Spiral Knights - Blitz vs Callahan

Blitz vs Callahan

25 replies [Last post]

Mon, 09/23/2013 - 07:43

Battlegrinder

I'm working on upgrading my 3* gear up to 4* as I prepare to enter T3, and I'm wondering which piercing gun is more useful. I know that the blitz is really handy for FSC, but how useful is it in other areas, and how effective is it when used on devilites and wolvers? Does it do better than callahan?

Edit: I forgot to mention that I'm a sword/gun hybrid, so I also use the flourish. His well do the piercing guns stack up against flourish-line weapons, given that wolvers and devilites don't try to dodge melee attacks?

Mon, 09/23/2013 - 08:37

Shadowstarkirby

Go With Blitz

From a gunslinger standpoint, Blitz is superior over Callahan in almost every situation, the few places I can think Callahan would be better is with Devilites and Greavers, but even that's a stretch. Become skilled enough with Blitz using proper positioning and timing to instantly massacre anything in it's range and you'll appreciate it more than Callahan's mediocre damage and crowd control. I've tried to like Callahan, switching it out with Blitz here and there, but in Elite mode things just don't die fast enough to warrant use over Blitz so I switch back after a depth.

When you have enough funds to have both, you'll notice that rooms of wolvers will clear much faster using a Blitz rather than spend 5 minutes doing a little dance with Callahan. If you want to stay safe instead of risking your life Vs. Devilites and Greavers, you could use alchemers as an alternative which I feel also surpass Callahan due to ricochets and easy kiting, or using the Flourish/Snarble Barb line if you're into swords.

Really hoping Callahan/Iron Slug is buffed one of these days, I want to love these guns.

Mon, 09/23/2013 - 09:11

Bopp

so many threads

Maybe this will help?

Google: Blitz Callahan site:forums.spiralknights.com

Mon, 09/23/2013 - 09:24

Battlegrinder

@Bopp

I saw those, or was at least generally aware of what the prevailing community opinion is. What I was wondering is which one is more effective when dealing with the difficulty jump from T2 to T3. I haven't been impressed with the needle shot, and I remember hoe much fun I had with the punch gun, so I was considering switching over to the magnus. At this point, I'm split between getting both and switching over to the callahan.

Mon, 09/23/2013 - 10:31

Demonicsothe

The only real problems you'll

The only real problems you'll have with the blitz is greavers and devilites in large numbers. And if in large numbers, Callahan has trouble with them all charging at you, especially greavers. For those situations, a Polaris is deceptively useful when you fan your shots in a wide spread. Greavers gap close fast, so set yourself up with time to create the gap.

Mon, 09/23/2013 - 10:40

Battlegrinder

@Demonicsothe

In that situation, I'll usually use a flourish or caliber charge to open up some space, or counter charge with a shield bash. I'll usually use a gun to get a few shots in as they charge or to engage monsters that are attacking someone else, or that are keeping their distance from me.
And which gun are you talking about, exactly. You talk about the blitz in youth first sentence, and the callahan in your second. Or are both guns ill suited to handle this situation?

Mon, 09/23/2013 - 10:44

Awoogawooga

If you're a sword hybrid,

If you're a sword hybrid, Blitz might be cramping your style. I assume you value mobility highly? A blitzer is going to be slow a lot of the time. You'll be more concerned with positioning and timing. You'll find yourself either baiting enemies into taking a face full of piercing damage or weakening hordes of enemies with a spread attack. But since you're a hybrid who mains a sword, perhaps Callahan would be more up your alley. Though bear in mind that Callahan won't be quite as effective once you reach FSC. My advice in such situations is to get Blitz so you'll have an easier time farming FSC, which will provide many Radiants + Eternal Orbs, thereby making graduating your 4* stuff to 5* easy as pie.

Mon, 09/23/2013 - 14:46

Voza-Il

Blitz for PvE Callahan for

Blitz for PvE
Callahan for PvP

Mon, 09/23/2013 - 16:35

Demonicsothe

I was comparing both guns

In the first sentence, I mentioned the situation where it is harder to use a blitz. Namely, the greaver and devilite situation. Beasts are notoriously derpy, so blitzing them is a perfectly fine faceroll. Against fiends who appear in low numbers, or situations where you can engage only a few at a time, the blitz is also good. However, in large hordes, it becomes dangerous.

The only reason, other than for fun, that you would use the callahan over blitz is the safety. High damage per shot, low fire rate, better movement compared to blitz. Applies status that allows you to kite easier. In essence, it gives you mobility. Against large crowds of devilites and enough space to kite backward, it is a safe pick. Greavers will bumrush you if they aggro, and a callahan will do worst than blitz in this situation. At least blitz can pour out damage in a terrible trade. A callahan-user who trades damage for damage with greavers will lose harder than a blitz.

I just gave it some more thought. Given a tight corridor where you can successfully funnel everything in a line, a blitz would work on greavers.

