Spiral Knights - Hey everyone, I found a solution to some of LD's balance issues. Sadly, it won't work.

Hey everyone, I found a solution to some of LD's balance issues. Sadly, it won't work.

31 replies [Last post]

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 22:20

Klipik

So, UV's. Anyone who's played a GvG or regular LD match against someone with good UV's will tell you that it's at least a little unfair that the other guy who has the exact same stuff as you is stronger or faster with no downsides. Now, I was thinking about LoL, which has kind of the same thing in the form of runes. (Before I get flamed for missing details here, I don't actually play LoL.) runes basically make a level 30 better than a level 1. But LoL is a huge game with millions of players! How do they avoid the same hate OOO gets for their UV system?

The answer is split play. Level 30s don't play against level ones. OOO has the tier system of course, but at the top level it needs to be divided further. T3 And T2 LD are actually divided into three categories. They are:

1)noobs/inexperienced players
2)experienced players
3)UV'ed players

I won't talk about category 1 much, since everyone goes through that stage and people from categories 2 and 3 should both be able to beat them reliably.
When it comes down to experienced players vs experienced and UV'ed players, the UV'ed players will always win. You can't really argue with that, unless there's a noticeable skill difference or one team has a brain fart. Skill < skill + gear. Some would say that the problem is the UVs and that they should be nerfed. But I realized; the actual problem isn't the UVs themselves. If everyone has UVs, the match works fine. In PvE they aren't exactly necessary, but since you can get the same UVs on everything and it's versus the same enemies every time, UVs aren't a problem there. Furthermore, changing UVs to be better suited to LD would probably result in them being not worth their cost or useless in PvE. No, the problem isn't the UVs themselves, It's what happens when you match UV'ed players up against regulars.

So, what do you do about that? Separate them. UV'ed players play separate from "vanilla" players. This also goes with Thrillhaus's thread about options, which asks for people to be able to edit what you can do in a match (AA, revives, etc).

Now, why is this in General Discussion? Why not Suggestions? Surely it's a suggestion to separate UV players from the rest. Well actually, it's not. And it's not because it's pointless to suggest something that'll never happen.
Yes, you read that right. I broke my own suggestion. This will never happen. Not because of lack of support, or because the game code can't support it. It's because the community can't. Spiral Knights is too small, and the LD playerbase is even smaller. If you actually did this, the number of compatible players to any one person would drop so low, no one would play LD anymore because of the unbearable half-hour wait times between matches. Think of how hard it is to find a T1 LD match right now, then imagine it being like that for every tier. The few players LD has would be spread too thinly.
The only way to make this work is to get about ten times the active players we have now. Sadly, I don't see that happening any time in the near future.
/sigh

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 23:11

Orbwanter

And how many levels of UV would it take to be put in the UV league? Would the person with a poison low Skolver coat be tossed in with the folks wielding ASI VH Flourishes? What about someone with a curse max Divine Mantle? And how would you handle people intentionally skating under the bar, wearing mostly stock gear with UVs only where it'd really count? Or someone whose 'lucky' craft puts them over the top?

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 23:29

Draciusen

You almost forgot

4) Hammers

/shot

Mon, 04/01/2013 - 23:32

Zenpai

"UV" league is stupid. Why

"UV" league is stupid. Why not just make there be an option in the coliseum menu to play lockdown games w/ and w/o UV's? If you select w/o, then all UV's on your gear are disabled. If you select w/, then it's fair game. :I

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 00:23

Slendern

I see non-UV'd strikers

I see non-UV'd strikers continuously outperform UV'd ones. Honestly saying playing with and without them,they don't make all that much of a difference.

Oh and on League's system they don't seperate lvl 1s and 30s because of runes but simply because of experience. Experience and skill in the game is a much bigger impact on your playing the runes or UVs for that matter. Also lvl 30s can still play without runes.

Back on to the subject of UVs, players who are dedicated or find LD fun are usually the ones to buy UVs for it. Meaning that people who buy UVs are dedicated to LD and generally have much more experience in it. You can't just give an ASI VH weapon to a noob and expect them to play well. And frankly speaking good players are able to hit others like 4 times while getting hit back once. If the cause for this is all asi then any vog would be just as untouchable as them.

A much better way would be to rank or tier players based on how well they play, not rank them by the simple fact if they have UVs or not.

