Spiral Knights - Weapon balancing concepts.

Weapon balancing concepts.

6 respuestas [Último envío]

Vie, 08/24/2012 - 20:28

Pelakas

The recent change to shard bombs got a lot of flak from players. Everywhere on the forums there have been discussions about this, especially discussions about Nick's justification for the change, that the shard bombs were, "...functionally, not very bomb-like," and that, "...guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two." While I personally disagree with this quote, it got me thinking. Swords and guns both borrow concepts from other weapon types, but bombs now don't really do this. Examples:

-Polaris shoots bullets, but those bullets act like bombs.
-Brandish line charges produce explosions that act like bombs.
-Divine avenger charge shoots projectiles that act like a gun.
-Blitz needle is able to produce a large amount of damage in a small area, sort of like a sword swing.

It just seems to me how odd it is that swords and guns can mix the mechanics of other weapon types, but bombs as is don't have anything of the sort, shafting bombers. But it gave me an idea: what if OOO recognized that certain weapons borrowed mechanics from other weapon types, and figured that into the buffs that they could get. Here are some examples:

-Brandishes lines would still be swords and still be the same functionally, but the charge attack would be affected by bomb ctr and bomb damage buffs on the player, in addition to sword ctr and sword damage. However, the sword combo swings would not be buffed by bomb damage.
-The Divine Avenger charge attack would benefit from gun ctr and gun damage, in addition to sword ctr and sword damage, while the combo swings would only be affected by sword asi and sword damage.

In all cases where changes like this would happen, the weapon buffs would still have a max increase of six levels (from low to max). If you were wearing a brandish line, and have sword ctr med and bomb ctr med, your brandish line sword would have ctr:max (sword med + bomb med + lvl 10 med). Obviously how weapons act and what category their mechanics fall into are subjective, and these suggestions would need some tweaking. But I think that this would be an interesting change that really brings to light how intertwined the weapons of this game are, in terms of how they combine mechanics found from other weapon types.

Vie, 08/24/2012 - 20:44

Trollingyou

Would make for some crazy hybrid loadouts

I would be concerned on how powerful this could get to be. For example, one could have max bomb ctr and bomb damage, then equip their voltedge and still destroy things as if they used wolver armor. The good side is that it would encourage hybrid loadouts. the bad side is it might be OP, though hard to tell on paper.

Also, it would make certain weapons more valuable than others. I can see a lot of swords being affected by this, but not a lot of guns and none of the bombs (maybe DR?).

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the specialized armors (wolver, gunslinger, demo) will further overshadow the other armors with this. Maybe balancing of what we currently have should be done first.

Vie, 08/24/2012 - 20:52

Luguiru

Three Rings respecting bombers

Good one.

No, seriously, you are absolutely right. If one of our hybrid function weapons is not appropriate as a bomb, why should hybrid function weapons be allowed for the other two weapon types? What makes them so special other than easier use? Polaris, Brandish lines, Sealed lines, and Blitz are major targets for rebalancing not because of Lockdown, but in general combat. The part about changing what weapon specialist bonuses benefit these weapons is a weird way to approach the problem. If wearing a red hat is bad, wearing a green hat fixes it. If this makes sense to you I applaud your comprehension.

Added Divine Avenger, Gran Faust, Autoguns, and Polaris to my list of stuff to address to cook up some rebalancing. I was going to post them in here but I would end up moving it anyway. As for Brandishes, I have already rented what little mental capacity I have available to those four for now.

Vie, 08/24/2012 - 21:09

Pelakas

Replies!

My idea is just one that I haven't seen in the forums at all (or maybe because I haven't looked hard enough), but the idea is to encourage mixed loadouts. With the shard bombs change, all bomber loadouts are mostly unfeasible, but it can be argued that mixed loadouts are better than pure loadouts. This idea only encouraged mixing your weapons.

@Trollingyou
As is, certain weapons are already worth more. UV'd brandishes sell for a lot even in their 2* forms. But true, this would make brandishes valuable to more people.

As for specialist armors being made 'more' better than generic armors, I actually have a good idea on how to buff those armors. I might throw up another thread about it.

@Luguiru
I've seen that thread before, but haven't read it due to it being all novelly. But I'll give it a read, thanks!

On your other point, I do agree very much on that. It's very telling when all you see in fsc are polaris, 5* elemental brandish, divine avenger, and blitz needle. This isn't something my idea can fix, it a problem inherent with the weapons themselves that needs a separate fix.

Sáb, 08/25/2012 - 01:55

Asukalan

I dont see how Sealed Sword

I dont see how Sealed Sword lines can be 'rebalanced' before OOO will finally fix all bugs with this line

- charge explodes every time there is something behind your back (monster, blocks, rock, obstacle)
- charge completely disappears in lockdown, now matter where you are

Any rebalance/fix/nerf before fixing those bugs would be just ridiculous.

Sáb, 08/25/2012 - 02:20

Aureate

Processing Thoughts of You Always

Actually, I use Warhammer and toothpicks in FSC. I'm saving up for a DVS, too.
:B
I can see one massive problem with this: how will this affect the functionality of the Swiftstrike Buckler? It provides an ASI High bonus to both swords and guns - will this mean that my DA charge or Blitz Needle gets ASI Max! when used with it?
Because if so, that would be even more obscenely overpowering than it already is.

Sáb, 08/25/2012 - 08:21

Pelakas

@Aureate

If I were sitting in the dev chair, I would say that in the case of a DA or blitz needle, a swiftstrike would only give asi:high, and not count twice. After all, swiftstrike does say asi:high, not sword asi:high and gun asi:high. The original intention was to give bombers more choices, since in terms of dps weapons they have the fewest options. It would need more balancing though, also because everyone has their own opinion on how weapons act. The way I see it, bombers would gain the most, while swordies would gain the least.

@Asukalan
DA was my first 5* weapon and is my main weapon, I'm too familiar with this problem as well. I'm hoping OOO will fix that bug soon (along with a bunch of others).

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Weapon balancing concepts.