Spiral Knights - The Megathread for that dumb, overpowered piece of equipment that everyone complains about. [VOTE]

The Megathread for that dumb, overpowered piece of equipment that everyone complains about. [VOTE]

77 replies [Last post]

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 09:22

Hexzyle

ALRIGHT! Listen up! I'm sick of the massive trashpile that people call "balancing threads" that I have to filter through whenever I'm in the suggestions subsection. So I've decided to make a proper thread and ACTUALLY UPKEEP IT. (OMGrite?)

NERF TIME!

Here's where you get to vote on nerfs to weapons, or suggest your own nerfs. You may vote on more than one item for each weapon. Let's begin!

BLITZ NEEDLE

The most blasphemous of the lot, the Blitz needle is one of the highest DPS weapons in the game. It completely outshines the Plague Needle and the Volcanic Pepperbox, both of which are decently balanced weapons. Thus we can't just "buff the competition". There have been a few suggested ideas, none of which really adress the problem without creating 10 more. The simplest solution is often the best, no?

Reduce damage output by:
1. 10%
2. 20%
3. 30%
4. 40%
Bullets do less damage the shorter they travel
Reduce charge attack damage and increase standard attack damage

Other, unlisted nerf?

Votes

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1. █░░░25%
2. ███░75%
3. ░░░░0%
4. ░░░░0%
█████░░░░░50%
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FLOURISH

A weapon which eludes logic, the flourish is a pure damage dealing weapon, which completely ignores the split normal damage unwritten rule of melee weapons. This makes it overpowered in PvP, and underpowered in PvE. The first swing of the weapon is obnoxiously wide and fast, yet still deals the same damage as Calibur, despite having a wider range.

Change the damage to split piercing/normal
Reduce the width of the first attack
Reduce the speed of the attacks
Completely overhaul the swings and the shape of the combo's hitbox so that it's useful
Reduce damage output by ~10%

Other, unlisted nerf?

Votes

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█████░░░░░░45%
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ROCKET HAMMER

Like the flourish, the Rocket Hammer has unexplainable pure elemental damage. Although it is faster and hits harder than the Divine Avenger, due to its pure damage, poison does not boost it's attack power as dramatically as Divine Avengers'. It also has a dash which can shred enemies, but also can throw the user into hazards and is easily sidesteppable by experienced players.

Change the damage to split elemental/normal
Reduce the damage output by ~10%
Reduce the speed of the dash
Reduce overall speed of attacks
Dramatically decrease dash damage

Other, unlisted nerf?

Votes

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POLARIS

The Polaris, and to a lesser extent, the Supernova, are among the most controversial of all weapons both in and out of PvP. The superior AoE makes escaping the damage difficult. Paired with the shock, this weapon becomes on par with the Storm Driver. However, the Polaris has slower moving bullets, reducing its usefulness as an offensive weapon but increasing its defensive abilities. The high knockback makes a Polaris user difficult to approach, for both monsters and players. (Polaris bullets for some reason can push shielded Trojans further than a Sudaruska charge attack) To top it all off, the Polaris is the most visually disrupting non-bomb weapon.

Reduce the clip size to:
1. 1 round per clip
2. 2 rounds per clip
Remove shock chance from unexpanded bullets
Cause unexpanded bullets to deal no damage
Dramatically decrease Polaris' knockback
Redesign Polaris graphics so they are not obstructive
Reduce shock strength
Reduce expanded bullet size

Other, unlisted nerf?

Apply identical nerfs to Supernova
Do not apply identical nerfs to Supernova

Votes

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1. █░░33%
2. ██░66%
███████░░77%
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███░░60%
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BRANDISH

Although not as overpowered as the other weapons on this list, the brandish series is still a harsh offender. The charge attacks are quick, easy and safe, and are nearly on par in terms of damage to Sudaruska and Triglav charges. A player will move at nearly full walking speed when charging a Brandish, and can unleash the charge relatively quickly with only a short recovery time. Troikas on the other hand will slow the player dramatically when charging, and hurl the player forward towards their enemies, simultaneously locking the player in a long recovery. The sword in general is simple to use, and extremely diverse.

Increase recovery time after a charge attack is unleashed
Slower movement speed when charging
Reduce diversity:
1. Change to pure damage
2. Reduce damage output by 15%
3. Reduce damage output by 25%
Reduce the length of the charge attack but increase the width

Other, unlisted nerf?

Votes

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1. ░░0%
2. █░50%
3. █░50%
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CHAOS

A hot topic in recent discussions, the Chaos set is known for its vastly superior offensive stats over all other equipment, and its effect on the Mad Bomber set's redundancy. Apparently the Chaos set is intended to be a glass cannon, but its defenses still seem too high for its offensive stats.

