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An extensive weapon buff suggestion

13 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]
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Gome-Xyz

Spiral Knights is a great game, which is why I'm still here 7 years after I originally started playing.

We've had ups, we've had downs, but overall is an enjoyable experience. Building an arsenal of weapons to use in the clockwork fields to battle out many different types of enemies. I've played with every weapon line, and there are some problems evident with balancing.

I don't think it would be far fetched to say that most who have invested a good amount of time into the game have realised this already. In this post I'm going to point to certain weapon lines and try to come up with some compromises that will make the weapons more viable than they are in the current state of the game, and look for feedback on my ideas. Some of these ideas are hybrids of ideas of folk over at The Arcade discord server, where I'm almost ever-present.

The following 3 posts are categorized into Swords, Handguns and Bombs, and furthermore are sorted by weapon name (This does not apply if a weapon is also given another change outside of its weapon line). I hope this makes it more convenient to read than one large wall of text in a single post.

The number in the square parenthesis represent the order in which they were written, with Divine Avenger being [1], making it the first idea change written. As I've opted to loosely sort by name after writing most things, and everything is non-sequitur, I hope you can forgive parts that don't quite make sense out of order.

This took around 8 hours of brainstorming and consulting others, what I want from this is feedback, what do you like, what do you not like, what should be changed? Did I miss anything?

And what I hope for the most is that Grey Havens acknowledges this and considers at least some of these changes. Perhaps some belong, perhaps others don't. Community feedback is what you were looking for after the Vault update, and that's a step in the right direction. To continue in the right direction, perhaps having an open ear to existing concerns of the playerbase and acting upon these concerns will make the players happier.

Please note that every suggestion was made with resources required to make the change in mind, which is why most are just stat changes.

Bild des Benutzers Gome-Xyz
Gome-Xyz
Swords

I'll start with swords

  • Amputator [13]
  • We felt a similar situation to that of Cold Iron Vanquisher, and as CIV plays a similar role to Amputator, we felt giving a Defense Down! debuff to the Amputator against slime targets would be another welcome improvement.

  • Calibur [10]
  • The Calibur line is mechanically very solid, however there is some inconsistency with the charge attack, as it can hit a single enemy up to 3 times in a single charge, but the third hit is elusive against targets that arent turrets, and is still hard to get the second hit a non stationary target. They also require a damage buff on basic hits. I think 15% increase would be enough to make them do more damage than Brandishes against neutral targets.

  • Leviathan Blade [11]
  • The knockback on basic hits should be made equal to that of Cold Iron Vanquisher, so you aren't knocking back and chasing enemies with swings.
    The knockback on charge attack should be reduced to make this weapon less disruptive in parties, and closer to the charge user.

  • Cold Iron Vanquisher [12]
  • This weapon is really hard to balance. Most, if not all suggestions up until this point have been stat changes. But I cannot fathom a way to improve CIV by changing stats alone. This weapon is in a really bad spot, and the others who were around to help me work something out were also stuck for a while.
    We came up with two ideas, but they aren't as simple as stat changes.

    The first idea was to give the Vanquisher a Defense Down! debuff on combo finisher and/or charge attacks against undead targets. This would give the weapon good utility, which is particularly enjoyable as swords don't have many utilitarian options.

    The second idea was to have the range of the blade be increased, by ~33% and represented visually with a phantom extension to the blade. This would result in the charge being able to hit an additional time to what it does now.

  • Cutters [6]
  • Cutters are in a really weird spot, they are very risky to use completely without stopping mid-combo, and generally isnt worth doing. The gimmick of the cutter line is to be a fast weapon, but what point is there of having a fast weapon if one of it's drawbacks is lots of endlag? The endlag of finishing the combo should be reduced by at least half.
    On top of this, the cutter should be gifted another flinching strike, currently, only the final strike of cutters flinch, and by the time you reach that flinching strike, you're very likely to be hit by the enemy you're attacking. I believe the 3rd or 4th strike should be granted the ability to flinch, saving wielders of being hit.
    I believe the charge attack on cutters should be shield cancellable at any time during the charge. As it is currently, the charge on cutters are too high risk and typically low reward. Having them be shield cancellable will immediately make them usable.

