE weapons. Things like all the alchemers, Pepperbox, all bombs, all guns with the exception of piercing, most swords, especially brandish, faust and nightblade. If you don't have these, he's a bit of a challenge, but still feasable.
Roarmulous twins are rediculously simple with any gear, the only thing that's tricky about it is the mid phases while waiting for the right rocket locations. Any weapon can be used during the vunerable phases simply because you're not getting flattened by maces when you're attacking them.

Vana however, is near impossible with ALL weapons save for a select few: Autogun Line, Elemental Alchemers, Pulsars, AP and Shiver. I really don't think this is very fair to people who don't like/own those weapons. I'm not saying we should make him easier, I'm saying we should make him beatable although difficult with other weapons.

I agree, Vanaduke is just too easy with Shivermist Buster and Blitz Needle but with other certain weapons, hes hard as Yesmen.

First time i soloed him was in 4* full Cobalt set, dying 3 times and from what i remember, took at most 45 minutes due to the low damage my Master Blaster did. Every attack from him was deadly, taking at most half of my health.

With Shivermist Buster and Blitz Needle around, hes a pushover. the Bomber can easily freeze him in place and the Bltizers shoot him in the back. the Slag Walkers and Slag Guards can cause trouble if they are not dealt with but can be easily be taken care of in a good party. The Shadow Fire is not much of a trouble but it can spawn right in front of you or worse, right on top of you. If they spawn just right, you can't move at all and die from the Elemental and Fire damage. Vanaduke can bodyblock you into a corner like a trojan and can't be shieldbumped however good partys can avoid this.

Below i am going to suggest things to make Vanaduke the difficulty hes suppose to be regardless of the weps you bring expect for Shadow damage since in phase 5 he becomes immune to Shadow damage. Let's get started:

Vanaduke should be immune to the Shivermist Buster like his Shadow Lair counterpart but can still be frozen by other weapons or the Vial that inflict Freeze.
Like i said above, you can easily freeze him in place and the Blitzers can shoot him in the back again and again with no harm. With this added however, Vanaduke will be harder and teamwork will be needed more to bring him down as Vanaduke can charge, smash you or send flames of fire at you at will. However he can still be inflicted with freeze from other weapons such as the Ice Brandish line or Freeze Vials.

If Vanaduke takes too much damage at once or in 5 seconds. (let's say 1000?) then he will go into a rage where he will smash his mace into the ground at faster speed over and over in random places.
This will increase the Shadow Fire spawn rate rapidly (None in phase 1) as every smash will break the overhead supports. The number of swings he does in this rage depends on the phase you are in. Phase 1: 3. Phase 3: 5. Phase 5: 7. This is deadly as you will have no idea where he will swing, the smashs will also do more damage in this rage. the rage will end once he finishs swinging madly. This is to discourage players using the Blitz Needles charge attack unless he/she and the party want to take the risk. He also cant move while doing this.

If Vanaduke is frozen then he will perform a AoE attack that hits all enemys within 3 blocks of him, friendlys (Slags) are not affected.
Vanaduke will also use this during the fight but it is much more powerful if he uses it when frozen. This is like the Fang Of Vogs charge attack only 3 times bigger and more powerful. Since Vanaduke is like a Fire type boss, this charge has no affect on him while players using it can be set on fire. the Fire inflicted is more stronger then Fang Of Vog. The charge up time for this is 2 seconds regardless of the phase.

Vanaduke should have his Fire Snake attack at the start of the fight but becomes more powerful in later phases.
He only uses this in phase 5 currently, it does no damage but it can inflict strong fire if a player comes into contact with the flames. He should have this at the start of the fight and it become more powerful in later phases. Phase 1: 3 Fire Snakes in front of him. Phase 3: 3 Front, 3 behind. Phase 5: 3 in all directions. Because of this, he can summon up to 12 Fire Snakes at once.

Blitz Needles charge attack should have it's damage decreased to the point it cannot OHKO Trojans in a full party without Damage Bonus.
However, it can still inflict enough damage to make Vanaduke go into his rage. This is also to make Firestorm Citadel itself harder as it is a pushover in a good party making teamwork needed more to take down Trojans.