Wed, 09/25/2013 - 02:21

Onekone

Remember that Blitz's charge

Remember that Blitz's charge worth 15 Callahan shots, and to fire both Blitz and Magnus, you stop completely. Slap 2-3 ASI and you will fire your blitz bursts/charges fast enough to not be sitting duck for devilities

Wed, 09/25/2013 - 03:44

#10

Zeddy

Some maths

This is without taking defence into account.

Let's say Valiance does what we'll call 100% damage.
Valiance charge attack deals 170% damage.

Callahan does 115% damage.
Callahan's charge does 170% of Callahan's damage, or 195.5% damage.

Plague Needle does 100%/170% = 58.8% damage.

Blitz does 125% of Plague, which adds up to 73.5% damage per shot.
Blitz' charge does 170% the damage of Blitz' shots, or 125% damage per shot. In other words, each Blitz charged shot is actually stronger than a single Callahan shot.

Let's add up totals, shall we?

Valiance, full clip: 3 x 100% = 300% damage.
Valiance, charge: 1 x 170% damage.

Callahan, full clip: 2 x 115% = 230% damage.
Callahan, charge: 1 x 195% damage.

Blitz, full clip: 2 x 6 x 73.5% = 882% damage.
Blitz, full charge: 15 x 125% = 1875% damage.

Let's also account for enemy defence. A somewhat realistic example would be the enemy having 50% neutral defence and 25% weak defence.

Valiance, full clip: 3 x 100% - 3 x 50% = 150% damage.
Valiance, charge: 1 x 170% - 1 x 50% = 120% damage.

Callahan, full clip: 2 x 115% - (2 x 25% or 2 x 50%) = 180% or 130% damage.
Callahan, charge: 1 x 195% damage - (1 x 25% or 1 x 50%) = 170% or 145% damage.

Blitz, full clip: 2 x 6 x 73.5% - (12 x 25% or 12 x 50%) = 582% or 282% damage.
Blitz, full charge: 15 x 125% - (15 x 25% or 15 x 50%) = 1500% or 750% damage.

As you can see, Callahan does barely any more damage than Valiance at the cost of great amounts of safety, speed and range. Meanwhile, the tradeoff for Blitz gives a stupidly, ridiculously high payoff.

Wed, 09/25/2013 - 13:36

#11

Poopsie

finally, my chance to spam

because you doubt blitz
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Blitz_Needle_at_Clockworks -> disregard long texts, just watch the videos.
or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77qIlWtrN7U

this poop is still suck at dealing greaver with blitz though.

Wed, 09/25/2013 - 18:48

#12

Battlegrinder

Feedback

I just crafted a magnus.....and I'm liking it quite a lot. Not a fan of the charge attack, but I like the rest of it.

Thu, 09/26/2013 - 10:21

#13

Battlegrinder

@Zeddy

Wow, I didn't know the blitz was that powerful. However, since it has spread and the Callahan doesn't, wouldn't that have an effect on the final numbers? I've found that my Magnus hits its target much more reliably than the needle shot, at least when I'm shooting from outside of point-blank range (and speaking of which, how well does the blitz do when compared to the flourish at close range?).

Thu, 09/26/2013 - 10:42

#14

Zeddy

@Battlegrinder

Considering that each and every shot from the Blitz charge is more powerful than a single Callahan shot, you don't need to hit with that large a fraction out of the 15 bullets in the charge to compete. The spread also allows you to hit multiple enemies apart from eachother, surpressing all of them.

That being said, I am a fan of Calla when I'm up against devilites. The gun also has uses in areas where it's capable of juggling gremlins and interrupting turrets, which requires you don't travel on Elite in a full party.

I don't really know about flourishes. They're boring and I never use my thorn blade.

Thu, 09/26/2013 - 12:27

#15

Raunwynn

Callahan needs to allow

Callahan needs to allow movement like an alchemer.

Thu, 09/26/2013 - 12:54

#16

Battlegrinder

@Zeddy

I'll keep that in mind. I think I know why people say the blitz is OP.

Thu, 09/26/2013 - 15:55

#17

Ashen-Shugar

What I'd like to see is a

What I'd like to see is a piercing upgrade for the Antigua. Seriously, why isn't there one?

Thu, 09/26/2013 - 16:11

#18

Traevelliath

@Dok-Holliday: Probably because Antiguas used to do split-pierce damage

Thu, 09/26/2013 - 18:33

#19

Zeddy

@Dok-Holliday

Probably because antiguas are garbage against fiends and beasts.

Thu, 09/26/2013 - 20:10

#20

Battlegrinder

@Zeddy

I recall my Antigua being pretty good vs vulnerable monsters. Actually, it wasn't that bad against resistant ones either. The only issue with releasing one is that the Callahan is using all the Clinton Eastwood references, so coming up with new flavour text would be tough.

In all seerusness, I'd love a 4* and 5* Antigua. It's a fun gun, and a piercing gun that let's you move a fire would be really nice.

Fri, 09/27/2013 - 02:38

#21

Krakob

I'd like the split Antiguas simply because Umbra and Nova completely outclass Sentenza and AP.

