"since you will loose half of your health when you share it"
So? There are players who could survive in a level with half of their health only. Besides, even if they die in the level and had their alt in the party, the alt could revive and revive the dead player.
It would bring back alt farming, where people with $4,000 systems and single-digit pings get the upper hand yet again.
Dib's reason is good as well.
No.
Same reason as all of them, but with an angry voice >:|
@Skyguarder
Why is everything looked in the perspective of alternative accounts? Are alternative accounts really this commonly used to find a loophole for something?
-0/+0
I honestly don't expect alts or carrying players to higher levels to be that commonly used, but it's possible so I have no rating for this.
I really miss this system, because it really emphasised the team effort and you were able to help each other out a lot. But I also see how it could be misused =/
@ Ink-Incorpprated
As someone who has 4 account and 6 knights, and used said alt accounts to alt farm FSC before the patch, I can attest that alt farming is most definitely common enough for OOO to take measures against the action. Most of my friends from the old days also had alts, and we would sometimes go in full parties 2 players and 2 alts all day long.
@Dibsville
Most of the heat/crowns from FSC is from the enemies that you need to defeat. If a player dies and doesn't get revived, then the loot won't drop=almost no loot=why would you farm this if it doesn't give good loot.
@Skyguarder
Add a new system so you can't invite/join alt accounts.
@Mushy-Bucket
Alt farming doesn't work that way, the "pick your own crowns up" thing already changed that so it's not possible anymore.
My reason to add this is because of the teams:
new player: hey, can you revive me, i'm out of sparks
vanguard player: no
....
vanguard player:ok but only for 1k crowns
yes, that's happening in sk, new players don't have that many sparks from missions(vanguard players already completed the missions, and got all of the rewards with the big update mail, but new players have almost no sparks, and some of the tier 2 mission can be hard. OOO also decided to nerf the spark drop rate, so they can't get that many sparks.
What's wrong with just starting the mission/run again once you run out of health?
That's what I have to do in another game I play. You want a continue without having to cough up all your numbers? Too bad. Learn to get better at the game. The amount of times I've heard Centennial Festival for Magical Girls is probably exceeding about 300 now.
Add a new system so you can't invite/join alt accounts.
How? This is almost impossible, I mean how do system knows which one is your alt since one account = one email.
Most of the heat/crowns from FSC is from the enemies that you need to defeat. If a player dies and doesn't get revived, then the loot won't drop=almost no loot=why would you farm this if it doesn't give good loot.
As far as I know(or maybe they change it), you can still pick up the loot but it just not visible to you. This is to prevent "omgg im deaad, nevm i reveve if fond orbz."
but new players have almost no sparks
Most of them have sparks but they don't want to use them. If some of them really don't have sparks, they can just replay the level or get better at the game to prevent dying. And let's not talk about latency issue.
OOO also decided to nerf the spark drop rate, so they can't get that many sparks.
Supply depot.
The purpose of removing health sharing revive is just not to prevent alt dragging, but other reason as well. Sorry, I have no time to write that so I just leave it here.
@Blitz
Even without alt-farming, it would bring back the old days of carrying, also:
-People would EXPECT you to revive them again, even if they SUCK and die every 3 seconds
-If you refuse to revive (waste your health) on them, then they think you're a jerk
Though there are some positives, overall I find the spark system alright. You just avoid dying. Died? Do the mission over.
?
Profit.
No, the loot despawns(it's invisible if you join a player and he already defeated some enemies), it's also client side, so if someone finds a orb, you won't find it.
I have 2 new players here who have almost no sparks
@Hexzyle
Restarting Arcade ?
@Mushy-Bucket
If you are a party leader and the other players have problems with surviving, then tell them how to get better...... if they still rage about not getting revived, then use the kick option.
Blitz, you can still restart an arcade run. The only problem would be if you are in strat 6, and you don't want to go all the way through strat 5 again, but honestly if you are going that deep you shouldn't be dying so carelessly anyway.
