Spiral Knights - Why I think that OOO knows jack about where they are going

Why I think that OOO knows jack about where they are going

11 replies [Last post]

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 12:15

Jidosha

Disclaimer
In the following I will not talk about what the players of this game think because I obviously never started a survey on it. It's all theoretical, applying basic sociological ideas to the concept of a fictional goverment - citizen relation. In this case, the fictional relation is the very real relation between the players and the game they are playing.

First of all I should explain what I find to be the most important aspects of this game, which need to be attended to as soon as possible:
- Balancing existing gear
- Encouraging exploration
- Adding new areas
- Fixing existing bugs

Why those are important may not seem to obvious at first, but can be summed up in one sentence:
They are the fundamentals of this game.
The combat system is already fun and the "ever-changing Clockwork" is what they praise most in their trailer. If "Combat" and "Enviroment" become established in a way that they have no more flaws the game could run on it's own, without need to add new game mechanics. If they keep adding new mechanics to an already malfuntioning system, future problems will become more and more difficult to correct.

Can be compared to:
"Buying a new TV when you are already indebted." - it's shiny and new, but it will only add to your problems in the future.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 12:16

Jidosha

Doing as they please

This one is the most present mistake they made, which is why I chose to start with it.
Generally, it is their game, so of course they are free to do with it what they want. That is, if they don't want to make money, which is necessary to keep on doing what they want in the long term. Here, it is paramount to know when to introduce something you want to see and when to restrain yourself for the greater good.

In the most recent case, "Dash" and "Bash" features have been added to the game. They were unexpected and as far as I can remember never really asked for by players. But what is the problem? It didn't introduce much new to the game and was rather unnecessary, as it didn't fix anything. That much is obvious, but the problem lies deeper:
They decided to take two steps in introducing this feature. The first was announcing they were working on something completly unrelated instead of more pressing matters. The second was to admit they have been putting work into it and still taking another month to get them live. (Facebook, 30. April: "Been working on these for a while, and now they're in a state where we can announce them... Dash and shield bash!")

Why is this important?
While there are many things that need to be done and which have been requested several times, things that should be done, but have yet to see a satisfying solution, or just good ideas, that would change something for the better they decided to do something else. Sacrificing time and money on something that was not really needed. How people recieved it is a thing I dare not address, as I didn't ask anyone for their opinion.
The problem with this is, that it didn't have the effect it needed to have, to be a real success. That is simply due to the fact, that it doesn't provide a real game breaker - the aspect it build on worked fine before, and still does. You can do everything you could do before just fine without it.

Which leads us to the conclusion of why this was a mistake:
People will think they have been either disregarded or that the time could have been spent otherwise. The update was "not worth it" because it felt out of place. It is not a bad update, but due to it's timing it should theoretically leave a bad aftertaste to the players. Dash and bash are just an example for why this kind of approach can be tricky.

Can be compared to:
"Painting the garage while the house is on fire." - Makes some people happy, but makes others question your priorities.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 12:16

Jidosha

Doing what is needed vs. doing what a group of players want

This one's a bit older and a lot easier to explain.
When they chose what to do, they turned to the community. That is, of course, a good thing. However, they made a grave mistake here and turned to those that yelled the loudest - announcing the introduction of pets into the battle system. In it self pets are not a bad thing. It can very well be that they are fun to use and a generally good addition, but given other matters this is highly unlikely and will definitly make future work with the battle system more difficult.

The mistake here is not too difficult from the above one: Using time on something that is not necessary, disregarding more pressing things.
But this one goes even further - it actually shows how shortsighted and questionable their judgement is. While there are two parties that are yelling for something, balancing and pets namely, they chose to side with those who got shot down the moment they issued their idea. They went with "adding the new" in favor of "fixing the old" for what can be assumed to be monetary reasons.
Players who freshly joined the game wish for pets, so in order to lure more new players in and hold those that have just joined it would seem like a reasonable thing to do. After all, the old players are still there and the old content didn't drive all of them off, right?
Here comes the catch: Pets alone will not make them stay. They will always will want something new. If it's not pets it will be dual wielding. If it's not dual wielding it will be something else. We are already seeing this effect right now. Additionally, even if they somehow actually manage to not break the system any further, the content will not change. Killing Vanaduke with or without pets is not much different then killing Vanaduke with or without a dash and a bash feature.
One has to admit, though, that a "gonna catch 'em all" feature can be seen as a additional incentive. Again, it's not a bad idea, but it's just not the right time and again, this is only an example for bad decision making.

However, what are the consequences? Players should feel estranged by this more than anything else. The company that they should trust and pay, decides to side with those who have yet to serve time in "their" (the "veterans'") game. They have been ignored in favor of a party they deem as unexperienced and unfamiliar with the system which is honestly not always wrong. A "lower" caste that should first earn their say in such matters. Do not get me wrong, being a new player is not tantamount to their ideas being bad - it is that in this case the idea was in every way it was proposed plain bad and also from those who were clearly new to this.
Their decision to take on pets was by all means unexpected and gave rise to speculations. It is such things that hurt the trust between players and company, which would eventually lead to resignation on one side.

