Spiral Knights - Energy. Dont Do Anything Else Before You Fix It. Admins, Mods, Designers and OOO Please Read.

Energy. Dont Do Anything Else Before You Fix It. Admins, Mods, Designers and OOO Please Read.

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Vie, 10/14/2011 - 07:40

#51

Andraxcore

@Coldtart "I fail to see how

@Coldtart
"I fail to see how casual players not using up expensive server bandwidth is a flaw."

Neither do i, i dont know where you got that from.

"Money doesn't grow on trees and Spiral Knights isn't free to run."
I know. Any product is intended to fetch their makers income. However, a company cannot simply think of its own profit. In order to be competitive, it must also make its consumers happy. Now why would anyone pay 15 dollars for an extra 105 hours worth of gameplay in a browser based game that is still in need of further developing when they can pay the same amount elsewhere to have 5208 hours of complete access in a much better product?

"The fact of the matter is this is a game that is free in name only, but can be played free indefinitely if you put about a quarter the effort that most WoW players put into that game."

I suppose you mean buying ce with crowns and using ce to grind. Sure, you can play indefinitely using this method however using ce to play is impractical and much less profitable than only using mist. WoW players actually enjoy the "effort" they put into the game. They dont just grind the same thing indefinitely just to gain a fraction of the maximum profit.

"Also, re-read my post. Thirteen people complaining about energy out of many thousands of active players is a tiny minority. The forums are in no way representative of the entire playerbase; only the most vocal of it."
Those are obviously not all of the threads complaining about energy. Those are just some of the threads that are simply used to combat what you insinuated. That there aren't lots of people that make complaint threads and that i'm lying. Even though they do not represent the entire playerbase, they are still opinions of players. It doesnt mean that just because there are less people who complain about it than the people who don't complain about it that it's any less true.

"Speaking of WoW, it's a foolish comparison. You pay full price for a game and three expansions and then have to pay per month to play it and you get a really slow paced game that's designed to take full advantage of the fact that you pay for a window of opportunity to play the game."
You can download the World of Warcraft for free off their website, and you even get a free 10 day trial. After 10 days you have to start paying. How did you come to conclude that it's a really slow paced game? If you mean that it takes you really long to reach the highest levels or become "elite" that is only because the game has lots of content and the content is still being updated regularly. All other expansion packs are optional. WoW itself is a massive game even if it is only the original, unexpanded version. As all subscriber based games are defined, WoW does take advantage of the window of opportunity you pay for. However, the players are given 5208 hours to take as much advantage as they can. If you are insinuating that 105 hours you can spend anytime you want is as good as 5208 hours(even if you cannot control it), then i'll have to tell you that you're wrong. Even if you include the free mist energy, that's only 167 hours of gameplay at the maximum. Even if you can store ce and spend it at your lesiure, what good is it when you dont spend it? So the ability to spend your energy at your lesiure is not enough compensation in exchange for 5041 more hours that count downs whether you like it or not.

"You offer no concrete evidence to support your claims, just your own opinion and the opinions of other people. A large number of players play indefinitely without paying a cent of real money"
How can you offer concrete evidence when you're talking about a system? A system is intangible. You cannot provide "concrete evidence" for claims regarding an abstract idea.

I do not offer evidence, I offer facts. Facts that are derived from reasoning and common sense.
Fact: Buyers are not given enough compensation(support for this is the fact that a WoW subscription is a better deal than spending 15 dollars in SK)
Fact: You can only play for about two hours a day where you get maximum profit.
Fact: That sucks.
Fact: Casual players are less likely to buy in game currency with real money. Active players will play for much longer than 2 hours. If they want to play longer they will want to buy energy, if they do not think the game is good enough to spend money on or offers a good deal for their money, they will quit.
Fact: Players quitting is not good for Three Rings.

"Your claim that the same amount of money as you spend on a subscription game per month gives you a tiny amount of play time ignores the fact that you can obtain more CE ingame and that a T2 run (especially JK) will almost always return a profit on the CE used."
Am I supposed to say it again? Using ce to play is impractical and much less profitable than only using mist. CE grinding is what it is, unprofitable grinding. You need to invest almost as much as the profit you expect. You can do it simply to play or kill time but it is simply not as rewarding.

"Furthermore, I regularly interact with players that mainly use their mist to play the game. Contrary to what you say, it is possible to play and enjoy Spiral Knights casually."
I never said it is impossible to play and enjoy SK casualy. It is very possible to enjoy SK as a casual player. And that's the problem, it's only if you are a casual player that you will enjoy it. The game discriminates against non-casual players. And that's a bad business model for any MMOrpg. The ideal target audience are active players who are more likely to spend real money.

"From this I can only infer that this just isn't the game for you. That isn't a fault with the game, it's no different to my aversion to games like WoW; just play a game that you actually like instead of trying to tell another game's developers that their game should change to be more like your favourites."
WoW is not in my "favorites list". I have never even played it. I am simply using it as an example because it is arguably the best MMOrpg in the market. I am simply showing Three Rings that they are giving a worse deal than a Blizzard's better game. I am in no way trying to get the game developers to turn the game into something more like WoW. I am not trying to change the game. This is a problem in the game that i have come to see after playing for some time. I have gotten up to t3 as a casual player but now that I am more active, the energy system has become a bigger problem. I am just trying to show the developers what's wrong with the game. I do not want them to change it. I simply want them to fix it.

Vie, 10/14/2011 - 07:52

#52

Malhaku

Not mad at all

I guess tone doesn't come across well. Not mad, just stating that I prefer quality over quantity when it comes to content.

