I totally stood at the elevator and afk, my teammates kept running ahead and get themselves killed! If they were all smart like me and stood at the elevator, none of this would happen! I keep having to tab back in to revive my dead teammates. My plan was to just stand there until the quicksilvers kill everything for me. It might take awhile but it's a very safe and effective plan!

That's not even close to being true. According to your "unarguably doing the best" if I take 3 damage but kill every monster, I am worse than the aforementioned afker at the elevator. While I agree knowing how to play proper defense is important, if it takes you 2 hours to go through a tier you are not playing as well as someone who gets damaged a bit, and goes through in half the time. Pure gunslinging isn't playing for your team, and it doesn't help anyone but yourself. Arguments like "I use the hail driver, so when I freeze enemies my teammates love it" is rubbish. 1 Shivermist at the start of the wave just did more than you will do in the entire fight.

There are times when guns are great. Kiting in certain situations like parts of danger rooms and arenas can be an excellent way to avoid unnecessary damage. Those times are few and far between, and often sword kiting is just as safe but much more effective.

The important thing this oppressed minority of gunslingers needs to realize is: you made the conscious decision to play with a less effective type of weapon, which directly impacts anyone you play with. Do not be surprised when such an attitude makes some of the people you encounter resent you...

When you kill every monster 5 seconds slower than a sword user, and lack aoe damage, you slow the team down immensely...

I pug quite often, 99% of the time with sword users, and I've yet to receive any complaints whatsoever so I'm not sure where this thread is going anymore other than trollbait. This coming from someone who uses nothing but antiguas (though I do carry a DVS, for JK really). I don't really have any issues with what weapon someone chooses, though I do wish I could play with more gunners.

"You were around to revive them because you were making them get hit."

Oh that's right, I was making them suck. My bad.
Why don't you just hop on my back and I'll carry your sorry #$@ to the core.

OKAY, SHUT UP ALREADY. STOP GOING ALL "BLARG BLARG GUNS R VASTLY INFERIOR BLARG BLARG" I HAVE HAD IT. WHY YOU PEOPLE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH OUR PLAYSTYLES? IT'S NOT YOUR CHOICE ON HOW I PLAY, ITS MINE! STOP PRESSURING US ON HOW TO PLAY THE GAME, WE PLAY IT HOWEVER WE WANT! GUNSLINGERS ARE NOT DEAD WEIGHT, THEY ARE EXCELLENT TEAMMATES IF YOU CAN JUST GET THROUGH YOUR JUDGEMENTALISM! JEEZ! NONE OF MY TEAMMATES HAS EVER COMPLAINED ABOUT ME USING MY BLASTER MOST OF THE TIME! THIS THREAD WAS FOR GUNSLINGERS. AND SUDDENLY YOU PEOPLE BARGED IN SCREAMING "ALL YOU GUNSLINGERS ARE THE STUPIDEST PEOPLE TO EVER EXIST" AND THEN SUDDENLY YET ANOTHER DAY ERUPTS INTO A FLAME WAR! GO START YOUR OWN SWORDSMAN OR BOMBER THREAD SO WE CAN CONVERSE WITH EACH OTHER IN PEACE! JUST GO AWAY ALREADY, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH US?

I don't even know why I'm trying in this obvious circlejerk of a thread.

@actinium if you are going to claim sword knockback is detrimental to teammates, then so is making wolvers/gremlins dodge, and roboknights shield. Let's call it a wash.

@Ozymandias: When you multiply the 5 seconds longer (which is being generous) to a kill times every single mob in say your average JK run (just 13-16, maybe 17 if people feel like carrying you), we are talking easily an added 15 minutes if you are being a gunner over a sword user. Even if you are only 1 gunner in a group of 4 sword users, when you add in the added hp that sword users have to hack through we can easily assume you are going to add about 10 minutes through an entire tier. Which might not seem like a lot, but if you get caught in a run and someone goes afk 10 minutes, I'm going to think you will be a little annoyed. I don't think anything I'm claiming is at all being unreasonable, although I really like the maturity of your post

@pkninja: Perhaps "making" wasn't the best word to choose. Let me put it this way. If they had a teammate with a sword who would divide the tanking and kill things faster, think about it, they would most likely take less damage. The more enemies you take out the fastest, the less mouths/axes/slimey appendages to hit you as the fight goes on. As Actinium put it: Swords reduce risk by killing the mob faster leaving less chances to make a mistake and get hit. Again, thanks for assuming sword users are somehow inferior because they sometimes take more damage than you. Keep sitting in the back, contributing little, then coming to the forums to make posts like this.

