Gunning Update Testing Feedback: Guns

Finally guns that do damage the way guns should! I've been sad since I first started playing SK because the guns were SO ridiculously under-powered but the guns you have up on the test server are everything I ever wanted in my guns.

I've had a chance to play with all the new and most of the newly-improved guns (many of which I've never bothered with before now because I was sure they'd be useless) and I love them. I can not wait for the two new pulsar guns especially.

Love the valiance variants, especially the riftlocker. I'm so thrilled to have piercing guns that dont root you to the spot! As much as I love my Blitz, being exposed every time I fire has been a huge annoyance.

Grim Repeater is great fun too!

Not a fan on the callahans, they are my least favorite but that has more to do with the slow two-shot. Though their charge attack is very nice and almost makes up for the dismal regular attack.

I haven't had this much fun playing SK in months! Can't wait till this update goes live! :D

I have not tested these guns out too much, but I have come up with a few opinions on them. More so for particular weapon lines though.

Autoguns:

It seems like the coding for Rhendon replace the Autogun family. So now I can ran faster than Sonic by charging the most powerful weapon in the game, I can fire it twice as fast, and to top it all of, it looks like the range was increased. The Valve Blitz Needle has finally found it's way into my hands!

I haven't done much combat testing on it, so I can't say much for the damage. But wow, it is SO much faster now! I like the changes, as long it doesn't end up being twice as strong. Again, I have not done too much testing with everything yet.

Blasters:

Nice sounds, nice looks, nice utility. I can see this line as being that family that you carry around when you just need a back up gun. Actually, I think it already is exactly that. Well, now it has variety, so no harm done!

I don't know what is up with that second Gunner Valiance though. I don't like the smaller bullets and lack of knockback. The big bullets and knockback is one of the major reasons to get the Valiance. So I would not be a fan to see that as the replacement.

Once again, it seems like charging up any of these Blasters makes you run quite a lot faster.

Pulsars:

I can finally paint the planet any color I want!

In reality, these seem like really awesome guns! Like the Blaster family, nice sounds, nice looks, and nice utility. I guess we will have a weapon to spam when we go to a shock themed level now, right?

And again we have the running around at the speed of infinity for the charge attack! I'm going to assume that is the case for most guns.

Magnus Line:

Yes! My Iron Slug will finally be put to good use!

It terms of power, they still don't seem to quite match up with most other guns. But wow, that charge attack just became a REAL threat. With damage bonus maximum, I can imagine the Callahan being a weapon good for obliterating entire packs of Wolvers before they even attack. They seem to be a bit faster as well. A good upgrade here!

Antiguas:

The Gilded Griffin seems interesting. That's about all I can say for now.

Overall:

Why are we running so fast with the charge attacks? The improvements and upgrades made are great, but I honestly am getting this vibe that charging a Blitz Needle and running through a level is going to become the Number One thing to do after the update is released. Vanaduke is going to be like fighting a sleeping elephant, any and all fiends are going to get completely messed up, and wolvers... just think of the wolvers!

I think everything is looking good so far. No bugs have been detected for me. And that speed boost (I will now refer to it as the "charge-charge") is going to be too much fun if it is left in!

(By the way, Volcanic Pepperbox. That is all.)

Only thing I can see that is not 100% awesomely perfect is the Gilded Griffens damage against vana...I expected this to do more damage then the old AP but it seems to be lesser. ~Z

+1 to the new proto duelist. Giving new players more easily accessible options to try out is always a nice thing.

EDIT:
I wrote about some of the lore that I feel doesn't fit here and here.
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/100226
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/100179

If it belongs in this thread, feel free to move it.

Autogun
The changes to this gun are well done. The speed boost on the normal attack is well done. Overall I think the volcanic pepperbox is very effective now. I like the grim repeater as well.

Blaster
Have been great, now seem to be better with the new lines. I notice but the bullets are now larger in size, which I think is very neat. Instantly knowing what you're dealing with.

Antiqua
I hardly notice any changes and the gun is still underpowered compared to the rest of the guns.

The antiqua has 6 bullets, but compared to blasters (with 3 bullets) they seem to deal less damage. I'd personally up it a little.

Pulsar
I like the new pulsars, they work great. I also find it unique that the Permafroster is a shadow weapon. There is no piercing pulsar, but I guess it's only logical that there's none.

