Can Spiral Knights Recapture Its Glory Before It's Too Late? - A Big Picture Analysis
Do, 04/11/2013 - 02:36
I'm writing this post to explain to Spiral Knights' developers my perspective of what's really behind all the recent fan rage, and to recommend steps for turning their ship around while they still can.
Who am I? I'm Gametrekker, a longtime fan of the game. I have well over a thousand hours of gametime logged, and I'm a Guild Master in a very active guild. I have also been studying game design intensely for two decades. I'm here on these forums to point out what others may not be seeing, and to show those at OOO how I can further lend them my aid.
Right now, I am seeing an unprecedented number of Spiral Knights fans giving up on the game. At the same time, I have been seeing a massive backlash occurring on these forums (and elsewhere) that's directed at OOO in response to changes to the game's user interface.
Why is this happening?
To find the answer, we must first consider why Spiral Knights has a fan base in the first place.
Spiral Knights is the first significantly successful game of its kind: a free-to-play arcade-MMO. Its fan base manifested based on what the game did that other games did not. The biggest example of this was its challenging yet rewarding skill-based combat, also known as arcade gameplay. No other MMO plays like Spiral Knights. In fact, precious few games that have been released in the past decade play like Spiral Knights, especially if you only consider games that have multiplayer. The market was craving a game like this, and OOO delivered… for a while.
For reasons unknown to us fans, this is no longer the case. OOO has now been making many changes to the game that have been progressively turning it into something else, something it wasn't designed to be. Based on the changes I've seen so far, it seems to me that this new direction is designed to turn Spiral Knights into a more casual game that appeals to a younger audience.
This is exactly the opposite of what Spiral Knights needs to maximize its profits.
Spiral Knights needs to remain true to itself in order to succeed. Its design is not compatible with casual gaming. Even if it were, the casual market is extremely highly saturated at the moment. Also, a younger audience has less money to spend on a free-to-play game than an older audience. Continuing on its current track, OOO will end up competing for fewer paying customers.
Spiral Knights needs to remain true to itself in order to succeed. Its original design was deeply in touch with the fundamentals of arcade and multiplayer game design. It was a very unique product, and attracted an audience very willing to pay for the experience. This audience has been very loyal as well, holding out hope for over a year that OOO will finally wake up to what's best for the game. Getting back on its original track, OOO would be claiming an empty market that contains a higher percentage of paying customers.
In other words, we played Spiral Knights not because we wanted it to change, but because we liked it the way it was. This is the case for all fan bases. Fans don't want the product they love to become something different; they want their current experience to be enhanced and expanded. We want more levels. We want more weapons. We want balance. We want to see more of the awesome world that OOO has created.
So why has the new HUD resulted in such a negative reaction? The reality is that the HUD itself is only a part of the reason for the ire. The HUD is actually more along the lines of the straw that broke the camel's back. Even if we may not have fully realized what was going on, a huge portion of Spiral Knights' fan base has been semi-aware for a while now that something isn't right with the changes to the game. With these latest updates, an increasing number of us are waking up to what's happening.
Missions eliminated the game's sense of exploration. Nerfing the enemies so much eliminated the game's challenge. Failing to properly balance the weapons after two years is another signal to us fans to not expect the game to improve. Not balancing Arcade Mode against Mission Mode, particularly regarding the boss areas (especially FSC), has resulted in the game becoming a grind fest. The Black Kat event infuriated many of us for many reasons. We were once excited for every update to the game. Now we try not to care so we aren't disappointed.
Spiral Knights is no longer the game we loved.
As more and more of us realize this, more and more of us are either leaving or raising our voices in protest.
The backlash on these forums is a small, visible portion of a much larger negative reaction, like the tip of an iceberg. A lot of the older fans among us are used to being dismissed as inconsequential by gaming companies, like Nintendo, who are blind to why people once liked their games. Now these fans see OOO being blind too and they just accept their fate. In other words, a huge portion of Spiral Knights' fan base has learned not to speak up, and is leaving silently. These players are a critical part of the game's audience and will return if OOO gives them a reason to do so!
While some of us are leaving, others are no longer willing to passively accept our fate. We're tired of giving up on franchises that were once awesome. We're tired of seeing wasted potential. We're tired of seeing rare treasures taken from us, particularly when we don't have anywhere else to go. As I said earlier in this post, there is nothing else on the market that's anything like Spiral Knights.
For myself, I care about this game too much to let it go. I'm enthusiastically dedicated to doing everything I can to preserve my game experience. I want Spiral Knights to be a game that I can enjoy playing for many more years. As I see it, Spiral Knights can again be a beacon of hope in these dark times. The Legend of Zelda left this market long ago. Spiral Knights can be the new Zelda, a better Zelda than Zelda ever was. I'd love to see this happen, and I know it's possible.
However, as far as I can tell, this will only be possible through a paradigm shift at OOO. All of the company's next steps must be carefully considered with the customers' interest in mind. As with any paradigm shift, this requires learning to think differently. This isn't always easy, and yet, when in active dialogue, all parties can refine their thinking.
Oh and just so you know, this needs to happen as soon as possible. :)
The iceberg is approaching, but the ship can still be saved. How can OOO escape these treacherous waters?
First, know who we are. We like arcade gameplay. We like our games to reward skill and intelligence. We like our games to be difficult but fair. We like rich universes to explore. Above all, we like quality.
We're the ones holding this intervention. We're the fans who want to support this game and see it return to glory. We bring our friends to the game. We buy Elevator Passes every month. We've stuck with the game through thick and thin. We're the ones who see what's here. We are the ones who care.
We are the engine of Spiral Knights' expansion. Keep us fueled and happy, and the game will prosper!
