Spiral Knights - Ok, so I'm going to try suggest some new stuff and a balance between Mad Bomber and the Chaos Set.

Ok, so I'm going to try suggest some new stuff and a balance between Mad Bomber and the Chaos Set.

27 replies [Last post]

Wed, 07/10/2013 - 23:32

Etharaes

So, we all know that the Mad Bomber set is completely outclassed by chaos set since Chaos' mega buff (lack of curse weakness < charge time reduction very high and damage bonus very high to guns and bombs). We all, well most of us, want chaos nerfed/mad bomber buffed/there be a reason to use chaos over mad bomber that is not morals/bombing pureness/dat mohawk.

Personally, I see nerfing the defence of a glass cannon armor not really much of a nerf. If you've gotten to the point of using a glass cannon armor, then defensive bonuses no longer matter to you. So we need offensive nerfs.

My balance suggestion:

Chaos gets changed so it has DMG bonus medium and CTR low, universal, per piece.
Mad Bomber gets changed so it has DMG bonus high and CTR medium, to bombs, per piece.

The idea is that there is enough tangible reason to use Mad Bomber over chaos set (it now maxes out your bombs) while still there being enough reason to use chaos over non glass cannon armors.

Now for the new stuff:

Gunners and swordsmen will get their own equivalents of the new mad bomber set. Crazed Gunman/slinger (with a beard on the helm) and rabid wolver (rabid wolvers are crazy, right?). I just feel like we need equality between all three armors. And just for kicks, Crazed Gunman gets shadow defence and Rabid Wolver gets piercing defense. Rabid Wolver and Crazed Gunman could trade in some DMG or CTR for ASI, if you want.

My other suggestion, which was originally going to be a repurpose for the Fallen set, but decided that the Fallen set is defensive and that would make Fallen owners mad. It sprung from the idea that I wanted an armor which gave universal ASI, but Fallen was... lacking.

This new set would be like the changed chaos set, and would have ASI medium and DMG low, universal, per piece. I would like it to look like something from the angelic line.

So, what do you think of my ideas? They are rough, yes, but the part about the Mad Bomber and Chaos set balance got the OK from Zeddy so it looks like I'm getting somewhere with these ideas.

Wed, 07/10/2013 - 23:49

Grittle

Thats never going to happen

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 04:43

Hexzyle

-1

Don't touch Mad Bomber, it's fine as it is. Don't try to fix something that ain't broke.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 05:03

Ink-Incorporated

Hexzyle, he's trying to balance the Chaos set with the Mad Bomber set... He's not just giving it buffs out of the blue.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 05:07

Hexzyle

@Ink-Incorporated

Mad Bomber set is balanced. It always has been. Nothing on it has been changed to make it unbalanced.

The problem here is Chaos.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 05:09

Hexzyle

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 05:08

Ink-Incorporated

Oh. Good point.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 08:36

Waffleconecake

my thoughts

Why not just change the armor type on the chaos set from elemental to piercing and then give the cowl CTR medium and attack damage low then give the chaos clock CTR low with attack damage medium. This way it has high stats on the full set.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 08:42

Exerpa

I'm going to go ahead and

I'm going to go ahead and just get it over with.
Chaos didn't make Mad Bomber bad, Krogmo trinkets and modern Volcanic/Bombastic made Mad Bomber bad.

Mad used to have purpose at one point, as it was the only way to max out your CTR and get damage at the same time.
Since the retooling of the 2 main Demo sets and addition of bomb trinkets, what use had Mad been? A way to squeeze out Max bomb damage because Very High wasn't good enough, or perhaps you really needed to open up your trinket slots for something else? And by something else I don't mean health or defense trinkets.

