Spiral Knights - I started gunslinging, any advice?

I started gunslinging, any advice?

54 replies [Last post]

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 11:38

Irokwe

So, I was bored, and decided to make my second crafting alt be like another main. I made him a gunslinger because I bomb on my main, and swording(?) is too mainstream.

After some quick crafting on my actual crafting alt, I now have:

UPDATE:

Gunslinger set
Cryotech Alchemer MKII
Shadow Driver
[Open]
Swifty

Also:
Magnus
Blaster
Voltech Alchemer
Pepperbox (CTR low)

I usually use 2 alchs (and something else in my 3rd slot) and switch shoot with the alchs. I was wondering which paths I should take with my gear, and if CTR, ASI, or DMG would be the most useful. If there is another thread like this, please point me there. Thanks in advance.

After reading some replies, I will say I do not often spam the charge. I find the ASI useful for switch-shooting, but my main problem is deciding between ASI and DMG. Also, which path I should take (Let's assume I can use trinkets).

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 12:36

Breaker-Xd

From experience of my friends

CTR sets are great for alchemers, seeing how destructive the charges are. Also, the CTR med boost that comes from heating a gun to 10 makes it possibly easier to obtain/more effective than ASI or damage (EX: getting CTR VH and heating to 10 = CTR Max)

Trinkets for gun damage might be useful with a CTR set, since it's not terribly difficult to get a disgustingly high CTR.

If you're pursuing ASI, a swiftstrike buckler would give you ASI med, which matches a heated gun's CTR med in terms of attainability.

Damage UV's against types are probably the hardest to get correct, and might be very circumstantial in usage.

DISCLAIMER: I'm a swordie with a Kilowatt, a Voltech, and an Antigua. I may just as well have no idea what I am doing. My advice comes from observing my friend who has a CTR set run RJP in something like 9 minutes flat

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 14:03

Irokwe

hmmm

Swifty gives hi asi. Anywho, like I said, I prefer switchshooting over spamming charges, and asi seems best for that. I may get OCH on the alt for the helm, I'm staying with the gunslinger line for now though. Thanks for your advice though.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 14:10

Traevelliath

You'd be surprised how effective something like a Blackhawk or Silversix is. Silversix can be outdone by Alchemers, sometimes, but the Blackhawk is second to none for downing them pesky dodging gremlins.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 14:24

Spold

I started gunningThey're

I started gunning

They're properly called gunslingers, not gunners. I wonder if I'm the only who actually calls them gunslingers. A gunner can mean this. Some gunner definitions do have to do about using guns however they're not in the way Three Rings puts it in Spiral Knights.

Sorry if I sounded a little harsh and you might think it's a little crazy to get like this over calling a gunslinger a gunner but I'm someone who doesn't really like it when people don't call things by their proper names. I don't get as mad as much when people call Royal Jelly "Jelly King" because Royal Jelly is fictional and isn't an actual object with a real life description or definition.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Any, back on topic.

Guns are pretty fast without Attack Speed Increase and can attack good for range but they're not so strong and could use a damage bonus. Charge Time Reduction is only useful for bombs in my opinion. Because bombs can only charge and you usually don't repeat charge attacks for guns or swords.

So, I think Damage Bonus would be the best unique variant.

Here's my opinion on the unique variants useful for different types of weapons.

Bombs-Charge Time Reduction
Swords-Attack Speed Increase
Guns-Damage Bonus

That's just my opinion and my advice, you don't have to accept it though.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 14:47

Tedme

@Traeve...

I have a Black Hawk and fail with it in ld... any ideas?

What I've got is:

Gunslinger armor and helm (4*),
Blight Needle (4*),
Black Hawk (my most used weapon; 4*)

What do I do wrong?

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 14:48

Tedme

@Spold...

I am a GUNSLINGER... not a gunner.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 15:15

Irokwe

o.O

Wow epic double post.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 15:13

Tenkii

@Tedme and the Blackhawk
You're probably shooting too fast with it.
An important thing that most people don't realize is that when players get hit/interrupted, they become invincible for a little over half a second. If you attack too quickly, your second attack will have no effect. Of course, if you're just spread-shooting, feel free to shoot quickly, but once you have a single target in mind, shoot deliberately.

@Spold and the UV's
If there was an overall damage bonus UV, it would be the best.
The common choice of gear then is to get max gun damage using Shadowsun and 1 Elite Gun Damage trinket, then rely on UV or shield for ASI.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 15:17

Irokwe

Well.