"In WoW a cash spender has maximum advantage over non spenders."
Seriously? This sentence makes not sense. There are zero non-spenders in Wow because you have to pay to play the game.

"Yes, I have never spent real money for virtual money. Also, I will never be spending anything on MMOrpgs. That means I'm not simply doing this for myself. I'm doing this to help Spiral Knights become balanced."
You are a giant liar. Of course you're doing this for yourself!

"Lower Energy Prices", "Increase Mist Regeneration", "Drop ME in clockworks" : All three are just so you can play longer for free.
"More CE per dollar" : More CE into the market means more CE in game which means lower CE prices. Again, about playing longer and advancing easier.

I will give you credit over the other energy thread screamers because you've obviously grasped that with out people buying CE with $$, there's no CE to buy with crowns. (Most of the threads the non-payers complain about energy prices while insulting those who have paid $$ for CE.)
But regardless, this is all about benefiting yourself and you know it.

You keep comparing this game to WoW and talking about how the WOW system is soooo much better and that spiral knights is a rip off. The real point is that if you refuse to spend any $$ on an MMORPG, then you can't play WoW... but you can play Spiral Knights.

So you can dress is up all you like, but this thread boils down to... "SK IS FREE 2 PLAY AND I DON'T GET ENOUGH PLAY FOR FREE!!" just like all of the other energy threads.

Vie, 10/14/2011 - 08:45

#53

Andraxcore

@Malhaku

@Malhaku
"Not mad, just stating that I prefer quality over quantity when it comes to content."
And what makes you insinuate that sk has more quality than WoW? WoW has been critically acclaimed and has won several awards in gaming. So you're not making a good case there. WoW gives both quality and quantity.

"You are a giant liar. Of course you're doing this for yourself!"
lol. Of course I would benefit from this as everyone will. All the players and Three Rings would benefit if the energy system was fixed. For the most part of this thread, I have been downloading Forsaken Worlds. I doubt I will be playing SK alot anymore. And by virtue of common sense, I won't be benefiting from this. So yes, i am practically not doing this for myself at all.

""Lower Energy Prices", "Increase Mist Regeneration", "Drop ME in clockworks" : All three are just so you can play longer for free.
"More CE per dollar" : More CE into the market means more CE in game which means lower CE prices. Again, about playing longer and advancing easier."
Once again for the millionth time, those are simply some ideas I thought Three Rings should consider. And it wont only benefit me. It will benefit everyone.

"I will give you credit over the other energy thread screamers because you've obviously grasped that with out people buying CE with $$, there's no CE to buy with crowns. (Most of the threads the non-payers complain about energy prices while insulting those who have paid $$ for CE.)
But regardless, this is all about benefiting yourself and you know it."
Is it so hard to believe that there are people who do things for others without them expecting anything in return? Yes it is. So why am I doing it? Boredom. Because my mist is all gone. Also I cant do much anywhere while downloading.

"You keep comparing this game to WoW and talking about how the WOW system is soooo much better and that spiral knights is a rip off. The real point is that if you refuse to spend any $$ on an MMORPG, then you can't play WoW... but you can play Spiral Knights."
Why is a bad thing to compare WoW with SK? I only chose WoW simply because it's arguably one of best MMOrpgs.Yes, it is as you say soooo much better. I do refuse to spend any money on an MMORPG yes. WoW and SK are not my only options.

Vie, 10/14/2011 - 08:55

#54

Andraxcore

Also whether or not I am

Also whether or not I am doing this for myself is irrelevant. Even if I was, it wouldnt make my arguments any less true.

Vie, 10/14/2011 - 09:34

#55

Malhaku

You're an idiot

My comment about quality over quantity had nothing to do with your wow comments. I was simply responding to your use of the word "rushed". Rushed usually means thrown together quickly and of low quality.

But you want to make a comparison... fine. According to Wikipedia, Three Rings Design has roughly 40 employees. How many do you think Blizzard has? Of course blizzard can create content faster because it's a massive company with piles of resources and capital at their disposal.

As for experience, unlike you I have played WoW. I played for over two years. It's a fine game with some great stuff. It also has a bunch of over-repetitive filler. "To get item X, go to jungle and kill 300 tigers to get 10 items that I need. No, these tigers will not be a challenge or fun. Yes, you need this item." It's not as better than SK as you think. (And SK is an award winner as well, doof.)

"Is it so hard to believe that there are people who do things for others without them expecting anything in return?"
What are you doing for anyone without expecting anything in return??? You give nothing and expect MORE game in return (whether you drop SK to play forsaken worlds or not, you still are expecting it as part of the game.) You spew out the same ideas that are in a zillion other threads and use the "Other people complain too" argument as your big cornerstone of why the system is broken. Just because there are other entitled folks that feel they deserve more free stuff than the free stuff they're already getting doesn't mean things are broken.

"Fact: Buyers are not given enough compensation(support for this is the fact that a WoW subscription is a better deal than spending 15 dollars in SK)"
I'm a buyer and I feel I've been given enough compensation for my purchases. Would it be gravy if I had gotten more? Sure. But if I felt it was a rip-off, I wouldn't have spent the money! And how do you know it's a fact since you yourself are not a buyer.

"Fact: You can only play for about two hours a day where you get maximum profit."
Maximum profit as per crowns buying CE as a completely free to play user. Oh you poor thing.

"Fact: That sucks."
Sucks that you get to play a fun game for 2 hours a day for free.

