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Zopy's Shield Ideas: Sword, Gun, and Demo Shields

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Mon, 02/11/2013 - 23:25
Zopyros-Il's picture
Zopyros-Il

You know what we desperately need? More variety of buffs. And new shields. Namely shields for the two under-loved weapon classes.
Well obviously we need more than just that, but that's all I'll be touching on today. Using the unique more aspects of the three weapon classes, I'll be pitching new ideas for a shield that goes along with their playstyle.

Gunner Shield- Slinger's Cross
A small buckler resembling a crosshair, with bullet casings adorning it's sides. It could even have the crosshair line up in front of the Knight's eyes as they're blocking so it looks as though they're aiming.
It would have Shadow defense, since the majority of projectile attacks in the game are Shadow element based. Also Fiends and Kats tend to close distance VERY fast, making Shadow defense an even greater asset to ranged Knights. Granted it's overall defense would have to be on level with that of the Swiftstrike Buckler to compensate for some of the power that this shield might afford.
Shield Buff: Magazine Clip Increase
Low: 2*, 3*, and 4* - One shot increase
Medium: 5* - Two shot increase
Aside from its range, one of the more unique aspects of the guns in SK is their clip. While not a tremendous game-changer, having these breaks in firing helps to balance the guns against each other. It could even be used to make certain guns viable with this shield and a Gunslinger set-up.
The biggest balance change that I want to go along with this is to change a few of the gun's clip sizes to help balance them more. Pulsar and Autogun lines should have only a ONE bullet clip, necessitating the need to reload without this shield. Doing so would reduce their spammibility or outright overpoweredness. It would stop other weapon specialists from carrying these weapons around for their "ease of use." Plus, less Pulsar spam means less flashy, party-blinding lights and less lag!
Problems, however, are that the Magnus lines wouldn't see much benefit from this unless they could fire faster overall. And the Antigua and Alchemer lines may become OP with such a large clip with their current power, so nerfs of some sort may be needed for them (not that they didn't need a tweak of some kind anyway).
Catalyzer could see some benefit from this if it's normal shot and charge shot were reversed. Normal shots would build explosive charges onto an enemy, while the charge shot detonates these charges. With a bigger clip, more charges could be planted more quickly.

Demo Shield- Blast Plate
An average sized buckler with lit fuses running along it's sides. Its face would resemble that of an angry Bombhead Mask. Could also have small bombs from the bomb bandolier accessory decorating it.
This shield would have Elemental defense and Shock resistance to help negate one of the more dangerous status effects to bombers. It also gives them a bit of protection against Gremlins (who also love their explosives) and MechaKnights, who can be pretty aggressive at times. Similar to the Slinger's Cross, it would have to have reduced defense, but not to the same extent since Bombers have to close distance more and defense is pretty important up close.
Shield Buff: Explosion Radius Increase or Fuse Time Reduction
Low: 2*, 3*, and 4* - 1 block radius increase or 15% time reduction
Medium: 5* - 2 block radius increase or 33% time reduction
Not being a bomber, I can't say I have the firmest grasp of the best new buff to give to a shield oriented for that style. Still, from going through the forums and running with bombers a lot, I think either of these would be pretty beneficial.
Bombs' most unique aspect would have to be their AoE effect. Increasing it to catch more enemies would be great, especially with the status inflicting mist bombs. Plus, it makes bombs that have a smaller blast radius more viable.
The fuse buff may be a bit more tricky, since most bombers know their bombs and how to set them up for optimal explosions. Plus it makes it harder for allies to bump enemies into the blast range if there's an even shorter amount of time. Then again, it could bring use to bombs that have an absurdly long fuse time.
P.S. And for Vog's sake, fix the broken Shard bombs already, OOO! The Bombers are really running out of patience with that matter.