If anything, this thread got derailed because gun users started making stupidly defensive statements. It started out with a guy talking about how guns allow him to solo entire t1 runs, and how much easier and more fun that is to him than swords, especially when talking about danger rooms and arenas. Even the so-called "trolls" made a very valid point when people started bringing up their oppressed minority garbage. Guns are not good for your party. You just can't argue that they are. The best gunslinger in the game is not going to be as useful on a given run as the best sword user.

Its your playstyle. That's great. Nobody is crapping on your decision when it is just that: YOUR playstyle. But when you join a run with 3 other people it ceases to be about you. Go ahead and take a leaf out of the OPs book, and by all means solo with your guns. But don't be shocked or outraged when people are begrudging because you made the choice to be less effective for personal preference. That's like if I decided to only use flourish line on a Jelly Run because I like the way the attack looks, despite the fact that I have much more effective weapons in my arsenal. If someone on the run with me complains about me they are perfectly justified in doing so. If I want to solo JK with the flourish, then sure, nobody has the right to criticize me.

"stupidly defensive statements"
and you are making stupidly offensive statements. my insults to you.
trollfaic.jpg

The 'problem' with gunslingers isn't their weapon, it's their gear. Their current layout of equipment barely adds anything to their main strengths: Strafing and Kiting. While increased attack speed or damage is nice, in the end it doesn't really matter that much, because the only thing a gunslinger needs in their ideal situation is 'time'. That's the whole point. You run around, don't get hit, and pick off critters one by one. Or, as a team, collectively lead slow enemies around by the nose. It doesn't matter how much time it takes, so long as it's done with no damage taken. So the kind of things that would actually help in these situations would be more along the lines of increased movement speed, or some kind of evasion/defensive mechanic. I'd still like a overall damage boost to guns, if only so I don't feel as bad when the swordsmen slaughter everything in the room, then still manage to finish off the one guy I was working on.

I dunno what was so flipping amazing about gunners that they had to knock their damage to half a swordie's, less if you count a sword's tendency to hit more than one target far more often, when the gunner already has to deal with low clip size, enemy dodge mechanic, no or crappy resists on their armor, and reload times that prevent shield use. This not including the guns that force us to stand still.

As it stands guns really are only for utility. It sucks to say it, because they really should be a reasonably viable class. But let's face it. If you go sword and gun, the Vog Cub Coat will help your sword more than the Nameless Poncho will help your gun. If you go Gun and Bomb, the Demo suits will help you more than the Ponchos will. And in the end, you'll still be just about as good at kiting as a full gunslinger.

And yes, gunner bombers are practically immortal, balking only at bosses, the occasional griever swarm, and everyone's favorite horror, the t3 Quicksilver.

@Ozymandius: Going through a level as fast as possible is of course my goal... If I have 2 hours to play this game and I can fit three runs in instead of 2 then yes, it makes a massive difference to me and it does mean MORE crowns and heat. If I have to drag along a gunslinger I am indeed losing out on things like tokens and crowns.

As for the argument about knockback from other sword users slowing me down, I don't buy that for a minute. I've run dozens of JK runs in the last week, all with complete randoms, and I haven't felt someone was stepping on my ability to hit mobs. In arenas, its basically common sense that people split when they stand on the party button. I HAVE missed damaging PLENTY of knights, wolvers, and gremlins due to gunfire making them dodge and shield. As I said before, even if you want to claim I'm just being harsh on gun users, at best its a wash when considering who makes me hit things less...

Any situation you are describing when guns are useful is achievable by slapping a gun on a sword user. You aren't making the case that a dedicated gun user is a viable option over a predominately sword using character. Kiting Vanaduke requires an argent peacemaker on a sword using character, not a dedicated gunslinger. A dedicated gunner takes out a jelly with an umbra driver in the same time I can take out 4 with my gran faust or acheron.