And this is what I say to anyone who asks me for a spark rev
"Learn to stop dying, or at the very least go back up to haven if you do die. Running out of sparks is your own damn fault, I'm not giving you any."
The same would apply to health revs for me.
In the past, they existed to negate the need to use energy to revive, but at that time loot was shared, health revives gave heat to the reviver, and other mechanisms for reviving didn't exist. Just because you're a vanguard doesn't mean you have a surplus of sparks of life. The fact that I play the game a lot and don't die often is why I have over 700 sparks, but I ran a shadow lair recently and another vanguard there had less than 10.
In short, the new system works. If you're doing poorly, there are options to make your game easier.
Add a new system so you can't invite/join alt accounts.
How? Dude, do you know of this cool thing? It's called an alternate email. Yeah, really. They exist. I have at least 7.
Oh, and you know that there's this nifty thing? It's called an Emergency Revive. Hey look, we didn't have that before. Oh look, it restores all your health to the full color! Hey, we didn't have that during half health revs! What, which do you want? Because personally I think the game's way too easy with ER's as well.
Everyone who's saying 'it'd bring back alt farming' is missing a piece of the puzzle. Since the revive changes, players that are down on the ground don't even have their loot spawned. It's pretty clumsy to have your alts in corners of the room and protect them, and even clumsier to stick them at the gear station and re-run the level three times picking up whatever dropped.
The real questions here:
-Would it make newer players more prone to begging?
-Would it make 'stingy' players seem mean?
In my experience, newbies already beg for you to spend a spark on them. It might encourage begging, but it's not like it's been done away with since Sparks came into the mix.
If you're concerned with how you appear to players who are bad at playing the game/underequipped and can't afford to pay for their mistakes, who beg for you to spend your own sparks or HP to carry them, don't be. Just think about it. Why does that matter to you?
@ Draycos
So are you saying you are for the return of the old revive system?
Honestly, it's not the alt farming that puts me off about the idea. As has been said, loot no longer drops for the downed player (but alt farming is still completely possible with this new system, albeit a bit harder so the argument still stands). It's not even how lower ranked players would start begging for carries through he tough missions without even helping a bit since they would be missing out on all the loot (but you will get those penis wads who beg non-the-less and just ruin the game for everyone else).
The main point with me is that it would make the game way too easy. Even back with the old system, recent patches were making the game much too simple and easy for my liking, and with the introduction of ERs and an nearly limitless supply of Sparks of Life for infinite revives without the need of energy, the difficulty level just dropped 2 whole stages. To have both of these systems in effect at the same time would just be unheard of, as it would be nearly impossible to die permanently on a mission/arcade run.
The only way to have health revs back is to take out the current Spark/ER system and possibly tweak the old system to suit the needs of the current game state, which is what I've been saying and wanting since this new system was first implemented.
So you say that fixing alt farming isn't possible ? I know multiple ways to make it harder, but you will never be able to completely stop it(even now, you can create a alt, complete the first level and use the free 5 sparks to revie your main account).
Check if the game is running
That's what steam already does, check if the game runs, if yes send message "game is already started" if no, then start game.
Check if the account is already logged in.
Our Sk/steam accounts work this way: There is a Steam/Sk account, in that account you can create 3 knights, so checking if this account is logged on would fix it even more.
This would fix the issue for the most part, there are still ways to get around that, but this will make it hard for the most players since you won't be able to use a alternate "main account" since the game would check if it's already started, and you can't use other pc's since you already logged on with your account.
To make this clear:
I'm not running out of sparks AND restarting the missions. My current spark count is 10(thanks to compound and apocrea)I'm also not saying that vanguards have a lot of sparks. I said that because most vanguard players were vanguard players when the update came out, so they are way skilled than the new players and got +50 sparks from the rewards. My reason to say that is because people would say"I already have 100 sparks, see it's easy to get......". No it isn't for new players.
@Masterreeve
Let's compare it to the old SK revives:
Singleplayer
Use CE
Multiplayer
HP Sharing
Use CE
New:
Singleplayer
Use Spark
Multiplayer
...
