Spiral Knights - Crafting is more difficult now, isnt it? (about Forge)

Crafting is more difficult now, isnt it? (about Forge)

64 replies [Last post]

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 13:09

Canine-Vladmir

Since the update of Tue, 07/30/2012, crafting a simple object is a pain for us who do not grind the game.
I play about one hour of Spiral Knights daily or tri-weekly (3x/week).

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The Forge
Items that acquire heat will no longer automatically level up when enough heat is required at the end of a level. Instead, a new type of item called ‘Fire Crystals’ must be used within a new interface called ‘The Forge’ in order to level up your items. Fire crystals include:
- Cracked Fire Crystal
- Dim Fire Crystal
- Warm Fire Crystal
- Glowing Fire Crystal
- Shining Fire Crystal
- Radiant Fire Crystal

The Forge can be accessed in town or at any arsenal station. When an item is ready to level up, open the Forge and select the item. The item will require a certain number of a specific fire crystal to level up. However, in some cases there is a chance the forge will not succeed and the fire crystals will be lost. No heat is ever lost due a failed forging.

Additionally, players have the option to add more than the requisite fire crystals in order to improve the odds of a successful forge as well as the chance to gain a special bonus. These bonuses include:
- Heat Bonus: +25% (one level)
- Double Level Up!
- Forge Prize Box containing a random assortment of various rarities and other items (prize box and contents are bound)

Fire crystals may be purchased in stacks in the Supply Depot, acquired via missions or found as loot in treasure blocks.

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So many Fire Crystals
Why so many fire crystals need to forge just one level of heat? Sure, crafting and heating 2* and 3* are easy, But heating 4* and 5* is a pain, moreover when I do not grind the game. How can i attain 100's of fire crystals if I do not play enough? Previously, I could craft a 5* item for 800CE in a week or two and heat it in a couple of days. This update is probably gonna cost me weeks to heat up a 4* item just to craft a 5* (and then heating the crafted items to level 10).

% chance of Forging
Forge is definitely broken. 60% of Successful Forging means 6 times out of 10, its gonna be successful. Either I'm unlucky or anything else but 100% chance is rigged. And then again, this is just to get from one level of heat to the other. I have to do this 10 more times for the gear's stat to be useful.

For me, Forge and this 7/20/13 Update is plainly...
Easy to Craft, Impossible to Level Up.

what do you think?

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 13:21

Demonicsothe

as stated before

The focus has shifted to the heating process rather than the upgrading. Instead of grinding Cr to buy CE to upgrade, you are grinding crystals alongside crowns while having a chance to find an alch orb to lower the upgrade cost.

60% chance doesn't not guarantee 6 success every ten crafts. It means that every time you craft, there is a 40% chance of failing.

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 13:26

Burq

Yep

Pretty much agreed in all regards: before you could play an hour or an hour an a half and you could still make enough to craft things in a week at that pace; now you NEED to invest more time to get the same effect, thou now you also need to play different levels from before and depend more on the mercy of the RNG goddess to get enough fire crystals to forge.

I think it would be better if you could buy crystals at the supply depot at a much cheaper price: 700 ce for 50 radiant fire crystals? that doesnt even get me 70% of forging success when dealing with level 8 and up 5* items!

I wonder if OOO will make a similar pass to the elevators pass but for forging: like 6 dollars for a month of forging only using half or less the normal amount of crystals or something to make forging less painful. Because seriously, it's really painful heating multiple 4* items and up...