Fri, 09/27/2013 - 09:45

#22

Exerpa

There is a missing piece of

There is a missing piece of the gun puzzle and it is a piercing gun.
It is the Piercing Blaster.

The 6-shooter gene pool has all 4 damage types, split between 2 sub-types: Antigua and Autogun.
The 2-shot pool also has all 4 types, again split between 2 sub-types: Alchemer and Magnus.
The 3-shot pool only has 3 damage types, split between 2 sub-types: Blaster and Pulsar/Catalyzer. On the plus side, each sub-type has a normal damage version which is not something seen for the other types.

I have been running with a full 3-shooter loadout on and off for a few days now, swapping out Polaris for Supernova and Biohazard for Neutralizer when it made sense to. While it is easy to get fixated on doing effective damage in every situation, in practice the Valiance can easily hold its own against the other 2 3-shot guns simply because you really can hit everything with it (Mechas, Gremlin). For all kinds of fiend, even dodgy devilites, its quite easy to at least land 2 out of 3 shots of the clip - I found it excels at sniping silkwings much more reliably than Callahan, possibly because the bullet might be smaller but more likely because the penalty for missing the first shot to be far less for obvious reasons. Against wolvers, its very easy to land most of the clip before and after they burrow, indeed its easy to land 4 or 5 shots when they jump out in front of you - even more if they get knocked down. It even might be feasible to consider the blaster to be a 'wolver vortex', in the sense that as long as your team comprehends it, you can become the magnet that they should unload their charge attacks at.

As for a pierce variant, what that would mean is you get a damage buff for Fiend and Beast in exchange for a huge nerf on Construct and Slime - consider that the nerfs for Polaris and Biohazard are much less: Supernova rips up aggressive Gremlins but not so much dodgy Wolvers; Neutralizer blows up Zombies but tagging fiends is far more time consuming. Notice that there seems to be a boat load of Tier 1 blaster style guns but only 1 where it matters int the later tiers. Its kind of insulting that the last gun to be added recently was yet another T1 3-shot gun that only exists to be part of a costume package for a business partner site - indeed this seems to be the new trend, functional costume equipment that does not serve any new purpose. Is it really too much to ask for new items to be introduced to fill genuine holes in the game play amongst the reskins every now and then?

Fri, 09/27/2013 - 10:06

#23

Battlegrinder

@Exerpa

It doesn't really make much sense to group weapons exclusively by clip size. After all, there's a huge mechanical difference between the blaster, Polaris, and neutralizer lines, beyond the damage type (its also worth pointing out that all the 3 shot guns have some kind of energy weapon mechanism, while all the piercing weapons use some kind of projectile).

New equipment would always be nice, but I must point out that OOO is first and foremost a business. If creating the ignition set will make them more money than a new 5* gun line, then that's what they'll focus on. I'd also remind you that a new expansion/mega patch/series of updates/whatever is in the pipe, and will likely have so new gear (and hopefully the 3rd Troika too).

Fri, 09/27/2013 - 10:33

#24

Zeddy

I, too, would like to see a piercing blaster.

Sat, 09/28/2013 - 02:02

#25

Geosmin

I imagine that a Pierce Blaster would make the Magnus line even more sad than it already is. :(

For specific purpose of helping a newbie to get used to T3, I think the Magnus path looks safer than Needler, but the Blaster or Pulsegun would be much better for that. Having the optimal damage type is not the most important aspect of a weapon, and both the Blaster and Pulsegun are top choices for offering the ease of finding safe opportunities to attack.

Before the difficulty mode selector was introduced, I was a huge fan of Blaster because it's really great for swatting monsters out of your face and the slightly low DPS was not a big deal. Now that I'm playing on Elite, the low damage is so noticeable that I no longer use Blaster there. If you'll be using one of the lower difficulty settings, Blaster might be the most solid all-around weapon that can see you through any mission and any gate.

The Pulseguns are popular, but among the more disliked weapon types because in a party, it's really easy to screw over the peops you're playing with if you don't know what you're doing. Oh, and the Pulsegun is one of this game's "Noob Toob" analogues, so expect verbal abuse if you take it into PvP with random strangers.

When the forecast calls for Fiends, I equip a Needler with an Alchemer. For whatever this is worth, the Alchemer is my preference for a defensive stance now, since I fail to feel a difference in terms of movement hindrance for a single attack from the Blaster, Jelly guns, Roarmulus guns, and Alchemers. I almost never find reason to go full-combo with guns, so Alchemers give me the most DPS in proportion to how much they slow me down. Common wisdom around here is that Jelly guns trade DPS for mobility, but after getting used to Alchemers my Jelly guns feels slow in addition to weak, because I need a much higher fire rate to achieve that subpar DPS, so I'm constantly slowed down. If I fire my Alchemer at fastest rate that lets me avoid going full-combo, I still output plentiful damage and am slowed down much less of the time than with a Jelly gun. Then there's the Alchemers' wonderful charge attack too, of course, which is handy for standoffish play. :D

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Blitz vs Callahan