Reduce abilities:
1. Reduce set abilities to CTR: VH, DMG: Med
2. Reduce set abilities to CTR: Med, DMG: VH
3. Remove the buff entirely, back to CTR: Med, DMG: Med
Change set abilities to CTR: Med, ASI: Med, DMG: Med
1. With MSI: Med
2. Without MSI
Remove Normal defense entirely
Increase status weaknesses:
1. by 50%
2. by 100%
3. add stun weakness

Other, unlisted nerf?

Votes

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1. █░50%
2. ░░0%
3. █░50%
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1. ░0%
2. █100%
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██████░░░67%
1. ██░░░░33%
2. ████░░66%
3. ██░░░░33%

Get voting!

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 09:53

Waffleconecake

moment pls

The charge in general :
Needs some slow on it, less for some of them more for others, like the voltedge should have the highest slow seeing how it is the strongest. In order of slow amount to highest slow to lowest it should be : Voltedge, Glacius, and a tie between the combuster and acheron.
I personally feel each one needs a some-what varying charge so they are not just re skins with different status/damage.
Each charge

Voltedge should instead cause some thing similar to that of a pulsar were it fires a large single orb like ground trail that detonates on contact with an enemy or wall causing large knock back and shock. This orb is restricted to the ground of course. It could possibly fire multiple so that it won't need a damage buff and can just have the same damage as the current trail.

Glacius should remain untouched MOSTLY but add a ice mist to the charge's attack so it won't break its own freeze with other explosions or at least have a chance to recover it. This mist will only last for 1.5 seconds or until another charge attack is used with a glacius by the same person. The damage should be reduced slightly on the charge so it will work more like a change then a buff.

The Combuster should have a mix between the Glascius's and Voltedge's charge were it fires a fireball that leaves a flame trail. Detonates on contact with enemy or wall and the flame/mist trail only lasts for .75 second(s?). Possibly not ground restricted. Possibly fires multiple if it is not air born, if it will be air born one should be it so it won't be abused as a gun with rapid fire.

I was not sure for the Acheron, the best I could come up with was either have it fire a gravity orb that deals no damage and simply a crowd control or have it keep the current charge attack. Feel free to elaborate on this one (or any for that matter).
Now its going to happen eventually, someone will make a thread again complaining about not having a stun or poison type of brandish so we might as well make a normal type brandish that causes stun and give the Cutlery sword poison.

The Sonic Boom will be the 5 star normal damage brandish, it fires a large gust of wind as its charge that can cause stun and deals damage over time to any thing caught in the gust of wind. The reason why it doesn't do high damage is because this is meant to be the "safest" of them all, for players who want a good safe sword that can help them in bad situations.

The damage of each
Needs to become pure. Why? They are used in too many situations because of the normal damage, I have seen more times were someone is using an Acheron in a graveyard then a Venom striker any were. All should be given a pure damage type and lower it slightly so it won't be brokenly strong but restrict what it will be strong against.

Now for the crafting
Lets start with the 2 stars. Make the "brandish" part of the Sonic Boom weapon line as the starting 2 star. Give all other "brandish line" swords their own two star variation. Why? The sword line current format makes it the best rage crafting item because you can make it into two damage types. Restricting what you need to start with in order to get the end sword you are after is a good start IMO. "What about the new players that don't know what they want to make for the brandish line?" They should just start the Sonic boom line then seeing how normal damage is the best all around damage type so it would be good for new players to start with that instead.

A slight side note(s)
Please start handing out the recipes to the Sonic boom crafting line for missions instead of the combuster line if it gets added.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 09:46

Hexzyle

Or you could just post a comment when you finish writing it. This thread isn't going to grow legs and run away.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 09:54

Qwote

woo, voting

blitz: 1-b
flourish: everything
rocket hammer: 1
polaris: everything
brandish: 1
chaos: everythi-- actually 1-a sounds nice

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 10:20

Waffleconecake

I mainly wanted to reserve

I mainly wanted to reserve first post on it in case some one posted any thing c;

For blitz needle I licked the idea for putting a hit cap were each monster can only be hit by a fixed number for shots per clip(?) or shot so that way to goes back to be a damage spread weapon.

For the florish line I feel re making the damage combo would be nice. Also adding a variation for each charge would also be nice. Like have the fire one were the player points the fire flourish up then does a 360 then forward poke causing a small fire ball to be launched that piercing enemies. This way if you hit the enemy with the Poke part of the charge they get knocked back with the fire ball so they take more damage. For the fearless maybe make the player do a fearless charge similar to a shield bash that causes a stun.