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 13:37

Kickthebucket

it sucks... yesgod i've been

it sucks... yes

god i've been leveling a damn nightblade from lvl 4 a few days after the update (had i known i would have crafted it with energy seeing it was MUCH cheaper and faster)

now i'm stuck at lvl 8!! allready lost a few hundred crystals because every damn fricking time i try to forge with less crystals it fails!! (yes 4 fricking times in a row stupid piece of @#*$!!!)

also started to craft a sentenza... god it's going NOWHERE!!!! it will take me 2/3 months to get just these 2 to 5* lvl 10... and after that? i will never craft a SINGLE item ever again!!!

way to encourage crafting there OOO -_- give us back energy crafting!!!! NOW!!!

an other thing popped into my mind, now what's the use of Heat Amplifier??? they hardly got used before and now they are just... useless :s you'll heat the damn thing faster then you can find the damn crystals anyway... worst part of any update in this game EVER! -_-

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 13:33

Neodasus

You guys do understand that

You guys do understand that this is the only way to offset the free elevators right? There needs to be some sort of roadblock to prevent you from progressing so rapidly. The forge is the best way to do it, and a brilliant way to monetize Spiral Knights. People pay BIG MONEY for damage.

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 13:44

Paweu

ITT: people spoiled by

ITT: people spoiled by leeching donated heat in FSC

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 13:56

Kickthebucket

i solo'd this game for god

i solo'd this game for god knows how long... and i could lvl a weapon every day (most of the time i took a 1 day brake and used my mist energy to craft)

yes, that's from start to finish in 1 day if i wanted to -_-

this stupid system takes you 1 week just to get past 1 fricking lvl!!!! (if you're lucky enough to find 100+ crystals...) you also have to do boring T1 lvls just to get past the first few lvls!!!

everything about the forge is stupidly anoying!
before you payed 700CE to lvl up from 4* to 5* and now you have to pay 1400+CE to get past 1 fricking lvl! now you realy have to be stinking rich AND work 2 jobs if you want to BUY energy to craft...

now i have to do full T3 gate runs because i need both 4* and 5* crystals...

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 14:09

Demonicsothe

O.o

I'm encouraging everyone to just ignore the kicked bucket.

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 14:28

Kickthebucket

they can if they want to

they can if they want to ;)

otherwise they can enjoy the facts :D

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 20:23

Mr-Freckles

I agree with Kickthebucket

Kickthebucket is totally right, i am trying to level my divine avenger, it was a level 8 before the update, and i got it there in like 1 week, now after the update it has been 2 weeks and i only got it to level 9, this is horrible!

I understand that this balances out the free elevators, but this has tipped the scale too far!

I also wish that the heat you collected once you hit maximum while you were waiting to get crystals did not just disappear, they should make like an area that collects your excess heat, that will transfer to your newly leveled items. (I hope everyone understood that)

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 20:29

#10

Rezzler

^That second part i agre with

^That second part i agre with definitely. But the first part: free elevators is HUGE. The forge balances this quite well.

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 21:17

#11

Shotjeer

Well

Unfortuanate people like me only have 30 minutes on computer all day (not forums) and ley me tell you, it takes five days to get the crystals I need for 100% heat,and because my time limit, Free elevators do me no good. 30 minutes translates to about 1 FSC run, so now I gotta do FSC week after week for it. But still. The game is still fun. When my weapons reach level 8 imma just say "screw it" and go on a decent run for once.

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 21:33

#12

Theopholis

I dunno.

I've crafted more things in a shorter period of time since the update than ever before. I'm finding plenty of crystals and orbs playing on elite mode. Not only that, but my gear generally seems to be hitting full heat just as I gather enough crystals to level it up; probably because I heat it while farming the crystals in the appropriate depths of the arcade.

Doing all FSC runs will mean that your gear heats too quickly for the amount of crystals you're bringing in. But the game was never meant to be played that way. Go find some danger rooms, and you'll have plenty of crystals by the time your gear needs them.

You can also heat multiple things at once, to prevent your heat from going to waste.

You don't need to level up all your items in a day. Enjoy the four(star)play for a bit.

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 21:58

#13

Mr-Freckles

I see what u guys are saying, I guess I should try playing on elite more often, but i still don't think the free elevators equal the forge, I would play for well over an hour and never hit my mist limit, now I hit the limit for leveling every day. Still fun, but more frustrating. OOO was smart, this is making me want to pay more $$$ for energy and mist.

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 22:17

#14

Leekcoco

Just enjoy the game and forge

Just enjoy the game and forge along the way. Instead of focusing on making things, enjoy being able to try different levels without mist limits. Over time you'll realise you have enough to forge a level and then another. I've succeeded a 20% forge yesterday taking the risk on a whim, so don't ragequit just yet.

