Zeddy's and Fehzor's amazing total armour rebalance
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 03:07
I'd make an intro here but I'm pretty sure we all know that SK's armour is in an abysmal state of balancing. Here are the guidelines I used to think this up:
-Offensive armour is too defensive. As a result, defensive armour loses out for not being offensive.
-It is not my intention to decrease the power of offensive armours, they will remain useful for their intended purposes.
-Everything has too much normal defence. I think a system where armours generally have more specialised defence than normal just like monsters do would make it harder to bring the same damn armour with you everywhere without worries. I say we make normal damage something to be treasured. This would also balance normal damage weapons in Lockdown somewhat, although that is not my primary concern and normal would still be kinda blergh there versus having two special weapons.
-Super ultra mega thanks to Fehzor, who went over this with me.
-"8 Defence" means "8 bars of defence, as viewed on the toolbar" while "4 Fire resist" means a Max Fire UV, or 4 lows, or 2 bars on the tooltip. +1 of anything else generally refers to low.
You can read along with the spreadsheet, although all the info within has been copied here for your convenience.
This is the old spreadsheet, which the first page or so of complaints are about.
That dumb generic armour only newbies use
The purpose of the Cobalt line is to be all-around. Right now it just kind of all-around sucks but with my suggested changes...
Azure Guardian Helmet
8 Normal Defence
+2 Fire Resistance
+2 Freeze Resistance
+2 Shock Resistance
+2 Poison Resistance
+5 Health
Look at that utility! You could put this with, say, Chaos Cloak to avoid negative stats at all. That makes for one very good all-around set if you ask me. I deliberately made it the helmet so you can't combine it with, say, Black Kat and Mask of Seerus.
The health is not buffed from previously, it's merely adjusted to reflect a level 10 piece instead of a level 1 as previously.
Azure Guardian Armour
8 Normal Defence
3 Piercing Defence
3 Elemental Defence
3 Shadow Defence
+5 Health
The armour gets defence with the helmet gets utility. This may or may not be a running theme with this re-rebalance.
Almirian Crusader
8 Normal Defence
6 Shadow Defence
+5 Health
+4 Curse Resistance
-2 Fire Resistance
+1 Sword Charge Time Reduction
This is identical to the currently existing set, but with a little bit less fire weakness. I also put Sword CTR on it, a cue taken from Almirian Crusaders and their endless charge attacks.
That armour for furries
Vog Cub
6 Elemental Defence
6 Normal Defence
+4 Health
+3 Fire Resistance
+2 Sword Attack Speed Increase
The nerf is less substantial, now. Compared to the current set, I chopped off about 1 Normal (comparable to a medium UV) and 1 health. The previous state was 4 less Normal and 1 Health. (The armour said +3 but this was because I derped and referenced level 1 pieces. This has now been rectified.)
Skolver Clone
6 Piercing Defence
6 Normal Defence
+4 Health
+3 Freeze Resistance
+2 Sword Damage Increase
Snarbolax
6 Shadow Defence
6 Normal Defence
+4 Health
+2 Freeze Resistance
+2 Poison Resistance
+2 Sword Attack Speed Increase
Rags for the men with no names
Shadowsun
8 Shadow Defence
6 Piercing Defence
+4 Health
+3 Poison Resistance
+2 Handgun Damage
I'm keeping this with no normal damage. As a tradeoff, it has as much specialised defence as the defensive armours, making it very effective at blocking incoming projectiles. I would like gunslingers to chip in on whether or not they consider this a buff.
Deadshot
6 Shadow Defence
6 Normal Defence
+4 Health
+3 Curse Resistance
+2 Undead Damage
+1 Handgun Attack Speed Increase
This one seems like it'd still be better than Almirian Crusader, due to the lack o f
Justifier
8 Piercing Defence
6 Elemental Defence
+4 Health
+3 Stun Resistance
+2 Handgun Attack Speed Increase
Nameless
8 Elemental Defence
6 Shadow Defence
+4 Health
+3 Freeze Resistance
+2 Handgun Attack Speed Increase
U MAD, BOMBAH?
Volcanic Demo
6 Elemental Defence
6 Normal Defence
+4 Health
+3 Fire Resistance
+2 Bomb Charge Time Reduction
It's Vog Cub for bombers. Apparently bombers do not need charge interruption reduction, and it's a pointless, useless bonus. Might as well remove it, in that case!
Bombtastic
6 Piercing Defence
6 Normal Defence
+4 Health
+3 Freeze Resistance
+2 Bomb Damage
It's Skolver, but for bombers.
Mad Bomber
6 Shadow Defence
4 Normal Defence
+3 Health
-2 Fire Resistance
-2 Freeze Resistance
-2 Shock Resistance
-2 Poison Resistance
+2 Bomb Charge Time Reduction
+2 Bomb Damage
And here's Mad. It's got 2 less normal than usual to balance out with all the other reduced class armours, but otherwise it's the same Mad Bomber you know and love, free of worthless bonuses you don't need since you don't get hit and with more defence you'll need instead since you don't get hit. Wait, what?
Mercurial Demo
6 Elemental Defence
6 Normal Defence
+4 Health
+3 Shock Resistance
+1 Bomb Damage
+1 Move Speed Increase.
Nothing surprising here.
Defensive sets
Grey Feather
8 Elemental Defence
6 Normal Defence
4 Piercing Defence
+5 Health
+5 Fire Resistance
+5 Shock Resistance
And here's my new gimmick. Grey Feather emulates the defences of a gremlin. Strong against elemental, okay against normal and piercing, weak to shadow.
