1. Understand energy system
2. Post about energy system

In that order.

So you plucked over the good threads about how to conserve your energy? How to sell your materials to people for crowns or energy. How to join on parties in progress to avoid burning through energy on low depths?

I only mention this because as someone who is almost in complete 5 star gear working on downing Vanaduke I haven't spent anywhere NEAR 100USD on this game and I've been playing since release.

The current system is VERY sustainable but it does require conscious thought on the part of the user. I've run in to a lot of players who just try to barrel through the game burning through hundreds of energy just in rezzing (Even heard about someone blowing around 10,000 CE on rezzing in the levels up to vanaduke alone.)

For comparison on average I'll spend around 200-250 energy in a full depth 0-core run on a gate. In that run i'll make enough crowns to purchase about 300-400 Energy from the market if I play it right and wait for the right times to buy and sell. That means i'm steadily gaining CE that I can use for more runs, or to craft with. And if I need an injection of capital because of a big spending spree then I can do so every once in awhile. I certainly don't need to do it every month and once you hit the 5 star gear you start quickly running out of the extra things to burn energy on and you start making even more.

Travel in groups to avoid rezzing fees, don't open side gates unless you have the energy to burn, don't do danger rooms if you think you can't handle them (hint: you probably can't handle them past Tier 1) Keep an eye on the trade chat to sell materials you don't need for crowns or energy. If you find a popular recipe you can afford while at Basil buy it and sell it to people looking for it.

There are MANY options in the game to extend your crowns and energy, the laziest way is to just keep buying energy via real money. This is what the game is relying on. The people who utilize the smart way to play aren't making OOO much money, the people who have disposable income or are too lazy to care are the ones that are making OOO money. This is very similar to most micro transaction systems out there. Most of them have systems in place that you can utilize to avoid having to pay tons of money out of pocket and systems in place that let you burn as much money as you like.

A guide I found helpful when I first started out: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/2909

@Alyssin

The thing is, you don't give up your advancement at all for the selling of materials you won't be using. You will almost always come across stuff you don't need when you delve into the Clockwork. This, plus smart play (i.e. no rampant dying/energy reviving), will allow you to sustain your energy through only crown income. Even with the energy prices rising a bit you can sustain your dungeoneering for more than an hour's gaming a day and make a modest income.

i smell old player, new account.

Spent 15x2 (Girlfriend and I)

Still playing since release. 5 star gear. FSC. Etc.

What do you want us to say? That you're right and we're wrong, and that no one is playing this game without paying? That would be a lie.

I am a free player, already in T3, with a stack of 50k crowns and 1000 CE. It's not much, but I got all of it in less than a month and without dropping a dime on the game. Don't give us salt just because you don't know where the Market button is. The Crown:CE Market is right frikkin' there.

"I am not however willing to sacrifice game advancement for play time."

Are you saying you won't trade Crowns for Crystal Energy? If you aren't, you can disregard the rest of my post. If you are, you need to realize that both are "game advancement". The _only_ difference between having a ton of crowns and having an equivalent amount of CE is which way you hope the market moves.

Think of it like this: When you ride an elevator, you could pay 10 Energy, or you could pay ~420 crowns, or whatever 10% of the current market price for 100 energy is. You're not losing "game advancement" by converting crowns to CE anymore than you lose "life advancement" by converting from Dollars to Euros. As long as you're still buying stuff you want, it's all just currency!

It's a good business strategy. They lure in suckers... I only pay crowns for energy :) I play it smart!

Don't give up on the game yet - it's a neat game and nowhere near as bad in cost as it seems at first. :)

If you have several hours to play each day you'll be able to buy your energy with crowns and still advance fast enough to reach T3 in 2-3 weeks. You shouldn't have to buy more than $10 worth of energy in the beginning to get you started, so long as you use it well. I know it feels like giving up advancement to use your crowns on energy, but think about it another way: if you buy energy to be able to get gear faster, you're essentially paying extra to have the game end sooner. I ran into a guy in town some days ago who was thinking out loud that he was sad because he really liked this game and he had beaten it. Why get there sooner than you need to?