As it's often said, the first step towards fixing any problem is being aware that it exists. Awareness opens the door to new possibilities. I'm hopeful that the content I have presented here so far has opened OOO's eyes to the situation at hand.
As I see it, OOO, you now have a great opportunity to turn your ship around. What follows are a number of recommendations to support you in doing this, both short-term and long-term.
Before I get to them though, I want to say that there is a lot of nuance to this situation that can't be covered in this post alone. The best way for me to properly convey my perspective and suggestions to you, OOO, is through direct communication and dialogue. I'm available to be an ally for you in resolving these issues.
So, the first step towards regaining our trust is to show us fans how serious you are about giving us back the game we loved. This can be done by implementing an option in Spiral Knights' graphics menu to switch between the new and old HUDs. I'd label them "Shiny" and "Classic" respectively. Certain features of the new HUD that everyone seems to like, such as the new Mission Complete screen, can be applied to the old HUD if you're very aware of which features qualify as this. Your going that extra mile will show us even more that you're both paying attention and putting effort into what you're doing.
The second step is communication. Tell us in a big forum post that you're more deeply considering our feedback and that you're now in the middle of some critical reconsideration of your direction with the game. Also tell us that the option to switch to the old HUD is presented as a demonstration of your seriousness about this. This step is important because, from what I've seen, OOO currently has the reputation of not understanding customer feedback beyond bug reports.
Let me address that last point right there in a bit more detail. There is a big difference between listening to feedback and properly integrating it. It's clear that you do your best to listen, OOO. If you didn't, you wouldn't be reading this post. However, many of us players are currently convinced that you can't comprehend our constructive comments, and it's not for no reason that we think this.
We longtime fans have been trying to tell you what we want for quite a while now, and our experience is that you have been blind to our input. Even when you do seem to take our feedback, you tend to miss why we're giving it. The biggest example of this I can think of is Battle Sprites. The design for them that you unveiled earlier this year is a recipe for disaster if implemented, as I explained in another post on these forums. It completely missed why players had been asking for pets, and threatened to fundamentally change the game in ways most of its user base would greatly dislike. OOO, we would really appreciate it if you would take the time understand us so you can work with us. Part of doing this involves learning to distinguish between feedback that aims to preserve or enhance the game's original vision and feedback that aims to subvert it. I'm available to explain this further through live conversation.
Let's say you go through those two steps I listed, then. Will they recapture your audience? Well, they will to some extent. They'll certainly rekindle our excitement for what's to come. However, a lot of us don't have much to do in Spiral Knights these days. The King of Ashes has become the entire game for many players, and believe us, if we just wanted a game where we could fight zombies all day, we'd have tons of other options of games to play. So what can be done that will keep us playing Spiral Knights?
I could just sit here and say things like "More balance!" and "New weapons!" But fans have been asking for these things for a long time already. There's something more core that needs to be addressed here, something far more important for the long-term.
Understanding its audience is the key to OOO's success.
I've presented quite a bit of pertinent information about Spiral Knights' audience in this post, yet what I've said here doesn't fully cover what it takes to properly understand a user base. It involves learning how to consider what the audience's reaction will be before making each update to the game. It involves learning how to consider the ramifications of possible actions. It involves learning how to be in tune with the wants and needs of the audience every step of the way.
To say this in as simple a way as possible, the solution is that OOO be able to see the game, along with the updates being developed for it, from the perspective of the players. Once the developers can do this, they'll know how to proceed in a way that preserves and enhances the integrity of the product.
Understanding the customer is key in any business. Due to Spiral Knights being continually updated, this key is even more essential for the team behind it. Synergy with the customers' wants and needs is necessary to ensure that the right updates get developed for the game and that they're implemented properly. This key is what OOO ultimately needs to free it from the current turmoil and unlock Spiral Knights' full potential.
I have one last thing to say directly to OOO here: If it is indeed your intent to radically alter the nature of the game of Spiral Knights, we fans want you to be upfront about it with us. You have left us in the dark about the big picture for a year now, and part of why we're speaking up is to bring about more communication and clarity between us and the team. We want to work with you, not against you. This means substantive, back-and-forth dialogue on a regular basis. It's up to you to give us that chance.
In summary: Spiral Knights is being changed into something incompatible with the original vision behind its design. That's the real reason why OOO is getting all this flak and why so many players are abandoning the game. In order to help the game escape mediocrity and/or collapse, we ask the developers to reconsider their strategy regarding their direction with the product. We also ask for a return to the fundamentals of arcade and multiplayer game design. We want them to consistently consider their audience, their actual audience, when making decisions.
-
I have great passion for this game and for working to ensure it fulfills its potent and awe-inspiring potential. I'm very available to support OOO in any way that could be helpful. In case it isn't clear, if we were to talk live, I would be able to provide a great deal more detail, nuance and insight regarding everything discussed in this post. [Years-later edit: You know how to reach me.]
Also, while I've put a lot of time and energy into thinking all of this through, there could still be information or context that I'm missing. If anyone reading this has further insights that could deepen my understanding of how to best serve OOO and its customers, feel free to let me know. In fact, I welcome contact from anyone who shares my feelings on this subject, or who just wants to have a chat with me for any reason. I'm GameTrekker on both AIM and Skype, if either of those are the most convenient way for anyone to get in touch with me.
Let's all put our heads together and make this game shine brighter than it ever has before.
In closing, I want to thank you for taking the time to read and consider my ideas. I spend many of my waking hours thinking about game design optimization. I therefore greatly appreciate the opportunity to present my perspectives to those who can make a difference.
For the Spiral Order!
Noah Sablosky
Do, 04/11/2013 - 05:30
#2
We also want the old shard bombs back. Those were nifty.
Maybe that's just me at this point.
