Spiral Knights - To Remove The Negative Connotations Surrounding LD: Ideas and Methods for Improvement...

To Remove The Negative Connotations Surrounding LD: Ideas and Methods for Improvement...

37 replies [Last post]

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:46

Knightofheaven

Hello everyone,

Lockdown is a game with great potential. It has the potential to be fun, intuitive, teamwork-ful, and catering to a variety of playing styles and strategies. However, it is also one of the most overlooked aspects of being a Spiral Knights player.

Let us investigate the main surface aspects of why there are exist (undeniably) many negative connotations surrounding Lockdown and its community.

Skill-"Enhancers" which can be further split into two categories:

Auto Target [AT]
and (more debatably) Unique Variants [UVs]

Note: I will not include trinkets here. They can be compared to Unique Variants but are much more accessible. If one is going to play this game, it only makes sense to do some PvE as well. A small amount of playing time in PvE per month can more than compensate for the cost of buying and maintaining trinkets. (3 FSC runs, for example, can yield over 300 energy. This is enough for 2 trinket passes, and you're good for the next month.)

Chat in-game:

Spamming chat
Profanity, rudeness, and general rage

Lack of Synergy/Teamwork

Going "afk" [away from keyboard] and/or leaving the game
Playing in ways that does not help the team (i.e. going soley for damage and ignoring everything else, not bothering to consider the capture points on the map, and/or being uncoordinated with one's teammates)

Getting killed very quickly, resulting in frustration; can be due to either:

Imbalance of skill throughout games
or "Cheap/Imbalanced playing styles"

FPS lag [Low frames per second]
High Latency/Ping [Time it takes for an action to travel from your computer to the server and back] & Jittery Latency/Ping [Latency which keeps changing, making compensating very difficult]

Cost

(200 cr per game)

Now, let's move on to understanding why these aspects negatively affect Lockdown and how these can be fixed by either attention from OOO and official updates, or behavioral changes from the community.

Skill-"Enhancers"

Auto Target

I will not get into this debate, but will merely suggest an option in the Coliseum sign-up window for two separate types of Lockdown. One type will be identical to Lockdown right now, and will read on the button: "[blahblah random lockdown waiting blah]... Original." The other button will read: "[blahhblah random lockdown waiting blah]... Auto Target Disabled." In the second option, people will be unable to change their Auto-Target settings, and the button bound to toggling Auto Target manually will not function; this will be in effect for all persons in the game with auto target disabled. With this system, people will be able to either enjoy lockdown without "aimbot" and "fake skill" or choose to go with a more original type of lockdown and practice against people with crazy swings.

Concerns with this proposed system: "There aren't many people playing Lockdown in the first place, especially in EU and in T2." The dual-option system will only go into effect if there are 6 or more people waiting and playing (combined) for both original lockdown and AT disabled lockdown (The exact number can be up for debate, of course). Every 5 minutes there will be a scan to see if there are less than 6 people waiting/playing for either type of lockdown. If so, all players signed up for both non-AT and original lockdown will converge to original lockdown, and the people signed up for non-AT lockdown will receive a notification saying there were not enough players and they have been placed in original lockdown. In other words, if there are 8 people playing normal lockdown and 3 waiting, but only 5 waiting for the non-AT lockdown, waiting will go as normal, except when the system scans to check the number of people waiting in each category. Then, the 3 and 5 waiting for different types of lockdown will both go to original lockdown where AT is optional for everyone.
Note: in the spectating menu it will say next to the location of the match whether the game is non AT or original.
This may sound complex, but I believe it is worth the complexity to try and rid of unhappiness and complaints on the forums and in-game, making for a much more enjoyable experience.

Unique Variants

I believe that unique variants are meant to be “unique” and give players a slight edge. Although it can be debated that with the current system, people who are rich or P2W [pay to win] have an edge over those who do not want to spend hours grinding PvE or spend real money on this game, this is how it is with most free online games and is a necessary component of Spiral Knights. If a player is really dedicated and want to become one of the best, he/she may decide to spend real money on this game and/or grind for in-game crowns. This is functional, logical, understandable, and helps OOO pay its bills. Furthermore, removing the functionality of UVs in lockdown will discourage many people from rolling UVs and get rid of a goal for many people.

Chat in-game

For individual, persistent spammers of chat and perhaps petty arguments in-game, OOO does have a decent /ignore system implemented which people can use. However, there are problems with this, including missing anything productive that individual might have to say, as well as only being able to ignore one person at a time. Therefore, I will suggest two features to be added to the SK chat menu.