I guess what I'm trying to say is UVs don't give a big enough advantage to warrent completely seperating players from eachother.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 02:00

Terra-Necro

um...

There really isn't too big an advantage when vsing a uved player honestly. I have absolutely no asi or ctr uvs on my gear, and I'm able to get the best of most higher-up players (I even made Bulby rage). The only time it would seem more of an unfair fight is if you are fighting two uved players at once, which is already harder than fighting more than one person anyway.

I do not agree with the whole league of uv for LD. Plus, would there be a required number/level of uvs in order to play there? My biggest uv is just shadow med on my skolver cap (I have nothing higher. Low elemental on snarby armor, and nothing on weapons). I rather enjoy playing against my friends, most of whom have some level of asi on their weapons and piercing defense in some uved way.

~Kiryufazer

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 13:22

Klipik

well, I did say it wouldn't work. :P

@Orb: I'm not sure. I didn't exactly flesh out this idea, because as I said I realized halfway through that it will never happen with the game's current playerbase.

@Malsvir: I mentioned that.

@Slender and Terra: yes, non-UV'ed players can beat UV'ed ones. It happens. We've all probably done it at some point. but a majority of the time, if the opponents/opposing teams are of equal or close skill level, whoever has better UV's will determine the outcome. UV's aren't the most deciding factor, but if you have Med+ it really starts to make a noticeable difference. And vog doesn't dominate skolver all the time because skolver has piercing defense and damage bonus, so it takes more hits to kill the skolver AND less hits to kill the vog. Dmg VH against no defense outweighs ASI VH with defense. you can't get in as many hits quickly enough to make up for the extra damage you're taking. If Vog had piercing defense, with no UV's it might be better than skolver, but since you can get ASI UV's on weapons skolver is better in that respect.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 16:10

Kalaina-Elderfall

One thing that nobody really

One thing that nobody really ever mentions in considerations of skill vs gear is the ability to hit a lot of buttons and attack more.

Specifically, shield canceling swords and gun switching. You'll notice everyone who is "good" at Lockdown does one of these two things, and they aren't exactly tactical techniques so much as muscle memory. Being able and willing to hit a lot of buttons should not make you more effective, and yet it really, really does.

IMO, in order of importance:

Not using inferior gear
Shield canceling/gun switching
Skill
Being a striker with heart pendants
UVs on weapons
UVs on armor

So I wouldn't single out UVs as the most broken thing in Lockdown. Addendum here, though, is that a lot of people have their pet peeve weapons that they complain are the main problem with Lockdown (Polaris, hammers), but I honestly think the weapon balance among the usable weapons is pretty good. Just don't try to use Wild Hunting Blade, Iron Slug, or a shard bomb. Or, you know, most of the gear in the game.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 16:59

Tin-Foil-Hat

Lockdowns balance is far more

Lockdowns balance is far more off than that.

You have to factor in UV's, Multiple weapon slots, Multiple weapons, Multiple Status', Multiple players, Lack of Defense received from defensive based armors, over tuned offensive based armors, oh and trinkets.

Its too messy, they need to start from scratch to fix it.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 17:23

Klipik

I'm not saying UV's are the most unbalanced thing in the game - this would just fix that specific problem.

@Kalaina:
"they aren't exactly tactical techniques so much as muscle memory."
This is a video game. being able to execute the commands to perform a certain action will always be a factor. Can you be a grandmaster level SCII player with 20 APM? Can you win a Quake tournament without knowing how to strafe jump? Can you kill someone in Tribes without knowing how to lead a target? It's even the same in real sports. You can't be a good quarterback without having the "Muscle Memory" to know how to throw a good spiral. You can't be a pitcher without having the "Muscle Memory" to throw a curveball, or a slider, or whatever your pitch may be. You can win without doing any of these things, but they are really just learned skills you eventually develop as you play for longer, that increase your effectiveness in a game.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 17:43

#10

Tin-Foil-Hat

@Klip - I know, basically

@Klip - I know, basically what im saying is the amount of factors that are throwing it off balance make the actual PvP part of spirals far too off balance to even think about fixing it piece by piece.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 18:39

#11

Kalaina-Elderfall

Citing other games that also

Citing other games that also follow a bad game design principle doesn't really counter my argument much. The point is, being able to predict where your enemies are going to go, being able to aim at them, and being able to execute tactics that enable your team to control the battlefield are the core mechanics in Lockdown. Hitting the right sequence of buttons over and over in rapid succession isn't.

