Spiral Knights - Change all dual-type weapons in the game.

Change all dual-type weapons in the game.

16 replies [Last post]

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:16

Glacies

So this is something I've been wondering: If Argent Peacemaker and Sentenza pre-nerf were "weird" and so was Ionized Salt Bomb and Radiant Sun Shards... What about the rest of the Dual-Type weapons, ya know? Brandish Line and Sealed Sword line.

Dual-Type weapons remain insanely overpowered compared to the rest and it really seems unfair that only Swords have dual-type.

I suggest either changing all of them to remain one element or give both Guns and Bombs a dual-type otherwise it just seems outright unfair.

inb4 people rage at me for wanting to nerf one of the main LD weapons.

I'll still use it but it just seems like it needs a nerf if the rest of the dual-types got one too.

EDIT: And Fang of Vog.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:37

Dukeplatypus

Oh wow, we're really out of

Oh wow, we're really out of dual special-type weapons, aren't we?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 21:56

Zeddy

I think part normal is the only thing holding swords back in terms of LD at the moment. Almost every armour has some normal defence and thus can resist every sword except two of them.

In the clockworks, however, the split damage is a severe advantage. Other weapons lose over 80% damage against resistant targets, but swords barely lose 50%. On the flip side, swords still do full specialty damage, gaining just as much damage from neutral to effective as, for instance, DBB or Biohazard charges do.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 21:57

Severage

" Argent Peacemaker and Sentenza pre-nerf"

AP/Sentenza changes from split Piercing/Elemental or Piercing/Shadow was a buff. If there was any doubt, they also got family bonuses. I don't see how that's a nerf.

~Sev

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 06:02

Verodius

@Sev:

It's a buff up until you're up against Beasts/Fiends and realize you all but lost what's basically the only gun that's any good on moving targets.

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 13:08

Severage

@Verodius:

Which, AP and Sentenza never did good damage against Fiends anyway, since half the damage was Shadow or Elemental. AP was the only one who gave orange damage numbers on fiends. Sentenza didn't.

Also, guns are all but useless on fiends in higher tiers regardless of what you're using, since they dodge every bullet. Exceptions might be chromalisks. That said, Beast-family enemies are the easiest mobs in the game anyway. And Sentenza is still viable on beasts if you absolutely must use it, as well as AP being viable on fiends if you really must use it.

But just because AP could shoot fiends, it got punished by being weak to virtually every other family in existence, that's why it was changed. It's now better in PvP, and PvE in all but one scenario. You can't say it's a nerf based on that, when in most cases it's a buff.

~Sev

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 15:50

Addisond

Thought I understood damage mechanics at the time I wrote this, evidently I don't. I guess I'll figure it out soon enough and then I'll be a part of the conversation (if it's still going on).

How are split-damage weapons OP? Please explain, I'm confused by that.

And while I'm waiting, I'll make my own proposal. Do you know how pure swords work? Well, I'd like to see all pure weapons changed to that, and a similar scaling change to split ones. It'd make normal weapons VIABLE for once. As for changing all weapons to pure, that would create an issue with brandishes. They'd get outrageously OP in LD, since defenses are calculated subtractively (as opposed to divisively). This would require some gun/bomb buffs (even more than we already need). And if we changed all weapons to split, it would slow down the pace of LD significantly. And LD isn't built for long battles with such short respawn timers and trips around the map.

Also, as for the pure damage sentenza thing, that was a nerf if you're using an AP for vana or DF vana. And the family damage bonuses don't keep up with inherent bonuses, especially if your bonuses are already maxed.

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 18:05

Klipik

@Sev

What do you mean? I use antigua for fiends in T3 sometimes, and it works fine.

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 19:26

Zeddy

@Addisond

"Do you know how pure swords work?"

I do, because I've done extensive research on the matter. Weapons do not get a "damage bonus" for attacking enemies weak to their damage type. The damage you get from hitting a fiend with a flourish is the sword's proper damage. It then gets defended by a linear amount when you hit an undead. This means that Callahan loses the same amount as Dark Briar Barrage. It means that Callahan's regular shots lose as much as Callahan's charge attack. And, yes, it means the Callahan loses the exact same amount as Final Flourish. There is already no difference between them.

