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Why PVP fixes everything

17 replies [Last post]
Sat, 05/21/2011 - 23:11
siopao
Legacy Username

There has been a lot of ranting and raging about the recent changes and how they didn't fix old problems. The recent announcement of PVP finally coming back reminded me of a conversation I had with pinto the first week or two after official release. We basically agreed then that PVP fixes everything.

A short list of the problems plaguing Spiral Knights:
1. Not enough content
2. Item balance
3. Not enough materials sinks
4. Not enough crown sinks
5. People complaining how few things they can do with mist

A caveat, PVP only fixes things if its implemented properly. By this I mean it costs CROWNS not CE, and it is at least fun enough to get some if not most of the players to play (we concluded that team based and tactical PVP would put all the great aspects of SKs gameplay in the spotlight, but thats for another topic).

How PVP solves these problems:
1. This is the complaint that is at the forefront of the SK experience. We have a great game, but there isn't enough of it! How do you fix that without devoting endless man hours in the continual addition of content? Make repeatable (not REPETITIVE) content! PVP is its own organism. Competition in an environment that gives the player options (read: balanced and diverse) will always be organic and ever changing. Provided there isn't a single dominant build, there will be a flow in the metagame and constant investment must be made by players to adapt and thrive. AI is static and once beaten, beaten forever. But the intelligence of players is not the same. Battles dont always play out in the same way. This is practically the content Holy Grail. Content that reinvents itself with no additional investment, save for a few balance tweaks now and again.

2. I have to admit things like Leviathan > CIV wont be fixed by pvp, but at least most other concerns such as armor sets that weren't viable before (read: everything that isnt Vog) suddenly becomes MUCH more appealing to play with. For starters, the fact that players can make full use of EVERY damage type and MOST status effects and exploit every advantage that brings means that you would need to have a more balanced defense suite rather than just stacking fire resists and normal + elemental defense. If everyone went in with Vog gear, you will get owned by shivermist busters, venom veilers, flourishes, sentenzas, gran fausts, archerons the list goes on and on. A meta game will develop to counter new builds and counters to these counter builds. This would mean that most gear would have a use in some situation making things come closer to a balanced state than if PVP didnt exists. It also brings us to point 3, materials sinks.

3. Materials are overflowing and the implementation of AH (a more efficient free market) did not help to stem the oversupply. But given the assumption that point 2 (item balance) holds true, more materials will be consumed and this will help reinvigorate the materials market. This is because PVP will allow more gear to be end game viable. When before, you get a Vog set and the weapons of your choice with decent UVs you have been done with amassing gear (unless you are a completionist/collector or something) now youd want a back up set of gear for the situations in PVP where Vog set doesn't cut it. Provided that AT LEAST one other set of armor becomes PVP viable (say skolver gear for example), you have effectively DOUBLED the amount of materials needed to reach end game gear. If items are balanced to the point that you have a multitude of options, then consider the problem solved. It also sinks more CE (even with pre patch crafting energy costs) and makes OOO happy as well as games economy.

4. Lets face it. Stratum crafting, the original end game crownsink, is a failure (understatement of the year). Crowns keep getting infused into the system with every dungeon run. The energy market and AH sinks crowns but, by my estimation, it is not enough. Making PVP cost CROWNS means that you get a new sink. While it may not be as significant as say a fixed stratum crafting system, its yet another way to drain crowns from the game and can only help the economy.

5. Lastly, making PVP cost crowns (at least one of the modes maybe?) means that everyone has something to do after expending mist. You might say "well that doesn't make us any money!", but think for a second. An example, a new player finishes of the last of his mist on his first day of spiral knights. he wants MORE obviously, its a great game after all. He doesn't want to spend money just yet, hes only tried it for an hour, and his attention span is too short to wait another day for more gameplay and he turns to other distractions. He would have quit in the current system (like so many of the friends I've tried to invite have), but say instead he stumbles upon the hypothetical PVP arena. He sinks the few crowns he has amassed into the low tier arena and has a blast enjoying more content. He sells of materials to fund a few more rounds. afterwards, he is into the game hook, line and sinker. Congratulations! you've just made a new long term costumer! I have to say that person would have been me if my friends that are already geared didnt treat me to a free run of tier 2 (in proto gear!), that extra bit of content was all it took to turn the game from some thing cute but otherwise not worth my time, into an all consuming addiction.