Divine
7 Elemental Defence
7 Shadow Defence
+4 Health
+4 Fire Resistance
+4 Shock Resistance
+4 Curse Resistance
+2 Fiend Bonus
Divine is like the last time you saw me rebalance it, but the fiend bonus is +2. I'm a bit worried it's overpowered, but it should be less so now that everything has more normal. You could still pick Grey Feather over this from it having normal and piercing; as well as a bit more shock and fire. Divine also has class armour health.
Chaos
6 Elemental Defence
2 Normal Defence
+3 Health
-3 Fire Resistance
-3 Freeze Resistance
-3 Shock Resistance
-3 Poison Resistance
-3 Curse Resistance
+2 Charge Time Reduction
+2 Damage
Why would you use Mad over Chaos? Because Normal Defence, that's why. Also because Mad has merely -2 while Chaos has -3 to its statuses. Any concerns about whether or not you'll be able to use this if your connection is laggy can be written on a formal complaint letter and thrown in the bin. It's a glass cannon set. -1 to every stat resist for the sword bonuses and snip with the normal defence for the gun bonuses.
U JELLY?
Royal Jelly
8 Piercing Defence
6 Normal Defence
4 Elemental Defence
+5 Health
+5 Stun Resistance
+5 Sleep
Someone actually asked for sleep back. Why not.
Ice Queen
8 Piercing Defence
6 Normal Defence
4 Elemental Defence
+5 Health
+5 Stun Resistance
+5 Freeze Resistance
That puts Ice Queen back to being a no-brainer. There are bigger fish to fry.
Mercurial
6 Piercing Defence
6 Normal Defence
+4 Health
+3 Shock Resistance
+2 Move Speed Increase
+2 MSI should be pretty powerful, so it gets class armour defences.
There's a zombie on your lawn
Dread Skelly
8 Shadow Defence
6 Normal Defence
4 Piercing Defence
+5 Health
+5 Freeze Resistance
+5 Poison Resistance
Nothing special here.
Let's have a look at plate armour again
Ironmight Plate
11 Normal Defence
6 Piercing Defence|
+6 Health
+4 Stun Resistance
+4 Shock Resistance
-1 Attack Speed Increase
Replaced interruption reduction with Shock Resistance. Ironmight has shock, Volcanic has Fire. Now they're balanced. You may think the sheer amount of normal defence going on is a bit much, but that's actually just about what it currently has. Most of these values are.
Volcanic Plate
11 Normal Defence
6 Elemental Defence
+6 Health
+4 Stun Resistance
+4 Fire Resistance
-1 Attack Speed Increase
Ancient Plate
15 Normal Defence
+9 Health
+4 Stun Resistance
-1 Attack Speed Increase
-1 Movement Speed Increase
These are all current values except for the health, which is upped by 1 like the other plate sets.
Pretty skirts for ladies
Valkyrie
7 Shadow Defence
6 Normal Defence
+5 Health
+4 Poison Resistance
+4 Curse Resistance
-4 Fire Resistance
+2 Damage Versus Fiend
Compared to currently, it has 1 more Shadow.
Fallen
7 Shadow Defence
6 Normal Defence
+4 Health
+4 Fire Resistance
+4 Poison Resistance
-4 Curse Resistance
+1 Attack Speed Increase
-2 Damage Versus Fiend
1 more shadow, 1 less health.
Heavenly Iron
7 Normal Defence
6 Shadow Defence
+5 Health
+4 Curse Resistance
-4 Shock Resistance
+1 Damage Versus Fiend
+1 Sword Damage
Unchanged.
Furries but for creatures without fur
Deadly Virulisk
7 Normal Defence
6 Piercing Defence
+5 Health
+4 Poison Resistance
+2 Damage Versus Slimes
This is identical to the current set. I had a thought about it, and I couldn't see why not keep this one set with more normal.
Volcanic Salamander
7 Normal Defence
6 Elemental Defence
+5 Health
+4 Fire Resistance
+2 Damage Versus Slime
Someone wanted to keep the slime bonus on this one. I don't use it, so who am I to argue?
Arcane Salamander
7 Normal Defence
7 Elemental Defence
+5 Health
+4 Fire Resistance
+1 Damage Versus Slime
+1 Damage Versus Beast
It's got one more defence but in exchange the damage bonus is split. Again, this is identical to the current set but with extra health. I had a think about it and I could imagine circumstances where the split slime/beast could be useful. Not many, mnind, but some. Mostly they involved Wild Hunting Blade.
Rawr, I'm a dragon
Dragon Scale
7 Piercing Defence
7 Elemental Defence
+4 Health
+4 Fire Resistance
+4 Poison Resistance
+4 Stun Resistaqnce
+2 Damage Versus Beasts
Compared to the original, it has stun resist. This is for the sake of balancing it against Divine. Otherwise untouched.
Radiant Silvermail
7 Piercing Defence
7 Shadow Defence
+4 Health
+4 Shock Resistance
+4 Poison Resistance
+4 Curse Resistaqnce
+2 Damage Versus Undead
Compared to the original, it has shock resist. This is for the sake of balancing it against Divine. Otherwise untouched.
What about all those overpowered hats?
Let's start with the Mask of Seerus.
Perfect Mask of Seerus
6 Elemental Defence
4 Normal Defence
3 Piercing Defence
+4 Health
+3 Fire Resistance
+3 Shock Resistance
-3 Freeze Resistance
-3 Poison Resistance
+2 Handgun CTR
+1 Handgun ASI
All resistances lowered a tad. Defences emulate those of a gremlin, so it's kind of like an offensive Grey Feather.
Kat Claw Cowl
8 Shadow Defence
6 Normal Defence
+4 Health
+4 Freeze Resistance
-3 Shock Resistance
-2 Curse Resistance
+1 Sword Damage
+1 Sword Attack Speed Increase
Kat Cowl is like currently, but with one less health.