Can be compared to:
"Taking care of children and giving the younger, immature kids candy because they hurt themselfs, while scolding the others for not taking care of them." - Making those who can help you the least your friends for like 5 minutes while everyone else starts hating you.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 12:17

Jidosha

Keeping in touch

Last but not least, I want to address their stance on suggestions and the standing of the game. It has been said a few times now, especially the last month they have heard quite a lot about how they need to communicate more with the players.
What I want to say, however, is not that the direct developer - community interaction needs to be strengthend, but that the developer - player communication needs to be better.
What is the difference?
To put it plainly, the community are you, those who play read and post in the forums. The players are everyone who plays the game. The problem here is not that they don't react to your suggestions directly, but that they don't react at all. That, what is really necessary, is that they give a statement about the momentary status of the game. If they would stop keeping us in the dark it would greatly benefit their customer relations. A simple "we now gear is horribly unbalanced and we are working on it" would save them so incredibly much trouble.

Somewhere I do think I read that they "don't want to disappoint us" and don't tell us anything because of that until the very last minute. Which would fit some of their behaviour, but I could be remembering wrong.
That is the worst possible thing they can do. (In regard to the momentary situation of the game.)
Why? Because we don't have a working system here. If Spiral Knights was a flawless game, balanced and refined, where everything they gave us would be a completly new addition building that doesn't interfere with what we had till now, then and only then, this would be viable. But it isn't. It's far from that. They are working on something that is still half in development and they obviously need to earn the players trust. "Yes, we ARE working on something". "NO, we did not abandon you".
There is a saying that "it will happen right when the core opens", meaning that something will never occur. In general you can take that as a really bad sign of what the people think of the way you work.

Can be compared to:
This - Working in the dark limits your view on things quite a lot.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 13:21

Atacii

...

Perfect gear balance is not necessarily a good thing. Too many choices can be off-putting, especially for newer players.

On encouraging exploration/adding new areas... No one does Compounds, or CW at all. No one does Danger Missions. No one does SLs or OCH other than to pick up the equips. While I agree with you on this point, the community obviously doesn't.

Fix the bugs? You have to be more specific. Any computer program of sufficient size will have bugs. It is unavoidable. A more meaningful argument would be of the form, 'Bug X should have been fixed before Feature Y was released' or 'Bug Z should be fixed ASAP'.

While I haven't found much use for Bash, Dash was a most welcome change. And as it has been said before, OOO devs work on several things concurrently, so them working on a problem for a month does not mean that's all they were doing for that month.

Your whole argument against Pets is ridiculous. The fact that the community will eventually want something else new can be applied to anything, including weapon balancing. And as for acknowledging the issue with weapon imbalance, OOO went one step further and administered a fairly in-depth survey to the community on the issue.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 14:09

Aumir

*Boots up account*

Well, I dunno if I should talk cause of not playing more by now and/or cause I suggested a "counterattack" system which spent shield... but Dash and Bash are similar though different. But well:

What we, or at least ME, need is some motivation to play. Long term motivation is what people need. And not just a new set of levels, we need to be entertained as this game intended: to give us randomized gameplay that is worth doing instead of King of Ashes over and over and over again. New sets of levels are small patches that just entertain for a week to get all new stuff and then back to grinding/Lockdown.

Why people play Lockdown? Because playing against players gives new reactions and they aren't AI fixed. Also they serve to showoff, which should also be of use for Arcade and I don't mean "look at how many crowns I got this week", something like "this guy could beat a Tier 3 room that had an outrageously high difficulty that he could set up freely without a limit, and didn't die". I suggested some "increasing difficulty" system for non-boss Clockworks depending on your progress... but I don't think that is enough. Maybe an infinite depth (with no cost and no Crown and maybe no heat - due to amplifiers - drops) dungeon where leading deep enough may net rewards could help. Also a new PvP mode of "win as many 1vs1 duels and get rewards if you resist a lot of opponents" could also help - provided there were safety measures to no exploit that.

Maybe pets will bring an assortment of things to do to get them all dispersed in the Clockworks, I don't know. Though knowing OOO it will just be "hey, pay us energy to improve your pet!".

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 15:30

Luguiru

Nick said the reason for Spiralmon is because so many people asked for it, yet I see almost as many people with far more worthwhile and intelligent reasons for things this game needs as you and I and many others have posted about and reposted a few times because the swarms of idiots will always drown us out in their mind numbing nonsense. Seems like their plan is to make quick cash grabs while new players are fresh and oblivious, then when the confetti and glitter is done falling everyone goes home unsatisfied. With the balance survey a couple months ago they at least asked what the players think of their product but whether they listen to us or do whatever they want is up to how long we can wait for them to use that feedback. Then again they could have only made that survey to give us the illusion of their caring. Again then hens in pens they could be working on rebalancing the game as I type this sentence and when this post goes up it pops up on a screen in their lunch room everyone laughs at it.