Oh rocket hammer, your my favorite weapon. Not even because of what you do, but how you get it. None the less I see why it needs to be nerfed :l
I just don't think it should be a crazy big nerf seeing how it is still a high risk for high damage style weapon. Unless you only use the first swing. Maybe just nerf the first swing so its less damaging so it implys to players to use the full combo but also risk getting hit more? Either way reducing the damage on the first swing and charge seems kinda fair but it should be put onto the final swing so the weapon doesn't get out classed by other elemental swords. Maybe even change the final swing to be a downward slam similar to the charge attack but smaller range so it has a wider area and a bit more damage to balance out the weaker first and dash.

For the Polaris B is best option. 2 shot clip is balanced.

I have said this before, but I shall say it again. Give the Chaos Cowl charge time reduction low and attack damage medium while the cloak charge time medium and attack damage low. This way the set as a whole gets Nerfed with out completely ruining it. maybe decrease the statues further as well.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 10:13

Thunder-The-Bright

ok.

@ waffle: here is only balancing, not branching. also, I personally don't want another alchemer-style recipe thing.
now, for everything else:
blitz: I agree with autofire on the other thread, already staded my idea there. re: make blitz an accelerating gun, low damage at short range and high damage at the end. I would also lower the damage by 10% if this is added, or 20% otherwise.
Flourish: needs less range and less damage.
Hammer: still haven't seen its full destructive attack capabilities, but nerfing damage and speed by 5-10% should be ok to me.
Polaris: lower the attack speed by a whole lot. so that the no asi of now becomes a tiny bit over the asi max of the future. Supernova should be faster.
Brandish line: damage twak, but only 5%, then change the charge attack from 5 explosions to a single burst that has the same range. it would be similar in functionality to the howls of the 5* antiguas.
Chaos: lower defense and double the weaknesses to statuses.
TL;DR:
2,6,4,6(2),3,5. i.e.: see up.

Wed, 06/19/2013 - 20:43

Waffleconecake

rawrsryueshf

@Thunder
The reason why I am considering the branching as also a nerf as it will take away the massive safety that comes with the charge attack and the damage that allows players to use them every were and puts it into just one brandish (the sonic boom). I don't think it makes them that gun like, or at least any more gun like then they currently are.

Also this is silly. Get out blitz, yr drunk.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 10:49

Hexzyle

@Waffleconecake I'd rather

@Waffleconecake

I'd rather keep the nerfs simple. If the developers want to revamp the whole lines, they can do so, but this nerf thread is for if they don't.
I added in point 3 for brandishes in order to alleviate the "too diverse" issue.

@Thunder-The-Bright

Your brandish tweak just makes the brandish into an Avenger. That would reduce its overall damage, so I took your comment as meaning that.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 11:09

Krakob

Blitz Needle

1b. One must think of the other autoguns, do not forget. More and I believe Blitz would be weaker than Plague's base damage, which would be too wrong. Damage sheet.

Flourish

2. Spiral Knights don't know how to use 'em pointy swords at all!

Rocket Hammer

Unlisted nerf: make the dash very weak (maybe about 25 per hit vs a regular Fiend/Slime on D24)

Polaris

2.
Unlisted nerf: change the shock inflicted from Moderate to Minor (arguably makes LD more pay to win as 7 shock resistance makes one able to resist the shock completely).
Identical nerfs can't be applied to Supernova.

Brandish (I disagree with your paragraph, Combuster is in my opinion the most overpowered sword in the game, PvP aside)

Unlisted nerf: reduce damage output by ~25%.

Chaos

4.
Unlisted nerf: okay, this isn't really a nerf as much as it is a counter-buff, but give Mad Bomber shadow defence to make it viable for Bombers.

Kudos to you for making this thread, Hexzyle. It was much needed.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 11:14

Onekone

Really?

Flourish
>Change the damage to split piercing/normal
How is that a nerf?

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 11:38

#10

Zeddy

Blitz
The Blitz is powerful, but it's also situational. I suggest, as a nerf, making all autogun charges firing about 24 bullets with regular damage instead of 15 bullets with charge damage. This would keep the blitz/plage powerful against their intended targets, buff status affliction rate, and weaken them against neutral targets. The charge attack would not take any longer to perform.

Flourish

"A weapon which eludes logic, the flourish is a pure damage dealing weapon, which completely ignores the split normal damage unwritten rule of melee weapons. This makes it overpowered in PvP, and underpowered in PvE."

No, it makes it underpowered both places. All currently existing split-damage weapons are blatantly overpowered, and at least one of the previously-existing ones, as well. Do you know what would happen if flourish and hammer turned split damage? Deathmarking recons would rule supreme, that's what. Suddenly both weapons would deal 280 extra damage on deathmarked targets rather than 140. Being pure damage is the only thing left holding these weapons back in both PvE and PvP.

"The first swing of the weapon is obnoxiously wide, fast, and causes interrupt."