Wed, 08/07/2013 - 22:38

#15

Korakc

@Mr. Freckles,Taking out the

@Mr. Freckles,

Taking out the energy system means that ALL elevator costs are free. I would say the average knight plays 1 and a half hours, 2 hours per day. When the old energy system was here, after 100 Mist Energy, you either bought more or were done for the day. Many players, like the noobies, don't have the CR to buy energy, so taking that out can support growth. If they play 1 1/2 - 3 hours a day, they will easily exceed 100 energy. At the same time, older players that play more often can also play to their heart's content. The point of the forge is for players to go out and do missions and runs for heat. Pretty much taking ele costs out takes the cost to essentially get heat and CR from the level. Since they took ele costs out, balance the game the forge was made. I probably made this hard to understand, but it's the middle of the night so blehhgh

Thu, 08/08/2013 - 00:21

#16

Xxpapaya

The papaya cries

I'm starting to miss the ol' SK D:

Thu, 08/08/2013 - 00:38

#17

Superssonic

The only issue I have with

The only issue I have with this is having to play on the lower depths if I want to level a low star item, it would be nice if you could use the 5 star radiant fire crystals to level the lower star items.

Thu, 08/08/2013 - 01:18

#18

Mr-Freckles

@Korakc

"The point of the forge is for players to go out and do missions and runs for heat." @Korakc

Exactly, but you end up getting heat much faster then you get crystals, I have over 50 radiant crystals now and I still can't level up my divine avenger past the 40% (too risky). I think I am still getting used to it, I'll probably get a forge box and be posting something about how awesome the forge is later on. I think this will make the game take longer to complete (not a bad thing). Oh and don't worry I could understand fine. (I am in Hawaii, time is different, around dinner time right now).

Thu, 08/08/2013 - 01:51

#19

Thunder-The-Bright

in the end, the only thing OOO must do is lower the prices of crystals in the supply depot so someone starts actually buying them. right now nobody does that but the ones who have tons of ce.
the new heat system is the new ce. you grind a lot or you pay. exept now you can pay with ce instead of money.

Thu, 08/08/2013 - 06:23

#20

Burq

@Thunder-The-Bright

I'd actually do that if the price drops enough, because if I have to do 3 FSC runs to get enough crystals to level up my Valiance to level 10 from 9 when I had it heated 3 days before again... seriously, it's pretty annoying.

Also, I wonder , with what Thunder-The-Bright said, if OOO will do a Fire Crystal promo along side Energy promos since the crystals ARE basically the new ce.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 15:57

#21

Goldenmariopower

They ruined the game

I cant believe they did something like this, but then again I can because its a total money grab, anyone who says its to balance out free elevators is STUPID AS [stuff]. get this straight, elevators were always free, and after your free floors it was never very expensive to continue...

THIS NEW FORGE SYSTEM IS SO EXPENSIVE OMG...I am sure that after this update they lost a lot of players, the game required now that you buy tons of CE, and also when items are ready to forge they don't get anymore heat, which means all the heat you get just goes to waste.

I was just about to get back into this game after awhile of not playing but seeing this garbage I cant because its so bad.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 16:10

#22

Agent-Fungoose

I like how when I play the

I like how when I play the game for 30 mins it feels as if it's been 2 hours. Don't you dare talk about FSC with me.

EDIT: It's not hard to get crystals. Elite mode + Tier 3 + 2 basil runs = 60 shining crystals (estimation, sometimes more)
Make sure to start from the subtown.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 17:43

#23

Spinex

@Canine-Vladmir

The signs of the times! Nick puts karma right behind us, so we'll buy what is secretly ce. F2P depression will resume! This time even harder! I know my SK history! Life is never easy! Nick knows this quote "Everything's better with money!"

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/86419

P.S. Where's your mist now to open a dam^ gate!

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 18:10

#24

Warp-Master

@Hanko

Yeah, that still needs done.