While fighting Vanaduke, all Elemental and Normal damage weapons will get a buff that increases their damage.
This is to encourage players to use other guns or swords then the Blitz Needle or other more used swords. Storywise: just before the fight, the Sprites you met eariler back in Charred Court will show up and bless your Elemental and Normal weapons with nature itself, increasing their damage. They will also glow green and have a green aura around them when held out. Attacking Vanaduke with these weapons have a chance to place a debuff on ( which lasts a certain time and becomes shorter in later phases) him which will make him take more damage from Normal and Elemental damage.

Vanaduke should have a different Targeting AI then other monsters.
Monsters in this game will attack the player that did the most damage to them, Vanaduke should have a different one, such as:
-The player with the most/less health.
-The player with the best/worse gear.
-The player doing the least amount of damage to him.
-The player killing his minions.
-The player clearing the Shadow Fire.
-Change targets randomly.

If too much Shadow Fire is cleared within 10-30 seconds, Vanaduke will surround the water fountains with Shadow Fire for 30 seconds
The fountains will be completely surrounded in Shadow Fire, making it impossible to get the water from them until the Shadow Fire is gone unless a player is holding water when this happens, allowing you to clear one of the fountains without waiting 30 seconds.

Some of the things i suggested can cause issues such as huges amount of lag but i will let the community discuss that.

I think that's enough, i want to see what you guys think. i know there will be agreements and disagreements but i wanna see everyones opinions. I think i added too much stuff to make Vanaduke harder but i'll let the community discuss about that.

Vanaduke should have a different Targeting AI then other monsters.

This is probably the only point I strongly disagree with. Spiral Knights has a lot of hidden MMORPG tactics and elements that make the game fun to play and rewarding for people who know how to manage aggro and the like.

Shards don't work on RT.

Pff.

"Vanaduke should be immune to the Shivermist Buster like his Shadow Lair counterpart but can still be frozen by other weapons or the Vial that inflict Freeze.
no , new people are ignorant (not in a bad way btu meaning that they have no idea whats coming) wich mean a little shiver will prevent them to get maced in the face at they very first try because they might just simply bash / shoot vana in the face. wich will also make fire apear everywhere and even if 3 player are pro and 1 is new , if the new guy go in front of vana and spawn fire everywhere . there is chance that a ce revive bein needed"

Shards don't work on RT, bombs don't work well on Snarbt/RT, Battlepods may be on a gap, so swords suck, ect. And there's the fact that noobs ask forumers and check the wiki constantly on how to beat him. Also, trial and error is key in this game, and several others. making strategies in the face of defeat is the rule of life.

"for experienced players , they made dark vana only freezable with vials ... only ... try to make 1 vial free count for 4 blitz ... does not work"
Ever heard of other strategies? I mean, before Shive/Blitz was popular, people used other ones. Infact, oldRSS was a tactic.

"If Vanaduke takes too much damage at once or in 5 seconds. (let's say 1000?) then he will go into a rage where he will smash his mace into the ground at faster speed over and over in random places.

no , but i would agree with a 360 flame thrower spawn"

Why not? Explain.

"there is already a rage kid boss that goes mad when you make him loose his crown"
So? There are two bosses that are mostly invicible unless x happens.

"Vanaduke should have his Fire Snake attack at the start of the fight but becomes more powerful in later phases.
i agree with this one
and vana rage already , that the point of the fireballs"

Neutral.

"If Vanaduke is frozen then he will perform a AoE attack that hits all enemys within 3 blocks of him, friendlys (Slags) are not affected.
that cancel the main request that people want about vana bein able to mash him more with sword than gun , does not affect blitzer because they are too far"
Blitzers have pitiful range in comparison to other guns. Hence why blitzers can't be as effective without shiv.

"Blitz Needles charge attack should have it's damage decreased to the point it cannot OHKO Trojans in a full party without Damage Bonus.
no , you might see it this point at fsc , but in heart of ice and other missions when you have 12489712 develites around + trojan spawning , you might want to gonna get rid of the big guy before this get messy"

Use other weapons. Dbb, Magnus, heck shiv them and group.