Do, 04/11/2013 - 09:15
#3
One thing that turns me off from any game is fighting a dumb AI which gets supplemented by crowds. Just because there are derpbillion rocks with angry eyebrows does not mean any of them are challenging to fight, but it does make the game lag from all the everything going on at once. But if you take out the lag and compare twenty T3 Chromalisks to three T3 Devilites, which would people have more difficulty against?
I remember a few months ago and a little while following there were threads popping up about making the game more difficult by what some people with a lot of gaming competence call "fake difficulty". Fake difficulty is using things like increased health, increased damage, or increased numbers as a replacement for a smarter and more difficult to fight AI. Fake difficulty used to be a problem for this game but as the months passed someone who had a few too many shots of liquor apparently decided we needed things dumbed down while our weapons get boosted. Why? Because death, death, devil de-
I think the janitor with five eyepatches may have had something to do with it. He always gives me these weird looks.
Do, 04/11/2013 - 09:18
#4
Might want to delete your number and email from the post
... just saying.
Except for that, I wholeheartedly agree - I just don't really think they will listen.
Do, 04/11/2013 - 13:24
#5
Also, I think it's a shame there's no way to directly contact OOO, like with an email or something. It would be a great idea to send this to them.
Do, 04/11/2013 - 20:34
#6
DO NOT EVER, EVER, EVER USE THE PHRASE "PARADIGM SHIFT". IT ANGERS ME.
Other than that, sorry I missed your thread from before. I was sort of on hiatus from the suggestions forum at the time. Anyway, I agree with your sentiment. I'm not really seeing sudden emigration that you're talking about, but I definitely understand the troubles of SK with regards to retention. It kinda feels like players are just sort of flowing through spiral knights instead of staying and playing, since there isn't really an endgame. And that whole "players don't have anything to do" thing rings true for me- I'm constantly logging on, saying hi, idling in the guildhall catching up with people, and then when the conversation dies I realize that there's nothing I want to do in the game. So yeah, full support from me. But I remember Nick saying something in an interview about having "an ardent playerbase" that wants the game to go in one direction, while OOO wants it to go in another. Unfortunately, I cannot find this and I don't know why :/ Regardless, I feel that this was the issue he was talking about (more or less) so I don't think you'll have much luck persuading him. Others have tried.
And as for what lug said about monster stupidity- I don't really feel like this is actually a problem. Monster stupidity is, imo, one of the driving concepts of the game. You're SUPPOSED to manipulate them and predict their movements ("manipulate" does not involve trojans/forcefields, or shield bumping monsters into walls so they get concussions and walk into walls indefinitely). However, the fact that they are so non-threatening makes them laughable. Their attacks just need to be bigger, faster, and sometimes home in on players.
EDIT: lol, I just found the interview that I thought that thing about SK's direction was in. But for some reason I can't find the quote. Huh. (also, you asked like three of the questions :O)
Do, 04/11/2013 - 23:57
#7
You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!
Wow...
Sir, I'd hire you if I was at the point of my life where I could own a game company.
I do agree. The main charm behind playing this game was the Arcade. Story is great, I'll agree, but...currently the game is focused on grinding for most players. Hiding the cr won't fix that.
I'm dieing to see the player base shift back to the Arcade. That'd revive the game for me and give it a new life. I would be more that happy. As a matter of fact, it is this game's randomness of the Arcade which inspired me to make CradleBound, the fangame I'm getting ready to make. I love what this game was. My greatest hope for it is that that comes back.
Also, the HUD reverting is a good idea.
sadly OOO wouldnt read your awesome review gametrekker
OBJECTION!!!
Yes, they read it. They just don't reply. idk if they'll contact this guy, but the 2 decades of studying this thing sounds promising.
Fr, 04/12/2013 - 02:44
#8
"I forgot why I loved Spiral Knights in the first place." - Dragneel after going to Arcade, from a long time.
The Charm of Spiral Knights.
People call it childish, yet it has mature people more than any other game.
People call it cartoonish, yet it has an amazing artwork, better than any other game.
People call it grindish, yet it has a place called: Arcade, for exploring and adventuring.
People call it stupid, yet it has many innovative ideas that you can't see unless you venture in the game.
What else can I say?
But to be honest and fair, OOO is a Small Team of designers, developers etc... Actually, they are doing very well for a crew with that size. But, that doesn't mean they can lead the game to its own grave by their own will. As you stated in your post, Spiral Knights isn't Spiral Knights anymore. Heck even the community changed. Beggers and Scammers increased because of the new, immature, dumb and stupid audience that came to the game, because they saw a Free-to-Play game, which is far more easier than any other MMO. I know that OOO listens to the community, but in most cases, they don't listen. Or, they used to listen, but stopped lately. Take the Radiant Sun Shards as an example. I'm sure that 90% of the people disagreed on changing it, yet OOO decided to go on and ignore the requests. Same happened for the new UI. Loads of people disagreed, and yet another ignorance occurs.
And what makes me mad sometimes, is that OOO implements few, repetitive, and usually unnecessary ideas from the Suggestion Sub-Forum. Take the pets as an example. Why pets?! I still don't understand why they ignored all the awesome, amazing, well-done suggestions, and worked on a stupid thing, that doesn't relate to SK in any way. I'm sure that there will be much more rage when Pets come. Why? After the UI update, I have the feeling that the Pets are going to be disappointing.
Oh, did I mention you are in my "To Recruit" list for OOO. Besides Zopyros-II for designing, and you... What for? Community Manager? I don't care, you will fit anywhere I suppose...
/Salutes to Old Spiral Knights...
Fr, 04/12/2013 - 03:01
#9
The papaya smiles
Ah, back in the ol' days, when missions didn't exist :P And tortodrones were busy smashing the papaya outta me XD
Sa, 04/13/2013 - 06:54
#10
+1 to Gametrekker
Before, i saw Devilites and said:"NO! Devilities! It's the END". Now, i see a Devilities and said:"Devilities? OK, I'll fight against them".
