Spiral Knights - Community weapon ratings

Community weapon ratings - Bombs (voting finished)

74 replies [Last post]

Mon, 09/07/2015 - 14:01

Krakob

Community weapon ratings project:
Swords - Done (results)
Bombs - Done (results)
Guns - Done (results)

--------------------------------

The voting has been concluded, you can find the results here

Continuing on the sword ratings, we now do bombs.

Rate all bombs on a scale of 1 to 5. Rating guidelines:

The item is very weak and has very few or no place where it genuinely does well.
The item is quite weak compared to others, but is very useful in some cases.
The item can hold its own, but is generally outshone by others.
The item is very strong but comes with some flaws and is not the best for all of its purposes.
The item is more or less flawless and in most cases the strongest available for its purposes.

To give a few examples of how I'd reason:

I'd rate Winmillion as 1 due to its very low damage. Although the projectile has uses its largely troublesome thanks to dodging mechanics.
I'd rate Fang of Vog as 2, as its combo is worse than Brandishes in both damage and speed. The charge is incredibly powerful for some things, but it's not very sustainable unless you have a loadout specifically designed to handle the self fire.
I'd rate Sudaruska a 3. It has very good utility and the charge has the potential to output a ton of damage but falls short on combo damage, often making Divine Avenger or Gran Faust more desirable.
I'd rate Glacius a 4. It's an incredibly powerful sword, but the Freeze hinders some damage from the charge and can be problematic if you don't interrupt monsters, which often happens in larger groups on expert.
I'd rate Final Flourish 4 as well. While its high speed and large reach is incredibly useful for fiends who are easily interrupted, it doesn't have very good damage and even though it may be the best sword for beasts, it's not really as good as Dark Briar Barrage for dealing with groups of wolvers, which are very commonly encountered in beast levels.
I'd rate Warmaster Rocket Hammer 5. While the charge is not great, the combo is insanely powerful and outdoes the elemental Brandishes significantly if used correctly.

You don't have to explain your reasoning for your votes, but try to keep these guidelines in mind. I'll refrain from being strict with how the guidelines are followed, but obvious trolls will be removed. I just don't think anyone would rate Acheron 2/5, you know.

Lastly, a few more rules:

Trying to vote multiple times by using alts is forbidden.
You need to have at least 7 5* bombs (about a third of all items voted for) and 20 5* items overall to be eligible for voting.
To verify the above rule, take a screenshot (or several if needed) to showcase said items.
If you use different names on the forums and in game, you'll need to state something like "I am Krakob-Is-Renamed on the forums and this screenshot is for the swords rating thingy" in your screenshot.
Exceptions can be made for people who wish to remain anonymous, provided they either get in touch with me (IGN: Krakob) or have a reputation of being very knowledgeable here on the forums.
Don't consider Lockdown performance when voting. We can do that on a later date, if there's enough interest.
Don't consider how easy it is to get an item when voting. Leviathan Blade isn't stronger because its recipe is free if you do missions.
Don't consider heating costs, either. Assume everything is at level 10.
Maintain the format of the template linked below, as I'll try to use automatic methods of sorting votes into a spreadsheet.

So how do you vote?

Head over here and copy the contents of the paste into a post in this thread and fill in the numbers.
Take a screenshot showcasing your items in-game and reference to your forum name if necessary. Take several screenshots if you can't fit the items into one screenie.
Upload said screenshot(s) to Steam or Imgur. Put the link at the bottom of your post.
Done!

Voting ends sometime on Monday the 21st of September. If you plan on voting, please make sure to do so no later than on the preceeding Sunday.

Thu, 09/10/2015 - 14:19

Dibsville

Oh gosh oh gosh

Ash of Agni: 4
Big Angry Bomb: 2
Dark Briar Barrage: 5
Dark Retribution: 5
Deadly Crystal Bomb: 2
Deadly Dark Matter Bomb: 1
Deadly Shard Bomb: 1
Deadly Splinter Bomb: 1
Electron Vortex: 5
Graviton Vortex: 3
Irontech Destroyer: 3
Nitronome: 4
Obsidian Crusher: 4
Scintillating Sun Shards: 2
Shivermist Buster: 4
Shocking Salt Bomb: 1
Stagger Storm: 5
Venom Veiler: 5
Voltaic Tempest: 4
Heavy Deconstructor: 1

Proof yo.

EDIT: Deadly Crystal Bomb should have been a two, not a three. I also swapped Irontech Destroyer and Big Angry Bomb's scores.
EDIT2: I feel like writing out an explanation for each one because it just feels right, and I'd like someone to point things out to me if I'm incorrect on something because regardless of how I rate bombs currently I'd love to learn new stuff and try new things with all weapons. If the list is too big or taking up too much space just tell me and I'll drop a pastebin instead.

Ash of Agni: 4 - Crowd clear to a great extent, just tacking on fire damage here and there slowly withers away enemies to great effectiveness and the bomb itself does not disrupt party-play, so it's a good balance of offense and support.

Big Angry Bomb: 2 - The monstrous knockback on this bomb is very interesting, but its slow movement speed and blast time outrageously hinder it. It deserves points due to its niche in some of the hardest areas in the game, notably Shadow Lairs or Grinchlin Assault. Not much to say here, the cons outweigh the pros like a brick outweighs a feather.