Of course I have no qualms making SOME of the PVP content cost energy. but make it the more competitive modes that cost CE and the more casual ones cost crowns. Its the really competitive players that are willing and able to spend money to compete, and the more casual players that just want a few more things to do to pass the time.

-edit-

ADDENDUM: How to Maximize the Benefits.

The positive effects I stated above WILL be true with the implementation of ANY version of PVP no matter how good or bad. However, the better executed it is, the more significant the benefits. This is contingent on one condition; that the most number of players participate in PVP as is possible.

Here's why:
1. The more people play, the better the "hivemind" becomes, making for a much healthier metagame, prolonging the longevity of PVP without the infusion of new content (i.e. arsenal expansions, new PVP modes etc.).
2. The better the metagame, the more builds become viable. meaning item usefulness/balance trends closer together
3. More gear is viable, more gear is made.
4. The more people pay the entrance fee to play PVP, the more resource is sunk.
5. Having non energy content means fewer "mist whiners"

That was pretty obvious, but I felt it had to be stated for posterity. Now onto the meat and potatoes...

How to maximize participation:
1. Have something for everyone.
-and -
2. Keep PVP from stagnating.

These two thoughts are closely interrelated so i shall discuss them together.

We can learn alot from spaghetti sauce. It stands to reason that more game modes means more gaming niches are filled, meaning more player participation. Not every game mode is for everyone and it would be foolish to think otherwise. More players playing pvp means more resource is sunk (see 3 and 4).

The benefits of having several modes transcends this however.

On the content side, more modes means more different playstyles to be learned and mastered, effectively doubling or tripling content with the total developement input being comprised of a few modifications to the rules scripting and maybe some balance tweaks down the line.

More pertinent to item balance is the fact that different strategies need different gear. For example in CTF, area denial is important so bombers are going to be valuable, but for T/DM or FFA, you want to be killing as much as possible so the traditional sword/gun combo would probably be the best option.

So how do you most EFFICIENTLY implement this? To maximize the number of builds that can be incorporated into as few game modes as possible, you will want modes that are objective driven to force players into using strategy rather than pure brute force. Also, team based modes will allow players more freedom in going for niche builds since a player's weaknesses can be effectively covered by another's strengths. Having different builds means a healthier metagame that keeps the gameplay interesting for longer. On suggestions for how you can implement casual and competitive game modes that keep with these principles, I shall leave for other people and other threads).

BUT at the core of all of this is BALANCE. I have to stress that there are many more different factors that contribute to "balance" aside from just item balance (i.e. rules, stage layout etc). All the most long lived games are such because at thier core, they are balanced (a prime example being DotA). Adding a competitive component will tend to shift things closer to a balanced state by bringing to light the usefulness of gear in specific situations and how these allow players to explore different builds and strategies. I am under no delusions that ALL gear will be on equal footing. Hence the importance of the devs steping in and actually start doing something about how the game is balanced. It doesn't have to be done all at once, it could be staggered throughout several patches BUT it has to be done (again, see DotA as an example). Although I'm pretty sure the competitive element PVP brings will make the dev team more amiable towards finally getting around to doing this.

Summary of Main Post
1. PVP = endless/self-sustaining content.
2. Items useless in PVE are actually useful in PVP.
3. Making more items useful (see #2) means more items are made, sinking materials
4. A crown entry fee is a crown sink (minimal, but still there).
5. The addition of non-energy content (see #4) means fewer "mist whiners".

Summary of Addendum
1. More participation = more impact
2. More game modes = more participation
3. The most efficient way (i.e. least dev time consumed) to maximize benefits is through team-based, tactical, objective driven game modes.

(wall of text i know, and most people dont like to read, let alone think. for that, i am sorry. but i really think this is something people, especially the devs, should hear if they havent thought of it already. so to that end, i think its worth it. If youve read all the way here, I thank you for giving my thoughts some time and welcome your comments below.)

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 00:31
#1
Choobski
Legacy Username
Yup

Do want.

Does Eurydice have any comments? At this point we know PvP is coming, Nick said as much. I'm curious to know from a OOO insider if this logic is as sound as we feel it is. Maybe we could get a little insight into the design so far?