Kat Eye Cowl
6 Normal Defence
4 Shadow Defence
+4 Health
+4 Freeze Resistance
-3 Shock Resistance
-2 Curse Resistance
+1 Handgun Damage
+1 Handgun Attack Speed Increase
Kat Hiss Cowl
6 Normal Defence
4 Shadow Defence
+4 Health
+4 Freeze Resistance
-3 Shock Resistance
-2 Curse Resistance
+1 Bomb Damage
+1 Bomb Charge Time Reduction
And the big whooper.
Black Kat Cowl
6 Shadow Defence
2 Normal Defence
+3 Health
+4 Freeze Resistance
-4 Fire Resistance
-4 Shock Resistance
-4 Poison Resistance
-4 Curse Resistance
+3 Damage
+1 MSI
Negative resistances are a bit stronger than on Chaos due to the postive freeze. Otherwise much like Chaos.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 06:13
#2
+36
+1 X 36 suggestions in one thread = +36!!!!
Bravo, My suggestion for balancing armor was abit more, lets say, negative....
It was to make all armors have Defenses based on the Monster families EX: Vog has Elemental but negative pierce armor,
It looked good on paper, but imagine all those angry skolver clones.....
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 06:34
#3
To lazy to edit my first post
But could you atleast give Royal jelly Sleep resist and the Plate armors Sleep weakness again, I know its useless (Right now), but its for the Lulz and preparation for Sir Sloomienusfus the 5th, also known as "Sloombargo"
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 06:50
#4
.............@Z makes Teddy sound cooler...
+1..................................
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 06:54
#5
@Grittle
We are pretty certain no monsters have negative defence. Instead, the defence on a monster may look a bit like this:
Gremlin
16 Elemental Defence
8 Piercing Defence
8 Normal Defence
+5 Fire Resist
-2 Poison Resist
+2 Being Super Jerks
We believe this because we've seen the damage types being referred to as "Weak", "Resistant" and "Very Resistant". Yellow damage is simply a product of damage not being defended at all.
My initial through was also to be a 2-1-1 ratio defence on armours but perhaps it's for the best not to deviate too far away from the current setup. You can see how I did this exact thing with Seerus though.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 06:56
#6
aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh
my slime buff on volcanic salamander... why should someone need a construct buff anyway? at that point you should already have an elemental weapon and those that are usually taken are pretty powerful (reference to Polaris- DAvenger; but even the corresponding 4* versions). (not english, sorry for sentence construction) actually though, I have no idea besides retaining the slime buff. others would be absurd. in fact, anything on that armor is absurd (a chroma that gives bonus against slime???).
side note: I have a blackhawk and a gigawatt. I actually have no problems dealing with slimes. but I find them way more difficult than constructs. constructs to me are crap pieced together. jelly give me some problems when they are a lot; constructs are too slow for that (scuttlebots= shield bumping).
the rest is fine.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 08:17
#7
eyes trying to see the end to another end
The most basic problem i see on the suggestion is the effect of UVs on equipments, besides of the resistance reduction on the coats/helmets, the resistance and bonus UVs still not touched
you know than one max resist (elemental/shadow/piercing/normal) UV on current 5 star equip equals one 2 star, right?
so... if i got one max neutral on wolver part, i can double the neutral resistance on "your" Vog set example, making something that should be an "lust effect" for the richer players into something more mandatory
the overall nerf will increase the importance of the UVs equipment in general, both in sets, as in weapons
>> got high charge bonus on each weapon to avoid the defenseless chaos set
>> got max neutral defense on snarby set to avoid use plate set series on tier 1-2 missions
>> wield trinkets can free you to use defensive sets, maintaining the ultra/maximum bonus on one weapon type
...
everyone has something to say about that point of view?
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 08:09
#8
My name is not Fehzor but I approve of this post anyway.
These are some interesting yet simple ideas. How it would work out is another matter. I'd like to see it on test servers.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 08:24
#9
I'd agree on weapons balancing, but for armors and helmets... I guess no. ( Except for Chaos )
.
.
I am not sure why, but I feel these nerfs are more punishing than balancing. Knowing that you are a bomber, I feel that you are trying to buff bombs by these dramatically nerfs. While I know that Clockworks is very easy nowadays, but would you please think about Laggers ? I mean... Chaos is OP, I know, but 3 elemental bars and +2 health is too much. By this, you are just making the game not only hard, but unplayable for some people. ( Exclude the holy UVers and Non-Lagging players )
You might be focusing on making Offensive Armors offensive and Defensive Armors defensive, but with these nerfs, you will make everyone use the defensive ones, unless they are sure that they can dodge the attacks of monsters or even in LD.
.
.
In the end, that's just my opinion, and I will stick to that. Don't make the game Punishing, make it balanced.
-1 in general.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 08:54
#10
Lick Number 58425
+1
@Dragneel, So derpy players who can't dodge and rely on their armor to tank hits should be able to use offensive armors to no ill effect? Seems legit.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 09:22
#11
Most of this seems a little
Most of this seems a little over the top, but a step in the right direction.
At the same time, if the game is going to be made harder, enemies should get smarter, not just kill us in two hits. That's no fun. Let's hope OOO doesn't see this and kill EVERY set's defense.
As for Arcane, giving it Fiend is useless. A low damage boost geared towards a single enemy is pretty much like only having one cripplingly weak bonus to a family, pretending it's a medium, and calling it a day. It's the same rationale behind Volcanic Salamander being bad except worse. I'd give it Shadow defense and a medium against Fiends, or a low to both Fiends and Undead.
Edit: Also, UVs will royally screw over everything this balance tries to achieve.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 09:58
#12
@Dragneel-Wiki
If you are lagging then don't pick glass cannon armours. Glass Cannon armour does, by definition, have crappy defence and is, by definition, reserved for elite players.