  • Dread Venom Striker [7]
  • Dread Venom Striker should have the chance of inflicting poison be increased to a minimum of 10% chance to inflict poison per strike. This would be a justified change as it loses it's ability to flinch on charge in exchange to inflict poison, however, similarly to the status flourishes, the trade off isn't really well balanced, and unfortunately this makes Wild Hunting Blade more consistent, and as a result, typically better, which is why I believe the chance of poison should be increased.

  • Divine Avenger (and Gran Faust) [1]
  • Truth be told this really isn't a balancing suggestion but more a reversion suggestion. I'm sure most are aware, of a "bug" surrounding Divine Avenger's charge attack, in which if you are close to a wall, the projectiles don't spawn and instead seem to act as if they hit the wall behind you.
    This is actually intended design. A long time ago there was a bug involving DA and the wheel launchers in Firestorm Citadel, in which you could break the wheel launchers (this was when invincible wheel launchers did not exist) by lining yourself up horizontally with the wheel and using the charge attack. In order to combat this, DA was changed in order to prevent this bug from being abused, by making the charge fail if you are too close to a wall. When the Shadowplay mission was introduced, the invulnerable wheel launchers were introduced, however the change to DA was never reverted, leaving DA in a slightly handicapped state for not much reason. I believe this change should be reverted so Divine Avenger can be at a more usable state.
    * Note, this bug also applies to Gran Faust, but is less noticable as the charge isn't commonly used.

  • Flourishes (All) [4]
  • Flourishes mechanically are very balanced, but are very quirky without the use of AT. It's quite difficult to get a complete combo off on a non-stationary target, and even when the target is stationary it is slightly troublesome. All flourishes suffer due to being mechanically the same, and require adjustment so they are not inconsistent on when they hit and when they don't.

  • Status Flourishes [5]
  • Status flourishes should be sidegrades, but when put next to Final Flourish or Barbarous Thorn blade, they are pratically downgrades. Their chance of proccing their status is too low that you are really trading off damage for a very inconsistent return. I believe the chance of proccing on the Flamberge line should cap out at 40%, if not, more, and the chance on the Rigadoon line should cap out at 20%

  • Troika [8]
  • Troikas in particular are very, very weak and unsafe to use. It's understandable that they're unsafe, they're slow swords so it makes sense, but the risk-reward ratio doesn't quite balance out.
    Troikas need a damage buff first of all. Troikas do equal damage to Sealed Swords, and are out damaged by Warmaster Rocket Hammer, I feel this should not be the case. As it is a normal weapon, it should do more damage than elemental counterparts to neutral targets. A 25% damage increase to both Triglav and Sudaruska should suffice.
    On top of that, it is somewhat underwhelming that Troikas cannot flinch on initial swing, granting them this ability would make them safer enough to balance out the-risk reward of using the weapon.
    I believe the status infliction chances should be increased. Sudaruska not inflicting stun on regular attacks is fair, however I believe the charge attack should have a high chance to stun, at least 75%, preferably 90%. I believe the Freeze chance on Triglav should be at least 60%. This would make the charges more valuable to use, and be a nice way to control crowds. Additionally, the status strengths should be increased to strong, there is not much reason for them to be inflicting weaker status strength than Brandishes, when they are slow, heavy swords.