"While fighting Vanaduke, all Elemental and Normal damage weapons will get a buff that increases their damage.
and then everyone will complain about hammers , polaris , leviathan and fov for bein as buffed as blitz"
Neutral

"Vanaduke should have a different Targeting AI then other monsters.
sure , why not , it would make the blitzers unaware if they are the next and calm the complains somehow <- it mean i agree"
Neutral

"If too much Shadow Fire is cleared within 10-30 seconds, Vanaduke will surround the water fountains with Shadow Fire for 30 seconds
i would see it diferently (at phase 4 and 5 , there are 1 fireball turning around the water fountains)"
Too easy, but neutral.

EDIT, WHat I did.

SOLUTION , DELETE VANA , REMPLACE WITH FIRE JELLY KING ... BRILLIANT

also i have both dread venom and hunters blade , with sexy (fiend vh + construct vh) on both of them

regulars or layofers(scarfs,)

@Draycos take shiver , put it back in inventory , take ash of agny , keep going :3

Remove the ability to revive comrades.

Damn, with your suggestion I'll never be able to do FSC again.

I found it funny Zeddy offers suggestions on changing Vana's boss fight, as Shiv + Blitz is the preferred method which, quite simply, makes Vana very easy... and people jump down his throat claiming he's not good at the game...

Anyhow, looking at the very first post; let's look at the points.

Before respawning, fireballs should "fade in" through some kind of blinking animation, warning players to get out of the way.
I've never really had an issue with this. Namely because I've never really been in a party that's bothered getting rid of those balls. A warning, however, does sound idle. Especially for lag-ridden players, like myself.

Vanaduke's dash can easily become unavoidable during phases 3 and 5, as the fireballs surrounding him will catch the players and often trap them.
I've found this to be a real problem. Quite a few times, Vana's dashed towards me without me noticing him (say, he's below me). With the fire balls around, getting away from Vana once the dash is over is troublesome. Usually resulting in Vana doing a lil' dance over my dead body. If the balls must stay as they are, might I recommend you don't stop moving while your shield is up when one slams into you?

Take some damage; can still escape without major harm.

Shadowfire, when first spawned, should give a five-second "graze" period before they actually become capable of harming and blocking players.Shadowfire isn't all that problematic when you can see it. You just get that nervous feeling of walking into one when all that smoke is above the floor. Worse still, that rage moment when one spawns in you, and you can't move. So, I agree with this.

Rewatering the mask should just refresh its downtime.
Long since overdue. With lag, you try to lead in your timing. I have, on many occasions, thrown a matter of milliseconds prior to when I should have.
The most annoying part is when a timer appears when the mask is on fire. As if the game is looking at you with an evil grin saying "You can't hurt me, or water me for 3 seconds because your timing sucks! Ha!"

Shard bomb shards should be able to spawn inside Vanaduke instead of just spawning right outside his range or disappearing.
Not a bomber. No comment.

Vanaduke should just smash the ground in anger to spawn firetiles when he's shivered.
I'm not sure about the fire tiles thing. I'm thinking what about some sort of knockback pulse that pushes players to the edge of the room? Blitzers get a smaller window, Shivvers have a harder time keeping him frozen. That, and being pushed into a fire tile would make positioning critical too.
________________________________

@Quakeman:
no , new people are ignorant
So, you're basically saying that new players should have a fool proof strategy; while experienced players should use a tougher method?

You do realise having a fool proof strategy available means experienced players who want easy cash are just gonna use the easy way, right?

the 5-second 'graze' period seems too long to me.
I do have to admit the suddenly respawning fireballs are a dick move, as is the ability of Vanaduke to trap you in his fireball shield.

@Quakeman: New people are not necessarily going to have the knowledge to bring Shiver.
There are other ways of reducing Vanaduke's danger other than Freeze (shock horror), like Voltaic Tempest/Stagger Storm, which are the reason why I generally tend to save up Shock and Stun vials before the fight.
I have a bunch of other things I could also add about your comments, but I think I'll abstain.

generally people who have done it before like to go with other people who have done it before.
Ergo, if someone is in a party and is using sub-optimal gear, quite frequently more experienced players will try to avoid going with them for whatever reasons - they're short on time, they want an easy run, whatever. Hence, the newer players with less idea of what to do will end up lumped together.
Voltaic and Stagger is the Shock-Stun combo which works better than Shiver in some respects; you don't need to worry about the status breaking at an inopportune moment.

just got an idea?

how about the fireball disapear after a hit on a player or a shield?