Apart from the charge interruption reduction, bomber armours are suggested to get the nerfbat just as hard as sword and gunslinger armours have. I am not suggesting this to buff bombs; the CIR is there because Chaos gives me no choice. I mean, look at Mad and Volcanic, the most popular two Bomber armours. They have no Normal defence! None! The armour has clearly been heavily nerfed! A bomber would have legit reasons for putting on Vog Cub over Volcanic Demo.
I am suggesting it to make 80% of the game's armours actually viable. More importantly, I am suggesting it to make 80% of the game's armours legitimate choices that are hard to pick between. You should cringe at the sheer amount of defence you're giving up in favour of offensive bonuses. You're supposed to be wary of donning offensive armours, and hold respect for those who do and come out triumphant. That's the entire idea.
I would like to point out that defensive armours are more defensive than currently with this suggestion. Every aspect of their defences have been increased by one level. Which means that the suggestion would improve the situation for laggy players. Just add weapon trinkets and you're good to go with offence.
@Zeyez
I see your concern, but I think you're not seeing the vast gulf between, say, Grey Feather and Vog created here. Let's optimize:
Vog: Normal Max, Elemental Max, Fire Max, Penta-Heart Pendant
5 Normal
8 Elemental
+7 Fire Resistance
+8 Health
+2 Sword Attack Speed Increase
Magic: Normal Max, Elemental Max, Fire Max, Elite Quickstrike Module
8 Normal
10 Elemental
+9 Fire Resistance (This is wisp immunity in one piece of armour)
+5 Shock Resistance
+4 Health
+2 Sword Attack Speed Increase
I don't see Magic coming out looking bad at all, here. Vog is still better, offensively, because he could swap that heart trinket with Sword Damage or something. Vog would never get as far as Grey Feather could, defensively, while Grey Feather could never get as far as Vog could, offensively. Seems good to me. In fact, even with max Normal, Elemental, and Shock, Grey Feather would still have a bit better defences without any UVs at all. Here:
Vog: Normal Max, Elemental Max, Shock Max. Total cost: probably like freaking 5 million crowns.
5 Normal
8 Elemental
+3 Fire Resistance
+4 Fire Resistance
+3 Health
+2 Sword Attack Speed Increase
Magic: Elite Quickstrike Module. Total cost: 1100CE, 10k crowns, 50CE per month.
6 Normal
8 Elemental
+5 Fire Resistance
+5 Shock Resistance
+4 Health
+2 Sword Attack Speed Increase
Replace quickstrike with slash module, put a single ASI on your swords and you'll notice pretty quick that rich players are not getting a whole lot more mileage from their super UVs than what can be done with defensive armours and some cheap UVs and trinkets.
@Draycos
Arcane Salamander was tricky. I had to
-Balance it against Volcanic Salamander
-Make it not boring. (Being exactly like Volcanic but vs Gremlins was rejected, for instance.)
-Try to keep in the spirit of the original armour.
The original Arcane has a bit more defence than Volcanic in the specialised department. It felt fitting to make it have more normal defence than the other specialised ones. That defence is basically why neither bonus is +2, as gremlins and fiends are both giant jerks who it is desirable to have bonuses against. It's kind of like how +Fire is of more value than +Poison but we kind of have to pretend it isn't.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 10:18
#13
Nitpicks
You got the Kat Hiss Cowl mixed up with the Kat Claw Cowl.
Here's my suggestion which will outweigh any negative suggestion anyone has ever made, that will make millions of angry Skolver Clones hunt me down and kill me:
Repurpose the Wolver line:
Angry yet? You will be. Change it to:
Drumroll please....... (drum sounds)
Damage bonus versus Beast, instead of Sword Attack Bonus.
Please don't kill me...
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 11:17
#14
@Zeddy :
So if I am a lagger, I shouldn't enjoy the power of other armors? Sorry, but I can't accept this. And I said Bombs, not Bombers. They are completely different words, aren't they? But as Draycos said, being hit harder doesn't make the game harder or enjoyable or heck even challenging. It would just make it like : "You are bad in dodging? You die", or "You don't have defensive armor, You die." I understand that you want to make every armor to stick to its true purpose, but I think you are just overdoing it, that's all.
I am not against the idea, but it is a bit more than needed. ^__^
@Oatmonster :
You didn't read my post carefully.
Go read it again.
I didn't say Derpy, stupid players, I said Laggy, lagger players should be punished because of this balancing. Seems legit too.
@Unstable-Ordinance :
Well....
If you do that, you should also remove the damage bonuses from : Shadowsun, Bombastic, Mad Bomber, Chaos. Because it would be unfair if you just remove the damage bonuses from Swords only.
/Proceeds to kill Unstable-Ordinance...
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 11:24
#15
Simples!
Change the Cobalt line into the Sword Damage Bonus line!
Disclaimer: Unstable-Ordinance is mentally.... unstable, and none of his ideas should be taken seriously.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 11:42
#16
Simples!
EDIT: It seems I have made an extremely delayed double post...
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 11:59
#17
@Dragneel-Wiki
So if I am a lagger, I shouldn't enjoy the power of other armors?
Do you realise how much you're proving my case for me? You're making it extremely obvious how desirable the buffs on class armours are by how whiny you are at being "punished" by not being able to enjoy them. (Again, damage trinkies aren't going anywhere. Instead of, say, max damage ultra asi you're "stuck" at a something like very high damage, high asi. The difference is not all that huge!)
Yes, a real-time action game cannot and should not be geared with people who do not have the capability to fix their network issues in mind. If you do not have the connection available to dodge attacks, you're 'punished' with the ability to switch to defensive armour that will let the game be more lenient on you and let you take less damage in exchange for maybe 10% attack power.