Probably the worst part of the Mad Bomber legacy is that it made us think that it was fair to have huge penalties for a not so huge bonus - it turns out this was a lie, as Chaos has forced us to realize. No doubt Mad Gunslinger and Mad Wolver would have been popular and would serve a purpose of opening your trinket slots for ASI, anyone dreaming of those sets would have naturally assumed the stats would have been based around Mad Bomber. While there is still room for 'Mad' Gunslinger/Wolver sets, now that Chaos has forced us to reconsider the buff vs. penalty equation such sets couldn't have the same weaknesses as Chaos and Mad Bomber. However as ASI is not officially part of a Demo loadout, then there no room for Mad Bomber. From today's point of view it should not exist.

Ultimately the problem seems to stem from a change in gear design philosophy: Exponential losses for linear gain has been replaced by linear loss for linear gain. Chaos had the exact same problem, twice in fact.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 08:58

Levenzaa

Simple Solution...

Chaos = Curse penalty

Mad Bomber = No curse penalty

Solution: Release curse bombs !!

Actually at first this was a joke but I would quite like a curse mist bomb :P

But I personally think that chaos should have either Damage Bonus: Very High Or Charge Time Reduction: Very High for total, either one instead of both.

-Potato

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:20

#10

Zeddy

@Exerpa

Chaos does not have linear loss for linear gain, and even with trinkets around, using one piece of Mad was a fine strategy for maxing out your offensive stats.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:49

#11

Ninja-Gyles

Balancing Chaos set and Mad Bomber set.

I believe it would be fair to add weakness to stun or make them weak 3 bars to the stauses? Or add Damage Bonus High to each piece of Mad Bomber, certainly not all though

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 17:34

#12

Etharaes

Not this time.

I am not going to have my idea squished this time.

Yes, the problem IS chaos. But the developers aren't going to change the chaos set back to the way it was, and honestly 1 less bonus per piece is not going to be enough incentive to choose mad bomber over the chaos set. Honestly, we need atleast 2 level of bonuses difference between chaos and mad bomber.
So, we're not going back to damage and ctr low, we'll give chaos 3 bonuses per piece because as I have said before REDUCING THE DEFENCE ON A GLASS CANNON ARMOR IS NOT A NERF, and this holds especially true in a game where defence is worth so much less than offense anyways.

So, we've got chaos now at 3 buffs. And we need 2 buffs difference atleast for mad bomber to be a good trade in. So we'll give mad bomber 5 bonuses per piece, which then maxes out your bombs.

Chaos was slightly UP in it's previous state. Yes it buffed all 3 weaopon types, but hardly anyone will use a bomb, sword and gun equally in a loadout. Most people use one weapon type and another type as a secondary damage source/straggler finisher. Because of this, it was better to mix demo/wolver/gunslinger sets than use chaos.

~Ethanol

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 23:49

#13

Hexzyle

Since we're now discussing nerfing overpowered gear, might I recommend this thread.

Fri, 07/12/2013 - 01:28

#14

Zave

chaos before and after...

i used chaos before the buff and was surprised how many people i had to explain this to then...

before... 6 trinks
a full chaos set used to be worth 6 5* trinket slots. because both armors were 2 low buffs to the 3 types of weapons.
2 low buffs = med buff... med buff x 2 pieces in the set x 3 types of weapons = 6 med buffs
yes, i created sets specifically to take advantage of all the buffs, and it worked amazingly well. i was able to use a spare trinket slot or 2 in order to max out dmg on the weapons i relied on most, and i seem to use charge attacks more than anyone else i've had the privilege to fight in LD.

in case you can't tell, i loved it this way. i considered this perfect for balance. not quite able to take on a dedicated weapon set, but with tons of versatility. i never considered the status weaknesses to be a 100% fatal threat. they crippled me sure, but if i dodged extremely well, i could usually live through them.

after... 12 trinks
now the chaos set is worth 12 5* trinket slots. no really i'm not kidding.
2 med buffs x 2 pieces of armor x 3 types of weapons = 12 med buffs
holly cow... it just eclipses all other armor. anything that isn't asi anyways. i find myself always going to chaos when making a new set. gunner, swords, bombs, or a combo of any. it doesn't matter because as long as i even think about charging for a second, it's pretty much worth it.