What I like about the Spiral Knights is the difficulty.
Sa, 04/13/2013 - 07:20
#11
This is the most logical post about the new design I have ever seen. I've been thinking about leaving this game, and I saw your post... It worded exactly how I felt. It wasn't verbatim or even almost verbatim, but It's more logical and detailed.
Mo, 04/15/2013 - 21:02
#12
as a student of game design,
as a student of game design, I can see you have good reasoning abilities, and perhaps a background in analyzing game design as well. the fact of the matter is, you have a great point, SK is moving further away from it's original formula, which is changing the game. not always bad, but changing a game in any way, will ALWAYS result, in loosing people. the key, to adding new content to any game, is first understanding why the original content is successful with the games community.
looking at Richard A. Bartle's analysis of player types from MUD RPGs, ( http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm ) we can see some of the player types that are attracted to SK, and what parts of the game likely appeal to them. it's impossible to appeal to every gamer at the same time, and increasing game play elements that attract one type of player, usually result in alienating another type of player in the long run. OOO's needs to figure out who their "target" audience is, and focus on appealing to them.
until that happens, we can expect to see more content that doesn't seem to appeal to anyone in particular, and is likely the result of different game designers fighting each others ideas and finally coming to some sort of compromise. lack of good interface design is usually a result of lack of design experience and testing. if this new GUI wasn't telling of their current design process, I don't know what is.
that said, the OP is right, all hope is not lost, as OOO's is still making money, and has the power to repatch the game in anyway they see fit. any change however, requires time, and lots of money. here's my suggestion.
now, I'm not an expert, but here is what I might do in your shoes.
"either encourage some of your employees to come up with some ways to improve the game for your intended audience by adding some "incentives" like bonuses, whatever if need be, or have your team coordinator/project manager prioritize "new designs to improve gameplay for intended audience" in the development pipeline. If your company for some reason lacks the funding or time to apply such changes, then put the ideas, design changes, and everything else you intend to do, on kickstarter, and create in game links to the page. If you want to see how loyal your fanbase is, give them something they can be excited about, and ask them to throw money at you so it can happen.
If you have doubts, you can even attach some cool accessories/real world merchandise as "incentive" for people to contribute (like T-shirts). Your practically looking at a needed TU in order to revive your declining fan base, but whatever you do, give us a reason to be excited about the future of the game. Battle Sprites are cool sounding, but still don't offer any of the basic things people have been asking for time and time again, so maybe take a step back and look at the game from the perspective of your community to get some ideas. Even looking at the "Lore", you have a lot of untapped material to work with, perhaps start there. Arcane Salamanders, Spiral Witches, Angel and Fallen Angel Knights, just to name a few...)
Sa, 04/13/2013 - 09:26
#13
-----
I can't focus very well right now, so I haven't quite read the OP to the full yet. However, I did catch the bit where we do have to reverse some of the changes. Personally, I'm not against it but the problem lies in determining at what point do we determine that the reversal of these changes would be... detrimental, say? How will anyone even convince OOO (or Sega?) to do that? They seem intent on keeping this audience, or chasing after this audience for whatever reason. Perhaps there is profit to be had there? That could be unlikely, but the possibility can't be ruled out.
Also, it's unlikely that there will be a major MAJOR rollback. The changes made to the game have moved it to a very far and very different point. What compromise can be made to get as much of the old playerbase back while keeping some of the new playerbase? Do we make a compromise? Can one be made at all?
More questions to come once my jitters die down.
Sa, 04/13/2013 - 11:48
#14
A way to fix it
Just make updates that actually improve the game, just to name a few possible ways.
No replaying missions -> arcade is actually used -> bosses are no longer the only thing people do -> goes back to how it was
Make accessories easily accessable and cheap -> people actually spend their time playing rather than trading useless items
Free shadow lairs -> veterans have a challenge/dont leave and another reason to go to the arcade -> less quitting
Re-buff monsters -> makes the game a challenge -> no one falls asleep mid game -> goes back to how it was
So basically go over past things that no one liked and make it better.
Sa, 04/13/2013 - 11:50
#15
Oh and add new weps and DONT
Oh and add new weps and DONT REPLACE THE GOOD ONES (bring back the old shard bombs)
Sa, 04/13/2013 - 12:03
#16
mmm.
no replaying missions: agree.
make accessory easly affordable; they are one of the crown sinks, so no.
free shadow liars: I don't think it's a good idea. cheap snarby suits would spam the market.
re-buff monsters: agree, but rescale, so that it isn't too difficoult for newbs to adapt from t1 to t2 and from t2 to t3.
Sa, 04/13/2013 - 12:17
#17
Well with accessories,
Well with accessories, basically you have the wierd accessories like barrel bellies, they are like a few K cr, then there are things like wings, with prices going up to 1 mil. Thats a bit ridiculous, just saying. And since snarby is a 5* it will never be cheap. And snarby is just normal armour, its just obtained a different way whats the point in making it more expensive and harder to get? To get a key ud just spend a while grinding at vana, where is the fun in that? And the sudden shift in difficulty was one of thr best things about going up a tier.
Tho if not free, at least affordable shadow keys. Id happily buy and split the cost of a 400ce key, 100 ce each. If OOO did that theyd get allot more sales and make morenthan they did already.
Sa, 04/13/2013 - 13:23
#18
What if...
Arcades used to be really difficult since there were no Arsenal Stations to change weapons according to the certain floor you were in. People complained that adding Arsenal Stations made the Arcade really easy nowadays. How about... making a separate gate where there are no more Arsenal Stations, but the profit rate is slightly higher, and using weapons that deal normal damage more necessary for survival.