As for people complaining about the forge, STFU and go play Arcade. Rarities drop from treasure boxes, and crystals drop from boxes in stacks of 3. Missions have barely any treasure boxes. Do the math.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 18:24

#25

Aplauses

People complain about people always grind FSC

SK add forge system

Arcade is now lively again.

People still complaining.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 18:42

#26

Canine-Vladmir

I understand how it actually benefits players who actually on Spiral Knights for hours. If you play for hours, finding and making items are a snap. Its a great reward for yous Spiral Knights super fans. But...

For us casual gamer, which i believe is a big part of the SK population, its a huge wall to overcome. These free elevators do not help me at all mostly because before the update, i probably used 60 energy to play. Now im asking myself, Why waste an hour slaying enemies (which i have done for 2 years now) trying to find these crystals. (i do Arcade runs) when I can go casually game somewhere else?
Crafting new stuff keeps me in the game. not heating.

Pretty much, this update Helped sooo many players, just not me.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 18:53

#27

Agent-Fungoose

How long does it take to do a

How long does it take to do a pre-terminal run? This new forge system is fine. The complainers are people who want everything handed to them without them making any effort. Play the arcade, and you get around 30 crystals or more, it's that easy. Of course, those 30mins in the arcade feel more like 2 bloody hours (unless it's solo and on normal).

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 18:53

#28

Agent-Fungoose

How long does it take to do a

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 19:06

#29

Iapnez

"I've failed an upgrade four

"I've failed an upgrade four fricken times!"

Then save up for the 100% chance, you dolt. -w-

The new heat system is a great way to offset your free elevators, AND the fact that you can be getting free alchemy orbs. Play on elite for the crystal and orb drops. It's not that hard.

I don't think I've heard very many complaints from my guildies. Seems most of 'em are either fine with the update, or they can say why they don't like it in a non-whiny way.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 19:30

#30

Agent-Fungoose

The whole point of the

The whole point of the gameplay of the game is to play in the Arcade. You're basically getting bonus stuff for diving down in the clockworks; why do you guys care so much about gear for? Gear is just gear! It's just like in FSC before this update, you all grinded there for hours and hours to get heat, and then, finally, once you got your weapon to max heat level 10, what did you guys do next? Ya'll went back to grinding in FSC... .... Gamer logic, I just can't comprehend it... You guys play Spiral Knights for the epic gear and not for the gameplay of the game no'r it's interesting lore. and so this is why I do not call myself a gamer. I may play games, I may become an addict and loose track of time, but I will never let go of the morals of why I even play virtual games; a fantasy adventure bristling with beautiful imagination.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 19:53

#31

Knight-Along

RE Stupid new update

Well, I'm off to grind Jelly King 2 hours a day so I can afford to level up ONCE ON ONE FRICKING SWORD!

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 20:35

#32

Fehzor

Yeah, crafting gear takes much longer now. But at the same time, it equalizes it for everyone.

Before, if I wanted to craft a 5* weapon, I'd have to play for like, 2-3 hours and sacrifice several days of energy. Many players that I ran into had to play for like, several hours straight to fund their crafting which was problematic. OOO is really discouraging players from crafting gear forcefully with their wealth, and is encouraging players to play the game rather than the market.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 20:49

#33

Sonofgunz

No problem with the forge system at all!

The update really helped me a lot
I used to kill Vana for like 10 times everyday
With the need update I don't have to caz I don't have to worry about profit

So I started to play arcade, I find crystals and orbs are so easy to get that I can start leveling up so many abandoned gear. Oh and many of them are 4 and 5 star now

I guess the reasons for ya to have trouble are : ya don't even know what is speed run / you guys always have your battle sprite with you so it chews up all the damn heat / you always wanna gamble a bit and use less fire crystals, ya know percentage sucks real bad just like the one with lockboxes

End.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 22:18

#34

Iapnez

+1 to Sonofgunz

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 22:59

#35

Mr-Freckles

Don't want to sound rude but...

I have to disagree with alot of the positive posts...