Maybe by 2014 they might buff Spur line by buffing its damage to be as good as Iron Slug and the market will drown in twenty reskins of the same equipment models, each more frivolous and shiny than the last, until eventually people will be walking around with Wolver completely covered in chrome.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 15:48

Burq

ok what?

@Atacii

You do realize the only reason people dont play the CW anymore is because the missions (and specifically FSC) not only give a MUCH better payout but also take less energy to do? And even then, people STILL have to play the CW because of recipe runs or for fun now and again (I can say I have done Vana over 200 times, it gets so very boring), I'll give you the comment on OCH and the SL's, thou; people usually only play those once and they are done.

If OOO actually balanced the crown payout of FSC (thou that would cause tremendous rage of the like we have rarely seen) or, better yet, balance the crown pay out of the CW to match the missions or FSC, I bet that a crap ton of people would play the CW more.

Because seriously, I've done CW runs were all of stratum 5 and 6 (with an arena) gave me 5300 cr; took 90 mist (well, 100 mist because of a rev) to only give me a paltry sum compared to FSC and it 7800 -8100 cr payout for only 50 mist (I've done it so much, I only die from lagging anymore and it's way easier to find a party for it), it's no wonder people ignore the CW.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 17:50

Neodasus

Expect a cataclysm-esque

Expect a cataclysm-esque patch in the future. I'm expecting it, so should you. They're working on it, I can definitely tell.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 19:22

Voza-Il

^ Well, the patches are

^ Well, the patches are getting worse and worse, zo yeah, its definitely coming.

@OP
Didn't really read wat u posted tbh, cause most of it is probably true anyways.
I would prefer a player-rating thread, where players rate the gameplay experience on factors predetermined, because it takes up WAY less room and gets across a similar yet slightly more vague message than paragraphs such as this one.

For example, say the factors to rate are (I'll only list 9 for the purpose of example):
Art
Mechanics
Balance
Community
PvP
PvE
Variety
Challenge
Care of players

Then everyone who posted could just put:
Art-10
Mechanics-6
Balance-7
Community-8.5
PvP-8
PvE-7.5
Variety-6
Challenge-8
Care of players-4

(yea, those are my actual opinions on the game. And care of players means how well devs make sure the players' experience is optimal. Gained points only because of how nice GMs are, but lost major points for the blatant ignoring of player suggestions and obvious ways to improve the game.)

A thread like that should, but probably wouldnt, give the Devs the serious hint they need that they should act on players' suggestions and not put in stupid stuff like pokemon, or buff good weapons (brandish patch anyone?) while leaving crap weapons like winmillion crappy. Though the dash was pretty sweet, i gotta say.

TL;DR
Game is good
could use more variety
GMs rock (9/10)
Devs (in terms of player awareness) DEFINITELY don't rock (2/10)
Prestige missions are sick

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 20:33

#10

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop

I agree with a lot of what you said, but as much as I agree with you, a lot of it is still a bit of speculation and assumption on the inner workings of the SK team. Once everything gets down to us, we don't know who called the shots on certain projects or who actually goes through and gives the "OK" to the few suggestions that make it through.

What we do know for certain though, is that the OOO team devoted to SK is pretty small and limited in manpower. While we can't expect super-packed content explosions for updates, we can at least expect them to fix the little things while working towards bigger things.
And THAT is where the problem lies.
There's always been bug fixes and internal stuff being done, which has helped make the game pretty stable, but the changing of tiny variables and things to try to balance gear and enemies has just never been there. The only times that they ever do change them is when they change loads of other variables (monster attack mechanics, monster attack speed, etc.), which just creates a whole new landscape to be balanced for. Then they balance things for that new landscape while changing too many other things, leading to another landscape they need to balance the gear towards. The worst part is that in between these updates are months and months of time where nothing is happening.

As for the new content that they are generating (Missions, Dash n' Bash, UI Update, and probably Battle Sprites), which we're not sure who's giving the order for, it's as you said. Very very little of it is aimed towards engaging the "veteran" playerbase. Most of it seems to be trying to pull in a crowd that either just barely touched the game or haven't even played it yet. It's nothing that the vets can really go all in on. Nothing for them to further progress towards. It's just backtracking to new content added onto the start of the game.
What any MMO needs to stay alive is constant progression towards new end goals or just new playable T3 content (and a lot of it. Not just one new level type that barely introduces anything new). It's really surprising that SK still even HAS veteran players.

And the whole FSC payout thing is something that OOO should have taken care of ages ago. It's absolutely ridiculous that they've barely touched it at all, yet they've adjusted payout on IMF and RJP. It just doesn't make sense.

I guess it just really bugs me because SK has always had this really beautifully crafted solid base to build off of and they haven't really done anything with it. They're instead putting decorations on the base to attract people to them while everyone who's already there is waiting for them to build on that base.

Fri, 06/14/2013 - 21:01

#11

Klipik-Forum

I said this already.

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Why I think that OOO knows jack about where they are going