People will be able to hide the chat menu from view entirely. When this is in effect, only a small arrow will be existent near the bottom left of the screen to expand the chat window.
People will be able to choose to view certain types of chat, when teamwork is important and people are saying productive things. There might be commands like /hide party chat or /hide guild chat, or there could also be buttons on the side of the chat menu choosing things like "guild chat" or "team chat" or "party chat or "all". Note that this could also be beneficial to PvE and standing around in haven.

Lack of Synergy/Teamwork

Note that this largely arises because of a lack of incentive and desire to win.

A new ranking system would help. (Busy right now, will add more later. In the meantime, please place productive suggestions below.)
Note that the new ranking system could help deal with "leavers" as well. When people have an incentive not to lose, they will make sure that, at least, small things don't get in the way.

Getting killed very quickly

This results in a large portion of the frustration surrounding LD. Unfortunately, no updates can change this besides small balancing updates to weapons and gear (ahem, acheron). Part of the beauty of Spiral Knights lockdown is the variety of potential playing styles it can cater to, and being able to adapt to all these playing styles is simply part of the game.

Note: I would suggest games based on rank (and so somewhat balancing skill level) but there simply aren't enough players to implement this just yet. This is better saved for a later date if over 200 (for example) players play LD at the same time.

This is largely an individual problem for some people and not an issue for the community as a whole, except when SK servers act up. I'll ignore server lag for now, because I'm sure OOO is aware of it. Even though this is an individual problem, I won't leave those of you out there in the dark.

FPS lag is often caused by an inadequate video card or cpu (usually, it's the video card). Also, if you have 4 gb of ram or more, try switching to 64 bit java. There are many tutorials out there and a couple on the SK forums, if you do some digging. [ http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/62691 ]
High latency/ping: Unfortunately, players with high ping are usually stuck with it due to distance from OOO's servers. One can try using ethernet and wires etc. around the house so that ping is minimized within a local network, but other than that, try moving to Virginia.

Why Three Rings Should Care.
I agree with the fact that OOO doesn't seem to care enough to update lockdown. I think almost everyone agrees on that fact. But let's give them a reason to care.

Extremely important for an MMO like this is not just to be able to attract new players, but to retain an old playerbase. But with the lack of updates targeted to the regular/veteran playerbase like balancing and LOCKDOWN, many of those veteran players have been slowly trickling out and/or playing the game much less. In other words, lockdown is the ultimate end-game for many people and quitting lockdown is often akin to quitting Spiral Knights.
Also, lockdown is a game played by relatively few, but it affects many. Although there is only a select playerbase really "into" lockdown, those who do not often avoid it because of the toxic environment that permeates through many of its games. Something like a chat filter and, even better, a two-type-of-lockdown system would greatly alleviate the number of arguments in lockdown. This would not only be beneficial to all lockdown players, but also anyone considering the coliseum and those avoiding lockdown because of its toxic environment.

TLDR: To Three Rings: lockdown isn't a very popular game right now, but a few minor updates could help make it one. Increasing the popularity of lockdown will help retain veteran players, some of which are likely to spend real money on the game for unique variants, etc. (which are most important in lockdown) and generate revenue.
A list of other forum threads by community members contributing great suggestions:

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/89224 : Retequizzle
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/60540 : Thrillhaus

To Current Lockdown Players: I'm not going to suggest to change playing styles or un-toggle AT or any blahblah. What I'm going to suggest is a change of mindset. Try and help your team to win (or at least consider apologizing to them if you're experimenting, damage whoring, etc.). Think of every lockdown enemy that is tough to beat (whether because of AT or UVs or playing style or whatever) as a challenge. Instead of negatively saying his/her playing is cheap, try and adapt to their playstyle. If he/she gives you a hard time in chat, either live with it or do the /ignore [name] thing. Together we can make lockdown a positive environment.

Mon, 03/31/2014 - 20:03

Knightofheaven

Notes

Of course, Lockdown isn't a main focus of OOO's development team, this is why players need to get together and push for small updates that will help to minimize complaint. In fact, something like splitting the lockdown games should take no more effort than creating new maps like Three Rings did last year (The server scanning system may need some thinking through though to minimize stress on the servers).

Furthermore, something like a chat filter system will not only benefit LD players, but also PvE players and all SK players that use the chat system.