So does every attack. Even the orb of a DR. Even the ghost swings on a cutter. Even antigua and valiance, which are both much longer reaching and faster than flourish could ever hope to be, both of which let the user move while using them.

"It deals the same damage as Calibur, despite having a wider range."

Which is incredibly balanced for this game! Certainly nothing compared to pepperbox vs blitz. Calibur is a defensive weapon, meant to keep enemies at bay with charge. Flourish, I imagine, is supposed to be risky in crowds, but rewarding, with the attacks and charge in particular sending you hurling forward into enemies. The problem is OOO probably didn't consider their players continously cancelling the first attack and exploiting the range it has on that one attack. This attack needs to be backloaded rather than frontloaded, or the initial swipe needs to have a low attack power so that it'd be used purely for its interruption, and it'd be a perfectly balanced weapon.

Hammer

See flourish, also:

"Although it is faster and hits harder than the Divine Avenger."

I would like to see a source cited for this. Is it true for all levels of damage bonus?

Polaris

My biggest gripe with this gun is how easy it is to use. In theory, Catalyzer is much more powerful, but it's so hard to use in comparison it's simply not worth it. The gun needs a total rework, and I'd do it like so:

The gun's unexpanded shots work like they currently do.
If unobstructed, the bullets will not expand. Instead they will land still on the ground (effectively reducing range).
The bullets are harmless after they've landed, but they explode after 3 seconds.

In other words, turn it into an actual grenade launcher. This will keep the gun viable as a crowd-control, area-denying tool, but the skill barrier will be raised immensly, and turn the gun into something unique instead of just being valiance for the unskilled.

Apply identical nerfs to Supernova. It's OP as well, and if Polaris weren't around everyone would be spamming that instead.

Brandish

Turn the projectiles pure damage. The status brandishes have the damage of a crystal bomb core (to encourage using them to spread status rather than damage), while the Acheron's explosions have the damage of dark matter shards.

Chaos

3 and 4-b. I have other suggestions, but applying both of those would work.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 11:38

#11

Thunder-The-Bright

split damage gets resisted both from piercing and normal defense.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 11:43

#12

Zeddy

@Thunder-The-Bright

That doesn't matter when split-damage weapons have about 50% more base damage than pure damage weapons to compensate. Notice how Divine Avenger and WRH are about equal against zombies? Zombies have elemental defence. Because of the split-damage nature of DA, DA grows stronger compared to its no bonus damage if you have max damage bonus than WRH does.

Edit: Try to do this with a rocket hammer. You can't. You can't because a rocket hammer can never, ever reach that much damage.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 12:05

#13

Thunder-The-Bright

ok.

@zeddy: ok, I got it. on pulsar line, knockback would be as a troika charge, right? sending enemies in one direction. otherwise it would be a portable nitrome. also, I don't like the range reduction. well, not so much. 3/4 of the range would do. also, how would the charge attack work?

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 12:11

#14

Gent-Soopakoopa

Floruish: Take away the

Floruish: Take away the flinch. That's it. Just take away that darned flinch.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 12:15

#15

Hexzyle

@Krakob1b. One must think of

@Krakob

1b. One must think of the other autoguns, do not forget. More and I believe Blitz would be weaker than Plague's base damage, which would be too wrong. Damage sheet.

For the sake of this thread, the other two autoguns are being ignored. We are still assuming that their damage is proportionate to the blitz. Not directly proportionate, but still proportionate. (So if Blitz gets a 40% damage nerf, Plague should be nerfed just enough so that it comes underneath that)

Unlisted nerf: okay, this isn't really a nerf as much as it is a counter-buff, but give Mad Bomber shadow defence to make it viable for Bombers.

Mad Bomber is viable for bombers. It always has been. The fact that bombers need a wider variety of defense types has been brought up before. We're not trying to make Mad Bomber "useful", we're trying to make Chaos "balanced".

@Zeddy

I shoulda known you'd come along and make me think about numbers.

Deathmarking recons would rule supreme, that's what

You mean people would play classes other than striker? How is that a bad thing?

This attack needs to be backloaded rather than frontloaded, or the initial swipe needs to have a low attack power so that it'd be used purely for its interruption, and it'd be a perfectly balanced weapon.

So do you mean the initial swipe range be decreased, damage be decreased, the whole combo reworked, or all three?

The gun needs a total rework, and I'd do it like so:

Unfortunately I'm just holding this thread for basic nerfs, to see what is a good and bad idea. I'd love to include your rework idea, but I'm trying to keep this thread simple until more feedback is achieved and I can flesh out the OP with a large array of different ideas. Has Luguiru covered anything regarding the Polaris in his thread?

DA grows stronger compared to its no bonus damage if you have max damage bonus than WRH does.

So you're saying damage bonuses boost normal damage more than they boost other damage?