Swordsman Shield- Blader's Lantern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lantern_shield
While sword users already have the Snarby shield, I don't like how much that thing stands out like a sore thumb against nearly every other shield in the game. Keep it in the game, even let it keep it's effect (just make a Gunner and Demo equivalent PLEASE), just don't make that the only shield for dedicated sword users.
Like the Snarby shield, it would have Pierce defense, since these enemy types are supposed to be more of a threat up close... emphasis on "supposed to be." You could run at most Tier 3 Pierce enemies with Proto armor and still come out unscratched with how "difficult" they are. :|
You could give the shield no defense at all, and it wouldn't make much a difference at this point.
Shield Buff: Combo Damage Increase
Low: 2*,3*, and 4* - Final hit damage increase 15%
Medium: 5* - Final hit damage increase 33%
The most unique aspect of the sword (that too many people make no use of anymore) is that of the final stroke of the combo. That hit packs such a wallop on most swords that it usually interrupts most enemies. It seems to already carry a multiplier of some sort on it's damage output, but I can't be certain if it's a multiplier or a set number without tearing the game apart or extensive testing. Anyways, giving a boost to that final hit would really make some swords more useful and also make swordies more careful about carelessly swinging away. They'd want to make use of that powerful final hit more.
Hopefully this would bring more people to the Troika line, so they can make use of that simple, powerful 2-hit combo with the shield's added damage bonus. Plus if the Spur line were made to have an extremely powerful third-hit, it could finally have its place with the other swords (and maybe even a 5* version!).
Though, the Sealed and Brandish line would still probably see more use due to their ridiculous charge attacks and damage types. /sigh

********************

That's my idea on bringing more shields and unique buffs into the game. The numbers could use some adjusting, but they're not the important bit here. Let me know what you think of the shields and their buffs. Do they work or not? Got a buff idea of your own? Post it!

Sure, weapon-type shields could do with just an Damage Bonus buff for their weapon, but that's BORING. Add new life to the game and add in new options! I'm tired of the same old stuff, day in and day out! Bring in more varied content! Give us stuff to mess around with while we wait for the Battle Sprites!

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 00:03
#1
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

I wish I could write a review for this but I have seen all of these done many times and they taste like twenty consecutive Neapolitan ice cream bars in one sitting. I guess one more should be alri- Why am I eating ice cream in the middle of the night?

"Gunner Shield- Slinger's Cross
Low: 2*, 3*, and 4* - One shot increase
Medium: 5* - Two shot increase"

Increasing clip sizes is easily a huge problem in this game when it stands as a pillar to a stable weapon. Antiguas have a six shot clip, Autoguns have a two shot clip. Pulsars and Valiance line both have a three shot clip but one will obviously have a problem even with one more shot per round while the other is just alright. I can see you trying to make the clip bonus situational to give more or less depending on the gun which should have been a dead giveaway how imbalanced this kind of bonus can be. If it becomes a generic clip size increase then Autoguns, Pulsars, and Alchemers become even more overpowered with Antiguas not far behind. If it becomes a situational bonus that only gives +2 clip to certain guns then it becomes a balance compensation when the real problem is with the guns themselves.

"Demo Shield- Blast Plate
Low: 2*, 3*, and 4* - 1 block radius increase or 15% time reduction
Medium: 5* - 2 block radius increase or 33% time reduction"

It took me four minutes to figure out what I want to say about this before getting into what would be wrong with it since people ask for this so often. People ask for it a lot, I appreciate asking for something that helps bombers, but in the end the fuse time reduction is like attack speed for bombs (not particularly noticeable since fuses go down in a second or two) and increasing blast radii is unnecessary for 4*+ bombs which already cover a big area. The problem with bombs is not enough bang for the buck or sweet for the sweat. We can already cover big areas. What good does that do us? Those smaller radii bombs you saw were probably 3*- which are supposed to be small for lower tiers where things move around less and move slower which makes luring them into placed bombs easier. Nick and friends have a bitter resentment for bombers which may root in beta when bombs worked very differently than they do now but old habits die hard and Nick likes to see a Venom Veiler stroking his big throbbing Blitz. He said this game was spawned from games he grew up with which probably involved bombs being rare superpower items or difficult to use, which would mean getting frustrated at them often.

"Swordsman Shield- Blader's Lantern
Low: 2*,3*, and 4* - Final hit damage increase 15%
Medium: 5* - Final hit damage increase 33%"

You know, this reminds me of a thread I think I remember and am not imagining about forcing swords to use combos or lose both damage and the ability to use actions. I could just be imagining this but I remember seeing something to combat shield canceling which people have learned to rely on when they realized fighting with a melee weapon involves being in melee range of enemies. Nick and friends admitted shield canceling was not intentional and though I rarely used it since first finding out what it was a couple months after I started this game it always seemed like a crutch to me. Too incompetent to figure out how to time swing combos? Just alternate spamming attack and shield with a sword, it gets the job done without any intelligent gameplay even if it makes Luguiru add you to his ignore list which he never removes names from. Ever.