So, 04/14/2013 - 00:00
#19
The boss(es) of sega's CEO are the investors.
I think one of the biggest problems SK has is its audience. SK has a strange hybrid of casual/hardcore players, and new/vets. Because of SK's uniqueness, it's a love-hate thing - when a new player finds the game, most either instantly like it or hate it. Or play for the TF2 hat and leave. For those of us that love it, for whatever reason, we usually end up sticking around for a while and spending, in some cases, quite a good deal of money on the game. These are the players that OOO should want to keep, because they are the ones who support the game.
Lately, OOO has been dumbing down the game, introducing a "shiny" UI to appeal to new players as well as monster nerfs. These might attract new players for a little while, but they are only shallow "Improvments" that really end up hurting the game as the player progresses to higher tiers. And many players don't even get to those tiers, because the kind of people who were attracted to the "shiny" UI and "easy" gameplay are the same kind of people who will run smack dab into a grinding wall at 4* and walk away. They end up spending not very much money, and all the while veteran players are leaving because of the lack of new endgame content and reduced challenge, or in the case of the UI less efficient gameplay.
OOO/SEGA seem to be favoring the casual players over the core, even though their game is only structured to cater to casual players until the halfway point. It looks like they're running on the assumption that either the vets are too stupid to notice that the game is going down the drain and continue to pump in money, or that they will have an endless stream of naïve newbies throwing a little cash in and then quitting. they have to realize this will not work.
SK has built up a (mostly) mature community over its two year lifespan, so don't think we won't notice if things start to go wrong. Take the UI update as an example: don't like it anymore, stop playing and stop paying. Let the wallet talk, since that's all SEGA can hear apparently.
For the other revenue stream, the newbies: word of mouth is powerful. there won't be an infinite stream of ignorant new players willing to pour money into this game, because the way it's made right now and the direction it's headed in will cause them to quit. Not only quit, but tell their friends not to play. They tell their friends, they tell their friends, and eventually thousands of people have heard the news: "don't play spiral knights. It's one of those games where they lure you in and trick you into thinking its free, but you actually have to pay halfway through." Then the new players stop streaming in and the veterans have already left because of the trend of newbie-focused updates, and SK is left with no players. The game dies.
So, what can be done to stop this? Two things:
(These things must be done together or they will not work.)
Step 1: Add more endgame content. Levels, story, more interesting cosmetics, whatever. This will keep the veterans playing, which is good for the players as well as the devs since happy players = more money for OOO.
Step 2: address the progression and difficulty curve through the stages of the game leading up to endgame, feeding the players in at a good pace and keeping them from hitting what they think is a pay wall and quitting on the spot. This will do 3 things:
-new players will enjoy the game more, unless they're the kind who want to breeze through 100% of the game. If they are that kind of person, then it's good if they leave anyway - OOO does not want their community to be full of spoiled kids.
-new players will pass on the word to their friends that the game is good, and attract yet more new players.
-the new players will not hit grinding walls, allowing them to reach the endgame (and enjoy the journey there) which will now offer even more possibilities because of step 1. Newbies -> veterans = more sustained playerbase = happy community = more money for OOO = better updates = more new players = you get the idea.
So yeah. OOO needs to avoid digging themselves into the hole of easy quick money, it will only cause them to quickly loose what they already have as well as what they were aiming for.
So, 04/14/2013 - 09:07
#20
+1 to everything here
What it says.
Hope OOO listens to you.
So, 04/14/2013 - 09:10
#21
@ Noklip: What you're is
@ Noklip: What you're is exactly my problem I'm having. Instead of using the HoH to advance the game, why not have an actual test of player skill? To gain tier clearance, you have to do a mission from that tier. This makes it recommended to do long grinding or throwing OOO a buck or two, though it isn't a requirement.
So, 04/14/2013 - 11:38
#22
-----
I hope the OP comes back within the month or something because this thread demands attention.
So, 04/14/2013 - 16:08
#23
Nooooooo...
I totally disagree with this, we need to keep our fashion game. We get pretty clothes and accessories and show off our collections.
/scarkasdmfmmfw
So, 04/14/2013 - 17:22
#24
I don' care 'bout yoor sar-kazm
Cosmetics are actually completely fine, and they help as a crown sink. The danger is focusing more on cosmetics than content. :P
Mo, 04/15/2013 - 00:28
#25
<3
Loving the concern of a community.
+1 for your effort
+1 for your suggestion to reorganize OOO's direction with SK
Mo, 04/15/2013 - 04:08
#27
In the direction the games
In the direction the games headed, it wouldnt be WORTH spending money on. The changes made to make money is making players leave. Wether its OOO or SEGA theyre losing potential customers and need to fix it
Mo, 04/15/2013 - 05:41
#28
Lizards
This is quite a great post you have. I too wish to hope that OOO starts to reconsider some of the changes that has happened into the past. Nerfing the devlites was the last spring of hope that made me feel that this game is now becoming way too easy and are making things more open to the newer players rather than being balanced for new and old players. Yes, I may be a veteran but there has been a lot of things that shouldn't have changed in the first place. For one thing, Missions was great during when it had came out. It gave me the feeling of understanding the story to where the knights are being taken to and how we are struggling to get back into our ship to set sail into universe back to our home planet. This however, Missions are now a thing were we can repeat over and over and over just like I keep seeing nothing but in the party finder repeating itself showing nothing but FSC...which is killing the arcade, playerbase and this game as well.