"Fact: Casual players are less likely to buy in game currency with real money. Active players will play for much longer than 2 hours. If they want to play longer they will want to buy energy, if they do not think the game is good enough to spend money on or offers a good deal for their money, they will quit."
I am a casual player and I buy CE with real money. I rarely play more than 2 hours a day. I bought CE with $$ so that I didn't have to grind for the crowns to by crafting CE and since CE only originates from paying anyway. Also, I really like the game and want to support the company.

"Fact: Players quitting is not good for Three Rings." It sounds like you're threatening to quit. So they're losing a person that will NEVER support the game financially and more bandwidth will be available for everyone else. How is this not good for the game? If an actual consumer were to quit, then yes it is not good, but freeloaders don't affect Three Rings.... Yet they still make the game available for F2P.... Those BASTARDS!!!! Darn them for not releasing more content in the free game that I play for free and yet still [tart] about it!!!

Vie, 10/14/2011 - 09:47

#56

Andraxcore

Night

I dont like being called an idiot by a guy that barely knows me over the internet(i prefer being called an idiot face to face) however your comment will have to wait till tomorrow. Good night :)

Vie, 10/14/2011 - 16:02

#57

Starlinvf

You had no problems with me

You had no problems with me calling you an idiot several posts ago, and I don't even care who you are.

Vie, 10/14/2011 - 16:52

#58

Coldtart

You're being called an idiot

You're being called an idiot because you expect us to accept your opinion as incontrovertable fact. The gameplay of WoW is built on padding and statistics, not skill, which is objectively shallower gameplay than what you get in Spiral Knights.

The argument that grinding with CE is less efficient is wrong as well. If you play on mist only you'll get 8-12k cr per day. If you then use CE as well you can get at least 20k by only doubling your play time per day. Two T2 runs takes 160 energy, meaning you can complete both runs using only 60 CE while getting enough cr to buy about 300 CE back. That's a huge increase from what you get using mist alone.

You still don't understand what I mean when I say referring to other CE complaint threads is not support for your argument. Even if you add up every person that has ever complained about CE on the forums it would still be a drop in the ocean compared to the number of players that do not complain. Furthermore, in every CE complaint thread it's usually one or two people complaining against everyone else in the thread. Every one of those threads, this one included, demonstrates that CE complainers are the minority. Eventually the complainer either accept that the system works or accepts that Spiral Knights isn't the game for them, which is no skin off their necks because they didn't have to spend a cent to find that out.

Claiming the game can only be enjoyed casually could not be more wrong. I, and all of my guildmates, play when I want and as much as I want. The system makes that possible without spending real money, which is infinitely more than what you get for no money in any subscription based MMO.

What you are trying to do in this thread is tell everyone that a fully functional system is broken despite all the evidence to the contrary. Some people are playing using mist only, some people are buy CE ingame as they need it, some people are buying CE with real money when they need it and some people are buy CE to sell it ingame. The economy created by these four types of players is more or less stable to boot. If this system was broken as you say, there would be evidence of it.

The only thing you can accuse Spiral Knights of is being newbie-unfriendly, which is still not a strong argument because of the fact that every other MMO is newbie-unfriendly as well.

Vie, 10/14/2011 - 19:07

#59

Andraxcore

@Malhaku"My comment about

@Malhaku
"My comment about quality over quantity had nothing to do with your wow comments. I was simply responding to your use of the word "rushed". Rushed usually means thrown together quickly and of low quality."

Lol don't expect me to remember a single conversation in this thread. So yes, I did make a mistake there. But to be fair, I didnt know what you were talking about and it does seem like you were on the topic of WoW. And how was that comment "rushed" as you defined it? Did you time how long it took me to write it or measure its quality with a commentqualitymometer? I think not.

"But you want to make a comparison... fine. According to Wikipedia, Three Rings Design has roughly 40 employees. How many do you think Blizzard has? Of course blizzard can create content faster because it's a massive company with piles of resources and capital at their disposal."

Is that an excuse? So what if Three Rings only has 40 employees? Does having less employees make the game better in any way? I think not.

"As for experience, unlike you I have played WoW. I played for over two years. It's a fine game with some great stuff. It also has a bunch of over-repetitive filler. "To get item X, go to jungle and kill 300 tigers to get 10 items that I need. No, these tigers will not be a challenge or fun. Yes, you need this item." It's not as better than SK as you think. (And SK is an award winner as well, doof.)"
Ah, this makes me nostalgic. "Does that virtual claim come with a virtual diploma?" How fun. I did some research since I obviously dont know anything about WoW on my own. There are no quests to get "item X" where you have to kill "300 tigers to get 10 items" that you need. Not even just tigers, the whole tiger "family" and their relatives. For a WoW player that has played for two years you would think you'd actually know such things. And don't say you were just saying something generic because you said "No, these tigers will not be a challenge or fun", quite specific there. Here check the tiger quests for yourself. Search for a quest that fits your description too, be my guest. http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Tiger_Mastery http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Tiger_Mastery_(2) http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Tiger_Mastery_(3) http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Tiger_Mastery_(4) http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Panther_Mastery http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Panther_Mastery_(2) http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Panther_Mastery_(3) http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Panther_Mastery_(4) The maximum that they require you is 10 kills or a single item.

""Is it so hard to believe that there are people who do things for others without them expecting anything in return?"
What are you doing for anyone without expecting anything in return???
Let's pull up the comment you are talking about; "Is it so hard to believe that there are people who do things for others without them expecting anything in return? Yes it is. So why am I doing it? Boredom. Because my mist is all gone. Also I cant do much anywhere while downloading."

Lol. Now that's just dumb, the next sentence clearly states; "Yes it is". Which, if in case you can't use your common sense, means I don't think anyone does anything without expecting something in return. I'm not even close to the topic of SK being free to play.