By the way, lantern shields are dumb and cheap. Flashing light to blind your opponent during swordplay is dirty fighting. Just put the lantern down before stabbing at each other. Swiftstrike is already all the buckler we need in this game if you know how to use one, even if all the fun parts of using a buckler shield would be too overpowered.

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 01:01
#2
Zopyros-Il's picture
Zopyros-Il
Beep Boop

Thanks for the in-depth reply, Lug! I know these weren't the best ideas out there, but I still wanted to try and make unique equipment and buffs for the weapons instead of the cookie-cutter attack up and such. It really did make the differences between the weapons far more apparent, especially with how under- or overpowered some of them are.

Gunner Shield
Halfway through planning this one out I realized what a huge problem the Pulsar and Autogun lines would be with that buff. They're really horridly overpowered and that's why I also tried to suggest changing them entirely and giving them a one-shot clip size. It would be reducing their power in most players hands unless they devote their shield to buffing them. Plus, since shields can't be brought into LD a change like that may save it from the Polaris spam problem. The myriad other problems that plague it however...
I agree that Antiguas and Alchemers with this buff might actually tip them over into Blitz Needle levels of OP. Though at this point I think it's kind of useless to say that they need to be looked over and tweaked when the same could be said of nearly every weapon that doesn't deal only normal damage.

Demo Shield
I really wish I had the extra energy to make Demo stuff so I could better know what I was talking about. :/
But I understand what you're saying about those buffs. They don't really help much against the core of the problem. I'd offer my help, but you, Zeddy, and the other bombers know what you're dealing with far better than me (and sadly OOO as well.)
The bombs I had in mind when thinking about those buffs were the Irontech and Big Angry bombs, since I've never seen them used since one has a smaller radius than the Nitro and the other a longer fuse than Nitro... at least that's what I heard. Hard to find current information on them what with the only sections of the wiki being updated being cosmetics and the swords.

Swordie Shield
Could you link me to that thread if you can find it? I probably had it bookmarked, but I accidentally deleted my bookmark folders while trying to back them up...
And if OOO even admitted to shield cancelling as being something they never meant to be there, why is it still in the game? /sigh
I agree that swords are kind of mindless clickfests and really need more depth. (Why I went to guns in the first place. Just couldn't stand that amount of power for that little effort.)
One thing that swords should do is bounce off of blocked attacks and enemies should block more as well. Why do enemies constantly block bullets, but not a big stupid sword to the face?

Lantern shields may be cheap, but damn if they don't look cool with that gauntlet attached to them. Though I'm not sure if there were many complaints about it being dirty or cheap, since the person complaining would most likely be dead... Just saying.
And bucklers are awesome. While we can't add the best parts of the buckler to the game, it still stands out as a tiny shield. It just reads better in games as having lower defense but with a little extra to it. OOO should make more use of them just for how well they read.

These admittedly aren't my best thought out ideas, but I do still fancy the idea of different buffs than what we're used to. I think it'd still be fun to mess around with these buffs. Hell, they could even be turned into debuffs and slapped onto armors that don't fit their weapon or even to buff other armors and bring them on par with the "better" equipment.

Besides, it's not like the rest of the Suggestions forums are coming up with quality ideas at the moment... *glares angrily at the Tier 4, more ME, faster ME, and other idiotic threads... that people are still replying to?*

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 04:11
#3
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

Does the wiki really list BAB as having the old blast radius? When shard bombs got dilluted, Irontech and BAB had their range buffed to match all the other 5* bombs. Even 4* Irontech Bomb had the fuse buffed up that much! Here's a thread on it.

The lantern thing

I kind of like the ideas, actually. I'd bring lantern shield everywhere for my Triglav in full Chaos since it looks like it would let the final hit in the combo exceed, hell even double, max damage bonus. It seems a bit overpowered, especially with two-stroke swords. Maybe change it to Damage: Medium on the final stroke and Damage: Very High on the final stroke for the 2*-4* and 5* shields respectively. That makes it a shield for Vog users or people using swords as a sidearm, as they would be less likely to have damage bonuses coming from elsewhere.