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 00:39
#2
Tive's picture
Tive
1. better pvp games out

1. better pvp games out there
2. not gonna waste money on something where damage should be normalized anyway
3. I hope it helps my mat sales
4. Probably not bad. Just lower/cap (5-10k) the AH fees a bit~ (recipe costs are rather effective as a crown sink now already)
5. Doubtful. Whiners gonna whine. (remember the thread by someone who couldnt find the enegy depot?)

why not just say: PVP has a chance to improve the game slightly for some, a lot for others~

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 00:41
#3
Raul
PVP here

PVP here http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/9051#comment-49533

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 00:45
#4
Shisho's picture
Shisho
.

Yeah, good points, though I'm not up to the point where I'm overflowing with crowns. Don't have that problem yet! ^_^

But I can believe it. It's an easy problem to create with magical currency that spawns out of thin air, and has to be destroyed via NPC.

I also think there should be some costs as well as rewards to PvP systems. (Arena or Stage combat) Though I also think there should be a sort of tiered structure to it. So that there is a free skirmish option, or something that cost very little to enter. If it costs too much or people have to grind PvE too much to just do some PvP it's going to turn off a lot of players. So maybe different settings, each with different costs and risks/rewards. The difference could be rated and non-rated match ups, or even occasional tournaments. Having rated matches you could even make the costs be inflicted as a part of losing. You wager something to compete.

So if you find that rated games aren't your thing, or you can't afford them, you can always have the fun and free skirmish options.

And possibly and option that goes inbetween these two. If you made the free skirmishes have less content, you could encourage people to play in a middle bracket of some sort for more content and some risk/reward involved.

I'm curious how they'll balance the PvP stuff.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 02:22
#5
Dasparian
RE: PvP balance.

Somehow I don't think that PvP will suddenly bring about item balance.

Using any heavy sword without Vog set is asking to have a slower response time. Faster weapons with multiple strikes are pointless with the 0.5 second immunity to damage knights inherently get.

Guns must break shields first, before doing less damage. During this time, you're vulnerable to attacks from other people.

Bombs are a choice between inflicting a status effect or doing pure damage. You can ignore a bomber so long as you don't get cornered, just by staying outside of the blast radius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2_wtqnRR8k
Note the boring proliferation of Gran Faust, Vog, and Sentenza. Divine Avenger users dying notably faster than these cookie-cutter builds. No bombs whatsoever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oshDDZWevi4
Here's another style of gameplay - note that very little changes. See how the Winmillion, Dread Venom Striker, and Ionized Rock Salt bomb users are dying horribly?

I'd hope for balance before they establish PvP. If it's implemented next month without any changes to items, then I can predict that we will see more of the above. Better start crafting those shadow weapons.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 10:47
#6
siopao
Legacy Username
@ TiV first, forgive me for

@ TiV
first, forgive me for my use of hyperbole. seemed justified tho IMO.

Now to categorically address your points:
1. i agree that there are better pvp games, but new content is new content. I doubt you wont play pvp once its in the game if you are already playing the game (exception being if you are vehemently opposed to pvp or something of the sort).

2. i did say things like levi > CIV is still gonna be an issue, but its a start. also, for the record, i am FOR the nerfing of heavy swords. playing with em makes the game feel like easy mode.

3-4. more sinks are more sinks. having one that has a small effect is better than having non at all.

5. i did say fewer, not comepletely eliminate. semantics i know but there WILL be an effect. and im pretty sure its gonna be significant.

@skype
the thread wasnt me suggesting PVP, its me trying to bring to the devs attention that something simple like PVP could help solve the problems they see in the current incarnation of the game in an attempt to dissuade them from performing anymore sweeping and hastily implemented changes to avert another disaster.

basically me saying there are other solutions to your problems.

@ Dasparian
again forgive the hyperbole, but i did include a caveat. As stated, i thought team based, tactical, objective driven PVP was going to be the best possible scenario. What did go unstated however was that with the advent of PVP, i anticipate more dev involvement in balancing what becomes obviously imbalanced.

I did anticipate these comments and will attempt to tackle everything in the Addendum (see original post).

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 13:15
#7
Elegies
Legacy Username
I don't really care for

I don't really care for team-based, objective-driven PVP. It all ends up being the same variations of capture the flag, king of the hill, etc, which countless other games have already done, balanced, etc.

Your general argument is that PVP content will fix all those issues.

My counter-argument is that more PVE content, weapons/armor, deeper depths, quests/achievements/etc, would accomplish the same thing.

I'm not opposed to having PVP included in the game, but I think it should take a backseat to the PVE content.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 13:44
#8
Tive's picture
Tive
Hmm looking at these videos,

Hmm looking at these videos, I wont be playing much pvp. Not gonna buy GF or Sentenza. Or shadow resist armor.