Bich-Long is right
Goldenmariopower is right
Kickthebucket is right
Shotjeer is right

For all casual players who don't play more then an hour or so, this new update is MUCH harder. Even on elite the drops don't come fast enough. And at Bushido-Brownies, are u crazy! 30 minutes in the arcade does NOT equal 30 crystals, i get about 6 in that time, on elite on tier 3, so i don't know what you are talking about. I always wait till 100%, but with a 5 star sword, at level 9, i have over 80 radiant crystals and i STILL don't have enough to level it. I have been doing levels for over a week, and NOTHING has been leveled up in that time. I don't like it. AT ALL.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 23:54

#36

Pdtopgun

The new system is great

Honestly, I'd MUCH rather have it be easy to craft but hard to level than how it was previously. Playing sporadically, it used to take me a couple of weeks to scrounge up 700 CE for a 5-star craft, and that was after the time it took to save up 25k CR for the recipe. (If it's a Basil recipe, you throw the searching time on top of all that.) Then I'd have to wait until my ME was refilled, perform the craft, and then wait another day for my ME to refill again so that I could actually play the game and use the new weapon. Yeah, the new weapons you made were easy to heat, but what was the point when you'd be stuck using only them for a long time anyway? They could have taken three times as long and I wouldn't have noticed, since I'd still be working on my next craft.

But now, well, I just crafted THREE five-star items over the past two days, including the Perfect Seerus Mask that I'd been putting off forever because I figured I won't use it much. With the rate I've seen Alchemy Orbs dropping on Elite difficulty, I don't think it'll take too long until my next craft. I'm finally free to experiment with the full arsenal and try new items just for the hell of it, instead of having to plan and save for ages just to get one thing to five stars. And yes, the heating takes more effort now, but...who cares? At least I have the items in the first place, and I don't need them to hit level 10 right away in order to get good use out of them. Not to mention the fact that the one Elite FSC run I did was practically raining Fire Crystals, and I hear that Arcade runs might get an even better rate, since they tend to have more crates. I don't see it taking all that long at all to get through most of the levels.

Fri, 08/09/2013 - 23:59

#37

Skold-The-Drac

*witnesses complaints*

Well, now in place of CE, it's heat crystals...

game hasn't changed much in my opinion in the small hours I've played. Course I'm a bomber that stayed 4* for the longest time because I couldn't decide on what I wanted. If you're so focused on the weapon upgrades, I believe you're missing the intention.

Nick himself said in a prior update (or at least one could relatively quickly derive from what he actually posted) is that SK's focus was going to turn towards lowering the amount of linearity within the game. One very linear portion of the game was crafting stuff, now you have a chance to fall flat on your face while crafting. Good news is that you can go through as many arcade levels as you desire and could achieve a deeper understanding of the clock works in even more instances, to the point you could almost know the map by the orientation of the elevator. Additional good news is that 5* vets can feel an even more wholesome sense of accomplishment when they obtain their 5* items.

You've been given pets, free elevators, and an extremely nice f2p point, in which you could get close to all the gear within SK that's not an accessory for no money. Nobody absolutely has to buy crystal energy/crystals/orbs. To counteract this extreme liberty, they make it a grind to achieve that. Aka, your CE whining just got a different paint job, now called crystal grinding.

Sad thing is, speedrunners and darkfang hunters alike will be having a lovely field day under this era.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 00:24

#38

Agent-Fungoose

"And at Bushido-Brownies, are

"And at Bushido-Brownies, are u crazy! 30 minutes in the arcade does NOT equal 30 crystals, i get about 6 in that time, on elite on tier 3, so i don't know what you are talking about."

@Mr.Freckles
I get 6 crystals for one depth, sometimes more than just 6. Is the game fixed or something? Have some of us been blessed with receiving piles of crystals while others have barely scrapped for maybe 3 or 4? I start from the subtown and make my way down to the terminal, scoring around 24+ crystals.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 00:51

#39

Cobaltstarfire

I'm not sure where I stand on

I'm not sure where I stand on crafting in relation to everyone, on one hand it's not any more difficult now than before- on the other hand I play on elite in the clockworks and for normal missions. And you do get considerably more heat crystals for running on elite than on advanced or normal (about 3 times more on average). Going from emberlight to the core typically gets me about 35 heat crystals.