I highly suggest for OOO to revamp the chat system, which has been the same since forever. A way to organize/hide (when needed) chat would help the whole Spiral Knights community tremendously. Please +1 if you agree.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a side note, here is a comment that Seiran made which I believe could help the lockdown community very much to keep in mind, but his post potentially is going to get lost among all the others (so it's quoted here). Note: Concerning auto target, I understand that it can be "annoying" at times. However, for now, it is something implemented into the game and not one person can stop others from using it. Complaining won't help and can only create arguments at this point.

"If there are changes you want seen in/from the community (not the Three Rings game mechanics), it has to start with each person - me, you, the reader of this post.

...

can we stop ... publicly saying "AT/[weapon]/spammer" after you die?

I'm not gonna request that everyone suddenly have faked good sportsmanship, but at the very least, try to negate some of the things that contribute to the 'toxic' environment in LD. "

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:28

Good-Spirit

Two thumbs up for you doing a deep dive into this.

I think the biggest defeat is just going to be that the creators will not focus much deserved attention to this part of the game.

I mean seriously, how many updates has it been and that message m.automatic_revive or whatever it is still displays when you're waiting to spawn.

It seriously makes you wonder... do they even look at the game?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:49

Erlandr

suggestions for maximum fun.

-Regional matchmaking (with off-region matchmaking optional).
-Full inspect on, forever. (keeps people honest)
-Blast network style Power-ups"
-Perhaps an active scoreboard w/ ping to silence the people that always call lag. This one would be hilarious to implement because people might get so distracted by constantly checking the scoreboard that they'd do significantly worse than if they hadn't.
-A team commander to spawn random powerups/debuffs/monsters in certain places to complicate battles. (One of Battlefield's most well-done features).
-Random Events ie match-wide buffs, debuffs,

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 15:01

Son-Of-Hades

Bicc boi terraria noob making

Bicc boi terraria noob making some really constructive stuff for improving the game.
/clap Knightofheaven

I read through everything and I can actually say I agree with it all. One minor detail that I could disagree with is about Unique Variants. Even F2P players who haven't spent any money on this game can get really good UVs without grinding FSC forever. For example, there's this really smart guy named Son-Of-Hades who was able to get a BKC, ASI VH FF, and ASI VH GF in just three months of merchanting. So dedication. Much pro.

I especially like your idea of a new ranking system that's not merely based on how many games you play, the ability to filter chat, a version of LD without AT, and lastly new servers. OOO needs to invest some more money in this game if they want to maintain/attract an audience.

Btw you forgot to add the radiant crystals stuff. The fact that players cannot get new 5* gear that performs better than 4* gear until a heat level of 7 is reached is a huge deterrent to actually progress in the game gear-wise; ESPECIALLY considering it takes about 30+ FSC runs to get enough crystals just to reach level 7.

On a different note, to pay the bills, OOO needs to make more DLC for P2P players, WITHOUT giving OP weapons like OCH was with the hammer. People will pay for more PvE content, even if the rewards are not super powerful; the rewards simply need to be unique.

@Erlandr
Personally I think adding the power-ups and stuff will just cause more imbalance in the game, especially since OOO clearly doesn't know what balancing is.

@Blueflood
Ikr.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 16:00

Knightofheaven

@Blueflood Thanks for your input, another goal of this thread is to gather support and show that the lockdown community is not full of idle complaints, but has a goal and direction for future change/updates. Then, OOO may take it more seriously.

@Erlandr All really creative ideas!! I think though, that we should push for smaller updates at first and suggest more complex ideas like yours after these smaller things have been accomplished. Baby steps, eh?

@Son-Of-Hades Thanks for your input also. My point on UVs is just that some people might not want to merchant either (3 months so longggg), but I don't disagree with you. (The radiants: those are also concerning for the PvE players out there and I am sure that OOO is well aware of the issue.) Also great idea on the PvE aspect. DLC without overpowered weapons is something greatly needed for maintaining interest in the game as well as generating good revenue for OOO.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 16:17

Seiran

I do like a lot of the systems you propose, but unfortunately they probably won't be focusing on Lockdown much because so relatively-few people play it :\
I recognize so many people in Lockdown without ever adding them to my friends list...
At the very least, realistic ideas are community-based suggestions. Normally, I wouldn't believe in forum 'community' related things, but since Lockdown is played mostly by regulars and the forums are visited by regulars, this might do something?

Auto-target - This is the most annoying thing about the community - not the "AT" itself, but the people who cry fowl at AT and place such importance on it when IMO it doesn't make a big difference in helping you hit unless you have terrible latency (1-2 bars) or are trying to combo (for example, only a perfectly aimed combo with DVS will keep your character from sliding to the side). Downplaying importance on this feature, I don't really believe there's any reason to separate the games according to it.