Catalyzer
I think it's a good weapon to use in parties, but not on your own. I'm not sure what to think of the explosion knockback with 2 dozen of orbs surrounding a monster. It's definitely not effective on zombies with a totem nearby.
The weapon is a good change, however.

Magnus
Absolutely wonderful, this is now my favourite gun in the game. Splitting the knockback in half and removing the trip effect was a good thing and oh man, the charge. It kind of feels like a brandish right now.
I love the winter grave. Slimes and gremlins have no chance of survival.

Alchemer
I had no success finding any change, other than the movement speed increase during charges, but I don't mind it. The weapon is pretty good already.

All in all
I am no gunner and I probably will never be one. While the buffs on the weapons are well done, it would still take me a long time to defeat a large wave of mobs with guns alone. If I'd use the guns as secondary weapon, I could really get used to them. I will still have a jolly time playing with these guns and once they're released, I'll definitely try to get a hold on some of them.

Did they take out the moving back 2 spaces after firing a charge from the Magnus gun lines or is it just that you don't 'fall' (aren't disabled for a bit) anymore?

Can GMs/Devs write up a comprehensive list of changes made to the guns? Why keep this a secret and just expect players to play/test to figure it out? This would be very helpful in making a fair comparison to the existing behavior of guns in the game.

i'm sure that when the guns are finalized, and put on the live server, there will be pages and pages of patch notes to go through. They can't really tell us now, because, in part, they are in limited beta, and also because they haven't been perfected yet.

not gonna lie the entire update is pretty good bar three things -

- To many armours!
- the last thing autoguns need is a buff!
- Iron slug line charge knockback is broken! (This is the one I am most concerned about actually)

No, the line is most definitely lacking compared to everything else, I've literally looked at handfuls of areas to find a use for the Antigua line, but everywhere it can be used, Alchemers, and soon a lot more guns, outshine it ridiculously. The only place I find it viably usable is in OCH where there are a lot of dodgy Gremlins like Stalkers and Deconstruction Zones with Thwackers...

There's a reason why any gunner worth their salt isn't using them anywhere else (except LD, where it's good for interruption) and it's clearly cause their vs. single enemy game and .vs group of enemies game are extremely poor when put against other options. With the exception of some Gremlins, you can literally wipe the floor with anything with other gun lines and now with Permafroster, oh boy, what Sentenza/OC had going for them; dealing with Gremlins (maybe not Mortafires) went up in a pitch black smoke...yeah, Antigua is party friendly and I can agree with that, but so are Alchemers and they do much more than these guns do.

Breaking blocks isn't really much of an argument, I don't think anyone could care less how fast they destroy blocks; there are heavy sword users and bombers out there as you know that slug around these things. The blast block issue is alleviated by having decent understanding of ricochets, good gunslingers are the ones that know how their weapons work. Teammates of course are suppose to be staying away from the blocks in the first place in your scenario, particularly on the edges of that room of Scarlet doing a clockwise run around the room or staying in the middle and dodging appropriately, which many players do (or I hope they do cause that's what's suppose to be done). Aggro control can easily be done with other guns and arguably just as easily since they do more damage in a shorter amount of time. Crushing weak enemies? By that do you mean using the weapon as a finisher or fighting off hoards of minis? Cause either way, many other guns will be able to do both and much more.

The most glaring issue I find is that it falls out in useful in later depths. The line is so abysmal in the hands of serious gunner that tries to kill enemies with it, that you if you try to bring Argent Peacemaker into an SL, particularly UFSC cause there's a lot of enemies, you'll want to put it back immediately and switch it out with Polaris. Even more so in a group of x4 cause even that'd be more helpful than trying to poke enemies (that are always aggroed as well) with this peashooter of a gun. I know there's a right place and time for every weapon, but the places where Antigua is suppose to shine just barely glimmers.

It needs a decent damage buff, and not even a huge amount. Seriously, something small to cut back on the number of times we have to shoot. Valiance even has "slightly" better DPS and more damage per shot against neutral enemies and knockbacks enemies too. Antigua needs something more than just more shooting speed, fast bullets, and an easy learning curve. I want it to be something more than a finisher/block breaking tool for swordies, I want it to be a weapon a gunslinger can viably use in combat like every other gun.

Hi, you didn't mention any damage buff to the magnus line, did it receive any?

When will we see the Gunner Update in the live version of the game?

The charge attack is incredibly powerful now, but the regular shots deal the same amount of damage.