"You give nothing and expect MORE game in return (whether you drop SK to play forsaken worlds or not, you still are expecting it as part of the game.)"
Why is this discussion becoming increasingly personal? This is not about me lol. Funny thing about arguements is that you cant discredit arguements them by making the arguer look bad. Doing it is a fallacy. However, If you want me to defend myself, I will indulge you. I do not spend anything yes. Spiral Knights is advertised as a free to play game. SK is not the only free to play game out there, not even the best. It cannot demand too much while still being a game that is still under construction. A game cannot discriminate against non-casual players and not even give ce buyers a proper payout.

"You spew out the same ideas that are in a zillion other threads and use the "Other people complain too" argument as your big cornerstone of why the system is broken. Just because there are other entitled folks that feel they deserve more free stuff than the free stuff they're already getting doesn't mean things are broken."
Lol. It's not because other people also complain that the system is broken, that's just bad reasoning. But people complaining is a very clear indication that there is a problem. Having the same idea with a "zillion" other people does not make the idea any less of a good idea. I have played SK for months as a casual player and yes, it does work for casual players. But the system is no good for active players and generally any non-casual player. That is not what I think simply because other people think so. On the contrary, I thought of pretty much all of those ideas on my own. I was not influenced by other people at all as you like to think.

"I'm a buyer and I feel I've been given enough compensation for my purchases. Would it be gravy if I had gotten more? Sure. But if I felt it was a rip-off, I wouldn't have spent the money! And how do you know it's a fact since you yourself are not a buyer."
Well yes you're a buyer but not a very smart one. I dont need to buy CE to know what's a good deal and what's a better deal. If i could spend 15 dollars in arguably the one best MMOrpgs out there for 5802 hours worth of gameplay then why would I spend 15 dollars on an under construction browser based game for only 105 hours worth of energy, even if you insist on adding mist to the equation that's 167 hours. No way I would in my right mind take the SK deal.

"Maximum profit as per crowns buying CE as a completely free to play user. Oh you poor thing."
Sorry what does as per mean lol.

"Sucks that you get to play a fun game for 2 hours a day for free. "
Aww, it's adorable when you try to assume what I think. Sucks that you get to play a game that gets increasingly repetitive and lacking of content for only two hours a day.

"I am a casual player and I buy CE with real money. I rarely play more than 2 hours a day. I bought CE with $$ so that I didn't have to grind for the crowns to by crafting CE and since CE only originates from paying anyway. Also, I really like the game and want to support the company."
Sure and in the process you're using your parent's hard earned money or though seemingly unlikely, your own hard earned money for a game you can play for free anyway. If you do play for only 2 hours a day anyway then what's the point in buying ce "so that (you) didnt have to grind for crowns to by crafting CE and since CE only originates from paying anyway". Again not very smart.

""Fact: Players quitting is not good for Three Rings." It sounds like you're threatening to quit. So they're losing a person that will NEVER support the game financially and more bandwidth will be available for everyone else. How is this not good for the game? If an actual consumer were to quit, then yes it is not good, but freeloaders don't affect Three Rings.... Yet they still make the game available for F2P.... Those BASTARDS!!!! Darn them for not releasing more content in the free game that I play for free and yet still [tart] about it!!!"
Lol. You're funny. I never threatened to quit. And I probably wont quit, want proof? Here you go; I am not threatening to quit. Just because you would do something as pathetic as that doesnt mean I would.

"You're an idiot"
If there is a quality I despise more than idiocy and dishonesty or anything else, it's hypocrisy. If you're gonna call me a liar you better not openly attempt to lie to me in the same thread. If you're gonna call me an idiot you better not attempt to do something as idiotic as make a claim based on a lie taking advantage on my lack of knowledge. Whether I am an idiot or not is not for me to say, however i can safely say one thing, I am much less of an idiot than you are.

Vie, 10/14/2011 - 20:33

#60

Starlinvf

I can't even make sense of

I can't even make sense of what your trying argue anymore. Its a combination hypocritical accusation, over simplifying of information, some mocking, and a 2 paragraph tangent about tigers quests in response to what was obviously a generic example.

Theres no point in discussing anything with you anymore, not because your right, but because all your doing now is try and redirect the discussion away from your losing arguments, using straw man arguments, and trying to dismiss others using the same tactics you accuse them of.... again making you a hypocrite.

So to sum up everything so we can move on with our lives.

You don't agree with the energy system
Some people don't agree with you
No argument presented will change your mind
Your not planning on buying CE
And you have no plans of quitting

And if you think I'm simply trying to do dismiss the thread.... I simply believe this is becoming a source of pointless frustration, both parties are not going to be swayed by the other, and that no amount of further discussion will make any progress in terms of debate.

Vie, 10/14/2011 - 23:59

#61

Andraxcore

@Starlinvf "You had no

@Starlinvf "You had no problems with me calling you an idiot several posts ago, and I don't even care who you are."
Regardless whether i said so or not, I dont like being called an idiot by a guy that barely knows me over the internet.

@Coldtart "You're being called an idiot because you expect us to accept your opinion as incontrovertable fact. The gameplay of WoW is built on padding and statistics, not skill, which is objectively shallower gameplay than what you get in Spiral Knights."
I do not expect you to believe it. I am simply stating what I have come to realise regarding what I belive is the problem in spiral knigths. It is an opinion, however it is not meaningless only because it is an opinion. If you do not want to belive me, that's fine with me, I never tried to convince you to belive something that is contrary to your belief. You will not, however, make me believe that there is nothing wrong with the game. But you are welcome to try.