I edited it a bit, I'll give the antiguas a try when I get them, is Blackhawk > Silversix for pure gunslinging?

Also Tedme, dun hijack mah thread D:

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 15:17

#10

Bluearceus

Alchemers :D

I think that the alchemers are the best guns to use. Not exactly for beginners, (like the trollaris and valiance) but people get better with practice. The best technique to use the alchemers with is to just switch the guns while spamming each to never lose time in reloading. I would have shift as my shield key so I can click and shield efficiently. :D Good luck! (I hope I'm not just repeating what someone already said. If so, I am very sorry.)

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 15:19

#11

Bluearceus

LOL

Oh wait... that was the first post. I am an idiot. Don't mind me.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 15:20

#12

Irokwe

@Arceus

That's basically what I do, yeah. I also don't really like the trollaris. I used to use it, but I find it's exactly what people hate it for.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 15:26

#13

Bluearceus

Yeah... sorry about that. I would try to direct you to my gunslinger movie, but that would be kind of weird. (p.s. I'm not really good at it) :P

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 15:35

#14

Irokwe

@Arceus

Show me? Would at least be good for laughs.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 15:47

#15

Aureate

Processing Thoughts of You Always

Guns are all reasonably good, solid choices. Not personally a fan of Cryo since I prefer Shock over Freeze status, but that's a matter of choice and if the extra crowd control works for you, then go with it. You may wish to get a Blitz for overwhelming damage purposes.
Shadowsun is probably your best option, with damage bonuses and decent defence along with poison resist; ASI is rather easier to get since it's available through UVs and Swiftstrike as well as PMoS and the other gunner equipments. The usefulness of CTR is debatable for your guns; it's a good addition for Autogun lines and most Drivers, but with the Cryo you probably won't want to charge as much, your Callahan charge will land you on your butt more often than is healthy, and Valiance's charge is pretty much identical to the standard attack but with a bit more damage and more time taken to set up. Your current loadout could do with ASI more than CTR, especially since you mention you don't like charge spamming; maxing out damage is more important than ASI, though, since that will be useful for all guns, rather than just some.

Also we have corrupted another to our sorori- our fraterni-
...The secret circle of gunslingers. Whatever.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 15:50

#16

Irokwe

@Aureate

Ok, thank you, this is almost what I was looking for. You aren't very clear about whether to get Shadowsun or (ASI set, forget what it's called. I think there are multiple ones as well :/). I will probably be getting a PMoS sometime, so I'd like to focus on the armor first, assuming I do get OCH.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 16:01

#17

Aureate

Processing Thoughts of You Always

There are three different ASI bonus sets, actually; Justifier, Deadshot, and Nameless (stun resist and piercing defence with asi med per piece; curse resist, shadow defence and asi low + universal vs. undead med per piece; freeze resist and elemental defence with asi med per piece).

I'm not such a big fan of them as I am of Shadowsun, since they all give ASI which can be obtained from other sources and their resistances aren't all that wonderful. I will admit that Deadshot is worth half a look for hybrids frequently running FSC or LoA, though, due to its universal bonus to undead. Its curse resist would probably make it more useful in UFSC, as well. Other than that, they'd probably work reasonably well when mixed and matched with Shadowsun, but I don't really like using a full set that gives ASI bonus, SS's bonus would get wasted D;

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 16:14

#18

Tedme

@Seiran...

didn't know that. ty!

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 16:15

#19

Tedme

@Odinthefather...

It's kinda my thing. =P

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 16:15

#20

Irokwe

So...

You're saying Shadowsun, for the carpet DMG?

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 16:15

#21

Irokwe

So...

You're saying Shadowsun, for the carpet DMG?

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 17:59

#22

Nergee

i'd add a firotech to that collection. u dont get the fire damage boost in fsc, but everywhere else, it is totally awesome. you can get antigua lines too, but i find them to be pretty boring to use. its just tons of mindless clicking in a general direction compared to epic weapon-swapping and status-effects with ricocheting bullets...iono maybe just a matter of taste.

i went with shadowsun myself and the damage bonus is awesome, and i think its the only armor type you really need. if youre using swiftstrike to add speed and have tons of devilites chucking chairs as they surround you is a pain to fight, so an armor that can take a few more shots is handy. from my experience, every other type of enemy attack can be easily countered by gunners except small party button rooms with devilites. if any one has any tips for soloing that, i'd be grateful to learn.