I have other suggestions, but applying both of those would work.

Do tell.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 12:24

#16

The-Mighty-Potato

Let's nerf every item! :P

Blitz is only popular for Vana. If it gets buffed almost everyone that owns the gun is going to RAGE.

Hammer is a cheap version of DA without the dash, people have been complaining in PvP. Just bring some ele defence <_< Also, that dash is what makes it unique and dangerous. It may appear to be...OPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOP to some people but it has it's risks.

[Polaris information removed]

I don't have a problem with Flourishes. If it's pure piercing then that means that it will do barely any damage to any monster family other than Beast/Fiend.

For example,

To a Beast -
DA - 100+dmg per hit
Hammer - 40 - 50 per hit

Also reduce it's width? Im pretty sure it's width range is the same roughly as almost any sword, exept for brandish line/Fov/cutter. Infact I think the DA/GF's width is more.

Chaos, on the other hand definatley needs a nerf.

I think it should be either just CTR VH or DMG VH. One or the other, take your pick.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 12:30

#17

Krakob

@Hexzyle

Relatively viable, I guess. It's usable but seriously, no one will pick Mad over Chaos unless they are mad and/or a member of Shard Squad.

@Potato
Blitz is perfectly usable against beasts and fiends alike. I've cleared at least one Wolver Den using purely EV while my friend shot Blitz charges into them.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 12:34

#18

The-Mighty-Potato

@Krakob

The majority of people get blitz for Vana, and only Vana. No one does arcade anymore....which to be honest is a real shame...

Ragers will rage.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 12:49

#19

Krakob

@Potato

I occssionally do Arcade runs, most certainly will do even more in the future as I've recently acquired a great amount of funds, leaving FSC useful mostly for the great heat it offers. Let's not head further away from the topic, shall we?

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 12:49

#20

Zeddy

@Hexzyle

"So do you mean the initial swipe range be decreased, damage be decreased, the whole combo reworked, or all three?"

Curernt combo is swipe-stab-stab (the swipe is front-loaded). I'm suggesting the swipe either gets outright nerfed in terms of damage (buffing, perhaps, the second and third hits or something), or that the combo gets changed to stab-stab-swipe (backloaded). It's something a lot of people have suggested.

"So you're saying damage bonuses boost normal damage more than they boost other damage?"

All damage bonus is always 4%, but consider this.

Weapon A does 300 damage, but is reduced by 100 defence to 200.

Weapon B does 400 damage, but is reduced by 200 defence to 200.

Increase the damage of both weapons by 24%. What happens?

"Do tell."

I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but there's a recent suggestion thread on Chaos where I made some.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 14:16

#21

Klipik-Forum

Can we vote for more than one thing?

Blitz: Other

Flourish: 2

Hammer: 4

Polaris: 1a, 2 if I can vote twice
1

Brandish: Other

Chaos: 3, 4a if I can do that

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 15:19

#22

Waffleconecake

@The-Mighty-Potato

So did you not even look at my screen shot Potato? or did you ignore the two knights who were using a blitz needle on Iron Wall?

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 16:22

#23

Zeddy

@Waffleconecake

Once again, Big Iron is not actually resistant to piercing damage. He takes as much damage from piercing as from elemental, normal and shadow.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 16:57

#24

Waffleconecake

@zeddy

I recall from my last fight with him taking extra damage from my hammer. He is also labeled as a construction on the wiki on the battle pod page. It also says on the same page of battle pods that they resist piercing and are weak to elemental.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 18:35

#25

Zeddy

@Waffleconecake

Your recollection is faulty, and so is the wiki.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 20:14

#26

Waffleconecake

@zeddy

Well that's slightly depressing...
They should probably fix that. Either the wiki or the game.

Tue, 06/18/2013 - 20:25

#27

Klipik-Forum

I vote for the game.

Wed, 06/19/2013 - 04:07

#28

Hexzyle

@Klipik-Forum

Can we vote for more than one thing?

Yes, I mentioned that in the OP.

Blitz: Other

Although I admit that idea to be good, it's a weapon overhaul and I'd like to keep this thread regarding simple nerfs until a later date. I'm curious if the problem can be solved without putting in a great deal of time and redesign.

Wed, 06/19/2013 - 08:04

#29

Waffleconecake

Would it be possible to

Would it be possible to expand this into a "buffs and nerfs needed that everyone says but never happens. Mega thread."?

Wed, 06/19/2013 - 13:06

#30

The-Mighty-Potato

@Waffleconecake

I didn't ignore your screenshot because there isn't one...

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 00:59

#31

Hexzyle

@Waffleconecake

If you edit a previous comment one more time I'm going to discount it. I can't keep track of suggestions and opinions if they're not sorted chronologically. You don't have to have your ideas explained out early in the thread for me to read them.