Only way I'd play that is if they normalise defense. (as in, all damage and defence is turned to normal for pvp)

edit: also someone said it's not reasonably playable at 250ms ping? guess I can forget that then, unless eu hosted servers are added. (but the game isnt even advertised in the eu)

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 14:00
#9
nearo
Legacy Username
-applauds-

Lots of reasons.

..And well, Beta PVP did cost crowns.(it was like 100-500? if it was higher then that screw PVP too) if it doesn't after this, strike time.
and it was fun, though I didn't do a ton of it.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 21:09
#10
siopao
Legacy Username
@elegies - while you say PVP

@elegies -
while you say PVP is derivative, but more content is more content. i doubt you WONT be at least trying it once PVP comes out (provided it is reasonably executed and barring any extreme special circumstances). as i said, this is not a suggestion thread. let those more creative than me be the ones to suggest what would be the best modes for SK pvp.

its true that more/better PVE will do the same thing. what im saying is that PVP will do it for less dev time, and will last the players much longer (unless they pull another stunt like failpatch to artificially prolong progression).

@TiVV
yeah im pretty sure they are gonna implement a damage cap of some sort in the next release of PVP. but i have to disagree that normalising damage is the way to go. it takes away too much metagame strategy.

lag is an issue, but ive played FPSes fine on more latency, at least in a casual sense (MF2 on public hardcore servers. non of that clan stuff). if it were all competitive, lag would be much more of an issue, but seeing that the nature of the game is more casual i think people will be more forgiving of latency issues in PVP.

@nearo
yeah i hope they have the sense to make it cost crowns rather than energy...

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 21:49
#11
drmchsr0
Legacy Username
Perhaps we're going about the

Perhaps we're going about the whole PvP thing all wrong.

Instead of smacking knights around, why not PvP be... ... ...

SNIPE HERDING.

PvP SNIPE HERDING will accomplish all your stated objectives, plus everyone here that hasn't ragequitted loves the adorable birds.

Think about it. Clan versus Clan SNIPE HERDING... ... ... WITH THE JELLY KING INVOLVED. Or better, LORD VANADUKE.

It is so extreme people will drop lots of crowns for it.

Yes, SNIPE HERDING will solve all your PvP needs. (All damage and defense will be normalized, of course. And the knights are not supposed to hit the snipes with their weapons.)

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 21:55
#12
Madadder's picture
Madadder
once pvp is released nothing

once pvp is released nothing will change. people will try it at first, but without any depth or significant reward it will fade into obscurity

this hype over pvp will only be dashed with more rants about how OOO screwed things up

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 22:14
#13
siopao
Legacy Username
monkeyman-i beg to differ, i

monkeyman-
i beg to differ, i dont think the gameplay in SK is shallow at all. you confuse simplicity, or its inverse complexity, with depth. granted, OOO can still screw it up majorly but i think theyd have more sense now than to rush into it willy nilly like they did last patch.

as for significant reward, for me competition is reward in itself. i dont play soul calibur (my fav fighting game) because theres a sense of progression or achievement, i play it cause kicking my friends' [buttocks] (and having my own [buttocks] kicked to some extent. read: challenge) is a tonofun.

drm-
yes we DEFINITELY need snipe herding :D

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 22:11
#14
Lokr
Nice distraction from the

Nice distraction from the real problem which has yet to be addressed.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 22:16
#15
siopao
Legacy Username
by real problem you mean item

by real problem you mean item binding and crafting hike? to be fair those were supposed to be SOLUTIONS. ikr...

and we are back to why i posted this thread.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 22:31
#16
Lokr
Yes, item binding and

Yes, item binding and crafting hike. It reduced the variety in this game while still making it harder for everyone. I still feel it was badly implemented and needs a fix. Nick only kind of addressed the binding issue, which I thought was a BS cop-out and not the crafting hike.

As for the topic I agree with TiV on most of it. Also I do think any content be it PVP or whatever is better then none. This game desperately needs new content and I don't mean early T1 crap either...Unless they put in a zone in T1 that requires certain star gear with raised difficulty to do (for improved challenge and reward?). Yea, I'm straying off topic.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 02:03
#17
siopao
Legacy Username
sounds defeatist to me. at

sounds defeatist to me. at any rate, im pretty sure ill be squaring off with you in the arenas once it comes online. looking forward to it actually.

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