UVs are, sadly, one of the least broken things about Lockdown. Yes, a mechanic that makes some people explicitly better than others is one of the least broken things.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 18:44

#12

Klipik

By your standards then, what's a game with good, competitive-minded game design? It sounds like you think CoD is a good game for that, since all you have to do is point at a target and hold down the trigger until it dies.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 19:52

#13

Fehzor

Actually, I had this idea the other day while playing lockdown. Seperate out the players like Feller that are like 2 miles better than the rest of us, and the game feels fair- I can get kills sometimes, and it's a much better experience than having my handed to me for 45 minutes.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 20:47

#14

Klipik

More ideas

Another thing along the same lines is an actual working ranking/ladder system, so you could play against people at a more equal apparent skill level. That way UV+experienced/skilled players would play each other, and P2P noobs with good UVs can get put at whatever skill level their gear and autotarget combo spamming manages to boost them to. Unfortunately this ends up in the same boat as the main idea; there aren't enough players to make it happen.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 21:13

#15

Owlert

The LD community is small

The LD community is small enough when it is separated in three categories. From the times I have looked at the player counts, there is rarely more than a hundred or so players at a time in a single tier of LD; separating the playerbase even further would just lead to longer queue times and getting the same people again and again. Thinking from OOO's point of view, however, why would they do this? Many LD players spend a lot of money rolling for their gear. I doubt they would spend as much if they weren't going to get the advantage that they payed for. UVs are such a miniscule factor in terms of balance when compared to striker vs. guardian, FF vs. Neutralizer, Skolver vs. Arcane Salamander, and the uncountable other insane imbalances that OOO seems to blindly look past.

If OOO is going to do anything to balance LD, I don't think the imbalance that gives them the most profit would be the first on their priority.

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 21:19

#16

Klipik

I think you must have missed the part in the OP where I said the exact same things as you about wait times and how they would render this idea unusable. If you read the rest of the thread, you would have noticed many other people also voiced your other point of how UVs aren't the biggest problem.

Remember, this isn't in the suggestions forums because it's not a suggestion, it's not a suggestion because it wont be implemented, it won't be implemented because it won't work.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 05:20

#17

Kalaina-Elderfall

I don't generally play the

I don't generally play the FPS/RTS genres for that very reason. There is plenty of room for learned skill in Lockdown in terms of dodging attacks and predicting movements. Plenty of people confuse the keyboard "techniques" that make you fight faster with actual skill. Instead, they're something you can pretty much write a keyboard macro to do for you automatically - and some people do. If you don't HAVE to kill your hands and your keyboard, why do it? You get the same result, and who's to say using a computer for its intended purpose (not performing repetitive tasks manually) isn't fair to the people who mash keys?

You'll also notice that shield canceling/gun switching are basically what separates the tiers of players - the good players who you actually count in the lobby when determining whether or not your team is going to win and how easily, and the bad players who you don't. If we did have Lockdown with a ladder system, that's basically how it would break down.

Choice of class (aka being a striker with heart pendants) also bests UVs in terms of importance. In addition to having an edge in combat, strikers also have the advantage of moving really fast outside of combat, so they stay dead for shorter, they heal more easily, and they get to capture points quicker. Choosing a team class composition that beats the opposing team's class composition is pretty much not a core mechanic in Lockdown, and it really should be.

The only players who "should" be taking issue with UVs are flourish-spam shield canceling Skolver clones who are too poor to buy an ASI VH flourish. Everyone else has something more important to complain about.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 05:55

#18

Spaznig

And what about macros? All

And what about macros?

All the pros in LD use macros and swing swords non-stop Son Goku-style.

000 should disable the ability to use macros ingame. It's unfair that some people have this advantage with no downsides too.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 07:44

#19

Troupe-Forums

@Spaznig

Would you care to demonstrate to me what these macros do and where I can obtain them (if in fact they do exist) - I'm interested as when I've gone up against some 'pro' players I didn't notice anyone using a macro, and none of my 'pro' friends use macros either.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 08:13

#20

Our-Little-Ajo

What is a Macros??

Really, wtf is that.. ?