And I said Bombs, not Bombers.
You're talking about Lockdown, aren't you? No, my intention is not to buff the one normal damage bomb worth a damn in Lockdown. Every sword except toothpicks and hammers would do more damage to skolvers with this rebalance. Supernova, Iron Slug and Valiance would god forbid become viable choices. Troikas, Cutters and Calibur would maybe even see some use. What would bombs gain from this? Nitronome would probably do a bit more damage. What else? Normal shards which would not become any more likely to hit anything? Big Angry and Irontech, aka "Hi I'm a slowly moving target please walk into my sluggishly increasing fuse" would maybe do some actual punch on anyone derp enough to get hit by them. There's... heavy deconstructor?
Meanwhile, I'm taking even more damage from fausts in my bomber armour than previously. Yeah wow, I feel buffed over here.
Or maybe you're talking about the reduced status resist that would drop non-guardians below haze immunity while not really being that much more of a pain in the clockworks.
God forbid defensive armours are worth anything in Lockdown. You could keep haze immunity by mixing one piece from an offensive and one from defensive sets if you're too stingy for a low UV or a status trinket.
But as Draycos said, being hit harder doesn't make the game harder or enjoyable or heck even challenging.
Being able to take more hits makes the game easier and less challenging. If you do not believe me, imagine being able to take a million hits without dying and try to imagine if you would find this difficult, challenging or even fun. Now, reverse that.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 15:40
#18
Yayy! Fallen is now the best set for Lockdown!
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 20:04
#19
@Zeddy
Not everyone is a hardcore spiral knights player like you Zeddy: these rebalances would make the learning curve much steeper and as a result, lower the amount of players (not that we need to do that already), which in turn reduces the income of OOO. Armors should be like the alchemers - status alchemers exchange a small chunk of damage for an effect, so specialized armors should lose some defense for their bonuses.
As mentioned before in this thread, I think SK needs armor rebalances, but not as harsh as you're suggesting.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 20:50
#20
100% agree with vlad.
Also, why remove the normal defense of Shadowsun but keep it on all the other gunslinger armour?
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 22:16
#21
Azure Guardian
Since Azure Guardian is supposed to be the "base", "all around" armor set, why give it only normal defense when many enemies in T3 don't deal normal defense? In t3 normal becomes almost another type of specialized defense.
Re-rebalance:
Azure Guardian
+4 health
+2.5 normal
+2.5 piercing
+2.5 elemental
+2.5 shadow
+1 fire
+1 freeze
+1 stun
+1 poison
+1 shock
That's balanced, right? Offers protection in every situation, but not as much as a specialized or defensive armor would in any given situation. It would also encourage it as a first 5* armor, since you want something that can prepare you for a little bit of everything instead of spending a big chunk of cash on an armor that's only good in one level before you get to the point where you can efficiently make enough money to diversify your arsenal.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 22:42
#22
@Vlad
"Not everyone is a hardcore spiral knights player like you Zeddy: these rebalances would make the learning curve much steeper-"
We're proposing some pretty substantial buffs to half the game's armours here. People could run around in gray feather basically shrugging off shock and fire without a care in the world. If anything, the rebalance would make things easier for the more casual player, as those are the exact people who should be gravitating towards defensive armour in the first place.
For the casual, the game gets easier while for the hardcore, the game gets harder. It sounds downright ideal put like that, doesn't it? Mixing and matching offensive and defensive armour to get a medium between them remains an option.
A third option is to go for family bonus armours. With the decent defences present on them, perhaps it would even be a viable idea for once.
- status alchemers exchange a small chunk of damage for an effect, so specialized armors should lose some defense for their bonuses.
How's that working out for the ever popular Nova Driver you see everyone using?
@Troupe-Forums
Only Deadshot has normal defence. It's a little nudge to it not strictly being a gunslinger set.
@Noklip
I was considering something like giving +1 resist to fire, shock, freeze and poison on the armour while giving +1 universal CTR on the helmet.
2.5 defence all around is just abysmal and we're back to Vog/Skolver/Snarby being blatantly better even in their proposed nerfed state. The general thought behind the balance is that normal defence is of much value, because it is. The biggest problem with defensive armour, currently, is that Snarby provides better defence against zombie bites than Dread "Defensive Armour" Skelly does. With 8 normal, Cobalt would almost offer as much protection against skelly bites as Snarbolax would and much more against other families. All melee attacks do at least partial normal damage so Cobalt's only weakness would be bullets. I can assure you that I'd take 8 normal over 2.5 everything anywhere.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 22:55
#23
@Zeddy
I wouldn't say the same for its counterpart, the Umbra driver. They're pretty popular, but I guess that's because it deals shadow damage, though the two are pretty much identical in PvP.
Thu, 02/21/2013 - 23:02
#24
What if you mess with the numbers a bit? I just kinda threw those out there, not exactly an expert on weapon balance.
Fri, 02/22/2013 - 06:09
#25
I agree that the balancing is
I agree that the balancing is good for the game. Hurts people who already play, and spent cold hard cash on certain sets, but meh.
One thing I don't like is how there's 3 Wolver sets, and 3 sword bonuses; but in SK now, and in your post, only 2 of those bonuses are ever used. Considering that, I believe either Skolver or Snarby should be changed from DB, to CTR.
Other than that, I agree entirely with this re-balancing. :D
Fri, 02/22/2013 - 06:47
#26
@Masterofkings
But shouldn't there be a gun CTR F2P set, then? And what about Bombers getting all defence types?
Fri, 02/22/2013 - 11:54
#27
+1
ERMERGERD, BERLERNCE!
As a DVS-wielding lunatic, I approve!