The clip shield thing

I don't know where either of you are coming from saying that clip increase would overpower autoguns somehow. Blitz would not become an iota stronger even if it had an infinite clip. The regular attack has pitiful damage and no interruption, as well as rooting you in place just as long as the charge attack where you're a sitting, low-damage duck. Would the clip size affect charge attacks somehow?

I would definitely use Slinger's Cross with Iron Slug. Right now, turrets need two slug shots to get interrupted which you need to time right. Being able to fire four shots before reloading would ease up on timing, allow me to do more damage in general and perhaps interrupt tougher things such as zombies. The introduction of this shield should be accompanied by pulsars being nerfed to a two-shot clip, I agree. Polaris interrupts turrets in a single shot where Slug needs two. Polaris can fire off its shots with little movement penalty and timing involved where trying anything like that with Slug leads to a rocket in your face.

I don't know about alchemers. Most gunslingers would continue to switch-shoot alchemers using swiftstrike for an effectively infinite clip of launchable radiant sun shards that do statuses and not care about this shield at all. The introduction of this shield should be accompanied by guns actually having ammo and needing to reload after x shots no matter how you switch your crap around.

The bomb thing
I still want to try fuse time reduction at some point. I can't really think of anything but Big Angry and perhaps Irontech that would be helped very immensly by it.

I also want to try out blast radius increase. Not so much for the already big bombs as for shards. Honestly shards need a radius buff, period.

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 07:06
#4
Arkate's picture
Arkate
Pulsar...You Serious?

You speak like a swordsman. Pulsars...feh. Spammy, annoying, and generally not popular among gunslingers. Good day to you ser.

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 10:26
#5
Zopyros-Il's picture
Zopyros-Il
Beep Boop

@Zeddy
Wow. Honestly never knew that about the bombs. O__O
Since the wiki is so dated about bombs, could we just go on an updating spree and fix up everything? There's so much misinformation there (if there's any information at all) that it would really probably bring more people into bombing if we just took the time to fix it up. I'm planning on doing the same for some of the guns, namely the Catalyzer, once I get the energy for it.

Lantern Shield
The whole power thing with the Troika line was what I was aiming for actually. It's an underused line for how powerful and useful it is. However, the buff would also work on the Sealed line, which due to the damage type and charge are just "better" than the Troika, and I seriously don't want to buff an already OP weapon. Seerusly. The Sealed charges are better at ranged fighting than most guns are.
I really like that set-up you gave. There's probably even more things it could do if there were some way we could mess around with them.

Gunner Shield
It's not that the clip thing would increase the Autoguns' attack power by a lot, but more that enemies don't move as much as they should and that if you know what you're doing, you could quite possibly unload that entire extended clip into some enemies and most bosses before they get to you. That, combined with the already ridiculous damage output (should all shots land) and range of the Autoguns could lead to problems. Even if you're using it for suppressive blind fire against those dodgy Devilites, they'd likely be dead before you have to reload with that extended clip.
Didn't know the Iron Slug couldn't interrupt that well, especially with a description that holds high its supposed stopping power. I think Pulars shouldn't even have a two shot clip, really a one shot clip for that much area denial, knockback, and interruption should be enough.
And I don't know about Alchemers either. Working my way up to a 5* one now, so I'll have to get back on this once I do.

Demo Shield
As I said with Lug, I still don't know what would be a great unique buff for bombs, but these would still be fun to mess around with in the meantime and would give you bombers more to play around with. I mean if they don't exactly work they could always be changed to something else, so there's no big harm in at least trying them.
And I'm really hoping the upcoming updates brings you bombers some love. It looks like we're going to be getting A LOT, so hopefully they touched on the bombs at least a little bit.

@Arkate
Yes, Pulsars aren't very popular amongst 'slingers since there's better options for pure focused damage, but their area denial, knockback, interruption, and generous clip size (plus Polaris' damage type and added status effect) make them a really big annoyance. That goes for if you're fighting against them in LD or have to deal with them in a party. I'd rather not have a constant flurry of flashy explosions throwing about my targets while I'm shooting at them.
And I'm having a great day so far, sir! How about you?

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