  • Turbillion [9]
  • Turbillion is an interesting weapon, but unfortunately, interesting doesn't automatically translate into great. The spur line has been very quirky for some time now. Sadly these quirks weren't ironed out even after the addition of Turbillion.
    The charge attack for the Turbillion has an unecessarily long wind up, this wind up time should be reduced by at least a half, perhaps 75%, as it takes about as much time to release a charge attack as Troikas, despite not being a heavy sword. Along with this, the tornado fired by the Turbillion charge should be fired at swing, rather than shortly after. The projectile should also pull enemies along with it, akin to a Brandish and travel further.
    Lastly, the Turbillion has a larger projectile on the last swing of the combo, however this doesn't translate into slightly more damage, I believe having more damage on that projectile would improve the Turbillion for the better.

Bild des Benutzers Gome-Xyz
Gome-Xyz
Handguns

Secondly, handguns.

  • Alchemers [14]
  • I've discussed this in a previous thread, but I'll shorten it to, making Alchemers more consistent weapons by removing the randomness of the first ricochet on each projectile.

  • Antigua [18]
  • Antigua is in a rough spot, most other guns are generally better, and with the addition of the specialized Blasters, many players have left their Antiguas in their arsenal to collect dust. The first idea in mind to increase potential is to further reduce or remove the movement speed reduction while firing it. Antiguas are the lightweight guns. This should be reflected more than being fast-firing. Furthermore, Antiguas do not have any feature that defines a good player from a great player.
    The damage of Antiguas is particularly troublesome, simply increasing the damage will make them a superior weapon type to Blasters, and they already require much less thought than Blasters to use effectively. Unfortunately the best way to improve them while keeping them balanced with Blasters would be adding a new mechanic to Antiguas. Each consecutive shot (perhaps on the same enemy, perhaps not) will increase the bullet damage by 10% of the last hit, this bonus would be lost if the player misses a shot, or if they reach the end of the magazine. This will define someone who knows what they're doing from someone who is still learning, as well as increase effectiveness.

    Sept. 7th edit - Three new ideas, without touching damage numbers.

    1. Allow for the player to move around during charge.
    2. For a kiting gun, it's rather strange that the charge locks you in place for as long, if not, longer than an autogun's charge, with little benefit. Allowing the player to move around while using the charge, and only locking the movement at the last shot would be great for the weapons.

    3. Remove the first five shots from the charge attack
    4. I do like this change a lot, however the problem is it would just be a weaker Magnus charge attack, albeit with wider range, but it definitely would see more use.

    5. Have a weaker version of the charge attack bird be shot out on the last hit
    6. This would make the weapons much more interesting, and the birds would flinch or knock enemies back (preferably flinch, as it's less disruptive than knockback). Perhaps giving the bird a hard cap of 2 or 3 hits before despawning, as well as doing the same damage as regular shots should keep it line with blasters.

  • Obsidian Carbine [21]
  • The chance to poison should be increased, as you are trading a consistent bonus of damage versus Gremlins for a small chance to poison.

  • Autoguns [-]
  • Autoguns are great, unfortunately two of the options outshadow the remaining two. This shouldn't be the case.

  • Plague Needle [16]
  • Plague Needle is an interesting spot, and akin to the CIV, it has a weapon that severly overshadows it, the Blitz Needle. With the Plague Needle, you trade some damage for the ability to apply a strong poison. Unfortunately the additional damage from poison doesn't improve damage by enough to make it a sidegrade to the Blitz. I believe the damage should be increased to make the damage of Plague be equal to that of Blitz when the target is affected by a strong poison. This will bring it up to a sidegrade of Blitz, which will make players pick up their Plague Needle more often.

  • Volcanic Pepperbox [17]
  • Volcanic Pepperbox and Plague Needle have the same damage to a neutral target which is justified by them both doing statuses, if Plague Needle damage were to be increased, Volcanic Pepperbox should receive the same damage increase.