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 08:14

#21

Tin-Foil-Hat

Macros ? You mean sequenced

Macros ? You mean sequenced events ? Im pretty sure this game doesnt support that feature, looking at the options->controls-> and yeah. No macroing sequenced events. Even if you could there isnt anything to macro that would even give you an advantage.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 08:45

#22

Our-Little-Ajo

To balance LD

We just need more options, or "find game" feature

*enable/disable UVs (no matter what set you're wearing, the only valid values are the default ones)
*enable/disable Auto Taget
*enable/disable CE Rez
*enable/disable Specs (more spects, more lag)
*enable/disable Pokemons (when we have it of course)

Sad for us, OOO only care about $, €, £ or ¥. So no matter what we suggest, if doesn't increase CE demand, to earn more money, they simply don't care.

Search for Thrillaus suggestion and you will see how a perfect / viable improvement goes down the flush.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 15:27

#23

Zeddy

@Tin-Foil-Hat

I can use an external program to macro gun-switching for me easily. I'm pretty sure rapid-fire infinite-ammo alchemers present a very big advantage. When you can do that and still calmly and collectively aim, it's an even bigger advantage still.

Not saying I've ever done that. In fact, I can honestly say I've never done alchemer-switching my entire life.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 15:36

#24

Tin-Foil-Hat

@Zeddy - Yeah thats about the

@Zeddy - Yeah thats about the only thing i was thinking of when typing in terms of macroing, i could switch shoot with the Naga macro pannel but for the most part i dont find gunners a big threat, but thats probably just my opinion.

Edit - Probably cause i have massive elemental and shadow resistance :P

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 15:34

#25

Hariender

@ zeddy

have you try alch switch on new ui? :3 i heard its very "fancy" &"raising" framerate.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 16:36

#26

Bluefire-Bl

hammers

i think ppl with hammers are a little overpowered

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:32

#27

Agazide

Moo

I don't think it's a problem. Occasionally all the players with top UVs will be stacked onto one team, but the law of averages wins out over time.

As someone who's played a decent amount of LD and lacks epic UVs, I can say that the presence of players with epic gear in LD doesn't bother me much. Like most people, I play more than one LD game in a row - they're going to be on my team about half the time.

The idea of having toggleable options for LD sounds good, but there aren't enough players online at any given time to run games that fit each combinations of options avalible.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:08

#28

Klipik

@everyone talking about macros: in case you didn't know, macros are against the terms of service. So if you can prove (like actually prove, not just guess) that someone is using a macro, report them.

@Kalaina: there's nowhere further to go on this, we just have different definitions of skill. I say that learned techniques like shield canceling, strafe jumping, throwing a Mariano Rivera cutter, etc are skills. You say they aren't. I would like to try and convince you otherwise, but that would be off topic.

@Aga: The point isn't which team wins or loses. It's the players that can, wether due to gear or skill, tip the balance and determine which team wins. Because each tier has an extremely large range of player effectiveness, there should be some sort of subdivision for this. Also, keep in mind that I know and have mentioned multiple times the problems with game population and how they render this suggestion impossible to implement. Hence, why it's not in the Suggestions forum.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:30

#29

Tin-Foil-Hat

@Klipik - Is that true ?

@Klipik - Is that true ? Never knew that, even though i dont use them thats good to know now.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 23:02

#30

Klipik

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Terms_of_service#6._Restrictions

ToS 6.13 "You agree not to do any of the following prohibited actions:...modify any files or use any game hacking/altering/cheating software or tools, including scripting or macroing software, or attempt to disassemble the game client and/or decipher the data transmissions between Spiral Knights' client and server. These activities will result in immediate termination of the Player's Account and may subject you to civil and/or criminal liability.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 19:44

#31

Skold-The-Drac

@macros

How can they track your macros too easily if an external macro can send essentially the exact same info your muscle-memory can?
You'd have to know at least two things to even report the person that you can't ever know due to the program the game is on.
Could that seemingly perfect switch have been a spike in latency?
Is it a macro executing the same information that your neural network can essentially match with enough practice (given the macro can be programmed properly to mask an instantaneous command.)?

Only way to know either is to have way too much time and money on your hands. Or if OOO monitors the match and server information with better reading ability than Link from The Matrix.

I'm not recommending macro-usage, or breaking TOS. I'm just saying cheaters will cheat, and if they know enough, then they'll be able to cover their tails too.