Armor balance Issues
Mon, 05/30/2011 - 17:22
(Hey your not nick!) Well that's right, however, I felt this thread needed to be made. If nick wishes to close this and start his own for the sake of orginization that's fine. As for now I was already thinking about making a balance thread for discussion, questioning whether or not to because I'm semi-new to the game. (Side note: balance is very different to best armor thread imo, but once again if this is felt un-needed be sure to close it.)
nick's Guidelines:
Please read:
This thread is here to collect useful balance issues relating to armor. Posting balance issues requires a specific format outlined below. Posts detailing a balance issue not using the outlined format will be deleted. We want to keep this clean so that it's easy for us to parse.
Secondly, we want to get feedback from experienced players who believe they have an understanding of the item they are describing. Please do not post with knee-jerk reactions to using an item. Once you feel as though you have a grasp of the item and feel there is a balance issue, we welcome your feedback.
Please use the following format:
Armor Name
Summary: A one sentence summary of the balance issue.
Followed by a detailed description. Try to be as specific as possible.
(Also does anyone feel like there should be a shield balance issue thread? Or even have this be half and half because they need to be balanced together?)
Tue, 05/31/2011 - 08:53
#2
Tue, 05/31/2011 - 09:58
#3
Cobalt, cobalt,
Cobalt, cobalt, cobalt...
It's supposed to be the "balanced" armor, but it essentially protects against Normal and almost nothing else. The art is very knightly, but the defenses make it some of the least useful armor anyone can pick. New players, seeing Kozma's inventory, are quite likely to start thinking that Piercing is a common attack type... and get themselves beaten up in the Clockworks by all the attacks that aren't piercing.
Suggestion 1: The breastplate switches to Normal + Elemental; the helmet switches to Normal + Shadow; leave the shield as Normal + Piercing.
Suggestion 2: Change certain monsters' attacks to deal piercing damage, or add more monsters that do inflict piercing damage. Wolvers' bites might be logcal for Piercing.
Thu, 06/02/2011 - 08:21
#4
Shadowsun Set
Handgun Damage
Shadowsun Set
Handgun Damage Bonus needs to be bumped up to medium on each piece for reasons being:
- curse and poison vulnerability are too much of a penalty
- swords get too much love (see: Skolver set [no vulnerability, one immunity])
- guns suck as they are already, no need to bottom them down with poor gunning gears
Thu, 06/02/2011 - 11:56
#5
Alternative Demo Defenses
Armor Name: Nonexistent Demo Sets
Summary: Demo sets offer just Normal/Elemental Defense.
First, thanks for actually giving bombers multiple Normal/Elemental Defense options. And one with fire resistance? Wow, that's some serious love. Makes me feel really sorry for gunners.
But - how about some Shadow or Piercing Defense? Wouldn't mind seeing a Skelly Bomber Set since bombs and zombies go so well together :D
Thu, 06/02/2011 - 12:26
#6
Graveyard Haunter, duh?
Graveyard Haunter, duh?
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 00:34
#7
Shock
There are only 2 armors that protect against shock, and they are on the same line.
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 06:18
#8
Re: Curse resist argument (Armor of the Fallen)
Speaking from someone who uses solely heavy swords (Khorovod, Avenger, Gran Faust)...
I don't think the curse + faust argument works... at least not with the Gran Faust.
Most swords (including the Faust) have about a 2 second delay for charge - the Gran Faust has a 4 second delay at level 10 (remember, only the charge attack curses yourself), making it so you'd probably only really use it when trying to poke at a boss or running laps around Arena 3 running from a mob of robots.
If I used Armor of the Fallen, I'd be happy enough with the attack speed boost to stick with GF's regular attacks.
Damage penalty vs fiends sounds kind of icky for solo, but if you've ever been in a bad party of 4, you've probably had to experience fighting monsters with over twice the hp by yourself anyway (since most people tend to split up - something I'll never understand). And if you're in a team, then you can act as support damage. It's not like you're losing 50% of your attack.
As far as aesthetics go, I will agree - Valkyrie having resistance to the curses of evil sounds fine as a defense/armor thing, but the unfortunate side effect to it is that it makes it look like the "good" alignment can use the "evil" sword and not vice versa xD
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 13:31
#9
@Tenlki
Yeah, I just got the Gran Faust awhile ago, and I find myself no longer spamming charge attacks as much as I used to with the Faust.