Heh, but now being slightly more seerus, I actually did like the gist of these balances. I think you got it down to a T when you said that all the offensive armors were way too defensive. (FYI, I have a snarby set myself). the plate, skelly, and scale series really could use some more love.
Fri, 02/22/2013 - 12:59
#28
Once again...
A suggestion for balance. Coming with great thought, follow through, and cooperation.
Once again a suggestion that's a true suggestion comes out to play in the forums.
Good luck guys, +1 all the way.
Fri, 02/22/2013 - 20:06
#29
+1 (But there are issues)
I like the general idea of this, but there are some issues that I've spotted, although there likely more.
First of all, the health bonuses need a fix. Personally, I think the suggested health bonuses are too low, making the game more difficult than it needs to be. Besides, all anybody would do is equip health trinkets. In my opinion, the offensive armors should all be reverted to the normal +5 health bonus. The defensive armors, though, should have a larger health bonus to give them an advantage, maybe +6. Plate armor should have around +7 to make it more tank-like.
Also (a very minor tweak), give the Seerus Mask a curse debuff to make it more like the Gremlin shadow weakness and curb its other resistances by a point or so. Wearing it with Shadowsun would give resistances (albeit minor in some areas) to shadow, elemental, piercing, and normal damage.
Finally, I have a feeling the community (especially the Skolver Clones), wouldn't like the idea of all this nerfing and rebalancing. It takes quite a while to get to 5*, and many may want to change their sets with such rebalancing. It would be best to implement it slowly, gradually introducing changes over time to avoid an outrage and/or exodus from the game.
Sat, 02/23/2013 - 05:24
#30
@Hargbeast
The norm-
Oh.
OH!
I've been adjusting these numbers based on the wiki, which show the stats of level 1 armour. You can basically assume all armours to have 1 bar of defence and 1 health more than currently shown.
Which changes a lot come to think of it.
Sun, 02/24/2013 - 16:16
#31
This is a very good thread
This is a very good thread about pets!
Sun, 02/24/2013 - 16:28
#32
¬.¬
Sun, 02/24/2013 - 17:15
#33
my 2 cents
I would give you +1 if you didn't kill the Mad Bomber line completely with a bloody Troika
Seriously...
Mad Bomber
3 Shadow Defence
+2 Health
-2 Fire Resistance
-2 Freeze Resistance
-2 Shock Resistance
-2 Poison Resistance
+2 Bomb Charge Time Reduction
+2 Bomb Damage
+1 Bomb Charge Interruption Reduction
And here's Mad. It has no Normal Defence at all and only 3 Shadow. Madness! Health is also +2 instead of the mainstream +4 and class armour's now typical +3.
disgusted by this garbage... Sorry but it really pisses me off... The Mad bomber is fine as it is. Elemental defense with all status -2. You could simply reduce the normal defense or the ele one you know? but switching completely defense? And what is Charge Interruption Reduction? You get hit while charging a bomb it should either stops or detonate on yourself...
Why does Mercurial gets MSI +2 and not Mercurial Demo? What is this discrimination?
And I don't get the +2 instead of +4 health
Overall: Some pretty good ideas, some terrible ideas
-1 +1 = 0
Edit: I can get over the Chaos set being buffed to surpass Mad Bomber, I like Mad Bomber. I will always stick to it but god... 4 shadow def, no normal... Might as well just get my proto gear...
Sun, 02/24/2013 - 18:19
#34
@Shamanala
Mad Bomber/Chaos was a pretty big issue we dwelled on a whole bunch. It practically is the reason this topic started, really. That's why it's a bit odd that it seems half-finished to me, now.
The Charge Interruption Reduction reduces the amount of charge you lose when you get hit. We had to introduce it in order to balance it against Chaos, as it needed a bomber-specific bonus that Chaos could not provide. We also gave Chaos a negative CIR to solidify Mad being a definitely better choice for pure bombers, which isn't currently the case.
We made Mad shadow defence due to it requiring shadow materials, and also due to bombers lacking shadow resistant armour. Removing a second defence entirely might be a bit excessive. Let's put a bit back on it. Unfortunately, I don't find bumping the health up any to be fitting. Plate gives 5, defensive armour 4, class armour 3, glass cannon 2. That's the system, I will have to stick to my guns on this one. Let's adjust a little bit and...
Mad Bomber
4 Shadow Defence
2 Normal Defence
+2 Health
-2 Fire Resistance
-2 Freeze Resistance
-2 Shock Resistance
-2 Poison Resistance
+2 Bomb Charge Time Reduction
+2 Bomb Damage
+1 Bomb Charge Interruption Reduction
Chaos
4 Elemental
+2 Health
-3 Fire Resistance
-3 Freeze Resistance
-3 Shock Resistance
-3 Poison Resistance
+2 Charge Time Reduction
+2 Damage
-1 Charge Interruption Reduction
Mercurial Demo has +1 because regular Mercurial has nothing else going for it while M. Demo still has the bomb damage bonus. In addition, Mercurial Demo has the interruption reduction just like all the other bomber armour lines. This should make them balanced against eachother, which isn't currently the case. Right now the only reason to pick Mercurial over M. Demo is if you really, really want that piercing defence.
Sun, 02/24/2013 - 18:36
#35
I thought you could make up
I thought you could make up more jokes about the Royal jelly, I was wrong, you couldn't make any at all
Also, could you explain attack interruption reduction abit more, I dont get it at all, so it would prevent shield canceling?
If you did, Good Bloody hell, you made royal jelly even more horrible!
Sun, 02/24/2013 - 19:43
#36
@Grittle
When I put a "+" it generally refers to a positive effect.
You know how your attack gets interrupted if a monster hits you? Like, you're swinging Troika around, but a stray bullets hits you and your entire swing gets canceled. Attack interruption reduction would prevent that from happening. You wouldn't be completely unstoppable, but more interruption reduction increases the amount of damage/interruption power required to stop you.