Chat filters - This I can get 100% on board with. Having actual UI to filter who you're chatting (...and listening to) is a very user-friendly idea. I don't know how many times I'd see or tell newer players "Just type /p or /party before your text". There are also many times I'd like to just keep my chat cleared, either out of annoyance or visibility's sake.

Teamwork - This just comes from actual addiction / enjoyment of the game. Rich players don't 'lose' anything when they lose multiple times, so losing that 5kcr isn't devastating. You can't do anything about individuals who just want to play for damage because hey, there's enjoyment in that too. I've seen a lot of people say capping isn't fun so they just run off and kill the entire game. The other type of players are the ones who just don't get into the whole PVP thing and just want to run for their Krogmo coins and never play it again after that.

Ranking - This is probably one of the weakest and also more difficult things to think about in the Coliseum [BN, LD]. Rankings make sense in the world of FFA and 1v1 games, but what about team games? Randomized team games? Capture the point games? When "caps" are counted solely by whoever happens to be standing on a point when it turns full (regardless of how long it actually stays in that team's control), "defends" counted on you/enemy are standing on the point itself, and "damage" doesn't necessarily mean your team wins... when teams with lower stats overall can win, how can you possibly qualitatively rank players?

You're left with wins/losses.

That might count for something, I guess.

---

While I'm on the topic of suggestions, non-randomized matchmaking (party-finder style) would let players balance (...or imbalance) their own teams. I've had the unfortunate experience of being 'famous' in game (random people adding me, sending me messages for specific reasons) and had my share of people who would have liked me on their team/guild or whatever - this is to say that regulars get known, and people will be able to tell if they want to play them or not.

Unfortunately, actual matchmaking is a bit of a strain on the server since it means you'd have to instance each party and each party would start at different times. At the moment, there are specific intervals that games will start (if enough people are queued), and people don't choose their teams. It's considerably much less stuff to manage (ranks wouldn't matter), at the expense of player control.

---

Now, for community... I've seen... certain persons spout negativity about the 'negativity' or 'quality' of the LD community.

Forum community - meh, I don't really care so much about it, but what leaves an impression to me here are attempts to hold leaderboards, events, and trashtalk. Fine by me.

In-game:
"SPAMMER"
"POLARIS NOOB"
"HAMMER NOOB"
"GUNNER NOOB"
"AT NOOB"

...well.

There are the perpetrators who do the actions, and there are the 'victims' who whine about everything. I don't think anything aside from getting a true competitor's view of the game (winning or losing is up to you - if you lose, you were outplayed; you can overcome any single matchup/strategy with enough skill; play with prediction; understand latency) will change the little 'victims'. But I will say that LD as it is is not very friendly to new players. I'm probably the right kind of personality for it because my first game, some guy derided me as a noob and blamed my team's loss on me, so I KOS'd him and set out to get better (only to be completely underwhelmed when I skilled up and met him again a few weeks later).

-------------

@ UVs:
>__> I got an ASI High on my Divine Avenger on my very first Punch.

@Son-Of-Hades:
Well, DR came out... see how people love that bomb, huh.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 16:28

Son-Of-Hades

PFFF if someone is not

PFFF if someone is not willing to merchant for 3 months, then they don't deserve UVs in the first place. Do work and reep the rewards. It's called life.

And also, if OOO actually cares about wasting the huge potential of their game, then I think it'd be a good idea to take away this:

We are lead by our passion, ownership, and high expectations, rather than deadlines... We believe that good work gets done as part of a balanced life; Three Rings has never run in 'crunch mode'.
Source: http://www.threerings.net/jobs/

I don't think any successful entertainment companies have this sort of policy. Any company with half a brain knows that not giving their audience what they want in a reasonable amount of time, rather than spending however long it takes the company to start feeling like working hard, is essential to maintain happy customers and create a fat wallet. If OOO cares about their players or the future of this game, then they really need to stop taking forever on these updates. And also, these updates need to be more meaningful. They shouldn't be hyped up to be "game-changing" when the only real differences are cosmetic (i.e. new UI, bash and dash, etc.). I'm pretty confident that with a ton of balancing, investment in better servers, more content/DLC, a FINISHED PLOTLINE, more places to explore, MORE ATTENTION TO THE PLAYERS, and a better marketing system, SK can become a game that millions of people play. I can honestly say that the basis of the game's story as well as the incredibly unique, fast-paced, and overall fun gameplay has the ability to draw a MUCH larger audience to the game. It just makes me angry seeing this amazing game go downhill... And with Mr. Nick Popovich gone, now would be a great time for the current SK development team to start stepping it up to receive the recognition and praise that the game's fundamental basis deserves.