one of the other problems here is that bombers just feel weak in general. i'm trying to make the transition to full bomber, and all the people i've gone to for tips laugh at how slow bombs kill things in PvE. weapons designed to do area of effect dmg clear crowds slower than most swords, drivers, and polaris especially. in PvP, maybe i'm just not getting the hang of it, but bombs have a tough time doing anything but making people second guess diving on me or swap to a gun and push me back. usually they just jump in on me if i'm alone or interrupt one or two charges with a gun and go in. thank goodness we can't get knocked out of full charges like we used to. i'm lucky to get 4-5 kills in a game using bombs, compared to my 10-15 deaths.

Fri, 07/12/2013 - 06:44

#15

Exerpa

1 part Chaos = 6x +2 offense;

1 part Chaos = 6x +2 offense; ~8x -2 defense, remember the lack of a +4 status resist and reduced normal defense also count.

I know using 1 part of Mad was a strategy to get max bomb offense, I mentioned it above. But I disagree that equipping something that cuts the status resist of your other piece in half and adding a bunch of weaknesses in the process just to bridge the gap of +8 to +10 offense could ever be called "fine".

If only OOO was willing and/or able to maintain their ideas, we would have had our "Barbarous Bomb Shield" by now. As I understand it, the battle sprites will offer buffs so better late in a convoluted form than never I guess...

Fri, 07/12/2013 - 07:44

#16

Terra-Necro

@OP

Giving max damage bonus for the Mad Bomber set is not a good idea. Everything is fine the way it is.

The bigger issue should be Sun Shards :O

Fri, 07/12/2013 - 16:37

#17

Zeddy

@Exerpa

Your problem is assuming that +1 stat resist is somehow worth +1 offensive bonus and that the same holds true for defence. If this was the case, everyone would be using Divine Veiler or Gray Feather Cowl or something.

Your other problem is assuming that -2 points for five statuses means a total of -10, when in practical terms you'll only encounter one status at a time. -2 points for all five statuses is simply -2 the moment you actually enter a level outside of Compound 42. There's Lockdown, but even then it's only effectively a -6, Curse, Shock and Freeze.

Your third problem is counting +6 offensive bonus when it's actually +12. Where are you getting +6 from?

Here:

Gray Feather
+High elemental defence (2 points because elemental < normal)
+Max Fire (2 points)
+Max Shock (2 points)

Total of +6

Volcanic Demo
+Medium normal defence (2 points)
+Max Fire (2 points)
+Medium bombs (2 points)

Total of +6

Chaos
+2 CTR for everything (+6)
+2 Damage for everything (+6)
-Medium for five statuses (-5, in practical terms -1)

Total of +7, in practical terms +11, or indeed just +7 if you're only carrying two different weapons

Edit: Herped the math myself because herp.

Fri, 07/12/2013 - 20:57

#18

Fehzor

The real balance issue lies in how weak the offensive bonus trinkets are compared to the curse resist trinkets.

Using Chaos and Mad Bomber as our model for balance regarding curse resistance, we know that 2 points of curse resistance are worth 8 weapon buffs... or specifically, damage med/ctr med for swords/guns.

These curse resistant trinkets should be severely nerfed, and the poor offensive trinkets that give less than half its boost buffed....

And don't even get me started on armor of the fallen, it should have at least damage bonus very high on it.

Sat, 07/13/2013 - 00:06

#19

Exerpa

...1) Then by all means

...

1) Then by all means suggest a more appropriate hypothesis on the offense/defense tradeoff equations used by OOO.
2) "My problem"? I didn't make the game, OOO did. If there is an issue with how status is distributed out in the game world then take it up with them.
3) "1 part Chaos =6x +2 offense". 6 x 2 = 12. A medium is equal to 2, right?

I'm confused as to why Max Fire/Shock = 2 and not 4?