One of the largest issues with this forum is people put their own popularity and ego above working with other people. I didn't create this thread in order to get noticed, like most people do, I created this thread to combat a problem. Not a problem with weapon balance, but a problem with forum mess, and divided minds. I took a leaf out of Severage's book. If you combine everyone's ideas with your own (and don't try to take credit for them) a lot more can get done.

Popularity is a byproduct of achievement, not the goal.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 02:08

#32

Atholl

Blitz:
2

Flourish:
1 & 5

Hammer:
1, 2 & 5

Polaris:
2 & 6

Brandish:
1 & 2

Chaos:
4-b

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 10:40

#33

Hexzyle

I'm having a lot of fun here. I have an obsession with percentages.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 13:21

#34

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Blitz: 2
Flourish: 2, 4 and 5
Rocket Hammer: 4 (It feels TOTALLY like a fast sword with huge hitboxes.)
Polaris: 2, 5 and 6, don't change supernova
Brandish: 2
Chaos: 3

Nice idea, Hex.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 13:47

#35

Bleyken

Blitz: 2
Chaos: 3

Polaris: Don't nerf

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:19

#36

Hexzyle

@Contri

If you would like to say something, I recommend you back it up with reasoning. Especially you of all people, biased by likely ownership of the weapon and its effects on your winnings in GvG.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 11:33

#37

Usevnsevnsixfivfor

Mr. Resetti...how could you?

The Blitz Needle is a gun that sacrifices mobility for damage, like Sudarska and Callahan should be doing. But I'll go with 1a.

The Flourish is not a heavy sword so it does not really deserve heavy sword width. Two.

Five for WRH as it seems fair.

1b, 2, and 6 for the Polaris. The shock should be low and only occur as a good chance when the bullet explodes. Keep the knockback as that's like removing the knockback from the Nitronome. This gun should sacrifice an awesome shock for okay shock and large knockback like a Storm Driver has no knockback but an awesome shock. And yes to a 2-shot clip.

Apply 1b to the Supernova.

For brandishes, you could just disable shield canceling after the charge attack.

Chaos should have 2 (minus the MSI) and 4b (and maximum stun weakness).

Sun, 06/23/2013 - 05:13

#38

Hexzyle

Do the right thing and you won't have to see him ^_^

For brandishes, you could just disable shield canceling after the charge attack.

Unfortunately, this isn't possible. But I'll put it down as you wanting a longer recovery after charge attack.

Sun, 06/23/2013 - 05:47

#39

Shotjeer

All right

I will not do all of them, but here we go.

Blitz: I think 2 would do nicely, as the bullet spread does get wider the further it goes. That means, you cant get a ton of damage off either point blank or far range. I think this would fit with that 20% dmg debuff, so the charge starts at 20% debuff, then as it travels, itll get back to original.

Brandishes: Alone, they are more or less balanced, but once they get a decent CTR UV, they are OP, I agree. Id suggest 1 and 2 together, for some pretty obvious reasons.

Hammer: Ive never actually owned this, but my friend let me try his, and I got myself killed with it. But it doesn't matter, because with this, Kats are completely laughable. Id say 4 and maybe 3, but mostly 4.

Sun, 06/23/2013 - 06:35

#40

Orangeo

@Hex It's a vote, and

@Hex
It's a vote, and although I disagree with contri in regards to the polaris, the whole point of a vote is to avoid people infinitely arguing. People don't have to show their reasoning.

Set the Flourish and RH lines to split damage, decrease knock back and size of expanded polaris shots.

Split damage makes weapons more useful in PVP and PVE. It's simply more difficult to block. In PvE, I can check what level I'm going into, and so long as it's a feind or beast level, I can bring a flourish for a GG. In PVP, partially-normal weapons are almost always blocked, so that effectively lowers their damage/increases the damage of pure weapons by comparison. If you do go out of your way to block a specific damage type, you can hurt an enemies flourish much worse than any other type of weapon, but if they change to another weapon, chances are you won't defend against that.

Polaris is a bomb for strikers. There's a reason that class has a charge time increase, and the Polaris completely works around that.

Sun, 06/23/2013 - 08:47

#41

Zeddy

@Orangeo

All weapons in Lockdown are blocked. Making a weapon split damage won't be a nerf, because it will be accompanied with an absolutely enormous damage boost to compensate. Sure, if WRH's current damage got chopped up in one normal half and one elemental half, that'd be a pretty big nerf. That's not going to happen. Instead we're going to see the total damage get boosted and probably get the exact level of damage that Divine Avenger has.

Let me do some quick math and demonstrate that Divine Avenger is more powerful than WRH.

At depth 25 (the Lockdown depth) Divine Avenger has about 531 base damage on the first hit. If you're interested to see how exactly I came to that conclusion, I've got a couple of threads for it.