EDIT: @Seiran
Auto-target - This is the most annoying thing about the community - not the "AT" itself, but the people who cry fowl at AT and place such importance on it when IMO it doesn't make a big difference in helping you hit unless you have terrible latency (1-2 bars) or are trying to combo (for example, only a perfectly aimed combo with DVS will keep your character from sliding to the side). Downplaying importance on this feature, I don't really believe there's any reason to separate the games according to it.

Before you make that statement, I urge you to try playing with swords more often, where unlike with guns, you have to kill people from up close all the time. You'll see what all the complaints are about the first time you play versus someone who actually knows how to use AT.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 16:39

Knightofheaven

@Seiran Thanks for your thoughts. I completely agree with almost everything you said. However, some people would simply like to play without AT for anyone, making it a "pure experience" of sorts. For example, the brandish line is significantly easier to aim with AT. This is why instead of ridding LD of AT like others have suggested, simply splitting the two communities which have so ardently disagreed with each other will create the most benefit.
@Hades I appreciate the input again, but let's also try to prevent accusation of OOO. They certainly have reasons for doing what they're doing, but we just don't know much about what they're doing. Instead, I think we can only suggest for them to be more transparent with their progress and plans for the future (and participate in regular forum threads more often). When players see a developer team respond to their concerns, that is good.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 17:06

Undeadreaperhunter

A Guy Who Likes

FINALLY!

SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 20:36

#10

Good-Spirit

@ Seiran

Hate to jump on the issue, but being mainly recon you are probably rarely if ever a victim of the talentless AT issue. It's mostly a striker vs striker issue. Whereas experience and learning latency are key factors especially in gunning, AT takes that away and just turns it into a close your eyes get close and click game. Swording is even worse, since it works with every sword and only few guns. It's also the opposite as far as ping goes. The worse your ping, the longer it takes for AT to lock on - making it a huge advantage with those with already ridiculous ping... The people who don't really need it since their reaction time is already awesome.

While I have this dead horse out, anyone else wana beat it?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 21:42

#11

Klipik-Forum

These have all been suggested before and the only thing that these threads keep coming back to is, OOO has not expressed any interest whatsoever in fixing LD, or even acknowledged the blatant fact that these issues exist. LD doesn't seem like it would be THAT HARD to fix. Yes, balancing is not easy nor simple, and the issues of toxicity and ranked play need to be addressed, but it is all definitely doable (except maybe fixing lag, but who knows about that). The real problem is that OOO isn't doing anything about this problem and one more thread isn't going to change anything.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:54

#12

Knightofheaven

@Klipik

Thanks for your input. I don't believe however, that these issues have been addressed together in a readable format. Usually, these issues are spread out in over 9000 rage/complaint threads. My hope (and the hope of many others) is that creating an organized thread with the support of many members of the community can help OOO make changes.

Also, this is not only OOO's job. Individuals can work on understanding the complaints surrounding lockdown and do better by arguing less and enjoying the pure experience more.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:05

#13

Reto-Da-Liz

+1 to everything.

Although a thread like this has already happened.
I'm talking about Thrillhaus's thread (from ages ago) with propositions and ideas, very well explained and detailed. Needless to say that nothing happened.
My hope is, of course, that maybe one day someone will listen to the players that bring up constructive criticisms, but so far there have been close to no signs of such thing.

Also, some time ago i posted this thread: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/89224
It's about trying to find a simple way to make teams a bit more fair than they are now, cause let's be honest, random =/= fair.

Anyway, I keep hoping some time a change will occur.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 02:18

#14

Knightofheaven

@reto

Thanks for your comment. Now I do remember Thrill's thread, thanks for bringing that up. Although I am suggesting something similar to that, I am also suggesting a chat filter system, which I believe would be much more straightforward and beneficial to all SK players than something like creating separate lobbies.

Again, thanks for your comment, and like Thill, I would like to suggest for everyone that cares to please share this thread with your friends and guild members to see if Three Rings can listen this time

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 05:01

#15

Feyi-Feyi

Since you're trying to get a backing for this I'll gladly give you my +1.

However, as some people have stated here:
There have been tons of suggestions/community based prepositions, that have sadly never made quite the impact they should have had.

Seiran makes a sensible point about how LD is based around a certain group of individuals.
We have no ranking system, which makes it hard for newcomers to enjoy the game, which in turn doesn't give us the playerbase
needed to push for changes. It's a vicious cycle which can only be ended on OOO's side.