  • Catalyzers [2]
  • Catalyzers are in a quite sticky spot. I imagine they're somewhat hard to balance, but as it stands now, are quite underpowered. The only time you'd use a catalyzer would be when doing Catalyzer parties, the weapon is a gimmick, which is okay, but it needs a little more "oomph", my proposal is that basic attacks on Catalyzers do more than a single point of damage. I've had some ideas thrown at me, such as the damage of a detonated tag with no knockback, I feel that would be a bit much, so I believe 70% of the tag explosion damage would be a fair number, and give it use outside of spamming shots at an enemy for 15 seconds to kill it, more if in a party.
    On top of that, catalyzers lock players in place for far too long when using charge attacks, which makes it very impractical to use in many situations, as you have a high risk of being hit, making it particularly difficult to use in enclosed spaces. This is a fair trade off for weapons like autoguns or alchemers, because those are high burst damage weapons that require little set up, but considering how long it takes to prepare tags to do great damage, I feel that it would be a fair change to half the time you are locked in place. The time you are locked in place seems to be 0.8s, this should be made to be 0.4s.
    Finally, I would like to adress the Neutralizer. The Neutralizer, is a normal weapon that deals no status. A trend within the game is that weapons that inflict no status have a damage increase to compensate for the lack of status. However this is not the case, and we are confident this is bug rather than intentional game design as this occurs no where else within the game. Neutralizer's charge bullet does more damage than Biohazard's bullet neutrally, which is to be expected, however the problem lies when we look at the tag damage. Biohazard tags do more damage neutrally than Neutralizer. This is a bug that severely impedes the effectiveness of the weapon and should be fixed. I don't imagine it taking more than 5 mintues to fix, so please, do so!

  • Permafroster (and to a lesser extent, Polaris) [20]
  • Permafroster by nature is counterintuitive. The Pulsar weapon line's differentiating attribute is to keep enemies at a distance through high knockback, however Permafroster freezes them, which completely negates the knockback any time it freezes.
    Unfortunately I have no ideas on how to adjust this without changing how the freeze status works.

  • Supernova [19]
  • Supernova just needs a damage increase, more so now that there are 2 more alternatives in the Pulsar crafting line, so it can compete better with other Pulsars. Currently it does ~10% more damage than Valiance, and I think this should remain consistent, so ~10% more damage than Valiance after its damage increase.

  • Tortoguns [15]
  • Tortoguns have too many inhibiting factors to make them good weapons, which is rather unfortunate when you consider the amount of effort that is put into acquiring them.
    Most importantly, invinticlinks most definitely need to be removed from the weapon. Invinticlinks were previously on Shard bombs and Seraphynx's Light Ray, but was reverted some time ago, there is no reason for them to exist solely on Tortoguns.
    In addition, the Tortogun charge should not displace enemies when they land, enemies try and path around shards, which severely reduce the potential damage of the weapons. Removing knockback from the charge attack and granting them all shock status on charge will increase damage output and make the weapons feel great to use.
    Tortogun's basic attack projectiles need a range increase, they are guns, but have a really short range when the forward movement isnt considered.

    Sept. 7th Note
    Perhaps if shock was given, knockback would be fine on the shards, as the shock would keep the enemies in place just enough to get some more damage in.

  • Valiance [3]
  • Valiance was a pretty great weapon, until it got severely overshadowed near the end of 2014 with the gunner update's specialized blaster additions.
    A very justifiable change would be increasing the damage of Valiance so it isn't almost completely overshadowed by the other 3 blasters out of very specific situations. I believe a 25-35% damage increase would suffice. It should not do the same damage as the specialized damage blasters against a neutral target, that makes it less desirable when compared.

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Gome-Xyz
Bombs

Bombs are quite problematic in the current state of the game. There are currently 20 bombs, currently, excluding the promo exclusive Celestial Vortex.
6 of these bombs are Shard bombs. 6 of these are Atomizers. 3 are Blast, 3 are Vortexes. The remaining 2 bombs are the most interesting and seemingly regarded as the best ones. These being Dark Briar Barrage and Dark Retribution. I think Atomizers, Status Vortexes, DBB and DR are well balanced, but looking at the second half of the bombs, you start to see where a bomber's arsenal starts to fall short. Most notably is the distinct lack of pure elemental damage options. The best damage options are due to status rather than mechanics, which hurts. Badly.