Warmaster Rocket Hammer has about 385 base damage on the first hit.

A depth 25 zombie has 70 elemental defence and 140 normal defence.

A knight in Lockdown wearing full skolver has 100 elemental defence and 145 normal defence. Yes, that's not a typo or anything. If you're not wearing any elemental armour at all, you still have 100 elemental defence. Same goes for piercing, shadow and normal. The full normal protection of a skolver only provides 40 piercing defence and 45 normal defence. This is much, much less than it does in the clockworks.

One more thing. DA's 531 damage is split in two. It works exactly like two weapons where one does 265.5 normal damage and the other 265.5 elemental.

Okay, so let's apply those numbers.

Divine Avenger versus...
...undead in the clockworks: 315
...slime in the clockworks: 239
...Skolver in Lockdown: 280-ish
...Vog in Lockdown: 235-ish

Warmaster Rocket Hammer versus...
...undead in the clockworks: 315
...slime in the clockworks: 245
...Skolver in Lockdown: 285
...Vog in Lockdown: 245

Okay, so far it does look like WRH is leading, if only by 1/4th of a pip against Vogs and 1/8th of a pip against Skolvers. Here's the problem though: What happens if we apply max damage bonus?

DA max bonus: 531 * 124% = 658
WRH max bonus: 385 * 124% = 477

Let's get right down to it:

Divine Avenger versus...
...undead in the clockworks: 448
...slime in the clockworks: 378
...Skolver in Lockdown: 413
...Vog in Lockdown: 373

Warmaster Rocket Hammer versus...
...undead in the clockworks: 407
...slime in the clockworks: 337
...Skolver in Lockdown: 377
...Vog in Lockdown: 337

DA pulls ahead by a full pip against every enemy. Nice nerf, guys!

Sun, 06/23/2013 - 17:03

#42

Klipik-Forum

>_>

" the whole point of a vote is to avoid people infinitely arguing. "

*Starts argument*

¬.¬;

Sun, 06/23/2013 - 22:53

#43

Hexzyle

@Orangeo
It's a vote, and although I disagree with contri in regards to the polaris, the whole point of a vote is to avoid people infinitely arguing. People don't have to show their reasoning.

I counted his votes, my comment was in reference to him saying the Polaris shouldn't be changed.'

@Zeddy
DA pulls ahead by a full pip against every enemy. Nice nerf, guys!

It doesn't matter, because the Rocket Hammer makes up for that in speed. It's way too fast for a weapon with damage nearly on par with the Divine Avenger, that's what I was talking about from the beginning.

Sun, 06/23/2013 - 23:26

#44

Klipik-Forum

Well since we're discussing things anyway...

Zeddy, what is the damage for two first swings of a DA versus three first swings of a WRH? Because those both take about the same time.

@Hex: you should add an option for "leave as is" on everything.

Sun, 06/23/2013 - 23:56

#45

Hexzyle

@Klipik-Forum

Hex: you should add an option for "leave as is" on everything.

Um... ok.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 08:39

#46

Atholl

Since i posted without

Since i posted without explaining anything about my decisions, let me fix it now:

Blitz:
2
Only doing full damage at maxium distance means that we will do that much damage only to Vana while the other monsters can still survive because of the reduced damage or by the reduced number of hits (if at max distance)

P.S.: Hex, how much damage it deals at the shortest distance possible ?

Flourish:
1 & 5
Call me crazy but to my opinion no swords should do pure damage, and since it is faster than the (let's say) Leviathan while having the same damage means that it has much higher dps

Hammer:
1, 2 & 5
Again i don't think that pure damage on swords should be done, and toning down the total damage by 10% and dramatically decreasing the dash damage will make it for utility than for damaging.

Polaris:
2 & 6
reducing shock chance and duration/ will have a mayor impact on LD (since being shocked equals death) while much less impact on the PvE

Brandish:
1 & 2
To my opinion the charge attack should be high risk high reward (that's why i'm not touching the damage/length/width) but now it's just high reward

Chaos:
4-b
This or reducing the weakness on the mad bomber by 50%

On a side note, Hex since you created this thread what are your votes on the nerfs ?

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 07:02

#47

Zeddy

@Hexzyle and Klipik

Yes, WRH is a more powerful weapon than DA due to the dash, that was never my point. The point is that making WRH split-damage like the DA would be a buff, not a nerf. Unless the total damage wasn't increased to match DA. (It would be.)