OOO, please, please don't make the Pulsar line have a 2 shot clip... I can see several people suggesting it, but man, that would make a great gun sit and collect dust in my arsenal. I, personally, cannot stand 2 shot clip guns, which is why I never use my alchemers, and why I don't have magnus and such 2 shot guns.

That means keeping/reducing the fire rate the live server Pulsar line already has, otherwise it's going to be ridiculous.

Quite sure OOO is high-balling(starting off OP) the test weapons then adjusting the numbers back down so swords/bombs aren't useless.

now that the callaghan can go through (almost all) shields i noticed it may have 1 flaw. Yesterday i played Vanaduke shadow lair which is inhabited primarily by carnavons. The problem is not that the callaghan passing through shields but that it makes this Sl too easy. I'm a big fan of the new ability but maybe a patch is needed to stop it from working in SL.
this is just my view and its kinda specific so y'know, do whatever you want OOO.

@Yvanblo:

This is not about your opinions, this about balancing.
Pulsar line is too strong as it was, and as it is now on the test server.

If you feel like it should be a 3 shot weapon, then explain why, and how it would still be balanced.

Wouldn't this be considered user acceptance testing, in which case it would exactly be about our opinions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_testing

Blaster: As expected, plain old gun with a damage buff. But I guess you don't add status compensation for loss on resistant monsters anymore? Charge attack is flashy but otherwise pretty weak as usual therefore not a showcase of what effective damage should do. Elemental gun is very noisy.

Antigua: High damage bonuses brings them into line with other vs. weapons. Would prefer if built-in damage bonuses would ride on top of the player managed damage stack not in the middle, otherwise advertised feature gets negated when the player decides to boost their damage (same goes for all weapons). Same long charge attack as usual, using the Griffin charge on fiends is a very bad idea.

Autogun: Damage boost for Pepperbox and Plague very welcome, as is the increased distance for the Pepperbox. Definitely will be swapping between the Blitz and Plague due to strong competition between them. New shadow gun has knock back on charge, was hoping for shadow Needle not shadow Pepperbox so a bit disappointed. Possibly intentional to make it and Pepperbox compete, I don't know.

Magnus: Shield penetrating bugs aside, multi hit charge now establishes it as the pierce alchemer, more or less. Probably won't see an elemental version due to that very reason but I doubt it would have the stopping power needed for elemental weak monsters anyway. Freeze on the shadow version seems to work well, charge can separate a Silkwing from a Lumber which is neat.

Pulsar: Seems to have damage reduced to blaster level? If so, essentially part of the Blaster family now, therefore emphasizing function over damage output now which is good for competition. Fire will probably overtake shock in popularity. Not sure if chance of status has improved, it should be legitimately "good" otherwise shock and fire would essentially be the same gun and redundant (see flamberge-rigadoon/sudaruska-triglav). Still same old bubble blowing charge attack that pops on the first thing it hits - not very useful for what looks like a flying bomb. If I were to suggest a new charge how about a small shot that explodes to large shot on contact?

Catalyzer: Not sure how I feel about this one, takes a bit of thought to work out the pro's and cons. No longer exploding ultra strong charge orbs seems like a bit of a loss, but I guess distributing tagging over regular shots improves the success-waste ratio when it comes to hitting and missing with slow bullets. And I guess the new charge does the same damage as it ever did, but faster. If exploding 3 new orbs is on par with a single old one, I don't know, but having more orbs distributes the damage over a wider area so theres that. Exploding on any damage makes sense, if it needed the charge then there would be no reason to swap them around in the first place. I get the feeling I'm gonna be that weird guy who uses Biohazard charges, if only for the poison.

General: I get the impression that modified walk speeds and shot animations have all been relaxed for the purposes of the test, so I won't comment on them because I don't know if they are here to stay. Most, but not all of the 'wall charge bug' offenders crop up again, which is unfortunate when you consider that the new 5* gunslinger set(s) encourages you to use your charges. And again for that very reason I think there is still need for improvement on Pulsar, Antigua and possibly Blaster charges.

regarding the catalyzers, they reversed the charge and the normal shot. That also includes damage tables. Which is also why the new normal shots cannot break blocks.

Everything about the guns is pretty amazing, nothing seems particularly unbalanced. Giving the catalyzer DOUBLE explosions when hit by the cata charge shot was a great idea to balance out spamming the charges and to give a reason to use the slow shots.

The movement speed increase while shooting/reloading is so excellent. Not sure if I agree with giving the most powerful of guns like the needle guns a 100% move speed while charging.