I think we are both making assumptions about what type of gunslinger/sword user we are talking about in our posts. You are evidently a good gunner, and I'm a good sword user. You are assuming that the gunslingers most people are encountering are carrying multiple 5* guns so that they can be effective in any situation. Most aren't. Most carry a blaster and sit in the back to avoid taking damage while the rest are forced to tank. This is why you get the negative backlash...

I lol'd.

@Fauxanadu

I'm not shore that's true about the Jellies. The ricochets of higher level Alchemers are pretty devastating. In a competition of killing 4 Jellies first, I would expect the Swordsmen to kill the first and second jelly before the Gunslinger had killed any, but that's because the damage the Gunslinger is dealing will be every spread. All four of the Gunslinger's Jellies will die about the same time, and I bet it'd be comparable to when the 4th Swordsmen's Jelly died.

Also, I completely get why people hate Gunslingers- because you're right. It's harder to become an effective Gunslinger, not because it's a harder style of play (it isn't, it's just different) but because it requires more of a dedication in gear to be effective. At the start of the game, just about every player tries out his sword, and his gun, and quickly sees how much better the sword is at killing things. So they give up on the guns, and just stick with swords. This is because until you get to about 4* gear, guns aren't very good. They're very much like bombs in that regard. Low level Alchemers fire slowly, don't ricochet, and have less range. Autoguns are tough to use without speed boosts you get from other Gunslinger gear. Yet Swords at any star level just work- and if that wasn't enough to deter most players from seeing that Guns can be effective, you also get threads like this which also discourage people from using them. *Shrugs* This is why I keep posting. Playing a Gunslinger is viable, and is useful in parties.

@lawlz

Why? You don't having any issue with a player standing toe to toe with the Jelly King, sword in hand. Now, just replace the sword with a Fiery Pepperbox. It's the same thing.

I like this guy. i may only have a vile striker and faust, btu tats because im onyl do the rj. and i keep a sunset stretson about. why? because im gettig nready to bring out the guns.

I'm mainly a gunner pure, with exceptions.

If you can't solo Royal Jelly with -insert weapon style here-, you should use -insert most effective weapon style for the person here-.

Granted, I'm not good enough to pure gun the RJ yet, I require a Toxic Atomizer/Umbra Driver to solo it (and I haven't found the time to level my Atomizer to a Veiler yet).

Maybe someday, they'll release a gun that can poison, then gun pure will be a more used option for RJ.

People who don't have the diligence or competence to use guns to their full advantage should stick with using some other weapon type. Guns are for people who are willing to take the time to win.

Until I become better with guns, I'll be keeping that Atomizer for Royal Jelly runs.

If you want to play pure-gun, you just need to be able to find a way to make your gunmanship on par with swords (______ Driver's ability to hit the same enemy multiple times with one charge fire with AoE) or find a way to support your team by giving them more chances to damage while protecting them (Hail Driver/Storm Driver to freeze/shock on a medium scale while dealing damage).

On a side note, I kick anyone who brings the Prismatech Line.

Go get a brain troll.

There is no doubt that gunslingers absolutely shine when soloing, but they have their uses in a team too. Too many people have the idea that guns are weak and therefore insignificant when it comes to dealing damage. This is what I have to say about it: It's not all about dealing damage. You want to survive too (I mean everyone in the team, not just gunslingers).

In my experience, the best use of a gunslinger is drawing as much aggro as possible then kiting enemies whilst letting the sword swingers lay into them from behind or the sides, or taking down stragglers one at a time. This essentially means that a gunslinger would have to be first to charge into the fray and be the first one out. This tactic works a real treat when it comes to keeping the team alive, however, it tends to only work when the team mates are co-operating and there has only ever been one random I've played with who did (he is now in my guild).

Another good tactic is controlling the movements of enemies that can dodge and corner them, though it requires a great amount of skill. Get it right however and you can make sure that they die fast. Corner your enemies then they are practically already dead.

Killing turrets. Might take longer but there's more chance of success with less chance of dying.

Alchemers. Bombs are handy but sometimes you want to get at specific targets. Alchemers let you do that obviously.

Sniping healers. Enough said.

Reviving team mates. Enough said.

The big ones (Trojans, Golems, Giant Lichens, mobs). Sword swingers are most likely to die from them. They'd also be shielded most of the time too. Gunners would ALWAYS be able to deal damage. Sometimes, you just need guns (but never count out bombs too).