  • Blast Bombs [25]
  • Out of the 3 Blast Bombs. Only one of which is particularly notable. Nitronome, and even then is particularly disruptive in parties, driiving bombers to playing a supportive role or risk annoying party members. On top of this, the damage output of Blast bombs is hindered by the high knockback they deal. I believe all blast bombs should receive a damage increase of 15-25%

  • Irontech Destroyer [26]
  • Irontech destroyer should act like how Nitronome is currently, albeit with some reduced knockback, this will leave bombers with a reliable damage source, that still allows for distancing a user from their foes, but be less disruptive than how it is currently in parties.

  • Nitronome [27]
  • Nitronome should deal reduced knockback, but still a fair amount more than Dark Briar Barrage. This should make Nitronome a welcome weapon to parties, and give another damage option to bombers.

  • Graviton Vortex [24]
  • Graviton is in a similar, but inverted situation of Plague Needle.
    It is severely overshadowed by the Obsidian Crusher, as Vortexes are support bombs, I can't envision a way to make it more desirable outside of giving it either larger pull range or giving it a status.
    I feel giving it a larger pull range should suffice, but it has to be a notable increase, and not something small like a 10% increase. Perhaps a 25-30% increase would balance out for not having a status, although maybe the damage of Graviton may need to be made equal to that of Obsidian Crusher, which would be a fair trade for larger range.
    As for the status route, gving the Graviton the ability to inflict freeze at a relatively low chance, perhaps 10-30%, may work but I'm conflicted on this as freeze is quite a strong debuff to give to vortexes.
    If neither of these work, another option would be increase the damage by a fair amount, so the explosion can be used to finish off remaining enemies more reliably than the other vortexes.

  • Shard Bombs (Non-Status) [22]
  • Shard Bombs are nowhere near as great as they used to be, and as a result, severely impeded the capabilities and arsenal of a bomber. Instead of a simple buff to damage, to make the bombs feel stronger as well as more interesting to play with there are some changes that would bring Shards to a good level as well as making them more enjoyable to use.

    1. Adding a 9th centralized shard
    2. What this means is once the shard detonates, there will be an additional shard at the placement of the bomb.

    3. Increasing the area that each shard can damage
    4. When combined with the first change, this should result in the bomb having complete coverage, shard bombs are one of two types of bomb that doesn't have complete coverge, and the other bomb is Dark Retribution, which compensates by having high damage potential.

    5. Allow for shards to spawn when placed next to a wall
    6. Currently Shards lose effectiveness when used near or next to walls, as some do not spawn. This should be adjusted to allow shards to be effective in tigher locations.

    7. Reduce the fuse time for shards
    8. Currently, Shards currently take about 3.5 to 4 seconds from placement to explode completely, this is longer than Big Angry Bomb and Irontech Destroyer which is at ~2.8s

    With all of the listed changes, Shard Bombs will be a weapon worth picking up.

  • Deadly Shard Bomb
  • For some reason, the Deadly Shard Bomb shares damage tables with the other non-status bombs, which is really to the detriment of the weapon. This is the same situation as Valiance yet worse as these weapons were introduced at the same time, and also have status variants. The damage should be increased by 15-25% so that it is not overshadowed by practically every other weapon available.

  • Shard Bombs (Status) [23]
  • Reverting them to their former glory would do wonders for Bombers. If it's insisted that Shard Bombs are kept as they are, then they will follow the same changes as the non-status shards.

    Allowing the former glory of shards to return in a new weapon line would be a great addition to the bomber arsenal however.