Wed, 12/26/2012 - 23:01

#23

Tedme

What I do (Nergee)...

is wippout my trusty needler and corner them. I use my shield to get them in a corner and wang em down. Yep. More LD tips, anyone?

Thu, 12/27/2012 - 03:26

#24

Fradow

So, first since it's about

So, first since it's about guns, you may want to read about cold hard maths :
- Alchemers vs Antiguas : http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/68183 long story short : even in best conditions for Antiguas, they will be outdamaged by Alchemers any day, and it becomes not even close if you start to put ricochets and alch-switching in the calculations.
- normal vs charge shots for Alchemers : http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/68414 generally, normal shots will have better results, but it's not THAT far of a gap. Really depends on how much ricochets you can lend for each.

Anyway, yes the main reason to get Shadowsun is the blanket med DMG. My favourite is to get only the armor and 2 trinkets : that way the helm is free for either PMoS, some hybrid setup (for example Divine Veil, Volcanic Demo Helm or some wolver helm), or even an ASI helm (Nameless would be my favorite, because Justifier piercing+stun is not very useful, and Deadshot med undead would go to waste, as well as have less ASI).

As for ASI vs DMG specifically, the main thing is to get used to one ASI value for Alch-Switching and stick to it. Changing ASI value is very painful since it totally change your rate of fire. I'd be inclined to get ASI : V.H and DMG : Max (PMoS, Shadowsun, swifty, 2 DMG trinkets), because overall that will lend to the highest DPS. On the other hand, if you do LD, you may want to sacrifice some DMG for some ASI, just so you can boost or cloack faster. I'm not very experienced on LD though.

Thu, 12/27/2012 - 04:45

#25

Irokwe

@Fradow

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for.

Another question:
I very much like swifty, and feel I can take it anywhere, but I need a 5* shield for one of those last missions. Should I take Defender line because it's cheap? Or some useful shield like GOwl or Skelly?

Thu, 12/27/2012 - 09:59

#26

Tiroth

...

I tend to favour either Grey Owlite or Crest of Almire myself, but I imagine you'd need something to get CoA in the first place. But yes, an Owlite or Skelly shield are better choices than the Defender line, as both are much more likely to be useful against tier three enemies. Particularly fiends, which are relatively tough for a gunslinger to deal with (no piercing Antigua line, Blitz/Plague/Callahan leave you a sitting duck).

Thu, 12/27/2012 - 10:53

#27

Fradow

I wouldn't even consider the

I wouldn't even consider the Defender Line, because it has no status resist. If you want a piercing shield, both Ironmight Plate and Royal Jelly have a stun resist as well, which can be useful at times. For a gunner, probably Royal Jelly because a bit more piercing is more important to shield Polyps projectiles (pure piercing).

But really before choosing a shield, you want to ask yourself where you'll have to use it the most, and what's the most dangerous for you. Do you have trouble against Fiends ? Go for a shadow shield (CoA, Skelly). Having trouble with constructs ? Go for GoS. Just looking for a one-size fit all 5* shield ? Go for VPS.

Also, the status resist on the chosen shield can be important, especially if you consider CoA vs Skelly : while CoA have fire and shock, which are arguably the most dangerous status, Skelly is useful for both Heart of Ice and SL Snarby, while CoA have nothing it excels to (for FSC and SL FSC, I'm a firm believer of GoS)

Thu, 12/27/2012 - 11:57

#28

Irokwe

I think you misunderstood :/

I meant I will be using Swifty in 99% of all cases, but I need a 5* shield for 5* HoH clearance. Defender was only because it's the cheapest of all. I am thinking of something with shadow defense maybe, because fiends are a bit pesky. But not unmanageable.

Thu, 12/27/2012 - 12:49

#29

Fradow

If by fiends you mean more

If by fiends you mean more specifically Heart of Ice, you could go with Dread Skelly. If it's more general, or even just for cheaper costs, I bet a CoA is the cheapest, since you have the 4* version for the equivalent of 30K.

Thu, 12/27/2012 - 14:30

#30

Irokwe

But....

I'd have to grind a lot of FSC, and doesn't the Vana mission come after the 5* HoH?

Thu, 12/27/2012 - 21:23

#31

Tedme

Uh...

for those who here before Rank Missions, Vanaduke is in the Arcade too, bub. Just saying.

Though still...

One does not simply abolish the Rank Missions.

Thu, 12/27/2012 - 22:01

#32

Traevelliath

@Fradow I just noticed... you didn't use the Alchemer normal shot damage... you used the charge shot... Yes this is the wrong thread, but I don't feel like reviving an old thread.