Finally, it's nonsensical for sword swingers and gunslingers to compete with each other at all. Swords deal a lot of damage to any enemy within reach. Guns can get at enemies that are out of reach. What's the problem?

Best group I've been in so far was 2 bombers and 2 swordsmen, myself among the sword users. 1 bomber was using the freeze bomb while the other used the fire one, the other sword player used divine avenger and I used a CTR high leviathan. Everything died so fast, it made arenas trivial.

Remember that a gun puppy can't turn while frozen... getting behind them was a breeze. All our charge attacks hit 3 times on the stationary targets.

My opinion has always been that swords with knockback are superior, but bombs can provide decent utility. Guns are just annoying most of the time except as tools to hit switches or pick apart a group of 8 lumbering constructs.

Skill is always the deciding factor that determines what weapon someone prefers, its just the duality in the nature of swords that most noobs use them and that most pros return to them.

Gunners are the tanks of the game. The problem with most swordsmen is they think that we should be fighting their mobs. When in reality what we do is kite a bunch of mobs so you don't have to deal with the whole group.

Also a good swordsman will chase behind the mobs and peel them off and kill them while the gunner kites them. Too often do I see swordsmen wade into the fray without any thought for the fact that its not just going to dissolve into piles of loot. Gunners are also very good at killing those healers in the middle of the group or in the case of the gremlin healers make them keep dodging so they can't heal.

To say that gunners are outclassed by swords and bombs is being short sighted. Does it take me longer to kill things? Sure, but I prefer safety over speed.

Even before I switched to the Winmillion, I felt too many swordsman in a party just ended up making an unholy mess. It's harder to keep track of everything, and people are scrambling to stay in reach of their target. It's a very high risk party because of it. An all sword party has to be very organized not to step on the toes of eachother.

One reason I like the Winmillion is because I can ignore this issue to a point. I specialize in peeling things away. From clumped enemies or from fellow players so they can fight safely. It allows me to play with a sword without contributing to the chaos.

But on to my point. I think the ideal party would consist of:

Two swordsman
One gunner
One bomber

The swordsman doing their sword thing. Two creates a good balance of single target focus without getting in eachother's way overly much. From there the bomber is creating vast amounts of AOE damage as well as laying down status bombs when appropriate. He softens up large groups as well as creates crowd control to make it easier for the damage dealers to do their thing. From there the gunner adds yet MORE damage without stepping on the toes of the other three(and not hogging the precious health capsules since they aren't getting hurt). If I were a gunner, I'd probably keep a bomb as my third slot. Something status related. Maybe poison so I don't have to worry about peeling healers out of a crowd. Just something to give my arsenal utility. Poison for sure for JK runs.

I gotta say, the idea of the gunner playing revive bot is an interesting one. I hadn't considered that myself.

I think the real issue here is just the idea of a PURE gunner. A guy that has nothing but guns. The idea of any "pure" character seems like a bad one. A guy that has nothing but swords will have issues. A bomber that keeps two bombs and a gun as a sidearm will have a much easier time in general. A gunner that can lay a status bomb in the way of the things chasing him just seems like good sense.

Many times I'll fall back on my blaster anyway, even though I'm a swordsman loadout. Simply because too many swordsman in a small space is bad. There are also times when we get a room of enemies that are tearing up me in particular. So I'll conserve my health and play fire support.

Not adding to the general chaos tends to help a lot. If the gunner sets didn't look goofy as hell, I might consider them.

I am the average player: meaning I don't specialize in anything until I find reason to. As it is, I primarily use swords, but my trusty sidearm is there for the casual shot to remove explosive boxes and as a support weapon in the event I need to flee. As a matter of fact, I only had 2 bars (as did my only surviving partner) started fleeing from jelly swarms and used guns in order to win and revive my teammates. That just proves that EVERY weapon, EVERY gear set, EVERY playstyle has its perks. So, stop trolling, flaming, etc and just enjoy the game.

*twirls his handgun and casually shoots an explosive block as he walks by and continues his delve*

I agree that guns are a bit weaker than they should be (reload function is meaningless...) but I think it's funny that sword-users are coming on here and trolling gun-users, in my past few parties, I've been the one to keep everyone else alive because the sword-users were terrible at staying alive. Say what you want, but I like guns and I think I contribute a lot with them... though I'd contribute more if freeze didn't break in a single hit.