But I still do find that the restriction of the Gran Faust's charge attack to be annoying. This could be simply because I play pick up parties and solo, and therefore I end up having to do run arounds often.
The Armor of Fallen's speed boost is nice, but I'm just saying that there are too much penalties for the cost of getting that speed.
Damage penalty is icky. Though I see what you mean with if you consider the whole team, that collectively the team is only getting around a 13% damage penalty versus fiends, but in the scope of your single character you are losing a whole 50% damage against fiends. (In comparison to the Valkyrie Set, which I am comparing the Armor of Fallen for terms of balance.) If you said "It's not like you're team is losing 50% of their attack" I would agree with you. Since, the thing is all weakness can be overcome with a good, compatible team, but in terms of a single character and even more specifically in terms of balancing a single set of armor, we shouldn't look at the multiplicative effects of having good teammates. The damage penalty is not crippling when playing with a good team, but in terms of armor balancing, it seems to be a bit high of a penalty to put on the set.
Using the Valkyrie as a comparison, I think that the Armor of Fallen, having on the the highest penalty ratings (medium) of any equipment, could use a buff (or more accurately, a penalty reduction).
Fri, 06/03/2011 - 14:32
#10
Gigafreak: It could also be
Gigafreak: It could also be interesting if Cobalt gear were instead substantially weaker than all other armors, but also offered protection from all 4 damage types on a single piece.
Sat, 06/04/2011 - 09:49
#11
I do not have the armor nor
I do not have the armor nor do I think there are any that do(aside from a costume) but I feel it should be mentioned
Chaos Set:
Summary: There does not appear to be any reason what-so-ever to use the Chaos Set aside from a costume.
That about sums it up to be honest. There are other armors that offer a similar type of defense( Normal + Elemental) but does not come with so many drawbacks. Given a choice I am sure almost everyone will would pick Volcanic Plate Mail(http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Volcanic_Plate_Mail it also offers Normal + Elemental defense) as opposed to the Chaos Cloak(http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Chaos_Cloak)
Once again I have not used either one of these armors but I do feel that something should be done about this set. If there is anyone that has used can they provide better feedback?
Sun, 06/05/2011 - 08:57
#12
Gunslinger Armors (all)
Gunslinger armor is weaker than Bomber and Swordsmen armors.
Nameless Poncho is the Vog Cub armor, only without the added fire resistance. Shadowsun Slicker is a Skolver Coat, only with less damage bonus, no cold resistance, and weaknesses to curse and poison. Deadshot and Justifier are plainly less useful than these already "nerfed" armors... let alone a lacking equivalent to Mad Bomber. Helms are similarly crippled. UVs are also far harder to farm, as there is no 2* gunslinger armor while the equivalents for swords and bombs exist. In average the Vog Cub (4 chances for UV, at 2,3,4,5*) will have a 34.39% chance of a UV (assuming 10% per craft), while Nameless (3 chances at 3,4,5) will have 27.1% for a UV. No equivalent 2* shield to the (new) Bristling Buckler.
I think those are the main issues with Gunslinger armors.
Fri, 06/24/2011 - 12:22
#13
Dredging this topic up, since there's still a good pile of words
Yeah, I'm here to bash Armor of the Fallen too.
Here's a direct comparison between Armor of the Fallen and the Vog Cub Coat:
= Equal Health
= Equal in Fire Resist
= Equal in Secondary Defense (Same amount, just Shadow for one and Elemental for the other)
= Fallen has increased Poison Resist, but Curse Vulnerability; about equal to no other status bonus.
- Vog Cub has higher Normal Defense
- Vog Cub has twice the Attack Speed
- Fallen deals 13% less damage VS fiends per piece
+ Fallen applies attack speed to Guns as well as swords
If we consider the Wolver line to be a fairly standard "bonus-giving" type armor, Fallen Armor needs buff... badly.
Its one perk- giving attack speed to guns- isn't particularly useful, as guns have that whole Reload thing that isn't affected by attack speed increases.
Personally, I'd up the Fallen gear's Attack Speed to Medium- keep the lower defense and lower damage to fiends, those are a decent offset to balance the gun bonus, even if guns in general are improved in strength!
Thu, 06/30/2011 - 01:59
#14
I would say this thread needs
I would say this thread needs to be revived and looked at by the devs!