First off i would like to say thank you for allowing us to preview the new guns and armors. I would like to say i wish the test had gone on a bit longer but it was nice to at least try out a few guns. I cant honestly say anything about the armors because i di not get a chance to use many of them. The few i did use were limited. The reason being that full time gunning any level is not very practical. Here are my reviews.

Blaster line= Finally you have made these guns more than just breaking blocks or the occasional hit back in pvp. i have always enjoyed using the vallance but the low damage it produced deterred me from bringing it along for anything but the fun of firing it. The charge is still just for amusement but i enjoyed using all of them for a secondary weapon.

Autogun line = The new grim repeater does not really have a use that i can see in the game but maybe that will come at a later time, still seems a bit under powered for pinning you to the floor for a second or 2 .Used the volcanic pepperbox and enjoyed using it but under powered like the rest.

Pulsar line= Nice addition to this line and wild fire looks promising.

Catalyzer line =this gun is still totally impractical for killing enemy's but fun to use for a few seconds and i hear in pvp it will have some use for those who like to stand away from the action and attack someone who is already engaged.

Driver line = did not get much of a chance to use any, i have used them before not practical as well for enemy killing. Has some pvp use.

That is about all i had a chance to test with. Overall it is good to see new content finally, even though the are re-colored existing weapons.I do feel gunning falls short of the mark still as a primary means of killing monsters, the dps clearly shows that but i look forward to seeing how the game progresses from here.

More thoughts.

Magnus: charge is notably strong, due to doing high damage for each multi hit. Alchemer only has one large hit and several smaller ones. Might be too strong, but if you were to retain the classic 'knocked over' charge animation as payment in order to keep it, I won't complain. Just do NOT bring back the snail pace charge walk.

Autogun: Is the knockback on Pepperbox charge or rather the lack of it on Needles an example of non-normal weapon having an extra ability in order to make up for the loss of output on resistant monsters? Shouldn't the shadow gun also be knockback less? Or maybe the Pepperbox should have it removed too? Or alternatively.. time to add knockback on the Needles?
Fast firing animation now means it functions as a proper point-n-shoot gun, lesser chance of things jumping out of the way before the bullets actually start flying.

Wall charge problem and charges in general: Is the goal to make some weapons have good regular attacks in exchange for lousy charges and vice versa? Or all are attacks and charges intended to be good? Now that the grand unified gunslinger set has been unveiled with the charge bonus as its flagship 5* stat, it would be nice to hope for buggy physics to be tightened up and under performing charges to be tweaked in order for it to fulfill its purpose across the board.

Chance of status: Didn't figure out what gun does what chance of status, but all I have to say is if there is going to be multiple copies of the same damage type weapon but with different status, then the status is what defines them from each other. If the chance of status is low (using status alchemer as a reference) then I don't think the duplicates are fulfilling their purpose and effectively redundant.

Walk speeds: Seem to walk faster while charging, not sure of the purpose of this. No speed penalty on firing most guns, possibly trying to make guns more appealing. Faster first shoot for all guns, I guess this brings them closer to swords in that swords hit instantaneously. Bombers are not going to be happy lugging around heavy snail pace bombs if a Magnus is allowed to keep its fast charge walk.

General impression of changes:
Magnus: great
Blaster: fair
autogun: good, great for the forgotten 2 lines
Pulsar: good
Cat: undecided due to complexity
Antigua: fair

dualist: if the chilling was the companion to the red saber, then I guess this is the companion to [?]. Trying to appeal to a higher speed audience? I think fast weapons work better on a control pad. Is.. is SK going to work towards Steam Big Picture?

Proto shield can't bump away shufflebots in the ATH.

Edit: Didn't really try Alchemer, would be nice if it could have a range buff like the Pepperbox did (if it didn't already). Might expose more map exploits though.

Doing Vana with Gilded Griffin reminded me of the old time when we used to do it with the Antigua line... Here's my quick review

The valiance line feel like the decent normal gun we should've had eons ago. A Brandish/status bomb equivalent is a nice touch.

Am I the only one who noticed the amazing knockback on the Grim Repeater? I simply loved it. Going to make one asap. (really, it's amazing)

I laughed so hard when I picked Permafroster (frozen pulsar) IT WORK! who'd thought? And the Wildfire is nice but kinda useless compared to the Polaris equivalent. Not much to say about this line other than Permafroster is tricky since it doesn't always freeze :\

I almost forgotten to say how much fun I had with the Winter Graves on a JK run. Didn't knew the line got a complete revamp and glad to hear.