Use Spark
So you see that the hp sharing is missing at that point. Sure, sparks drop and you have 1 per level, but in total, 1 spark costs way more than a ce revive(you can probably revive like 5 or 6 times for the same price of a spark.) Dying once per level can quickly happen, and that emergency revive is good for that. Sure, it might make the game easier for us "pro skilled" vanguards, but how about giving other players the option and not simply throwing them into tier 2/3 where they will get owned in a few seconds.
Spiral Knights could need a rework for some parts(real defense system, gear balancing, ld balancing....) I'm working on that topic, and talking with some other SK users about it, so be ready for that.
nobody can use the alts of his main account like that, it auto-logs off if your knight is logged on twice.
there is this thing called "virtual machines" that is practically a computer in a computer, and that makes the "two games running" check useless.
the only thing should be IP, but for all I know SK doesn't track IPs, otherwise it could ban them.
blitz, you seem to forget the ER. ER is great for soloists, and for parties too. soloists are pretty obvious to explain. in parties, you don't have to throw away half of your health because of a stupid death; half health that you could use somewhere else. besides, health sharing gives less health than ER, unless you are wearing 2 pentas, using the sprite perk, and ancient plate.
Actually, this would really be needed sometimes, and a bit more fair than sparks of life. However, I don't think it should be allowed all the time; I'm suggesting a Transplantation Tool, whose wearer can share HP with dead, and other players can share their HP with him/her if he/she is dead.
The problem is that by now, we're stingy about revs, since nobody in their right mind will spend a spark on somebody else.
I suspect this new mindset would carry over if we used the old system. It's my health, why should I give it to you?
It goes back to, "why are you doing levels you die a lot on."
Your math is also very bad Blitz. In T3, a rev cost 10ce, then 20ce. So, since sparks only cost 20ce, that's 1.5 revs to a spark, rounded down to 1 because you can't half-rev. 6 revs in the old system in T3 would cost 1,270ce. 6 revs now cost (including ER) 100ce-worth of sparks. See the difference?
Somehow, the new system suddenly seems great, yes?
Blippy boopy doopy noggins.
~Luguiru, May 7, 2012.
Like Thunder said, there's still ways to bypass that.
Sure, sparks drop and you have 1 per level, but in total, 1 spark costs way more than a ce revive(you can probably revive like 5 or 6 times for the same price of a spark.
You have NO IDEA HOW EXPENSIVE CE REVIVES ARE, DO YOU?
Eventually, a CE revive would cost 1000 Energy. 1000. Yep.
how about giving other players the option and not simply throwing them into tier 2/3 where they will get owned in a few seconds.
How about you do some research on a topic before arguing about it.
Yea, ce revs reached 1k ce per death. Here, the most you pay is 50 ce if you're stupid enough to not have any and actually rev.
I know that 10 sparks cost 200 ce, so one costs around 20ce. I only remember a topic where someone compared the old "revive full party" to the new one with sparks, it was a lot cheaper.
Effectively, a SoL should count as TWO revives, since the ER came with it and would probably disappear with it if OOO decided to remove it. They shouldn't.
I know that 10 sparks cost 200 ce, so one costs around 20ce.
around
There's nothing AROUND about it. Each one is 20 CE from the Depot. 50 if you don't have any and die horribly and fail.
I only remember a topic where someone compared the old "revive full party" to the new one with sparks, it was a lot cheaper.
It costed 10 Energy to revive someone the first time, I think 20 the second in tier 3. Hey look that's 30 Energy for 2 rev's. A Spark is 20 for 2 (counting the ER). And look! The Energy prices for revving back then keep doubling! WOAH! THEY REACH 1000 ENERGY PER STRATUM! WOAH! Hey look Sparks still are 20 (or 50) Energy each! WOAH!
Now, I'm not a mathematician, but I think 20 is less than 1000 by "around" 980.
Maybe he'll get the point when me and Potato repeat the figures over and over.
In a nutshell: Sparks always cost 20ce (50ce if you're an unprepared idiot) + an ER, the old ce revs cost 10ce (T3) and DOUBLE until you reach the cap of 1k ce.