Zincamania-Forum

Some points about cutters:

* The difference between flinching and getting hit is really just experience and ASI. If you asked me which loadout I would feel safest with in a random mission, I would pick my DVS loadout. I feel safer using my DVS than when I'm using regular brandish attacks. It is simply a matter of being used to a weapon. ASI helps a lot to finish your combo faster and deliver the flinch. I usually play with ASI +3 on DVS and the flinch is sometimes only barely in time (e.g. interrupting a Mecha Knight charge attack is pretty consistent but I think with less ASI you'd be too slow and take the hit). Adding an extra flinch just makes the weapon easier to use, but won't make it much stronger. It will still get outdamaged by OP weapons.

* The charge attack for cutters is just bad in general. Allowing it to be shield-cancelled wouldn't make it any better. Compare these damage values obtained in T3 guild hall (d23) with max damage DVS: full combo = 1318 damage, full charge = 1490 damage. Combos execute way faster than charges (charge time + execution) and so charges just have flat out lower DPS than combos. So even if interrupting the charge were possible, you still wouldn't use it because the combos just have more DPS. Some weapons are about combos, some are about charges, some are good with both. I think it is fine that cutters are about attacking and not charging.

* WHB is not superior to DVS. The poison makes DVS useable because it gives a large DPS increase. The fact that WHB doesn't have this and also that it attacks more slowly just make DVS a straight up better option.

All that being said, I think I would agree with an increase to the poison chance for DVS. Poison is what makes the design of DVS as a weapon beautiful anyway, so it is a good idea to focus on that. I disagree with adding more flinching, we don't need to make it easier to use. Instead, a more simple option that will accomplish a lot more is a base damage buff. It won't need much to rival "top tier" damage options, but we might want to also consider meeting halfway (a combined slight nerf to OP weapons and a slight/moderate buff to weaker weapons). I like the idea of giving some weapons a defense debuff to their inherent monster bonus. I think this would make the most sense for WHB out of any weapon (as in, if they decide to change some family bonuses to defense debuffs, then definitely on WHB). Alternatively I think we could also keep WHB as it is, but at least increase its speed to that of DVS.

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Antigua: Obsidian carbines poison is definitely superior to Gremlin damage bonus on sentenza...

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Flourishes: Removing the movement penalty while charging would make it a bit more mobile, which I think is fine for a fast, light sword. Sometimes I like to hold the charge for a short duration in between regular attacks (to move in between attacks), not having the movement penalty would allow more dodging that way.

As for the status flourishes, I think they were kept weak in terms of status because of lockdown? I'm not sure if Lockdown should still be a factor when considering balancing the game. It should probably still be kept in mind, but I think buffing the statuses is probably not a big problem.

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CIV/Amputator: As I said with WHB, I think I like your idea of doing a defense debuff instead of inherent monster bonuses.

Bild des Benutzers Elegies
Elegies
Gome, I love your ideas for

Gome, I love your ideas for the most part.

All I'd really say is that you can sign me up for Team Balancing-Around-Lockdown-Is-An-Exceptionally-Bad-Idea.

There's just no point. It's a tiny stale subset of the game.

I'd almost rather see the devs enforce pre-made gear sets in LD to create a paper-rock-scissors situation and set the pvpers loose with that so that the main aspects of SK, the pve content, could finally move onward and get the balancing/tuning it deserves.

Every online game, with no exceptions, ends up making everyone unhappy when they try to balance PVE and PVP around each other. It's better to choose one or the other and openly admit that the non-chosen mode is "just in there for fun."

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Hatn
:v

Nice suggestions.

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Fishysh
Antiguas and supernova

@Zincamania-Forum WHB flinches on every hit of the charge attack, incase you forgot.

Antiguas already outamage blasters if you cannot weapon switch. I don't think they should be touched at all.

Supernova damage is already great at is. The aoe of the gun allows you to hit multiple enemies at a time, and its not too uncommon for you to hit two different enemy families at a time. Unknown passage is a good example. If supernova is already doing enough damage to hit flinch thresholds on every enemy, why buff it.