"The argument that grinding with CE is less efficient is wrong as well. If you play on mist only you'll get 8-12k cr per day. If you then use CE as well you can get at least 20k by only doubling your play time per day. Two T2 runs takes 160 energy, meaning you can complete both runs using only 60 CE while getting enough cr to buy about 300 CE back. That's a huge increase from what you get using mist alone."
I'll try some of using your own medicine on you then. Can you give concrete evidence for these tangible claims? Your claims that you can gain more than 8k. 8k is possible but it is very rare to gain more than 8k. I don't know if you have heard but even jk runs have been nerfed to give just as much as other t2 runs. If you dont believe me you're welcome to try it for yourself. Personally I can average around 6-8k in tier two. Barely a profitable when you use 6k to buy ce.

"You still don't understand what I mean when I say referring to other CE complaint threads is not support for your argument. Even if you add up every person that has ever complained about CE on the forums it would still be a drop in the ocean compared to the number of players that do not complain. Furthermore, in every CE complaint thread it's usually one or two people complaining against everyone else in the thread."
lol. Not all of the players that keep quiet think the enrgy system is working well. You are saying that the voice of the minority is meaningless. That is a falacy in itself. Being a minority doesnt make their point any less true. The minority is what's left of the players who played SK and have quit because of the limiting energy system. Also, you're wrong in saying "in every CE complaint thread it's usually one or two people complaining against everyone else in the thread" for example: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/877 Here you see it being not only "one or two people complaining against everyone else in the thread" but most are actually agreeing. I'm not about to waste my time going through the rest of those threads just to prove that you are more than a little wrong. I'm satisfied simply to tell you that you're wrong.

"Every one of those threads, this one included, demonstrates that CE complainers are the minority. Eventually the complainer either accept that the system works or accepts that Spiral Knights isn't the game for them, which is no skin off their necks because they didn't have to spend a cent to find that out."
You are free to believe what you want to. I don't really care if you dont believe me. Your disbelief does not make my point any less true. You are free to try and convince me that the energy system is not flawed. If you present an arguement that completely invalidates my points then I will believe you. But until then, I will not roll over.

"What you are trying to do in this thread is tell everyone that a fully functional system is broken despite all the evidence to the contrary."
What evidence? I dont recall being presented with any solid evidence.

"Some people are playing using mist only, some people are buy CE ingame as they need it, some people are buying CE with real money when they need it and some people are buy CE to sell it ingame. The economy created by these four types of players is more or less stable to boot. If this system was broken as you say, there would be evidence of it."
Evidence: you can only play for a maximum of 2 hours. Some people who have done experiments claim that it you can play for even only an hour to 90 minuites. I'm reffering to this thread: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/13024 Evidence: there are many people complaining against it. Evidence: All reviews note that the energy is a problem in the game. You should ask me why there are only "some" players that complain about the energy system. Then I can tell you; because players who think the energy system isnt flawed dont stick around. They quit.

"The only thing you can accuse Spiral Knights of is being newbie-unfriendly, which is still not a strong argument because of the fact that every other MMO is newbie-unfriendly as well."
That's a false claim. Many if not all MMOrpgs usually have a newbie support system. And I didnt accuse them of that, you did.

Sáb, 10/15/2011 - 02:43

#62

Kwizzy

Can you give concrete

Can you give concrete evidence for these tangible claims? Your claims that you can gain more than 8k. 8k is possible but it is very rare to gain more than 8k. I don't know if you have heard but even jk runs have been nerfed to give just as much as other t2 runs. If you dont believe me you're welcome to try it for yourself. Personally I can average around 6-8k in tier two. Barely a profitable when you use 6k to buy ce.

Jelly King gate right now is 5-5.5k for levels 13-15. You can make 20k diving into Tier 3, doing Candlestick & Dark City, if you're not having terrible luck. There was a really nice gate that just closed - the old Vanaduke one - over 15k going through Tier 2.

By the way, it doesn't have to be "profitable" to have fun.
*points to gun puppy danger room*

How are crowns basically "time lol. Buying and using ce to play is impractical and much less profitable than playing only with mist.

How are crowns not time? They're not money, that's CE.

Sáb, 10/15/2011 - 04:36

#63

Orangeo

I just don't understand why

I just don't understand why you're arguing. You're creating problems that only you seem to run into. I play plenty, ussualy only on mist and 7 pvp matches.

Sáb, 10/15/2011 - 14:30

#64

Heavy-Duty

Energy costs alot

it's a luxury many people try to get. The more energy you have, the more rich you are. Want energy? Buy it and use it wisely, crowns or cash. Energy is always complained about, but it's a part of the game that gives OOO its money. Mist allows this game to be free, and so does CE buying using crowns. Work for what you want. Don't wanna work for it? Don't wanna PLAY for it? Then DON'T but don't try to undermine OOO's economy and SK's economy. If it's working for them, and people are up to 5 stars with UVS all over the place, then it's working. Not the best, but it's working, and feeds both hands that play and make it. DONT TAKE ONE SENTENCE FROM HERE TO ARGUE WITH ME! IF YOU WANT TO COUNTER ME! ARGUE AGAINST EVERYTHING SAID! They're probably trying to get this system better, but MUST benefit both OOO and the players, but OOO is trying to reel in cash for their employees, and if people don't pay, they don't get paid. It's annoying- SO WHAT!? Every boss battle is incredibly annoying. Players and beggars are incredibly annoying too! Every game has its own problems that players want to fix, but the Energy right now WILL NOT spontaneously come for no apparent reason unless as an award or over time (Mist Energy). Don't like the game system? Don't play it, and don't hurt OOO by playing the game. It's very misleading if you want the game how it is or not. If you're done playing with your daily dose of Spiral Knights, play outside.