It's basically the same as interruption and resistance to interruption on monsters.
Sun, 02/24/2013 - 21:34
#37
Huh...
Looks good in theory, but maybe this needs to be applied in test servers to find out if it can work on the field...
But how would this affect hybrid builds?
Sun, 02/24/2013 - 22:16
#38
my 2 cents
The Charge Interruption Reduction reduces the amount of charge you lose when you get hit
So you are building this Mad Bomber like we get hit a bunch of time? 4 def shadow with no normal def, HELLO, we will die 2 shots, the CIR is useless and pointless in this case...
What made Mad Bomber what it is, is the CTR and DMG Med... Could throw some ASI in there but no CIR, it's pointless in many bomber situation and would not like people to abuse CIR and just get hit to charge faster...
CTR and DMG are well balanced but ASI could use a tweak instead of putting another variable in the mix.
IDK why people think it's a good idea, I do not... But the "big guy" on this forum approves CIR so my opinion is worthless... blah....
You still ruined Mad Bomber for me, I don't get hit much...
Edit: and I made Mercurial Demo because it was on par with Mercurial and it was for bomber... Another slap to my face... but hey w/e, I don't agree and let's just keep it at that ^ ^
Sun, 02/24/2013 - 22:43
#39
What are these new defenses based on, how much damage enemies in the Clockworks do? Remember, health bars and defense bars are 40 damage per bar but each bar of health can be divided into eighths making the lowest damage taken from a single hit possible being five. Because if this is based on Lockdown I am going to give you, Fezzy, and the swinger zombie bell boy wedgies until your groins make bitter love to your chins even if Fezzy is doing laundry.
Sun, 02/24/2013 - 22:47
#40
@Shamanala
I tacked 2 Normal onto there, little guy.
I ran FSC earlier today with a Cyclops Cap and Heavy Demo Suit, the end result was a total of about 4 normal, 4 elemental defence and +4 health. What I noticed was that I was able to take quite a few hits once in a while when I derped up, especially as soon as I got a Vitapod under my belt. It's not really that bad.
I don't really see people "abusing" CIR. You'll still lose charge, just less (or perhaps none at all), but it's not like it'd let you charge faster somehow. It's just a way to balance bombs against other weapons in general, as well as balancing Mad against Chaos.
Let's say we don't give +2 MSI to Mercurial. What would you do to balance Mercurial vs Mercurial Demo? Give it ASI? More defence?
@Luguiru
I'm not sure what you're asking about. The defence listed is measured in bars, as shown on the tooltips of armours. Most of them don't deviate a whole lot from their original values.
I don't think Fehzor plays Lockdown much, and we put more consideration into how difficult it'd be to to achieve wisp immunity, than haze bomb immunity for resistances.
Mon, 02/25/2013 - 06:32
#41
I'm going to go with dragneel
The FSC is really laggy for many players, and nerfing the Vog, a common armor in FSC would make people teleport to those annoying flames or spikes.
I'd like to make Armors balanced, nerfing them is not a good idea, since it leads to more rage threads about lags, petitions to nerf monsters (which makes the game really easy).
And why does Shadowsun have no normal defence and the justifier, nameless, etc. have normal defends? (I think ASI's benefit more in dodging)
But I'm not fully disagreeing in this thread, some Armors do need more defence due to the reason they are rarely used and wolves were 75%. (Now less, I think so.)
Mon, 02/25/2013 - 07:22
#42
my 2 cents
Let's say we don't give +2 MSI to Mercurial. What would you do to balance Mercurial vs Mercurial Demo? Give it ASI? More defence?
It has piercing with better elec resistance, that should be enough to choose that over the Mercurial Demo... You could throw some ASI Low in there but I don't like the way you nerfed all the main line except Cobalt
I prefer OOO ways then your ideas
I don't get why you take out normal def and put a specialize type one and that's it... Vana slams his hammer on you and one-shot KO
I don't have to balance YOUR ideas. You have to balance it, people don't help me balance my suggestions... They just blatantly show my flaws and points out the obvious.
After re-reading your items. I have to say "shove CIR where I think" because it is worthless in so many occasion. Why would there even be a variable that help you charge after being hit. What next, movement speed upgraded by 15% when you are hit? DMG buff by 20%?
Charge Interruption Reduction is worthless, pointless and you shouldn't base all your gears with an affix that is not in the game, that is not tested and that obviously require some balance.
A million times NO
I firmly disagree this post and would like you to actually create a game (or a custom map in Warcraft III or SCII) then do some balancing. Drastic changes does not happens often (on balanced game). LoL is a perfect example of this... Making huge changes to pre-existing items is NEVER a good idea to go around, by retro-nerfing all that has been found so far is a big slap to people face...
Adding new lines to balance the other one is better, less rage from people with said items that would be retro-nerfed (I can tell you after playing 1 month of D3 that ninja nerf patch were always a problem, made us re-equipped ourselves many times...)
Some of your ideas could be implemented into new items, but simply all out nerfing all armor (or tweaking it) to the point you have is madness.
Just take a look at a LoL patch and what they change just to rework pre-existing heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9UR0gb-rqk
That's proper balancing
Edit: +2 Charge Time Reduction
+2 Damage
-1 Charge Interruption Reduction
I told you, CIR for me is useless and pointless, Chaos is still better than Mad in your version. The bonus of Mad bomber is IF you get hit, you will recover faster and charge faster... which should be in Mercurial demo instead of Mad Bomber...