Plague needle also only deals moderate poison on its basic attacks. I dont think its damage should be touched, but instead, make the poison strong on the the attack and the charge.

I also disagree with pepperbox being increased in damage. Like with supernova, you can hit multiple enemy type with the charge. Not to mention pepperbox damage is insane due to it being an autogun. A change Id rather like to see is a pure normal damage pepperboxvbeing introduced. Then, it has the excuse to recieve bonus damage.

Shock sounds good on tortogun charges, and fits with how the tortodrones use it themselves, but the knockback is good because it bounces enemies inbetween the shards (this would be better if there were no tinks). Enemies pathing around the shards is okay, because half of the skill expression with fists is using knockback to get enemies into the shards. Perhaps they should stay in the ground longer? As a solo player, it can sometimes be hard to get into the proper position to apply knockback if the shards only last for a split second. In teams though, using knockback can help out the fists tremendously.

If the turbillion charge sucks enemies in, what star of suction bomb would it be equivalent to? Also, if it does suck in enemies, the tornado should move slower and be much larger.

Bild des Benutzers Gome-Xyz
Gome-Xyz
Thanks everyone

I've been keeping an eye on the replies for a little while. Here's my thoughts on the replies.

@Zinca

The problem with Strikers currently is that it is often easy to put yourself in danger by using them, more so without ASI, there isn't much point in completing combos because you will take the hit 9 times out of 10. This counter intuitive especially when you consider that the weapon is fast but relatively weak in terms of damage as a trade off, and you want to try and get as many hits in as possible, but it typically isn't a great idea unless you have high ASI.

I agree and disagree with what you said on the Obsidian Carbine. The poison is better than the gremlin damage, if you factor in the damage maximum from the Black Kat set, but for argument sake, let's ignore it exists. How often does the poison proc? I don't think it procs enough to make it a fair trade in terms weapon balancing, hence why I suggested the chance on basic hits should be bumped up. Even as I was writing this I jumped into a training hall and spammed shots at the bags for a few minutes, I only saw two poison procs.
This does remind me that I forgot to add in another change to the Antiguas, so I will edit it in shortly with a note.

I do like your idea on removing the movement speed penalty while charging, I believe I'll add that to the post.

@Elegies

Thanks a ton. I also share the sentiment that balancing around PvP shouldn't be done, perhaps maybe as an afterthought if it's insisted that it needs to be balanced, consider balance afterwards.

@ Hatn

(Hatn has not edited his post so there is nothing to reply to yet)

@Fish

I forgot about Antiguas doing more DPS than blasters, however I still think there should be something to differentiate skill between users of Antiguas, perhaps as a trade off, but I've thought of a few different changes after reading Zinca's reply.

I think Supernova is too niche right now, which is a problem many normal weapons have, especially when the selling point of normal weapons are to supply general coverage. The few places you may use normal weapons are high difficulty locations such as unknown passage, but then there are other options which tend to overshadow them. This is also a problem with Pepperbox. (Also, what do you mean by pure normal damage Pepperbox, it already does normal damage, unless you mean statusless?)

Plague Needle, as I said in the original post, is a downgrade most times, the only, if not, one of the few, times, it's somewhat useful is fighting Vanaduke with a party, but oftentimes you're better off with everyone running Blitz, because the difference is negligible.

Perhaps you may be right with the keeping the knockback on the shards, as most of the weakness is due to the invinticlinks present, however should would open up for more usefulness, as it keeps enemies in the shards just that bit more longer. I think I will edit that into the original post.

Regarding Turbillion, I believe 4* vortex strength would be sufficient, and I agree with the projectile speed being slower, but it might not make sense as these changes would be applied to Winmillion and downgrades too.

Bild des Benutzers Fishysh
Fishysh
Pulsars are niche as is. I am

Pulsars are niche as is. I am pretty sure in unknown passage, switching wildfire and supernova is more dps than two wildfires due to enemy diversity.

