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On Weapon Balancing (ALL kinds of issues)

12 respuestas [Último envío]
Mar, 10/02/2012 - 19:53
Imagen de Heatsurge
Heatsurge

I've been playing this game for a long time, and have a wide variety of weapons, including all bombs (just because). I think I've posted before with specific feedback regarding certain weapons, but I feel like writing tonight about some really "broken" things I've noticed regarding weapon balancing.

Yes, that's right - I used the "b" word. Why? Because the weapons, as they currently are, are truly unbalanced and generally just messed up in all kinds of ways.

I understand the general ideas behind weapons but there are some really really clear "problems" with the game which would easily be addressed by tweaking damage numbers and enemy weaknesses.

Some weapons are truly, and I mean TRULY useless, especially normal damage weapons.

I understand normal weapons are maybe designed for newer players who haven't built up an arsenal of swords/guns/bombs with specific (elemental/shadow/piercing) damage, but what is really messed up is that I've noticed that the "normal weapon versions" are worse than neutral-type weapons, e.g. Supernova against Jellies is worse than a Polaris against Jellies. Yes, you read that right - normal damage against jellies is actually worse than elemental damage against jellies, when the numbers should be AT LEAST identical.

To make normal weapons generally not completely horrible, I have suggested it before and I'll suggest it again - they should do slightly better than the "neutral" damage - e.g. a normal damage gun/sword should do slightly more than a non-strong or non-weak weapon type: e.g. a triglav should do slightly more damage to jellies than a divine avenger, but shadow weapons against jellies should still very obviously dominate, as they do right now. If that were the case, people would actually have much more of an incentive to actually make and use normal weapons, while keeping the "specific damage" weapons considerably attractive.

Additionally, even within weapon classes, I feel like there are some truly overpowered and underpowered weapons, and some large disparities in charge usefulness.

For example, in the sword line, the brandishes' DPS is just INSANE with the charge damage AND area effect, and inflicting a status on top of that, as opposed to, for example, the hammer which "locks you down in a motion" making you vulnerable, does less damage than a brandish charge, considering the "damage line pushback," and has no status. Don't even get me started on the striker lines where the charges are just utterly useless. I also think that the flamberge and rigadoon don't cause their status often enough considering the penalty in damage they take from the final flourish and the BTB.

With guns, the polaris has spammable area effect, inflicting a status and good DPS, while its charge is completely unused. AP/Sentenza don't have hardly any area effect and in my observations the DPS is generally considerably lower than a polaris, especially against groups of enemies. The AP/Sentenza charge is never, ever used in serious combat that I've seen, and the benefit it provides (mostly the "bird") is negligible over regular shooting. Callahan/Iron Slug charge is also too penalizing (movement, "lock-down") for the little benefit it provides over regular 1-shot or 2-shotting. The only gun charge which is regularly used is the autogun lines, as well as the alchemer lines.

With bombs - oh lordy. This is probably the most "broken" area in SK. Some bombs are completely "troll," your party generally rages when you use them and they may even get you kicked from a pub party - I'm talking about the bombs which explode with a huge flash and cause huge pushbacks, i.e. the blast bomb lines. The DBB is moderately useful, although arguably you're better off with a piercing sword -_-, the dark retribution is okay but a little too nerfed in my opinion - you're DEFINITELY better off spamming acheron charges than a dark retribution. The shard bomb lines are currently a completely horrible atrocity (mostly in DPS), and the "graviton/electron" and status bombs are pretty much the best bombs you can realistically and effectively use in a party.

In summary, I feel like some weapons are "too good" while other weapons are "too bad" to be used on a daily basis or in difficult missions, and to be honest I don't like it. I'd like to be able to use an iron slug, a shard bomb, a blast bomb, a blaster, a triglav, etc. and not feel like I'm trolling both myself and my party.

I don't know why OOO is afraid of some experimentation with the damage tables in the game. I feel like the game is currently so broken, that it can't get that much worse than it currently is. Why not buff the normal weapons a little and see what happens? Why not nerf the brandishes a little and see what happens? Why not buff the blast bombs a little, make the flash less blinding, and the pushback smaller and see what happens? I don't mean completely make them useless, I mean nerf/buff a LITTLE. I also don't know if there's a "weapon time usage" system built into the game which spews out statistics. If there isn't, it might be very very beneficial to see such a system in place.

Alternatively, I feel like OOO would hugely benefit from some experienced player feedback (mature, with substantial experience in the game, e.g. 1000 hours+, completed all shadow lairs repeatedly etc.) regarding weapon balancing. I'm not asking for them to listen to me specifically, I'm asking them to listen to ALL experienced players (even if they don't listen to me individually).

I've been waiting for some substantial changes in this game for over a year now, and it just never comes. The only substantial change which I remember was buffing the brandishes which were actually decent as they were to completely OP, so now every serious player spams brandish charges against elemental-weak and shadow-weak enemies instead of the previous OP weapon - the DA. Oh yeah, and overnerfing the dark retribution 3 days after release after people started posting videos of soloing JK in 10 seconds to the point where now it's hardly ever used. And let's not forget taking the shard bombs from troll (piercing with jelly damage bonus = lol) to useless - except the RSS which went from moderately useful to useless.

Also, what's up with the 4* weapons without a 5* version? Winmillion, heavy deconstructor?! It can't be THAT difficult to design a 5* version (with a different color/range/etc. and buffed up stats) can it?

Mar, 10/02/2012 - 20:07
#1
Imagen de Addisond
Addisond
+1

I agree with the sentiment, OOO really needs to start balancing things. The "balance" way back when was barely enough :c.