Removing the energy bar into the arsenal doesn't make it non-linear, infact, this game is already Linear to begin with even if you removed it without looking into your arsenal. The story is stuck and everyone is having Vanasyndrome because... they can't open the core! Sure, we have been told plenty of times time to say that if we keep putting minerals into the clockworks we may find a way to open the core, but... nothing is happening. We are still creating new levels in the arcade which is random but we still are having issues finding a way to getting the information from the Alpha Squad and only thing we had found information in the shadow lairs pertaining what is happing. We are stuck in limbo and story is not progress as all these updates are not giving much except newer mobs like the dust bunnies, grave scarabs and drops. Sure... they were fun for a little while, but that faded away knowingly that they hardly pose a threat. Even in Tier3 they are not fearsome.
What got me started playing this game was the fact that it had a random arcade you can create out of the minerals. The possibilities of hoping to get that one level when fighting the crowd of knights in hopes of gaining that one stratum to become what you wanted to be and hoping it gives out good treasures and things to explore. As of now, the arcade is slowly dying as I only see people doing FSC in the party finder or looking in the arcade area naturally up at top of haven in hopes someone is available to play with, but sadly that usually doesn't happen unless you're getting kicked because you're either supposedly too elite or they forgot to lock their parties or...whichever the reasons you still get kicked. It's not even challenging anymore and it depresses me that I can't fight against other players in the clockworks to creating new stratums as hardly anyone even cares anymore and becomes easy to get what stratum you want.
Another reason why I still been playing for so long was because of the community as well. Lively people. always hanging out in each individual section of haven. Rather it be sitting by the fountain before we had an "auction house" or hanging out at the bazaar where there was no "Punch or Vise" to randomly give you any UV you desired if you obtain what you thought is best and kept it. Even the Arcade area was full of life with people roaming around and chatting. Lately the vast majority of the player-base have now become hindered and we got less dedicated players that we once knew leaving and new players that don't seem to be very much appreciate how the game has become these days or never understood how Spiral Knights used to be like before.
Forgive me if my words don't sound right or I may confuse you, but deeply I have been one of the few that is hoping for the better that this game will eventually either get better or become worse as it has been lately seeing how the community is at an uproar ever since the shard bombs incident and other enemy nerf changes. I may not be a well known forumer but I still check here every now and then if something is interesting and I might post, but overall... with the way how the community is with their feedback and how things aren't turning out right, you'll see why I don't post much anymore. Also, enemies used to home into you when attacking so they use to pose a lot of threat back then. No matter where you were, they would still find you and you have to make a quick decision or still get hit. Even wolvers were deadly until their homing abilities were nerfed. I actually liked the challenged and gave me a few laughs when I either died or somehow managed to pull of an arena full of devilites, wolvers and so on.
There's also the lack of newer content lately.. no I'm not considering the last few patches as to be "content" as it is only prolonging of how the game is progressing and I know they are working hard lately to give us a new huge content like the Battle Sprites they mentioned earlier. I don't know what will happen when the next update comes with the battle sprites, but I sure hope there will be more being offered behind the scenes with the battle sprites as much as new equipment, newer clockworks added (except for the ones we got recently from the recent patch), new boss and story progress to which we will hopefully get into the core and find out what happened to the alpha squad and get our ship up and running again!
Anyways... OOO, I hope you have read what I've said and the community as well. We, the Knights of the Spiral Order want to help make you turn the table and hopefully start getting the knights off this planet by reviving the Skylark!
Mo, 04/15/2013 - 08:03
#29
my 2 cents
The game is evolving... What can I say...
Sure OOO need to give veteran something to chew on... but the veterans are grumpy and don't like changes...
Seriously, I don't get why people are leaving because of a mere UI update, the new mobs are kinda nice.
But the difficulty... man... Those T3 mobs are like.... Brain damaged or something?
I seriously miss the old mobs... the alpha wolvers who tracked you like a mofo, the retrodes with out of the screen attacks that hit and those F1 zombols...
Now I seriously have the time to type /assis (which is /sit in french) and take the tea with mobs before they hit me...
Plus devilish throws some extra chairs for us...
Mo, 04/15/2013 - 08:49
#30
@Zeakstarwind
I couldn't have said it better.
Except for the devillites. They are still a pain in the rear...especially when you let a pack go Overtimer.
Mo, 04/15/2013 - 09:29
#31
Re buff monsters
But devillites being extremely annoying was what made them cool. All the monsters are being nerfed, making the game boring. what are the ppl used to the fun/hard types gonna do? Proto runs?
Mo, 04/15/2013 - 13:44
#32
No, sadly they'll probably just leave.
Mo, 04/15/2013 - 14:25
#33
Oh great, another thread
Oh great, another thread about zeh new UI interface. It's not going to help guys.
Mo, 04/15/2013 - 14:37
#34
Did you not see all the detail. At this point fixing the UI is only the most important thing by a small margin, the equally big issue is addressing the direction of the game.
Di, 04/16/2013 - 11:24
#35
I've said this in other threads, but I think one of the single greatest things that happened to this game was lockdown. It's the most challenging thing this game has to offer. It's also "updated" regularly completely independent of any action on OOO's part (i.e. the brandish and valiance revolutions). There are limits to what we can and can't do however and I believe OOO could awaken many dormant veterans, make a lot of people happy, and give the community a BIG bone to chew on if they implemented this and this. I also think more PvP is in order, something along the lines of a race maybe. I also believe it would really kick things off if OOO hosted a couple tournaments (winners get a neatly retextured rocket hammer or something) or if they at least made a tournament game mode for easier organization.
Di, 04/16/2013 - 20:19
#36
References/Examples
Since no human being can remember every patch to date, taking a look at the really early Announcements/Patch notes section is a good way to jog your memory whether for practicality or for sake of reminiscence. Pages 8+ is where I'd consider the most examples of Three Rings' good patches are (obviously some patches from page 7 up to now haven't been all bad, but the majority of patches I enjoyed were from the earlier days of Spiral Knights).