Add me in game if you like - I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about what is and isn't worth buying. IGN Kaley.

Don't bother crafting anything. Pay 50 CE a piece for all 2 star equipment. Wolver caps and suits, owlite shield, calibur and some gun. Then do tier 2 runs. Each run will earn you enough crowns to buy an equivalent amount of CE with some left over depending on your skill. You will also accumulate materials you can sell if you choose.

You are complaining that buying CE costs you crowns and impedes advancement, but what do you want? 30K CE dumped in your lap for 10 bucks? Instead of looking at it as impeding your progress, look at a run as only earning 1-4K crowns instead of 5-8K.

I've spent zero dollars on this game, have nearly full 5* gear, 22,000 CE, and play for hours everyday. I think maybe you are doing it wrong? Or if you are just impatient then that is the price you pay (i.e. real money). Sacrificing in game currency for more play time doesn't "infringe" on your advancement so much as it costs you cold hard cash.

Well for reference, when I started Energy prices were at 3.5k, but yes I can see your point is would be more difficult, however all nice weapons and gear sell at HEAPS lower prices (wolver coats for 1.5k, Silversixs for only 550 CE) it works both way.

My energy prices were at 4.7~8k when I started so actually I had the worse end of the stick. They have dropped quite a bit since that boom, although they are showing signs of picking up. I have not run teir 3 at all, so I don't know about the money there for in Vanaduke. All I did was play through my energy for the first few days and craft 2* gear. Then I just ran teir 2 and it cost 60 energy and net me about 4.5k crowns which means I gained about 40 energy every run. Did that for a while, then I discovered the Royal Jelly and started doing Jelly runs instead, which net me about 7k-ish crowns for 60 energy (NEVER NEVER RES).

Once I wanted to craft my 3*/4* gear that cost 150/200 energy I wait until I had a busy few days in my schedule and couldn't play, then I let my mist build up and crafted stuff and let it build up again etc. Basically it was the crafting that would have really set me back on my CE gain via dungeoning. I tried to spend CE only on dungeoning and all my extra crowns I spent on recipes for the line I was going. Then I just started crafting up my own armor and weapons and got some lucky UVs which I always sell and then I make another one. I think that leveling up 1 piece of gear to 4* and selling it (nets you 3 chances to proc a UV and sells for at least it's replacement cost) is much better than crafting tons of 2* stuff and selling them off in a flooded market for under cost.

If you really really can't make it then I suggest you buy the smallest amount of energy possible on your account to lock it into paid account status. Then startup another account and make a character and send him all your 2* and 3* recipes. Only craft your 2* and 3* recipes on him/her when they have mist energy available. It will save you those lower costs and you can farm haze bombs off it in your spare time. It won't use shared mist energy because your other account is a paying account. I discovered you can do this because I started by playing together with my wife but then she quit, so I use her character to craft all the 2* and 3* stuff now and just learn the 4* and 5* recipes on my own character.

Under current CE to Crowns prices, you can buy approximately 200 CE for just 1 T2 run, and about 100 CE for a T1 run. So under the current market, the game is sustainable without ever having to open your wallet. What buying CE does do is make you able to attain what gear you're trying to acquire faster.

There is no need for a monthly subscription. If you want a monthly subscription just buy CE every month. But you never have to.

"Alyssin, I have to say, I think you fundamentally don't understand the Energy system and that's where this frustration is coming from."

Spookas, I have to say, I *know* you fundamentally don't understand why the Energy system is repelling potential players and payers.

Getting people to buy entertainment involves making them *feel* like they're getting a fair trade for the dollar (or the pound, or the Euro...). It's not about making things provably fair.

You can argue the numbers up and down, but that doesn't matter. The energy system *feels* like a greedy nickle-and-dime situation to many. Those people are opting out of this game and moving on to other games that have payment systems that don't give them the creeps.

There are people who aren't creeped out by the system, of course, and those people are buying CR and enjoying the game. If you do a gate-count, you'll see that, while there are several such people, those people still constitute a very, very small niche market.

Leviathan : "Three Rings has been running Puzzle Pirates on a similar model for years, and it works fine for them."