Thu, 06/30/2011 - 05:38
#15
Crixdec it's right
yeah the chaos set definetely need some improvement bring back the charge time reduction at least,as it is now it's the most pathetic set of the game srsl
Thu, 06/30/2011 - 07:03
#16
Concern: Jelly Armor, Helms,
Concern: Jelly Armor, Helms, & Shields
Problem: Sleep Resistance
Complaint: Jelly armor compares fairly well against other armor of the same sort, such as skelly and grey owlite shield (as far as the shield branches go), but the fact of the matter is that no monsters in the game inflict sleep resistance right now, and no weapons do either. as far as something that would be encountered it's a nonexistant threat, and until such time that it's implemented...
Suggestion: Replace sleep resistance with some other benefit, such as bonus health, until sleep inducing enemies and weapons are implemented.
Tue, 07/26/2011 - 07:23
#17
Bump
Shadowsun Set
Summary: The max debuffs are not worth a low damage bonus.
Shadowsun set provides a maximum poison/curse weakness (each piece) and offers only a low damage bonus. Wearing just 1 piece, I receive 54 seconds of curse and 13 seconds of poison, which effectively render me useless for the duration--a low damage bonus is certainly not worth it, especially when compared to Skolver which not only gives twice as much damage, it offers no weaknesses at all.
Nameless Set
Summary: No status resists?
Comparing this to Vog and Volcanic Demo, which BOTH offer Maximum fire resist, I'm surprised to see no useful resistances on any of the gun pieces. It would be cool to have some status resistance (fire, anyone?) so this can stand up to its sword/bomb counterparts, which are infinitely more valuable since asi on guns isn't that great anyway.
Armor of Fallen/Crown of Fallen
Summary:
The Fallen Set is not as useful in comparison to the Valkyrie Set.
I believe that the Fallen Set's "Damage Penalty vs Fiends: Medium" is set too high. I can see how they added this in to balance for the "Increased Attack Speed: Low", but I feel that they over looked something. I can see how the developers said to themselves, "oh, we added attack speed to the Fallen Set, we have to take away something, lets make it the opposite of the Valkyrie and make it weak against fiends." Using the chart given on the wiki (http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Abilities), one would think that you would be getting 1 boost (low) in a useful ability (attack speed) and losing 2 boosts (medium) in a not as useful ability (damage vs fiends). But the thing is Valkyrie Set has "Increased Damage Bonus vs Fiends: Medium", which means that the Fallen Set would actually be losing 4 boosts (Very high). If you we're to be using the whole set, you would be losing 8 whole boosts, and using the numbers on the same wiki page, that equates to over 50% difference in damage between the Fallen Set and the Valkyrie Set (No, you can't only lose 6 since "that's the Max" ,you are actually going from +4 to -4). This makes it hard to get through the clockworks with soloing being even harder, where one would find great trouble going through infernal stages and arenas (Trojan), not the mention the fact that Silkwings are a common healer found in many stages. You could say that the damage penalty makes up for the huge gain in fire resistance, but the Fallen set also sees a huge loss in curse resistance. Developers probably saw curse as a very low tier resistance (due to the fact that only a Phantom's charge attack can curse you), and thought that this would even out. However, in terms of utility, this restricts the use of one of the best weapons in the game, the Faust and the Gran Faust. A Valkyrie would be able to use a Faust than a Fallen (which seems out of theme), with the Valkyrie experiencing a curse of one item and one weapon for 20 some seconds while the Fallen would experience a minute of all weapons and all items gone. Unless it was the developers intentions to take a one of the coolest archetypes of all time and make it difficult for them to fulfill their time honored tradition (fallen heroes always fight alone :D) and make them a poor asset to a team, I see some balancing issues here. To fix this i propose that at the least, the damage penalty be set to "low" so that the difference between the Valkyrie and the Fallen is "high" instead of "very high". Though it would be to my joy if they were to take out the penalty altogether or even get rid of some of the curse penalty, I feel that the developers want to make a point that the armor is cursed and makes you weak against evil.
As a summary:
Fallen Set=+2 attack speed
Valkyrie Set=+4 damage to fiends / Fallen Set=-4 damage to fiends
+2 attack speed comes with a damage penalty of -8?
A bit faster attack speed does not make up for an over 50% decrease in damage to a hefty amount of the monsters in game.
Solution, decrease the penalties on the Fallen Set.
(numbers from http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Abilities)
(This speel was brought to you by a guy who found writing this to be more fun than chemistry homework and one who has recently made himself a Fallen set and finds the inability to reliably use Faust and the difficulty of fiends to be troublesome.)