I appreciate all you have done for Spiral Science and all but I still stand by the statement that Mad Bomber is bad and Chaos is not to blame.

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 01:48

#20

Zeddy

@Exerpa

Okay, let's make max fire worth 4.

Vog Coat:
+2 normal (2 points)
+2 damage (2 points)
+4 fire (4 points)

total of 8 points

Gray Feather:
+3 elemental (2 points, or maybe even 3?)
+4 fire (4 points)
+4 shock (4 points)

total of 10 or 11 points

If one were to think like this, Gray Feather would clearly be the superiour armour to Vog Cub. It's 37% stronger, after all! In practice, you see far more Vog Coats in shock-themed levels than you do Gray Feathers. In a game where you can avoid getting hit at all, defensive bonuses are just going to be worth less than offensive ones. In my estimates, I was pretty conservative about it and made +2 damage = +4 fire but if one were to poll the community about it you'd probably find them to value that +2 damage even more highly than that.

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 03:58

#21

Hexzyle

They need to re-add inverse weaknesses for offensive armors like the old days. Chroma to Volcanic Salamander, Volcanic Demo, and Vog need the Freeze weakness back, Skolver needs fire weakness, etc
This would encourage players to have a variety of armors, just like they have a variety of weapons.

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 06:54

#22

Waffleconecake

I gotta agree with hexzyle.

I gotta agree with hexzyle. It should be added back, just not that strong obviously.
The only question is, what would be the counter part to stun, shock, poison ,and curse?

Wed, 07/17/2013 - 07:42

#23

Hexzyle

Depending on the armor. The

Depending on the armor. The Megalodon had Freeze resist and Shock weakness. The Skelly armor used to have fire weakness, but that made it not very useful.
This penalty should only apply to offensive armors. Stun or Curse weakness on the Snarbolax armor? Justifier can have poison weakness: it's supposed to be fast, but that doesn't mean damage can't be reduced. Shadowsun could be weak to curse, Nameless be weak to fire? Deadshot could be weak to stun but I'm not sure how that'd go down with the zombie breath. Should regular gunslinger just be weak to poison? Angelic and Drake already have their weaknesses (drake doesn't have normal defence, that's pretty critical) Demo could have freeze weakness (opposite to wolver's freeze resist and inline with Volcanic Demo) Mad bomber is balanced, bombastic could have... stun weakness? I was thinking fire or shock but that's a little harsh. Mercurial Demo can't be weak to stun or freeze because it's all about quick movement, so what about poison?

Thu, 07/18/2013 - 21:25

#24

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

The only reason why Chaos is considered "glass cannon" is the weakness to stats, yet it has about 1 bar less of elemental defence compared to GFC. We could go to T1 OCH and just pass by the level without being a glass cannon. So Chaos is only part glass cannon, missing some of the glass.

So Chaos should have five bars of normal and elemental defence when fully heated rather than at level 1. Also give it stun weakness. Now there is more glass. This is better than nothing.

Fri, 07/19/2013 - 16:49

#25

Kimahsonite

I like the suggestion for

I like the suggestion for balancing Mad Bomber and Chaos. However, I don't agree with adding a gunner/swordie like Mad Bomber. Bombers are already at a disadvantage since bombs are much weaker than swords/guns in most situations.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 07:04

#26

Blitzsonic

I wouldn't add a weakness to

I wouldn't add a weakness to armors, it's already hard enough to get a set with the current ce price. I see the point of the mad bomber vs chaos set, maybe they could remove the poison status from mad bomber(poison=can't heal, less defense, take more damage from enemies) and add the stun and sleep weakness to chaos.

Sat, 07/20/2013 - 07:29

#27

Hexzyle

@Blitzsonic

If you can only afford one set then, you'd go with a defensive/all-round armor like Jelly, Cobalt, Skelly, Magic or Plate.

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Ok, so I'm going to try suggest some new stuff and a balance between Mad Bomber and the Chaos Set.