So for me personally, there really isn't any difference (I'd actually venture to say it might be a little faster as long as you save up for 100% on the forge every time).

However if you aren't up to doing elite runs I can see where it'd feel more like a wall, in the long run this might hurt the people who play more casually if they want to get something done in a hurry, (which is a little contradictory of being a casual in my opinion). For the past year and a half up until now I've played very sparingly, and yes it did in some cases months to fully heat up some of my 5* gear cause I tend to solo or duo, didn't play daily, nor do boss strata much (too time consuming).

I have a feeling though if OOO feels the average player is progressing too slowly they will adjust the drop rates for fire crystals, part of the reason for the changes after all were stated to be that they wanted people to experiment more with different types of gear, and if the forge turns into too much of a wall because people are hording their crystals than it's failing to do what OOO intended.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 04:59

#40

Remove-The-Forge

Damn OOO

Hear ye, hear ye!
OOO buries the hatchet with energy, but creates a worse problem with heating!

But srsly imo, the forge is a huge problem. Either the amount needed for minumum crystals needs to be lowered, the success rate increased for minumum (cause it's as broken as it is, atm not worth doing min), the crystal drop rate increased (even when you find a load crystals in a floor, it's STILL not enough (See Bushido's Post)) or the whole system needs to be scrapped and rethought.

Also I hate when I'm doing vana and one of my weapons levels, but I have to wait the whole thing just to forge it. It's ridiculous. Did OOO forget to put arsenals at the start of the boss missions with the exception of the first one? (I believe this has been discussed before, but I believe there is no reason in the world to not put arsenals at the start of EVERY boss mission, not just the first one. And if there's a problem with that, then fine! Just make like an anvil thing or something where you can access the forge and put it in place of that, but please don't let this go unnoticed!)

Also, the 100% chance uses way too many crystals. I understand there's bonuses with it, but come on.

I come back from 2 years of inactivity to this? Shame on you. All of you ;_;

That includes you, OOO :/

(Forge... whatever next)

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 05:12

#41

Privateriem

Crystals are too rare in the

Crystals are too rare in the clockworks, and too easy to aquire farming missions.
That is just wrong.

Elite orbs of Alchemy simply don't drop at all.
After farming non-stop since the patch, I found 3, playing with no life for 9+ hours a day (Didn't have work those days)
I eventually gave in, used my stockpiled CE to buy them off the depot. I bought 9, crafted my 4* armor, 4* bomb and I still have some left for when I find the damn recipe for the Kilowatt pulsar. I also need to change my shield.

I'd still be farming with my subpar gear right now if I didn't buy them off the damn depot.
The drop rate is FAR TOO LOW.
Plus, if an orb drop, it could be either 3*, 4*, or 5* depending on where you're farming. There isn't a place where only 4* orbs drop.

As for leveling goes, you shouldn't need crystals at all if you don't have them. Increase the heat required for leveling an item by 2-3-4x (pick one, I don't care) then have heat crystals act as a shortcut to the next level (being available far before reaching max heat), instead of a requirement. If you have the crystals, you save a lot of time on leveling. If you don't, you still eventually get your levels, but very very slowly.

Following that idea, min option for heating should always be 100%. Then decrease said % for med and max, and add stronger bonuses (double level at 80%, triple level at 60 something)

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 06:29

#42

Spinex

LOL

Fofo in your face.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 13:34

#43

Mr-Freckles

@Cirnothebaka & @Bushido-Brownies

@Cirnothebaka I totally agree with you, and i think that anvil thing is a really good idea. I mean a REALLY good idea.

@Bushido-Brownies Maybe i am just unlucky, i usually get about 3 crystals each floor, in an arcade room on elite, and if i DO get crystals they are rarely what i need, i need radiant crystals, and i only get those about every other floor.

Sat, 08/10/2013 - 13:55

#44

Remove-The-Forge

@Mr-Freckles Now please come

@Mr-Freckles