You compare antiguas to blasters in your post, and that most players ditched their antiguas in favor of the blasters, but that isn't true. There are plenty of players who still use antiguas, and they are generally newer and/or worse players if they use them as a main source of dps. Keep in mind that using antiguas like this actually outdoes blasters if you can't switch (which these kinds of players almost 100% of the time can't do). Even with the poison from the carbine, switching a phant beats it. I seriously think antiguas are fine as is. Their main uses aren't supposed to be a main source of dps, but instead a fast clean up tool or finisher for low hp enemies. The antiguas shots travel faster than blaster. They are good weapons for newer players and worse the better you get. They aren't useless, unlike some other weapons on this list, but, generally speaking, they're not as strong as other options once you get into maximizing your gear's potential. Antiguas aren't weak in their basic attacks as everyone thinks they are. They do lack power in their charge, and you did mention that antiguas are supposed to be the mobile gun. How could you make the charge more mobile? Should power even be given to the charge, or is charge attacking the blitz's strength. If you want the torto and turb charges changed do you also think antigua charges should be changed?

If you are going to give power to antigua basics, it should involve the final bullet, the sixth one (because antigua users don't switch). Give it bonus damage, more damage the more shots of the clip were landed on the same target (kinda like sticky crossbow from EtG), make the final bullet flinch? The flinch threshold would probably only be reached of a couple shots prior had landed, so it would be okay as skill expression due to it's reliance on accuracy.

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Gome-Xyz
@Fish

I've made some new ideas with what you've said in mind, and I think the changes I've written would fit better in the game than the original ideas, which should answer your questions.

Also to note, it seems people like my bomb ideas as there havent been any qualms voiced yet. :P

Zincamania-Forum
strikers

I still believe that most of the difficulty players have with strikers is because they are not used to using them. I believe that if you force yourself to play with cutters for a while, without blaming hits/deaths on the weapon instead of yourself, you will eventually get used to them and their current flinching rate. DVS is good as it is in terms of mechanics. I do agree that an Acheron or Blitz is going to outperform it most of the time. I think the only thing DVS needs is a bit of a poison chance increase and damage increase and it would be a top tier weapon. The hits you take are mitigated by the poison you inflict, and shielding can be done really fast to block a hit as well. WHB is in a worse spot though by design, not having poison kinda hurts a striker. But the wolver bites at least look cool

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Mephisto-Philus
+1

This is what we need but I fear will never see happen, thanks for putting effort into this post and providing insight and improvements to so many weapons.

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Fehzors-Forum-Alt

People are always so keen to talk about weapon balance in the context of Spiral Knights when the developers created Spiral Knights in the context of other games around them. When the developers set out to make the game, they wanted everything to be kind of samey so that everyone would be on a level playing field. Well that's really boring and results in this thread over and over again.

"We felt a similar situation to that of Cold Iron Vanquisher, and as CIV plays a similar role to Amputator, we felt giving a Defense Down! debuff to the Amputator against slime targets would be another welcome improvement."

Say for a moment we made Amputator better against slimes than Acheron. Now Acheron is the gremlin killer and Amputator the slime killer. This is balanced, but I hesitate to say fun or interesting in the slightest. Their prospects against other enemies would differ, and one would win out and then we end up back here, theorizing in the suggestions forum.

I would like to suggest that we make them mechanically different from one another. Many people want Amputator to inflict heart attack, but keep its low damage output. Something along those lines would elevate it to being different enough and enticing enough to see play without removing destroying acheron from existence.

What I believe the game needs to accomplish a healthy balance is more mechanical freedom. If Triglav did its status on every hit, 100% of the time, it would feel like a weapon that isn't sudaruska. Owlite wand is a great example of this mechanical freedom as well. This is a big part of SK's hidden potential that we're always talking about.