Sáb, 10/15/2011 - 14:37

#65

Heavy-Duty

OH! And by the way... (repeat)

""What you are trying to do in this thread is tell everyone that a fully functional system is broken despite all the evidence to the contrary."
What evidence? I dont recall being presented with any solid evidence."

"Lowering energy cost fees for elevators would INFLATE Crowns4Energy prices. The more people BUY energy, the lower prices for Crowns4Energy go. With more crowns using mist energy running, Crowns4Energy would inflate BIG TIME. When they get more schemes for people to BUY energy, prices actually go down. These complaints about using too much energy when you have so little is becoming bothersome. How about go OUTSIDE sometimes. They SHOULDN'T change this, buy bring up more schemes for making people BUY energy to lower Crowns4Energy, then you have more game time. The more user-generated purchased energy there is in the SK world, the less rare energy is, the more people buy energy with real money. If you are annoyed at this, and wasted all your energy already, play in the Training Area, Lockdown, Bomberman, chat with friends, go outside, or just stop playing completely. I'm doing ABSOLUTELY fine with this method of 100 mist energy regeneration and no $$$ (almost all 4 star) and I find this Mist Energy system working great and not time consuming. In all, we should WANT SK to bring up more schemes!"

I actually see this as a pretty decent economics system...

Sáb, 10/15/2011 - 15:12

#66

Orangeo

"longest argument on a public

"longest argument on a public forum without a flame war"
Not even. I've been in a four pager, and I'm really all outa gum.

" Remember fix is different from change."
Yes, one has a positive connotation, wise cracker. So what, you want more mist? Faster mist regen? Lower elevator prices? Now you can play forever! Then everyone get's quad crowns, and CE prises quadruple. So we get to watch you comment on your new fourm; "Trade. Don't buy anything else before you fix it. Admins, Mods, Designers and OOO Please Read." You're just mad becuase you can't do what you want for free, and becuase you can't even think of any good way to get around it to boot.
"Lowering energy cost fees for elevators would INFLATE Crowns4Energy prices. The more people BUY energy, the lower prices for Crowns4Energy go."
So that means you want other people to buy energy for you? I think that kills off a good bit of possible allies, considering we all fall under the catagorie of other people.

Sáb, 10/15/2011 - 23:05

#67

Andraxcore

The Ultimatum

I'm already playing Forsaken Worlds and unfortunately(?), I cant keep replying forever. Dont be mistaken, I'm not giving up or anything. I'm gonna make it easier for you nay-sayers, all you need to do is provide solid arguments against only two claims.

1. You cannot play for any longer than 2 hours while gaining maximum profit.
2. Spending money in SK is as good as spending money in other MMOs.

If you provide unshakable arguments then I'll modestly give up and even say it in this thread. If you can't you dont even have to do anything. Good deal eh?

Dom, 10/16/2011 - 02:48

#68

Five-Hundred

Steps to success

1. You cannot play for any longer than 2 hours while gaining maximum profit.
=====================================================================

No, you cannot make infinite money. That seems to be ok with me. You're just saying you don't make as much currency/minute in this game, which is your opinion. Nobody can prove that wrong, it's what you think.

Now onto my comment about the energy system and why it's perfectly fine (I didnt see his newest reply so this was in response to taht)
======================================================================

1. Start off slow. Noobs have to be broken in! Be happy they shelved the paddle!

2. Get situated. Once you get to T2 gear and learn that Royal Jelly will make you rich, you can start saving up for your new/better gear.

3. You are now self sufficient. You can either try to upgrade your stuff, or you can play infinitely, as T2 gives you about 5/6k~ crowns, the current market price. Sell your other drops for more money or just bite the bullet. If you didn't make enough then you just weren't good enough!

4. Upgrade your gear. Once you hit 4 star you can make a profit! Get in T3 and have at it! Keep playing off of your winnings or save for your 5* and extra. Anything you want to try to get that is above 4* items are just extra. You have to do extra to get extra!

5. Get good. Learn that the best way to make money is to run vana every day twice. You spend 100-120 energy per run but you come out almost 10k richer with 5 star mats and tokens that will give you FREE 5 star weapons!

6. Get bored. Now you try for uv's, try to get a 5 star costume, try to get an armor set for every stratum, etc. You should be able to make enough by grinding nonstop to have thousands of CE without paying!

7. Quit. You got all you wanted, have all your accessories, all of your triple max uv items. You have nothing to do, no goals. Congrats, go make videos like magnus

Dom, 10/16/2011 - 03:41

#69

Tornspirit

So...

Just finished reading all the posts in this thread, so hopefully what I say is actually relevant.

@Andrax;

Two hours at maximum profit;

This game is meant for a casual audience. In order to cater to this, people who only have the two hours to play can play for their two hours at a maximum profit, then log off, OR you can purchase CE with either cash or ingame currency that someone else has bought for you. As soon as you hit T2, you instantly become self-sustainable, and that only takes 6k cr; a 2 star helm, armour and weapon, which you could possibly even get by the time your ME is depleted fully for the first time.

The point is, we aren't meant to play for more than two hours at a maximum profit in this game, because that is what the game is centred around; casual players. For them, this energy system allows them to both play for enough time each day, as well as provide a barrier for other players so that while they do still gain more cr and ce, they do it at a decelerated rate, or they pay. You're arguing the wrong thing.