Sadly OOO doesn't seem to care for LD.
I've come to view it as a mini game that was never intended to be as popular as it is today.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 10:13

#16

Erlandr

about the AT issue

UVs and Connection are enough advantages... we didn't need to have a feature that allows most people to Land hits with pinpoint accuracy.

To be perfectly honest. I don't want some *$#@ing douchebag with great ping (less than 250) to be able to hit me with near 100% accuracy and then go on a forum and tell everyone how great he is (CHRIS and many more). If there's a chance that you can miss and if you do, you should suffer greatly for it which is a concept that many chronic laggers understand quite well.

yes, I'm a lagger. I've used AT and it made absolutely no difference to my playstyle, damage or anything else because it takes 0.5-1 second to calibrate and lock.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 22:09

#17

Knightofheaven

@Feyi thanks for your support. Also, Feyi, I agree with the fact that OOO doesn't seem to care enough to update lockdown. I think almost everyone agrees on that fact. But let's give them a reason to care. Extremely important for an MMO like this is not just to be able to attract new players, but to retain an old playerbase. But with the lack of updates targeted to the regular/veteran playerbase like balancing and LOCKDOWN, many of those veteran players have been slowly trickling out and/or playing the game much less. In other words, lockdown is the ultimate end-game for many people and quitting lockdown is often akin to quitting Spiral Knights. Also, lockdown is a game played by relatively few, but it affects many. Although there is only a select playerbase really "into" lockdown, those who do not often avoid it because of the toxic environment that permeates through many of its games. Something like a chat filter and, even better, a two-type-of-lockdown system would greatly alleviate the number of arguments in lockdown. This would not only be beneficial to all lockdown players, but also anyone considering the coliseum and those avoiding lockdown because of its toxic environment. TLDR: To Three Rings: lockdown isn't a very popular game right now, but a few minor updates could help make it one. Increasing the popularity of lockdown will help retain veteran players, some of which are likely to spend real money on the game for unique variants, etc. (which are most important in lockdown) and generate revenue.
@Erlandr I appreciate your ideas, but let's refrain from starting an AT/UV/connection (anything) argument on this thread. The whole point of this thread is to prevent these arguments through both understanding from the playerbase and pushing for (small) updates from OOO.

Edit: @Sirius-Voltbreaker : Thanks for your support. We can only hope right now that these ideas will spread throughout the community and that Three Rings will care enough to make these small changes.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 19:54

#18

Sirius-Voltbreaker

I agree 100% with you.

I would also like to congratulate you for being brave enough to say this. The fact that you put the time and effort to try to make lockdown better means a lot. However, lockdown has gone through a void and is too deep to get out. This will help a bit, but people can still PM others and insult them, lockdown forums will still be screwed up, and lobbies could still be manipulated to some extent.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 14:37

#19

Seiran

community request

idk if this will mean much, but if there are changes you want seen in/from the community (not the Three Rings game mechanics), it has to start with each person - me, you, the reader of this post.

Here's an example of the poison from players making a big deal about autotarget/weapons:

This one guy got on my case about how I'm an "AT gunner" and for two games' length worth of time after he stopped playing again, then continued on to give me a lecture about why it's better not to AT and tell me untrue AT mechanics (how AT works with guns while moving... etc). I calmly took him to a GTH to prove the mechanic to him myself.
If it weren't for the fact that he decided to target me, someone else could have thought his messaging was a bit excessive. I thought he was trolling, but he was absolutely serious.

But all this came from shouting him shouting "AT!!!" after death.

...can we stop doing that? Stop publicly saying "AT/[weapon]/spammer" after you die?

It gives this impression to everyone (new, old players) that AT/weapon is a big deal and that it's this thing that everyone needs to be paranoid and witch hunt against (kill the hammer! kill the polaris!). It makes it so that if you lose, it's okay to start blaming something else instead of owning up to your own loss, and it spreads. At that point, people start to think that whatever you're shouting against is OP, so when they start losing, they'll start using it. I don't know how many times I've seen someone go "ok that's it, time for AT hammer" - like it will suddenly make a big difference?

I'm not gonna request that everyone suddenly have faked good sportsmanship, but at the very least, try to negate some of the things that contribute to the 'toxic' environment in LD.

Edit:
Just wanted to clarify that this post isn't about "AT" specifically, but people calling out/blaming anything after they die.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 00:35

#20

Joseanand

I'm from asia and I have 1 red bar latency, I have played ld with both at on and off. and in my experience.
No, AT does not help when u have a bad ping. its the negative. it actually locks you to the player's position which they were 500ms ago causing you to miss a lot of hit.
but AT does helps you to aim if the player is standing still, shocked, hit stunned, comboing slow sword etc. . .