"According the wiki, for no DMG bonus :
AP get 6 shots per combo at a max of 143 damage on undeads on last depth.
Nova Driver get 2 shots per combo at a max of 431 on weak target on last depth. Sadly there is no damage figure for status-inflicting on the wiki.

That makes for 24 * 6 * 143 = 20592 damage per minute for AP
Nova Driver get 32 * 2 * 431 = 27584 damage per minute. That's about 30% more than AP."

According to the wiki, it's 349 damage per shot, and 431 for the charge...

Nova Driver = 22336 which is about an 8% boost in damage to the AP, while the AP is significantly easier to use.

Fri, 12/28/2012 - 02:58

#33

Fradow

Wow, thanks Traevelliath,

Wow, thanks Traevelliath, it's weird no one noticed before such a mistake. And no it's not 349 either, it's 220, you took T2 charge shot.
32 * 2 * 220 = 14080. That's about 30% less than AP in best condition for AP. I edited and changed the wording.

Alchemers will still be largely in front once you factor ricochets, max DMG (which negates AP undead Med) and alchemer-switching.

@Odin I forgot you were going for another knight. Yes, 5* HoH is 8-2, which is before Vanaduke. That doesn't prevent you from doing Vanaduke, either by going in the arcade (who knows, you may find CoA recipe wil doing Vana) or by getting an invite.

Fri, 12/28/2012 - 10:15

#34

Traevelliath

Oh good, I'm not crazy, I'm just blind :D

I thought it was odd that the Alchemers could outdo the Antiguas in single target DPS.

Fri, 12/28/2012 - 12:23

#35

Fradow

Once you negate the undead

Once you negate the undead Med of Antiguas, by being at DMG : max (about 10% at least) and factor in Alch-switching (at least 25%), Alchemers actually outdo Antiguas in single target DPS. Without even counting internal ricochets.

Fri, 12/28/2012 - 13:13

#36

Traevelliath

I honestly aim for VH damage most of the time, which allows UV's like +dam vs Undead med and the bonuses like the AP's inheriant +dam vs Undead med to still carry over. However, this is because I tend to go hybrid a lot, with Wolver armor for the sword damage and trinkets/swifty boosting my guns.

Sat, 12/29/2012 - 17:20

#37

Irokwe

Back on topic....

Wouldn't APS be cheaper as a 5* shield? And yes, there is always the arcade. And my other main who can just start the mission >:D

/sigh

The days before missions... Missions kinda ruined the game (Yes, I still do them, and "cheat" for bosses). I guess they give people something to do, but nobody ever uses the arcade. I even forgot about it D:

Sat, 12/29/2012 - 19:31

#38

Traevelliath

It takes a while to farm FSC for 30 tokens. Your first runs are almost always the hardest, unless you get carried through. Also it's better to have a shield that you can take with you from tier 2 to tier 3, instead of working without a shield in the early parts of tier 3.

Sun, 12/30/2012 - 06:04

#39

Fradow

APS is cheap

Indeed APS would be the cheapest 5* shield if you just want a 5* shield to have the certification. On the other hand, it's not great.

Sun, 12/30/2012 - 12:32

#40

Atacii

...

I would suggest against getting a "cheap" shield just to make clearance. You may save a little time now, but you'll eventually want to have a shield for each damage type( Jelly, Skelly, and Owlite). If you can do all the danger rooms/ danger missions/ shadow lairs without a real shield, feel free to ignore my advice.

If I were to have one set without trinkets, it would either be Shadowsun(x2)/Swiftstrike + Nova/Umbra or PMoS/Shadowsun/Swiftstrike + Nova/Blitz. With trinkets, I would max DMG then ASI for swap shooting, or CTR then DMG for charge spamming.

About the swap shooting Vs. charge shooting thread linked. If you decide to read this, keep two things in mind. First, that some of the numbers on swap shooting reported are suspiciously high. And second, that the "results" of that thread are entirely dependent on assumptions made concerning how many ricochets land. So make sure you understand those assumptions as you may not agree with them...

Sun, 12/30/2012 - 16:31

#41

Etharaes

Alchemer switching with magnus

Although I have not done this myself, I have seen quite a few gunners alchemer switch with a callahan/mega magnus/magnus. It seems to be the same if you don't factor ricochets from the alchemers.