Spending money in SK better than other MMO's:

Lets measure this up then. Assuming that you are going to use CE for dungeons, and using your 2 hours/100 energy rate;

$50 dollars gets you 20k CE, while 20 dollars gets you 7.5k and 5 mist tanks, essentially 8k, and this isn't counting the extra trinket and weapon slots. Both of these average out to 4k CE for 10 dollars, or 400 CE for a dollar, or 100 CE for 25 cents.

Now, 25 cents for 2 hours appears to be our base rate.

Lets move onto WoW, which has a subscription based service.

The cheapest option is around 12 dollars a month if I'm not mistaken, and this is made by subscribing for over a year or so.
Now, 12 dollars divided by 25 cents is 48, multiplied by 2 is equal to 96 hours. This means that according to our CE - WoW subscription price comparisons, you would need to play AT LEAST 96 hours of WoW each month in order for it to be worth it, equating to an average of around 3 hours and a few minutes each day.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't play that much.

Not only this, but the subscription is also the longest one, and you pay upfront for it, meaning that once it's paid, the subscription stays whether or not you actually play, whereas in SK you can choose when you want to play or not, and the CE won't disappear when you don't sign in for a while, compared to WoW. You can easily take a month break off SK and still have all your CE sitting in your account while you're gone without losing a thing; for WoW, you are losing 12 dollars worth at the very least if you do such a thing.

For me, and quite a lot of other people, SK offers the better value for money; not only do you get ~2 hours from every 25 cents you pay, you can choose when to spend these hours, and get MORE hours by simply playing the game. Unless you are a die-hard WoW fan playing over 21 hours a week non-stop for each week of the year, SK is simply better value for money.

Edit:

Whoops, forgot about the specials. (Battle pack at 10k CE for 25 dollars is same value as the others mentioned)

You can get four packs for the price of 3; meaning 25% off the cost if you had other people to take the pack with. That's 18.75 cents for 2 hours; 128 hours in the WoW equivalent, over four and a bit hours every day non-stop. Also, for WoW, and quite the number of other subscription MMO's out there, upfront costs apply; buying all of WoW's expansions and the base game costs $80 or so.

As for free to play MMO's, quite a number of them have the debilitating method of paying to gain in game currency, where that currency will allow you to become inherently better AT THE GAME. Sure, SK allows you to buy money, but this money goes into something which will do nothing if you aren't good at the game. I know someone in FW who spent over 100 dollars just to secure a guild base; my guild leader, and i know others in the game who have put money in as well.

Lun, 10/17/2011 - 02:12

#70

Andraxcore

@Five-Hundred"No, you cannot

@Five-Hundred
"No, you cannot make infinite money. That seems to be ok with me. You're just saying you don't make as much currency/minute in this game, which is your opinion. Nobody can prove that wrong, it's what you think."

Yes you can play as much as you want if you buy ce and use ce to grind. However that's impractical and doesnt feel rewarding, that rewarding feeling makes something worth doing and makes something feel like it's not only done for the sake of doing it. Sure you can say i'm speaking for myself but prove me wrong, doing that is like playing lockdown it's fun but it's not worth doing. And saying it cant be proved wrong because it's what I think makes no sense. If what I think is wrong then you can obviously prove it wrong.

I dont see how the rest of the post relates to the thread or how the energy system is fine. Also you have no arguement for my second point.

@Tornspirit Again with the "this is for casual players" arguement. What about the rest of the players? Ever thought about them? And you're practically saying non-casual players are only catered to if they spend money. You're saying that this is a free to play game only for casual players. You yourself said that, how do you not see how that is flawed? "This game is free to play but free to play doesn't apply to non-casual players". So non-casual players don't deserve the same luxury as casual players do? Well that's a first in the mmorpg buisiness.

Your arguement is that you have to play for 3hours and 30 minuites a day for it to be worth it? Even for casual players that wont be a big deal. I think you're under the false impression that the casual players are more likely to spend money on mmorpgs. In case you still think that ask yourself; Why would most casual players spend money on something they dont even spend alot of time on? And active players who would spend more time on games would pay more because they would spend more time on games and they would benefit more than if they werent active. 15 dollars makes 5208hours of play available in a game like WoW while 15 dollars in SK makes only 105 hours. No matter how flexible you make that 105 hours, it's impossible to make it worth it.

Lun, 10/17/2011 - 08:51

#71

Malhaku

@Andraxcore - You're still an idiot

"Your arguement is that you have to play for 3hours and 30 minuites a day for it to be worth it? Even for casual players that wont be a big deal."

You don't seem to understand the definition of a casual player. If you play the same game every day for 3.5+ hours, you are not a casual player of that game. You are an active player of that game. A Casual Player of an MMO is one who does not show up religiously every day. A casual player of an MMO is a person who's main recreational activity is not the MMO.

You're an idiot because you keep screaming a number that means absolutely nothing...5208 hours.... what is this number? 24 hours in a day times 31 days in a month = 744 hours in the longest months. And that number still means nothing because no one is going to play a game 24 hours a day every day. It's insanity.

You're an idiot for assuming that when I say I spend MY money, that I rely on my parents. I have a job, you d-bag.

You're an idiot for acting like you know more about world of warcraft than a person who played Wow for two years when you've never played. My example was a generalization of the constant grind involved in playing that game. Grinding is built into the game. You can say I'm lying about this one, but you'd be wrong.

You're an idiot for inferring from my statements that less employees makes the game better. That doesn't even make sense! Go back and read what I wrote. I am talking about quantity of content. Blizzard is massive! Of course they can release more content. As for quality, I personally believe that the content of SK is just as good. Is there as much? No, but WoW is much older and has a vaster support system. Yet I'd rather play this game over WoW. In Wow, you miss out on half the content as a casual player. You HAVE to be active to fully enjoy & experience any endgame. I prefer SK over WoW. Did I enjoy wow while I played? Yes. Were there flaws in the game? Yes. Did I continue playing WOW when it stopped being fun for me? No.