And I also agree that we need somewhere where experienced players can discuss. I'm sick of seeing "lol CE sucks" threads.

Mar, 10/02/2012 - 22:23
#2
Imagen de Qwez
Qwez
+1

I don't agree with how you view the "bad" weapons... they aren't bad... just people don't know how to use them to... errr... fool around.

However I do agree that they should have some boost due to how impractical they are compared to other weapons. As long as weapons do within a deviation of 10% dps or so, it doesn't quite matter between such weapons... usually visual preference matters in equipment choice. Some mentioned equipment definitely fall outside of a comfortable deviation range. Stuff like plague needle, winmillion, BAB, Irontech Destroyer, etc. have been suggested rebalancing with attached numbers. (aka Luguiru) so there shouldn't be as much trouble in doing said changes, but I suppose OOO cares more about money, and less about balancing the game for F2P and pay players.

I believe why these changes don't occur, is that "nobody" uses them because they suck, so "nobody" complains ._.
To me at least, this sounds like the reason why nothing goes on.

EDIT: "Everyone" is a clone! (of some sorts) ie. Sealed Sword, Antigua, Wolver, Gunner, Shiver, Brandish, Blitz, Alchemer, Polaris, Final Flourish (lol almost forgot this one).

-What cutter, troika, cautery sword, wrench wand, winmillion, iron slug, deconstructor, irontech, BAB, scarlet shield, ancient set and more? People don't even know they exist ._.
ex: 5* guild member had never seen a Fearless Rigadoon until I flashed it out recently (didn't even know the name), thought it was some other weapon...

I personally believe that Dark Retribution is still really powerful, but need orb speed boost! (in return for slightly less damage)

Mar, 10/02/2012 - 23:16
#3
Imagen de Kimahsonite
Kimahsonite
+1

I sincerely hope that OOO reads this thread and decides to balance the utterly useless weapons which exist. (cutter line especially :'( )

Mié, 10/03/2012 - 02:35
#4
Imagen de Xxpapaya
Xxpapaya
The papaya agrees +1

I agree mostly with the "Normal Damage Increase" part. Honestly, there really isn't much use for carrying around a normal damage weapon, it does much lower damage even if its neutral. +1

Mié, 10/03/2012 - 04:42
#5
Imagen de El-Odio
El-Odio
+1

I think the reason they don't change anything is not that no one complains, but that they just can bother to give a damn. As you said, it's over a year by now and nothing really happend where something was supposed to happen.

Mié, 10/03/2012 - 10:46
#6
Natascha
I definitely agree that

I definitely agree that things need to be played around with a bit more! There's way too little variation in gear choices from what I see!

Mié, 10/03/2012 - 13:56
#7
Imagen de Irishespeon
Irishespeon
Er...

Not ALL normal damage weapons are useless. Have you ever used valience or neutralizer? Probably some of the best guns in the game.

Mié, 10/03/2012 - 14:08
#8
Imagen de Aureate
Aureate
Processing Thoughts of You Always

Yes, there are weapons that need balancing. How, exactly, would you go about balancing them?
This is the Suggestions forum; it isn't good enough to just complain about something and offer no solutions whatsoever.

Edit: Okay, so you want to boost Normal damage and reduce flash on Blast Bomb lines. Anything else?
You put in a complaint about Polaris; what exactly would you like to happen to it?

Jue, 11/08/2012 - 09:49
#9
Imagen de Pawsmack
Pawsmack
+1

Yeah I definitely agree, I think a wide variety of things should be more balanced so we stop seeing clones everywhere. I decided to necro this because it still matters honestly and every voice counts.

@Aureate
You know there IS another thread that tells them how to balance it... This is just getting a point out there.

Jue, 11/08/2012 - 10:11
#10
Imagen de Darkbrady
Darkbrady
I only skimmed the OP, but I

I only skimmed the OP, but I agree with most of it in concept, especially the part about normal type weapons. Got a few things I noticed, but:

The DBB is moderately useful, although arguably you're better off with a piercing sword -_-

DBB is faster against beasts than a piercing sword, especially in Wolver Dens. In Fiend lairs it's more of a toss up, but you can't knock the bomb~

I feel like the game is currently so broken, that it can't get that much worse than it currently is.

Last time someone said that, Wolvers, Zombies and Retrodes got nerfed to uselessness then the Brandishes went from being unused to the OP sword overnight.

RSS which went from moderately useful

Moderately? You clearly never used RSS enough, it was ridiculously powerful.

Jue, 11/08/2012 - 10:27
#11
Imagen de Diamondshreddie
Diamondshreddie
+9

Can I just say that you have gloriously summed up the entirety of normal damage logic theory

as I like to call it~ It is the common sense taken into account when considering a normal damage weapon. Obviously it should be like

Normal damage is to specialized damage
as Nova driver is to other drivers.

right?

I really do hope to see some big change that revolutionizes normal damage for the better.

As of now, I own:

-Triglav
-Big angry Bomb
-Deadly shard bomb
-Valiance
-Supernova
-Neutralizer

:D

Jue, 11/08/2012 - 10:56
#12
Atacii
...

Weapon balancing, like with the callahan changes that they announced...six months ago. Clearly not a priority, which is a shame, as I imagine much of the balancing could be done very easily.

I understand that having unbalanced items in a game is a valid design decision, as having too many "good" choices can be off-putting, especially to newer players, but there should at least be an attempt to balance across classes.

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