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 01:18

#21

Knightofheaven

@Seiran Completely agree with your thought process there.

@Jose Very factual, I've experienced some of that myself when my ping is particularly high one day.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 01:38

#22

Terrty

lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

good ideas, especialy the teamwork one
do you have any idea how annoying it is when you get in a game and everybody leaves.... so annoying and gives the team a major advantage over you.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 03:22

#23

Feyi-Feyi

@Seiran:

As much as it is your opinion that AT doesn't help, it is the opinion of others that it does.
I'm not just another mindless hater, I dislike it because I used to play with AT and see what difference it makes.
There are other threads where the facts/myths are discussed (thank you Krakob) but:

As for now I don't see the 2 'factions' coming to an understanding, hence why Knight points towards a 2 league system.

The problem in any case, as I've said before is that we don't have the playerbase to make this work.
Most of the community based issues of LD are an indirect result of the game in its current state.
To push for change we need a larger community, to gain a larger community we need new people.
New people won't enjoy LD without a proper rank based system where you can grow as a player.

I'm sending OOO a mail later today asking them if they could communicate about this thread with us.
I don't think we can solve this alone, as that has been tried multiple times before.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 12:56

#24

Knightofheaven

@Terrty Thanks for your support.
@Feyi Agree 100%, thanks for taking the initiative with contacting OOO.

Edit: @ Illusion, thanks, almost forgot about the link. It's added now.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 10:48

#25

Son-Of-Hades

I think Feyi summarizes the

I think Feyi summarizes the main issues rather nicely, most importantly the fact that SK's player-base needs to be expanded.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 10:58

#26

Theirillusion

Here's that tweaking guild including how to get 64 bit java.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/62691

Wed, 01/22/2014 - 00:34

#27

Knightofheaven

Hey everyone,

Sorry for having to bump this.

I think everyone would benefit, though, from having increased awareness/understanding for the issues mentioned above. Again, please give your support if you agree with the statements, and maybe Three Rings will take this thread into consideration.

Tanks.

Wed, 01/22/2014 - 04:17

#28

Reto-Da-Liz

I think the problem of threads like this is:
Who visits forums and posts on them? Regulars
Who plays LD? Mostly Regulars
Who visits forums, posts on them and plays LD? Very very few players.

It's hard to get people involved since there's barely anyone to get involved.
Also, most of the players that post on Coliseum subforums only post to complain, rant, rage, insult others and so on.
I think we very simply lack of the playerbase to actually make a change happen.

Look at what happened with Radiants: 1000 people got pissed, 100 threads were created, 0 action was taken.
We're trying to make a change with what? 1 thread and 10-20 people?
I really don't expect anything, as usual, but let's keep hoping.

Anyway, props to Knightofheaven for not giving up.

Wed, 01/22/2014 - 05:45

#29

Brother-Zeke

Opinion on each:

Auto Target: Good idea with the AT and non-AT Lockdown options. Because of the merging option it would not split the player base into one where you couldn't get a T2 game when newer players hit the AT one (not assuming regulars or vets won't hit the AT one).

Unique Varients: Yeah, nothing anyone can really do here. Sometimes they can be cheap, sometimes they can't. I rolled an ASI High UV on my GF twice. Both in two times. Just depends on your luck.

Chat: I agree with the chat options, as when people constantly spam "noob," "hax," and "i pwnd/destroyed you" it gets annoying. Lockdown is the only place I pull out the ignore button.

Lack of Synergy: I don't know what can be changed here. Of course a new ranking system could help, but people will always damage hunt and not cap in random games because they simply "don't matter." At least there is synergy in GvG...most of the time.

Quick Deaths: Solution is to buy health trinks, which are pretty cheap (although I say this and have only bought them once).

Lag: Move to Virginia, check. But really, when people mention lag sometimes I believe them. Other times they are perfectly fine and die, then blame lag ~7 times a game. This almost belongs with the chat section because it stimulates the negative chatting.

Cost: Not a problem. Period.