Puzzle Pirates has been in a near-steady decline for years. Things pick up a bit during the summers, but the summertime gains are always smaller than that autumn-time declines.

"Puzzle Pirates has been in a near-steady decline for years. Things pick up a bit during the summers, but the summertime gains are always smaller than that autumn-time declines."

Right. It's an older game. That's part of what happens as a game ages.

Not sure what your point is on this one.

The value of a real dollar in SK is miniscule compared to subscription games in regards to time played.

You could play WoW 8 hours a day for 15 bucks (or whatever blizz charges these days) and get a polished, finished product.. to play SK in the same fashion would cost you what, 100.00 a month?

I get to play as much as i want. I feel like i have full decision over whether i will lose CE over the time i play or gain CE. I have 4 bomb recipes i have not used, recipe lvls 2-4. I have dusker gear i've never equipped (just for funsies to use against JK). I have 4 weapons slots--a vanity!!!

Basically, i can sit down and use 3-400 CE in a day. Or i can play a day and gain 3-400 CE. I don't really find it that difficult. I look at tradechat and if i see WTB for something i can and feel like providing/sellling i do it. You can use all crowns gained in dungeons for purchases of whatever, and pay for your CE in swordstones, iron gears, feathers, and gizmos/dynamos alone. Not to say anything of crafting on request. And u don't have to spend forever in tradechat, you can just look at it for a few mins b/n runs. Don't see WTB, go play. Come back, glance again, etc.

I don't understand how you can not be self-sustaining on this game. Well i do, but you don't have to not be self-sustaining.

1. At current CE prices, given a month of playing 8+ hours per day, you can advance to full 5* gear without having paid anything. This is without even selling a single thing on the market.

2. Without buying a single bit of CE with crowns, based on my rate of spending energy, it would cost approximately $11/month with smart use of your energy while playing 8 hours per day, every day. This is without doing any crafting; you could just use all of your crowns you make to buy equipment on the market.

3. If you don't buy CE with your crowns, you're going to eventually end up with nothing to do with it. It's foolish not to do so.

I'm fully aware, Rietto. I work 10 hour shifts, split my remaining spare time between my son (six), friends and family, and sleeping. I play until my mist tank is empty most mornings, which usually takes 2-3 hours, then I return to haven and log off.

Let me quote the Ops' third post in the thread. Read what you quoted, then read the below quote. Keep reading the quotes until it makes sense.

"I can easily put in 8+ hours of gaming a day due to lack of work to be done coupled with general boredom." -OP

Telling me the playtimes of "most people" vs the "hardcore" doesn't change the fact that the value of a dollar in SK is horrendous vs a sub game, which is the core issue.

To address Alyssin specifically:

This is my first post in these forums. I AM a paying customer. I've started in the realm of around 2 weeks ago I think. I HAVE the spendable income to SPLURGE on this game if I needed to. Also, I'm almost on T3 right now, held back with only one 3* piece, ALL other equipment 4*. Guess how much I spent?

Just Ten Dollars.

Even after spending that, I knew it wasn't even necessary! It was just to cut the "waiting" time to buy some of the recipes and actually craft them in a few short days, without having to worry about if my runs are being economical enough to get the return of CE back from a dungeon run. Yes, It's still actually so cheap to actually get to the highest tier through the crown/CE sink that is crafting instead of me being economical and spending that $10 directly for 4* and 5* equipment. Oh yeah, and I'm still in excess of nearly 2k CE, even after all of that. (Admittedly, I sold the Regalia piece for 1.5k CE, which itself is a cheap selling price, so you can tell I've nowhere been being economical in my in-game transactions either. But seeing how the CE-to-Crown market right now, I think today's market will have similar values as pre-Regalia).

I don't know if you were just doing something wrong by losing CE so reportedly fast, but I too have played 8+ hour days in the weekend, and practically 4 hour playthroughs every weekday these past few weeks (which my wife would attest to >_>). I'm not the most economical trader (hell, I almost never have sold any mats or equipment aside from less than 100 shards altogether... for 30 crown each lol), and I'm already supposedly so far into the game having spent just Just Ten Dollars.