"Regardless whether i said so or not, I dont like being called an idiot by a guy that barely knows me over the internet."
So you're a hypocrite.
You don't want to be insulted, but you have no problem insulting everyone else.

Finally,
(Tornspirit, I apologize if you don't wish me speaking to your defense because I'm in a crap slinging duel with this moron. Your post was excellent, by the way.)
"Your arguement is that you have to play for 3hours and 30 minuites a day for it to be worth it?"
No, that was not his argument. His argument was that you'd have to play 3.5 hours a day for it to be a better value than SK.
He compared paying for SK vs paying for WOW. He compared the cheapest rates for both games and determined that for WOW to be a better bang for your buck, you would have to play a minimum of 3.5 hours a day. Tornspirit doesn't play for more than 3.5 hours a day. I don't play for more than 3.5 hours a day. For the two of us, SK gives us more play per dollar. You pay $0 and get to play SK at all so SK gives you infinitely more per dollar than WOW or any other subscription MMO.

Lun, 10/17/2011 - 08:59

#72

Redmania

Energy system is fine!

If anything CE prices are not high enough.
You can be self-sustaining (i.e. the crowns you make for runs costing 100 energy provide you enough crowns for you to buy another 100) from just Tier 2.
I am on a free account and the ONLY time I was energy constrained was the first two days.
Another good hint would be to ALWAYS have a reserve in case. I will, under no circumstances, drop below the market price of 100 CE. In fact, my rule is to never drop below 50000 crowns, in case there is that special recipe you need to buy from basil.

I never understood why people complain about energy day in and day out...

Mar, 04/17/2012 - 07:53

#73

Sir-Plays-Alot

LOL

I know, this probably makes me a lifeless loser, but i DO spend about 5-6 hours a day, not necessarily on one game, but on games/internet in general.
and i have to say, i am [exceedingly] tired of all these games saying "free to play" when they should say, " it free as lonng as you want to take foreeevveeeer to look decent and/or get a decent weapon, and there IS a limit to the length of time per-day you can play" im not saying its NOT free to play, just that i REALLY wish the mist would recharg faster, 1 ever 13 minutes is [undesirable]... 5 minutes is passable. so far, i havent found a SINGLE game that was truly free to play (exept CS portable on kongregate) there is allways some kind of premium membership, currency, or both. i think i got pretty far in the game in day one ( i have a brandisher lvl 2 and all my armor is lvl 8, plus alot of other lvl 8 weapons) but, that was because im familiar with these kind of games... a n00b to gaminng would probably not get ANYWHERE with the way the mist tank recharges, and how fast it is to spend it.

Mié, 04/11/2012 - 20:29

#74

Aemicus

Please... please check the

Please... please check the timestamp.

Mié, 04/11/2012 - 21:19

#75

Shue-Donnym

QQ summoar

threadcro consisting of an obscenity filled ADAMANTIUM RAEGE?

lol haha

okay I'm done extending this necro, off with you.

Mié, 04/11/2012 - 22:38

#76

Abyssal-Flamberge

Lower CE prices

Lower CE prices strategically- at least lower them for elevators so we can have a longer playtime.
Increase Mist Regeneration- Might not be a good suggestion as that would understandably decrease your sales. But still possible to. If you do, you might as well make it 100 mist per 12 hours.
Drop Mist In Clockworks- Might sound implausible or even outrageous but if you consider it, it could be a potentially good idea. I don't mean replace other potential drops with mist, I mean completely add it. Maybe in the form of blue heat or mini mist tanks. Also adding mist tanks to the prize wheel would be good.

I personally like these ideas.
1. Yeah, I can always live with suggestion 1. Since many players play Spiral Knights, maybe overcrowded, actually but we buy the name, not the product(CE), right? So in short, we buy the name of Spiral Knights and as we play it, we invite people all over the world to play.
2. Same response. Mist Regen, shorter time. 100 divided by 12... So that makes... 1 energy per 8 minutes, or is it the other way around(8 energy per 1 minute)?
3.YES! +10! Treasure Boxes or Monsters could drop their remaining life = Mist Energy. (10)

+++A

Jue, 04/12/2012 - 05:25

#77

Asukalan

Thank Spiral Knights that

Thank Spiral Knights that they limit your time playing game on mist to one session every 22 hours. It helps you eyes to not get broken too early.

But well i see actually its too late if you are so blind that you cant even notice WHEN THE DAMN TOPIC WAS LAST TIME ACTIVE.
Abyssal, i see you in another necro, its not one mistake you do it with premeditation.

Jue, 04/12/2012 - 05:31

#78

Shue-Donnym

muh

It's actually not Abyssal doing the necroing here it's that guy above the post above my other post
And yeah the system is pretty fine now doesn't matter what these guys think

Jue, 04/12/2012 - 07:53

#79

Ndognine-Forums

It's a free game, take what

It's a free game, take what you get or buy an elevator pass. Stop whining like a little girl

Jue, 04/12/2012 - 08:58

#80

Mk-Vl

Only two hours of playing

Only two hours of playing time? I can make 3kcr last at least three or four in LD/BN...

Jue, 04/12/2012 - 13:22

#81

Aemicus

EVERYONE STOP BUMPING,

EVERYONE STOP BUMPING, DAMMIT! ME INCLUDED! WTF AM I DOING?

Buscar

Energy. Dont Do Anything Else Before You Fix It. Admins, Mods, Designers and OOO Please Read.