Just 'cause you asked though (both weapons with max damage):

Divine Avenger combo versus...
...undead in the clockworks: 448 + 564 = 1012
...slime in the clockworks: 378 + 494 = 872
...Skolver in Lockdown: 413 + 529 = 942
...Vog in Lockdown: 373 + 489 = 862
...Deathmarked in Lockdown: 658 + 774 = 1432

Warmaster Rocket Hammer combo versus...
...gun puppy in the clockworks: 407 + 3 * 290 + 479 = 1756
...polyp in the clockworks: 337 + 3 * 220 + 409 = 1406

Keep in mind that in Lockdown, only one dash hit can connect due to invinciframes
...Skolver in Lockdown: 377 + 260 + 449 = 1086
...Vog in Lockdown: 337 + 220 + 409 = 966
...Deathmarked in Lockdown: 477 + 360 + 549 = 1486

Now let's "nerf" WRH so that it's split damage. The first hit and last hit would correspond to Divine Avenger. The middle hit...

well, let's assume OOO "balanced" the attack so that it dealt the same amount of damage right now against a construct assuming no damage bonus. So versus a construct, with no bonus, the numbers would look like this:

315 + 3 * 221 + 414

If OOO were to go ahead with your suggestion, I think the numbers would most likely end up being that. After all, your suggestion is "make the weapon split damage" and not "just decrease the damage because our actual problem with this weapon is that the damage is too high". Let's apply.

Split-damage Warmaster Rocket Hammer combo versus...
...gun puppy in the clockworks: 448 + 3 * 324 + 564 = 1984
...polyp in the clockworks: 378 + 3 * 254 + 494 = 1634
...Skolver in Lockdown: 413 + 289 + 529 = 1231
...Vog in Lockdown: 373 + 249 + 489 = 1111
...Deathmarked in Lockdown: 658 + 534 + 774 = 1966

And before you point it out, let me show what would happen if we were to literally just convert WRH to split damage without increasing base damage at all.

Split-damage Warmaster Rocket Hammer combo versus...
...gun puppy in the clockworks: 267 + 3 * 150 + 339 = 1056
...polyp in the clockworks: 197 + 3 * 80 + 169 = 606
...Skolver in Lockdown: 232 + 115 + 304 = 651
...Vog in Lockdown: 192 + 75 + 264 = 531
...Deathmarked in Lockdown: 477 + 360 + 549 = 1486

It'd become a useless piece of garbage, each hit never reaching up to the damage potential of Valiance unless the target is deathmarked. Keep in mind these numbers are wildly inaccurate due to them being so low, even at max damage bonus, that they're all below the defence tresholds.

So yes, changing the damage type would have to come with a damage boost. This is not optional.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 07:46

#48

Waffleconecake

@Zeddy

That is why I suggest instead of a pure nerf we move the damage from the dash and to the final swing because it is the most dangerous to finish with OR make the dash shred elemental resistance instead of deal damage. This would make getting that high damage more risky. But obviously this would be a bit unfair seeing how small(not that small, but for this amount of risk for the only good damage source is unfair) the final swing is so maybe making it a downward swing like the charge but not as big with the radius.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 07:47

#49

Hexzyle

@Atholl
P.S.: Hex, how much damage it deals at the shortest distance possible ?

It doesn't really matter, it's the concept that counts. But for example, let's say a 30% reduction?

On a side note, Hex since you created this thread what are your votes on the nerfs ?

Pretty much everything up there, I agree with. For the Blitz, I'd prefer if the charge damage was brought down and the regular attack was brought up, then an overall damage nerf applied (so pretty much everything except #2)
Especially the Polaris too, it's too good at everything (applying status, blinding, knock back, and too many bullets hanging around long enough to be a pain in the butt) and doesn't have a weakness (unexpanded bullets are still dangerous)

@Zeddy

And before you point it out, let me show what would happen if we were to literally just convert WRH to split damage without increasing base damage at all.

I said "Change the damage to split Normal/Elemental", not "Split the damage to normal and elemental". The former means "change the X elemental damage so that it's now Y normal and Y elemental damage where Y is equivalent to the normal damage of a similar speed split damage weapon", while the latter means "change the X elemental damage so that it's now X/2 normal and X/2 elemental damage"

Unless the total damage wasn't increased to match DA. (It would be.)

Once again, why would the damage be buffed to the DA when the Hammer is obviously much faster than it? That's like saying "The Troika is too strong, let's nerf it down to Calibur range and damage" while leaving it as a slow, two hit weapon.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 08:40

#50

Zeddy

@Hexzyle

Alright then. So how much damage boost would this nerf give?

Keep in mind that Brandish was adjusted to be comparable to Leviathan Blade before damage bonus, making it pull much further ahead than Levi when damage bonus is applied. Similarly, Avenger was adjusted to be comparable to Troika. This is depiste Leviatahan's charge being weaker than Brandish and Troika being slower than DA.

So another question is "how much damage boost do you think OOO would give to Hammer when they apply this nerf?"

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