I only remember a topic where someone compared the old "revive full party" to the new one with sparks, it was a lot cheaper.
The first time, reviving a full party (4) cost 40ce, now, it's free (ER). The second time, it was 80ce (See that increase?), now it's 80ce. The third time it was 160ce, now it's STILL 80ce. By the 8th time, in the old system reviving those 4 people would cost FOUR THOUSAND CRYSTAL ENERGY, and in the new system, it's still 80ce; whoever made that topic you read either doesn't know how to do math, or started since the new system came out and doesn't know how annoying the old system was. May I add, sparks are generally free since you can pick them up as drops.
Thank you Mushy. Not only are Sparks cheaper than Energy revives, but they also have FREE FIRST ONES WHICH SHOULD BE ALL YOU NEED IF YOU PAY ATTENTION TO MONSTER ATTACKS.
And look at that! ER's fully restore your health to the color (red to full red, silver to full silver, gold to full gold)! WOAH! Before ER's, your health wouldn't be fully restored the next depth! You would spawn the next depth with I think 1% of your health if you were an idiot and died.
WOAH LOOK SPARKS COME FROM TREASURE BOXES ENERGY DOESN'T!
WOAH LOOK BEFORE THE ENERGY YOU USED TO REV HAD TO POWER ELEVATORS WITHOUT ELEVATOR PASSES! Huh.
WOAH LOOK BEFORE THE MAIN REASON PEOPLE DID HEALTH REVS WAS FOR THE HEAT AND NOW THE FORGE MAKES THAT WORTHLESS! WOAH!
Need I say more?
@ Sandwhich-Potato
A few things need to be clarified.
-ERs only heal up to the red bar, no matter how much max health you have. Even if you have silver-gold health, it only heals red. You would need a spark to go to full health. Granted, that's still a lot more than health revs.
-In the old system, being dead on a floor when you approach the elevator makes you revive on the next floor with exactly 3 pips of health, not 1% health. 1% would mean you would get more health if you had a lot of max health, and it just doesn't do that. Conversely, even if you were not dead and just had less than 3 pips, they would still buff you up to 3 pips. Not sure if they still do that now tho (without the ER of course, since now if you have one at the end you go up to full red bars).
-Although it is true that we no longer get heat for revving fellow players, it is not the result of the forge system. It is the fault of the instantiated loot system and the new rev system. If health revs came back, I would assume heat sharing would as well even if the forge stayed (it just would be less effective, since you can only go up a single level of heat per floor).
Not arguing against you, I just wanted to clarify those points.
I thought that if you already had silver health (like full red and one silver pip out of a max of full red and full silver, it would heal silver).
And I know that heat part, but I'm pointing out how most people rev'd for the heat, and the excess heat is kinda useless now due to the Forge.
@ Jenovasformucha
I have my own reasons for not liking the idea from Qwez, as I have stated on his thread itself. However, his idea would be countless times better than simply bringing back the old rev system.
My point is to make sk more coop.
You know that noone wants to use their sparks on other players. Half Hp reviving doesn't give infinite energy, so it still works and you need to use sparks. This can also be very risky in levels where you don't get a vitapod(for example grinchlin assault and winterfest).
I think it is fine. One other reason being, yes, I like the way we share health to ensure survival as a team, makes it more cooperative rather than what is happening right now.
Nobody in their right mind will spend a spark on somebody else. ~Mushy-Bucket Ow f***, I'm retarded :(
Thanks everybody for remembering about my Transplantation Tool...
Anyway, they really should do it, this will, yeah, make the game more cooperative and encourage players to charity things. Otherwise, they should remove that achievement.
The game is now heavily based on the fact that you CAN NOT be carried by 'higher leveled' players anymore. You have to pick up your own Crowns, you have to pick up your own heat, you can't use higher leveled equipment until you're proper rank, etc etc.
Adding this back would just add more people bringing Knights and Squires into FSC or Tier 3 and just reviving them right before the Treasure Blocks or at the end of the Elevator before the level so they can heat their stuff for free.