Blast From The Past! http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/forum/8?page=7
For example, we complained about the crafting patch and Nick responded: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/8736
I think one way to rekindle the essence of Spiral Knights and the Three Rings we formerly knew is to get them to be honest about whether they can do those (Page 8+) types of updates again or whether they're limited by SEGA and have little leeway to listen to us over them.
(As much as Three Rings have done that I don't agree with, calling them money-hungry and cussing at them isn't going to help. Sympathizing with a possible situation that they could be in is better than slating them.)
Di, 04/16/2013 - 20:53
#37
I remember those days...
And i actually liked to play the game around the 1st year or so when it came out. Not sure why i stopped for a number of months. But when i came back, it was some time before the new layout was in place. I did like the artistic style that it had, but having to do missions and having a ranking system put in and the whole prestige thing. Dear god, what the bullpies is SEGA thinking? I know they are the ones that are higher up on OOO, and that they have a large say in what goes on with Spiral Knights. But can we please not have something similar compared to what Capcom did with Megaman Legends 3?
If the game was good but it got stale or nothing enticingly new came within a few months, it would lose its potential for a larger fanbase. By the time news of the 3rd game comes out, Capcom blamed the "lack" of fanbase and invoice for the development of its third MML game and shut down the project. I loved that series, so can SEGA and OOO not do something that will keep them stuck on Cradle? With the fanbase that still remains here on Spiral Knights, get more than a lot of input from the fans so the developers can get a right idea for what to do to keep this game attractive for noobs and veterans alike. Cuz by the looks of how things are progressing, Cradle might lose its Core by means of selling out and dying within the endless space of the internet. And i don't want to die by the cold vastness of Internet Space.
Do, 04/18/2013 - 17:52
#38
* Brinks in the Bazaar has
* Brinks in the Bazaar has received a fresh shipment of Philoso Feathers for sale. Best not to think about where from.
I miss when updates had humor like this. :P
Note on the game dying(no it's not really dying. I'm saying this to those who think it currently is dying): Being that Three Rings supports open source, I have a feeling that they would put the game into an open source state when they can't keep the game running any more. Even if the game lost all its support at that point, it MIGHT build up again if the coders who still happen to support the game (like myself...Idk if I'll ever stop supporting...the most I'd do is leave for a little while.) make some good changes.
And yes, I'm looking at it positively: If they are doing weird changes, maybe it's because they are having issues with upper-management doing things to the game? I doubt Nick and the others would really be wanting to do all these things when I look at all the great updates and patches they've done in the past.
Do, 04/18/2013 - 17:54
#39
Can you have an open-source MMO? Wouldn't there just be hackers everywhere?
Do, 04/18/2013 - 18:21
#40
@Klipik
While hackers would be a thing, there could be (hired) moderators which moderate the code, and then allow loyal developers/contributors to become volunteer moderators?
Idk...
Do, 04/18/2013 - 18:21
#41
Meiji Restoration
After two weeks of hiatus and careful thinking, I like to offer these thoughts to the SK community:
- Three Rings didn't listen before, they would not listen now. Why is this pattern keep recurring? The answer could be straight forward: we have been talking to the wrong guys because the people we have been talking to are not the SK stakeholders;
- who are the stakeholders of SK? While many people we already know would have some stakes in SK, they aren't the major stakeholders. These people include Nick, the SK Dev. team, Eury and even Three Rings CEO, Daniel James. To trace down these major stakeholders, one must first understand how SK comes to conception;
- the Sega acquisition news in 2011 offers some clues. Looking at the 2nd paragraph it looks like SK is a love child between Three Rings and Sega. The acquisition was carried out with the help of two investment firms.
- there are a total of four names mentioned in the acquisition announcement. Last year during the shard bomb patch incident, we already contacted one of them (the CEO). So that's three names left that could potentially lead us to the major stakeholders in SK;
- once we identify the stakeholders, the rest is easy. I believe the OP's analysis is pretty faithful and all we need to do is, present that view to them and show them how their investment is at risk if they do not change course.
It is also worth mentioning that back in 2011 acquisition, Daniel James said,
"SEGA and Three Rings are committed to our existing games: no change in service or development is currently planned to any of our titles, including Puzzle Pirates and Spiral Knights. Again, for the benefit of our players who may be concerned, we do not foresee any untoward changes to your player experience."
Does this last statement ring a bell?
Right now, many veterans feel like we are the last Samurai during the Meiji Restoration period in Japan. Some of us feel our privilege as Veteran would be threatened as the game becomes easier and may become bitter if their voices continue not to be heard, some would continue to play the game (for science) and hope that they could continue to advice SK development team, some would simply resign from the game and never show up again. In all three cases, we will be singled out one by one and in the end, there will be very few of us left.
The only useful advice I could offer in this situation is, trace down the major stakeholders of SK and present the OP's analysis. To trace down these stakeholders, go through the remaining three names in that acquisition news. They would be somehow connected to the stakeholders. Ask them about how the acquisition went (both before and after), and what's the role of SK was in the whole deal. More names should surface and those are our leads.
Before someone asks, "Elt, you wrote to Daniel last year, why don't you do the community one more favour?" Unfortunately, I will not do any contact this time, because it's too risky to put all eggs in one basket. If the contacts are spread out onto different members in the community. Then even if we lose one member, we would still have contacts left.
This could be my last post to the forum. After experiencing the 2nd anniversary patch, my anxiety is not that the SK community's benefit would be usurped by Sega, but that it could be given away bit by bit by some people in Three Rings Design. One thing I know for certain, is that if I want to continue to do some good to SK and its community, I should not be spending more time posting on this forum.
Do, 04/18/2013 - 18:21
#42
Ahh...
Before missions, when I started the game in late 2011, I had that feel that this game would only change when it needed to.