Mon, 02/25/2013 - 08:15
#43
I am going to revise the whole thing with the feedback in mind so far. After taking some time to think of it, I can see that the current suggestion is perhaps a bit on the excessive side. I still think the current offensive armours need a nerf of some manner, however, I will keep it watered out and perhaps think of a worthy buff for the defensive and specialised lines instead. I have something in mind. While I fiddle with this, I have some questions for you all so we can mull over this together:
-Do you feel current defensive armours do their job well?
-Is the current thought of having more normal defence than specialised a fruitful idea, or would you prefer class armours to keep having more normal than specialised here? Try to think in terms of balance, rather than what will happen to your favourite set.
-What do you think of the current gist of removing a low resist from class armours and adding a low to defensive ones?
-Mad vs Chaos? What do other people think of CIR on all bomber armour?
-Should I strip my custom buffs altogether or would it actually be fine if I came up with more of them? You have absolutely no idea how much restraint I showed with my armour buffs here.
-Is it fine to consider Bomb damage equal to Bomb CTR? Sword damage equal to Sword ASI?
-Is it fine to consider damage vs beast equal to Sword D- BAWHAAHaha no it isn't.
-Gun CTR armour and Sword CTR armour, do we want them? Should I perhaps put those on, say, Snarby and Nameless?
-I don't know why people keep saying we have normal defence to justifier and nameless when I didn't, but what do people think about replacing normal on gunslinger sets in general? I see people questioning why it's done on some sets and not others, but none of them say whether they think it's a good or bad thing.
@Shamanala
I gave your video a watch and decided that video is a horrible format for patch notes. I was not familiar with the game so that made it harder yet to understand what point you were trying to show with it.
CIR is not useless for you. If it was, you wouldn't be complaining about Mad's reduced defence. What would you care? You don't get hit! Furthermore, it is not an untested and entirely new aspect of the game. Getting hit while charging used to remove the charge entirely, but CIR was universally applied and now it's plausible to charge up things while on fire or walking through poison mist.
Mon, 02/25/2013 - 08:48
#44
Boop
I think the offensive armors are blanaced so you just die slightly less horribly in a shadow lair and if your good you can do FSC no matter what armor you wear.
I don't think it's that Offensive armors are too defensive, but rather that defensive armors are not defensive enough.
Let's compare Skoalver and Royal Jelly
The difference is that royal jelly gives bonuses to two statuses as apposed to 1 (even though sleep was removed.)
And the difference in piercing and normal defence isn't that noticeable.
My proposed balance would be to make the jelly mail feel more like a jelly, I.E. Give it an additional half elemental defence (leaving shadow as a weakness like a jelly.)
So that way family sets that give no damage or asi bonuses will be more balanced and have an incentive to get. This would make Icequeen armor the best armor for Ice queen as well.
TL:DR New Balances:
Jelly mail line gets an additional half elemental protection.
Skelly line gets an additional half piercing defence.
Magic to grey Feather line gets an additional half piercing defence.
Mercurial gets 2/5 to 1/3 elemental defense and MSI med.
Virulisk Line gets 2/5 to 1/3 elemental protection.
Salamanders get 2/5 to 1/3 shadow protection.
Angelic sets get 2/5 to 1/3 elemental protection.
all ammounts compared to normal *ed equivalent.
Mon, 02/25/2013 - 10:06
#45
The entire original post has been redone.
I don't completely agree. Buffing defensive armours alone would do nothing, as the current class armours are defensive enough that you can go anywhere with them. Fighting poison jellies? Better bring volcanic demo. Freeze fiends? Volcanic demo.
However, I did have the same thought as you did in regards to defence.
I repeat, the entire original post has been redone.
Mon, 02/25/2013 - 10:21
#46
my 2 cents
Getting hit while charging used to remove the charge entirely, but CIR was universally applied and now it's plausible to charge up things while on fire or walking through poison mist.
You shouldn't be able to charge if you get hit, but the 1 sec invulnerability is enough to charge most bombs while in CTR Max... So I never had this problem, even a year ago...
CIR is pointless from my POV, it is useful for people with low CTR... I made Mad Bomber set as my 2nd armor set and was in CTR Ultra with all bombs 5* I had from the get-go...
I hope you can see my point of view, not that it is the only one that matter. But I just like to reconsider CIR and maybe putting ASI instead.
ASI is really helpful, allow you to move quickly after putting/charging a bomb. I would prefer Mercurial Demo MSI +1 and ASI +2 (or +1 ASI + 1 dmg + 1 MSI could be good too) would be funky and people would have a reason to go for it (and with that I wouldn't mind Mercurial having 2 MSI and nothing else)
I think you (and a lot of people) are strongly overlooking ASI on bombs, you should try CTR Max with ASI high (Swiftstrike Buckler), if you can't get someone else in CTR Max with no ASI (or with ASI high) just pm me and we could do tests so you can see for yourself ^ ^
Mon, 02/25/2013 - 13:35
#47
+1
I like all of this!
Mon, 02/25/2013 - 13:52
#48
Bliep
Hey you know what? Why don't you take all the armor and throw it out of the window? Yeah and those weps. Yeah they are too OP right? And sure while you are already buisy why don't throw al the shield out of the window, or even better just flush them down the toilet. Not a big deal at all right?
( seriously? These kids nowodays. The only armor that needs a vuff is the cobalt. Thats the only idia i will give you a +1 for. And because I am such a kind person i'll even give you another +1 and a cooxkie;) Hoe about that. Bow you will not have to go and whine by your mummoe that this evil Demete had ruined your thread.
But seriously(and you are making me use seriously twice, seriously? , dang it! ><) stop complainig
Mon, 02/25/2013 - 13:57
#49
Demete...
What tier are you?
Heck, where's your avatar?
Mon, 02/25/2013 - 14:43
#50
You forgot about Ancient Plate's MSD.
My name is Fehzor and I approve this message.