Sun, 12/30/2012 - 17:21

#42

Irokwe

Nobody understands me D:

I do not have a problem taking Swifty to FSC/t3. I am perfectly capable of soloing FSC with Swifty (Well, I usually bomb there, and thats extremely easy. That's also why I rarely do the boss :/). My problem isn't having a paper shield, my problem is not having a 5* shield.

@Etha
I'd like to see that. I have tried it numerous times, and the delay after shooting messes me up every time. Or do you mean switching with 2 magnuses? Switching really helps with it, just not when switching it with a different weapon, at least for me. I'm also trying to get the hang of switchshooting with 2 alchemers, and a different weapon in the 3rd slot (switching only between the 2 alchs, the other weapon is for utility, KB as defense, or a toothpick in LD. Usually though, it is my magnus or my pepperbox.)

Will update the OP with my new gear.

Sun, 12/30/2012 - 17:22

#43

Irokwe

Nobody understands me D:

Will update the OP with my new gear.

Sun, 12/30/2012 - 17:23

#44

Irokwe

Nobody understands me D:

Will update the OP with my new gear.

Sun, 12/30/2012 - 17:23

#45

Irokwe

Nobody understands me D:

Will update the OP with my new gear.

Sun, 12/30/2012 - 20:27

#46

Etharaes

EPIC QUADRUPLE POST ODIN

On other news, I did mean alchemer + callahan and switching between the two, though it would probably require a slightly different rythym. I would also suggest getting a toothpick, for getting rid of those pesky dodging enemies, but if you want to purely gun that is fine.

Mon, 12/31/2012 - 11:21

#47

Fradow

Clarifications

@Atacii
"First, that some of the numbers on swap shooting reported are suspiciously high"

They are indeed high, but not unbelievable when you know a good gunner. The difference between me (about 25%, should be believable without problem) and Mohandar (way higher), is that he probably used shield-cancelling, which I'm not able to do yet. The difference between shield-cancelling and not shield-cancelling is HUGE. A gunner friend who can do it shoots faster with ASI low than me with ASI V.H. If you never saw a gunner who does it perfectly, yes it's hard to believe. Also, you may notice Mohandar said "extrapolated average", which really means : there is no way to sustain that over a long period, it's pretty much the maximum achievable. My numbers are more realistic, and can be sustained long enough.

"And second, that the "results" of that thread are entirely dependent on assumptions made concerning how many ricochets land."
Can you point at those assumptions (unless it's what I explicitly said in which case .... well, the reader gotta read) ? I made sure to list several cases and specifically compared specific cases to comment on them. The only assumptions I didn't explicitly list is : no double shoot (when you shoot in the middle of 2 targets and both get hit). If you wonder my opinion is not clear about normal vs charge shot. I find the charge to be much easier to land ricochets with (but that's up to the reader to decide the cases HE wants to compare).

@Odinthefather
Frankly, I'd just go with the cheapest, aka APS, and craft other shields as needed later.

Mon, 12/31/2012 - 11:38

#48

Atacii

...

Video of switch shooting with a Callahan and Storm Driver at Arkus( this is not mine). http://youtu.be/5CLoxbrcEwA

General T3 and FSC aren't the best criteria for deciding if you need a real shield or not, but if that's as far as you're gonna get in the game, enjoy your APS.

Mon, 12/31/2012 - 12:33

#49

Atacii

...

@Fradow
Yes, you explicitly listed your assumptions. That said, I had two problems with them.

First, the "best cases" listed were not, in fact, best cases, but notably good cases. Second, the "best case" for normal shooting assumes two out of three hits register, while the "best case" for charge shooting assumes the charge and four additional hits register out of a possible twelve. This assumption obviously favors normal shooting.

That said, the only things I would have done differently would be to include a true best case( and do away with the charge middle case), as your "best case" is a useful one, being the best one can reasonably hope for against a single target. Noting that your "best case" is now labeled "good", the numbers then would be as follows:

(method) - (worst) / (good) / (best)
normal - 15,400 / 30,800 / 46,200
charge - 9,051 / 27,531 / 64,491

I find these to be a little more honest, as normal attacks appear both more reliable and better against single targets, while charge attacks offer higher possible damage...if one can make use of all those potential ricochets.

Mon, 12/31/2012 - 20:55

#50

Bluearceus

Just got back onto forums O.o

Well then Odinthefather I just read through this whole thing again and my vid is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCBP4L-4wi0... just for the laughs >.<
Good luck with gunslinging. I'm trying to get better myself XD

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I started gunslinging, any advice?