I was misled. The missions were the start of this, I had lost the feel of blowing all my mist on the way down to Emberlight. No longer did I need to trek all the way from Moorcroft in my wolver set to fight the Royal Jelly with my level 4 flourish. I should have been glad, but I felt the flavor of the game fading away. Still, I played on. Since the pets were announced , the game almost destroyed what it originally was, but there still is a spark of what it was, and if OOO turns that spark into a fire, they will have a great game that will last far longer than it would with how it's doing now.
Do, 04/18/2013 - 18:42
#43
Do, 04/18/2013 - 20:53
#44
@OP/Gametrekker +1
I agree for the most part. I don't want my favorite game to shutdown. >-<
Though I actually would prefer a few minor improvements if they actually did revert the game back to "normal."
Spiffy the old UI up a bit if it ever comes back? (Possibly like Zopy's redesign: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/77996 )
Balance equipment and fix textures with Gunslinger equips... I mean c'mon I've been waiting two years now...
Keep the Compound Depths and new Guild Halls.
Etc...
Sa, 04/20/2013 - 07:35
#45
just make the game how it
just make the game how it used to be, OOO should do stuff to fix the game and listen to the suggestions that would actually do something good.
So, 04/21/2013 - 00:47
#46
Wow!
Thank you all for the amazing support!
It's very encouraging to see so many highly intelligent responses to what I had to say here! There is now a mountain of helpful information for OOO being provided by this thread alone. I want to extend extra appreciation to those players who wrote very detailed responses, as a surprising number of you did!
As for me, I'm still here, monitoring this thread and considering my options. In case this isn't obvious by now, part of why I wrote all this is in pursuit of getting in touch with OOO myself. I'm convinced that I have the expertise they need in order to make Spiral Knights the glorious success it has the potential to be. However, I can't truly help them until they give me a chance.
To elaborate on that: I could spend months writing huge post after huge post on these forums. I could write about how game difficulty affects what players value in virtual worlds. I could write about the difference between difficulty and fairness, and how this has affected Spiral Knights. I could write about the relationship between balance and variety in video games. I could write about what is needed to balance Spiral Knights. I could write about how all this stuff affects OOO's profits. I could go on and on in this post about what I could write. But, simple information like this would do very little for OOO compared to what I can offer in person.
I'm not going to go into detail here about what exactly my value would be to them. This is a public message board; not really the place for that. I'm just writing this post to express my thanks to the many intelligent Spiral Knights fans who've made this thread into a success, and to give everyone a more detailed picture of what I'm aiming to accomplish with all this.
To anyone at OOO who might be reading this: I realize that this is, effectively, a very bold claim I'm making here about what I have to offer. I'm not expecting to be hired or anything like that just because I wrote a particularly perceptive post on the Internet. I'm looking to, as I said earlier in this post, establish contact first. Then I can be properly vetted, and we can determine together how I can best support the team. If you have any concerns about extending an opportunity like this to a fan of the game, I will be happy to address them in live conversation.
To everyone else: Feel free to keep sharing your thoughts and feelings about the state of Spiral Knights and everything else that's being discussed in this thread! While I provided a tremendous amount of analysis in the OP, the extensiveness of the responses reminds us all that this is ultimately a community effort. The more we work together to make our voices heard, the more they will be. We're here in support because we see what a rare gem Spiral Knights is. We want to see it polished so we and many others have more reasons to keep playing and to give OOO more of our money!
So, 04/21/2013 - 08:08
#47
we need more ppl like trekker
I dont think anyone wants the game shut down OOO especially.
Mo, 04/22/2013 - 06:07
#48
SOE have it down.
For those of you that have heard of or played Planetside 2; I think there's something to learn from SOE, they seem to have the whole "what should we put in our updates and patches" thing down, at least for Planetside 2.
Just take a quick look at this video and see all of the juicy additions to Planetisde 2. Most (if not all) of them make sense and really define the game making it that much more specific, I think that's what SK has been missing: SEGA have no idea what SK was meant to be and so are (arguably) 'ruining' the game by clashing with it's original vision/idea by getting Three Rings to add stuff like Accessories/Silvers Keys/Lockboxes (which haven't made the slightest difference to actual gameplay which makes the games seem slow to progress, grindy, generic and stale) and Missions (while a good idea on paper) inevitably caused the general slaughtering and death of arcade (which was really the heart of the game).
Di, 04/23/2013 - 21:22
#49
Sigh
I wish there was some way for OOO to participate in this discussion without hindering the discussion or possibly getting sued and/or fired for slandering OOO/SEGA. I would love to hear what they have to say about it... Not a peep from them on anything remotely close to a UI issue, and it's been almost a month now.
Di, 04/30/2013 - 17:12
#50
Arcade
The old roots of the Arcade are long gone. The campaign is the only thing people play. Make the Arcade better, longer, and, just, last able.
I appreciate your rather long, but informative letter of concern directed at none other than the OOO crew on SK. Endorsement by me.
Though the only 2 suggestions you listed here, no.1 being the option to choose the classic HUD, and no.2 for the OOO crew to be more interactive with the community here, are not really the main focus of your speech, I think that what you say is of great importance and I agree to many of your points.
Though the suggestion of the option to switch to the classic HUD has been repeated several times by many forumers here, I honestly think it is a good idea.
The second being having the OOO crew to be more active. Going back to Zaffy's post on "Is OOO being too secretive now?", I believe that the OOO crew can actually take the initiative to talk to us. They do read, but they don't usually respond.
One more thing that has to be taken into consideration. Sega, publisher of the game, does have the rights to manipulate the game to whatever it envisions it to be. Perhaps it wasn't OOO's fault, but we don't know.
Anyways, appreciate your effort, not sure if it's going to change anything...