As other people have said, the lack of Radiants is a huge problem. Newer knights will want to make their gear up to 5*, so if they were to play lockdown they would have the same health, but weaker defense, weaker weapons, and would die quicker. I have just about all my gear heated, except a Supernova and a few armor and helms (which are level 5). And my Obsidian weapons sitting at level 4. Let's just hope the arcade redux phase two/gunner update solves this. And regarding auto-target, I'll be honest. Sometimes I use it [toggle], sometimes I don't. The fact that it is available to everyone makes me want to say it's fine, but I know how annoying it is to have 98% Acheron accuracy (and you're the target). In general AT is okay, but when used with certain weapons it can get ridiculous. And when people do 180 degree flourish hits it's probably not AT, it doesn't target onto stuff behind you, just saying.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 17:57

#30

Knightofheaven

Bump~

Thanks, all the contributors here!

Fri, 07/11/2014 - 01:37

#31

Flowsick

Wat

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/60540
The tweaking guide isn't the only thing thrill has given to the game

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 07:13

#32

Oroseira

Well then

I fully approve of this thread. Maybe it'll stop making LD inaccessible for many people (including me), and actually be better.

"It seriously makes you wonder... do they even look at the game?"
Maybe. They are adding a new map in the gunner update.

Wed, 07/16/2014 - 19:48

#33

Knightofheaven

Thanks Flow for posting that link, I completely forgot about that thread. Added to the original post.

@Moonstone, I certainly hope so.

@Dragonuity, That was covered in Thrill's link - node 60540

Wed, 07/16/2014 - 17:49

#34

Dragonuity

What about energy revive?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 03:15

#35

Tdog-Turbo-Dog

+1 for some LD love!

+1 for some LD update love from the devs!
everyone! +1 with me!

and i agree, the toxicity needs to fixed.
I'm one of the many who contributed to it actualy...........
By trieing to burn hamma spammaz and polaris spammers on a wodden stake.......
yeah.
:/

Sat, 08/09/2014 - 16:55

#36

Silk-Rose

...

This game isn't compatible with serious pvp right now. first of all, for it to happen, OOO should have more servers (latency is one key thing when going against other player, and this affects a huge part of the playerbase, or did you thought everyone was northamerican?).
Then, the weapons are thought for pve, you would need balance changes specifically for pvp, regular tweaks to keep things fair, and remove stuff like energy reviving. Also uv's are a pve oriented mechanic, since they rely on grinding (pve mechanics should rely around practice, wich is completly different from grinding), and the system doesn't match people with similar equipment (it will put someone with all 3 stars equipment but a 4 star sword and with no trinkets or weapon slots against someone with true love lockets and such.....).

Also, this game is way too flashy (specially when we take a look at bombs effects for example), a serious pvp enviorment requiers clarity, that means players should be the first thing to catch your eye, then the attacks, then everything else (nitronome is the best example of this, but really, it aplies to almost everything in some degree). Right now everything competes for visual attention (this would call for a revamp from the design team), but then again, those flashy effect and details are ok with a pve mentality were everything is predictable so actually seeing isn't that important (someone who's done vana enough times can almost do it with the eyes closed....for example).

So, what i'm saying is, PvP and PvE are radically different. For lockdown to be able to hold it's ground as serious PvP, we would need changes aimed specifically towards it (and not global changes), along with a much, much better matchmaking system, and first and foremost another server (you can't expect someone with 300ms to compete in equal terms with someone who has 50ms, you just can't. And you could have the best internet connection in the world and still have a shitty ping since distance from the server is a thing, HUGE one, it amazes me how some people don't understand the difference between lag and latency)

Sun, 08/10/2014 - 16:53

#37

Turn-Me-On

^I would edit out the word

^I would edit out the word describing ping in your last sentence...if I were you.

I would like to suggest that maybe OOO isn't trying to copy already defined examples of PvP, but make their own version. The main problem is PvE weapons in PvP though. Most successful PvP games don't have many huge AoE weapons, but rather precision, ranged attacks, with melee as well.

Examples are:
TF2
CoD
Halo
Freefall Tournament
Dota 2

From my experience with these games, there are not many spammable AoE weapons in there (Nothing that has huge AoE, Duration, and single-large damage). Also, aside from Freefall Tournament, I don't believe there is a Lock-On feature (FFT has an extremely steep learning curve though, you need the lock on there since its a 3-D flight environment).

In other words, Polaris and AT gotta go in order for Lockdown to take on a real PvP meaning.

But the games mentioned are not MMOs per se, just pure PvP games. SK is different, which makes it unique, and hard to adapt it based off of unrelated examples such as the games above.

Still, Lockdown was intended for PvP, and as such, should be optimized for skilled players, rather than trying to be all-inclusive, as PvE is meant to be.

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To Remove The Negative Connotations Surrounding LD: Ideas and Methods for Improvement...