For some reason, the defended amount can be either lower or higher on attacks with particularly low damage, such as shard bombs or regular shots for most handguns.

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 23:59

Severage

@Klipik:

AP still works fine for fiends, yes, but it used to be better on them. Elemental was normal and Piercing was 'super-effective' on Fiends, making it better on Fiends than it is today.

AP was only superior on Fiends prior to the change, and was worse on everything else prior to the change. It now works like a weapon should, with equal amounts of the families being resistant, normal to, and weak to it's damage.

@Addisond: Using gunner gear with two medium bonuses with an AP seems to smooth out nicely on family bonuses, unless you had UVs prior to the change, which are less desirable than ASI/CTR anyway. Though, on AP, CTR isn't really desirable either.

As I've said before, it's a nerf from one-family perspectives, and a buff for just about every other family.

~Sev

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 15:59

#10

Addisond

@zed
So you're saying that the scaling is linear? Given the amount of variation in the damage tables (OOO likes to screw with us) it's rather hard to tell, but it seems to be roughly the same numbers with bombs (linearly). Since guns are what I was comparing this against I can see how I could have gotten confuzzed. Though I've got no clue why they would make the bonuses linear, it seems kinda random to make faster weapons have higher bonuses.

But yeah, now I see the point of this thread. If a bonus is granted regardless of the strength of the strength of the attack, then... wait, what? The penalty should also be the same, but it clearly isn't. Is there something I'm still missing about damage mechanics? Also, I don't think that this is how the AP/sent worked.

@sev
Yeah, but if you're running trinkies it's a pain, and being weaker versus vana makes it much less viable for the FSC in general.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 18:15

#11

Addisond

Mmmk cleared up my questions w/ fehz. I guess I agree with either making all weapons pure or just changing the mechanics on split weapons to only award half the bonus, kinda like AP/sentenza did.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 01:03

#12

Severage

AP is much more useful now in FSC...it may be less useful on Vanaduke (Who really used AP on Vana instead of Blitz though?), but now has both the Family Bonus and pure Elemental damage for the majority of mobs in FSC. It is a better alternative than ever for an FSC sidearm, and was never even competitive compared to how OP Blitz is.

~Sev

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 06:42

#13

Verodius

@Sev:

I admit I don't know precisely how weakness & resistances work, but I'm pretty sure the old AP had the same Weak:Neutral:Strong ratio that the new one has, just arrayed slightly differently (and with slightly more uniform damages):

Undead: 125% Damage (Elemental Weakness increases the Elemental 50% by 50%, making it 75%, Piercing damage is unchanged)
Fiends: 125% Damage (Piercing Weakness increases the Elemental 50% by 50%, making it 75%, Elemental damage is unchanged)

Constructs: 100% Damage (Elemental Weakness nullifies Piercing Resistance)
Beasts: 100% Damage (Piercing Weakness nullifies Elemental Resistance)

Gremlins: 75% Damage (Elemental Resistance decreases the Piercing 50% by 50%, making it 25%, Piercing damage is unchanged)
Slimes: 75% Damage (Piercing Resistance decreases the Piercing 50% by 50%, making it 25%, Elemental damage is unchanged)

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 09:40

#14

Ramboguy

in my land... metal or

in my land... metal or whatever the sword is made of, is hard and if i hit or slash someone with it it hurts so it has normal damage.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 11:54

#15

Severage

@Verodius:

It's been a long time, but I'm pretty sure the old AP was weak on Constructs and Beasts, because the weakness did not "nullify" the resistance as you presume.

Someone who remembers better might know exactly what it was, but I remember quite well that it was a popular complaint that the AP's split damage types made it less useful than it should be (Which is why it was changed). In OOO's patch notes, Nick said the split damage was making the gun work improperly toward families IIRC.

EDIT: Here's the quote of Nick's post:

"After sufficient review it seems clear that these weapons are odd ducks. Dual special damage ends up facing too many weaknesses and results in an incredibly niche weapon."

~Sev

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 20:34

#16

Hexzyle

I can confirm Severage's statement. Research showed that the resistances cut the damage by a whopping amount, and then when the weaknesses were applied, it didn't make up for the amount of damage lost.

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Change all dual-type weapons in the game.