Both Permafroster AND Winter Graves deal Shadow damage AND freeze status... Not complaining, just pointing out that both guns have the same atk roughly... which puts the Permafroster into the useless category...

I guess I can still sell my pulsar on the gunner update hype...

Edit: I'm okay with the overall update on the guns. Brandish line will still be used and status bomb are still useful so I'm happy.

@Stingz: why wouldn't you want a gun that's ridiculous? Powerful is fun, or am I the only one who enjoys watching my victims die?

@Feyi-Feyi: LD is not the only part of the game. And why bother using a test server if they are not looking for input from players? My opinion counts too. A 3 shot weapon, in this game, is one of the better options, in my opinion. With a two shot weapon it feels like such a waste of time reloading. I never use them because it just feels like so much work. I want to enjoy my games, not work to make the most out of my weapons. Don't even think about suggesting switch shooting, I won't be doing it, as it takes a lot of work to get right, and since I carry a sword gun and bomb on every run. The pulsar line of weapons is simply easier to use with 3 shot clip. A 2 shot clip just feels terrible and slow, and I personally can't stand them. I don't use ANY two shot guns.

Lastly, 'balance'. Forget about balance. Go find a new game if you want balance. Balance is having: 1 armor, 1 helmet, 1 gun, 1 sword, 1 bomb and no other options. Is that really what you want? If all weapons do exactly the same DPS, why bother having more than 1? LD should have it's own set of weapons that are pre-set by OOO. Players should not be able to bring their own gear, and then we would have this so called 'balance'. So, please, stop with the balancing act.

@Fehzor: Thank you.

You realize unbalancement creates biased weapons...? For example, only one gun would be used while the rest are never used.

'Balance' != 'Every weapon should have the same DPS'

For instance, a gun should do less DPS than a sword because a gun offers the advantage of mobility and range.

The agenda of players who are asking for balance is not to have just one of every type of equipment. In fact, that is the complete opposite of what we wish for. The game has dozens of end-game pieces of equipment, and only a handful of them are majorly used.

We wish for all of these to be perfectly valid choices for a player. This creates variety in the game, making it deeper and more interesting.

I have not played on the test server, so most of my argument is unfair, since I don't know how the new guns feel in game.

However, the problem seems to stem from LD. I don't play it, and frankly don't care about it. At all. There needs to be some sort of LD only balance solution (Blast Network anyone? Everyone has the same bomb, no? BN is COMPLETELY balanced... why is that? One weapon, one damage number, one armor, one helmet! No one has an advantage. This cannot be done when player owned weapon choice or status' are involved.), so that those who only play PvE don't get screwed out of our best weapons, just because LD fan boys can't stand being shock locked or whatever else.

If you want ALL weapons to be perfectly usable, that means ALL weapons (per class, obviously) will deal the EXACT same DPS. If they don't deal the same DPS, then they will not all be 'perfectly valid'. Why take a normal damage weapon to a shock/freeze/poison/fire fight? Seriously, if you want LD balance, everyone should use the EXACT same loadout. Then there would be NO ONE complaining that someone else has an OP weapon/armor/etc. End of story. It would then come down to 1. Skill and 2. Lag

If I could kill another player with Valiance just as fast and easily as with Polaris, why would I want anything other than Valiance? It's cheaper and MUCH easier to get. Balance is not fun. I'm sorry, it's just not. I would be seriously offended if Valiance became just as 'valid' as Polaris. Valiance is practically given to you, whereas Polaris you have to work to get. What you describe with your 'perfectly valid' weapons sounds pretty lame for anything other than PvP.

Moral of my story: PvP needs it's own set of pre-configured gear and rules.

FIRST:
if you haven't played the test server, you should not be posting in the testing forum...
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/81815

SECOND:
most of that should be in the suggestions forum

I also don't think that LD should turn into some console game like halo or cod, which i feel like you are suggesting by pre-configured gear.

In conclusion, OOO made us PvP because we asked for it a lot. I don't believe that they have done anything major with it since it came out, other than add LD. I really doubt they will start changing it now

yvanblo, please don't start a discussion like that here. if you want you can move it in general discussion, or suggestions. I have to force myself not to say what I have to say because this subforum is made for testing feedback purpouses. this was one case in which making a new thread would have been better.