Dark Briar Barrage: 5 - I think this one should speak for itself. Dark Briar Barrage is extremely strong and since it has no knockback, soft-bodied enemies, more specifically the very ones that are weak to the bomb itself, get effectively stunlocked if you chainbomb with it; its damage output is absolutely amazing, and overall this is honestly one of the best bombs if not the best bomb in the game.

Dark Retribution: 5 - This should also speak for itself. The bomb lacks serious knockback allowing you to chain bombs together very effectively, it knocks down soft-bodied enemies such as Wolvers and Gremlins, similarly to Dark Briar Barrage, and its damage output is easily one of the highest if not the highest in the entire game. Dark Retribution has the added bonus of being a multi-hit bomb, meaning that each orb gains the percentage bonus from Bomb Damage Bonus, so it has an exponentially higher damage increase than other bombs besides shard bombs. The fact that it is so strong that it can be used freely against Fiends and Undead is actually kind of silly; in fact it's a great way to deal with Devilites because of its long-lasting effect and the fact that it does enough damage to them to stunlock them. If I'm not mistaken, Dark Retribution is the highest DPS weapon in the entire game, even higher than Blitz Needle and Grim Repeater, which in itself is already pretty silly considering how amazing the bomb is to begin with. The interesting radius provides absolute Crowd Clear because you can stack orbs on top of one another while still remaining mobile. If Dark Briar Barrage is not the best bomb, then this very easily is. Also as a side-note, I find it kind of amusing how Dark Briar Barrage is better against Gremlins than Dark Retribution is, yet Dark Retribution is better against Wolvers than Dark Briar Barrage is. Just one of those cute things.

Deadly Crystal Bomb: 2 - The only reason this gets a two is because it's the only elemental bomb that's not a mist bomb or Electron Vortex. It could be given a three just for this reason, but it is actually only useful against Undead, with every other enemy type either resisting it or having a significant amount of bombs that outclass Deadly Crystal Bomb (Dark Retribution or Nitronome against Constructs just as an example).

Deadly Dark Matter Bomb: 1 - It's a shard bomb. That alone makes it bad. The fact that Dark Retribution exists makes this bomb literally obsolete. You can joke and be dramatic about some weapons making others obsolete, but this is one case where there is literally no reason in the world to ever consider one weapon over another. Even when not being compared to other weapons, the bomb itself is pretty bad due to the nature of Gremlins, and Slimes are... I guess the bomb can be useful against Slimes? Probably not.

Deadly Shard Bomb: 1 - ...Nitronome exists-- does more damage and has similar knockback, and both bombs are blinding. I'm going to use a quote that I used for Cold Iron Vanquisher in the sword thread: "Just make {Nitronome} and forget this [redacted] even exists."

Deadly Splinter Bomb: 1 - "Just make {Dark Briar Barrage} and forget this [redacted] even exists."

Electron Vortex: 5 - A beauty of the support world, this bomb should honestly be a staple bomb in any bomber's arsenal just as much as Nitronome is. The shock allows enemies to be grouped together and stick together, which allows you to freely get hits on them during shocks or safely charge up another EV. The bomb itself also provides some pretty great damage in the form of what I like to call shock-bouncing (if an enemy is damaged by their shock, they also damage nearby enemeies... now make every enemy self-shock one-another). The elemental damage is very useful in addition to the shock, and unlike Graviton Vortex, Electron Vortex actually works on floating enemies.

Graviton Vortex: 3 - This bomb actually isn't very great. In fact, it's pretty average at best, so the three suits it. Obsidian Crusher is a direct upgrade, Electron Vortex outclasses it, and there are plenty of bombs that are better for support. This is just one of those borderline bombs that are useful because its niche is so good, but the bomb itself isn't actually good when other options exist.

Irontech Destroyer: 3 - The fact that it's a blast bomb gives it something to work with, and Stun is good although its slow speed makes it inconsistent. I honestly can't say much on this bomb other than it's a downgraded Nitronome.

Nitronome: 4 - This is the bread and butter bomb for a good reason. Its knockback allows it to play defensively and proper placement allows you to very effectively control a crowd. Its damage is pretty nice as well. Its blinding effect is definitely something to take in to account. You can be the best player in the world, but you can not win if you can not see. Overall, this bomb is a great bomb and its only drawbacks are its high knockback, which can also be considered a positive, its "okay-at-best" damage, and the fact that it is so blinding to you and other people.

Obsidian Crusher: 4 - This bomb is quite an anti-healer bomb; the poison it has allows you to group a bunch of enemies together and have them all get killed by a healer at once (vortexing enemies in the middle of a mender rune is so satisfying). Besides the anti-healer use, it also has value as a regular vortex bomb; it lets enemies off with poison which means that the random knockback of its explosion is somewhat padded by enemies doing less damage should they be knocked near you, and it allows you to wear down enemies much more quickly during a second bomb (if you even need that many). And as a side note, when paired with a shock weapon this bomb becomes significantly more potent than almost any other combinations of weapons, which is quite interesting.

Scintillating Sun Shards: 2 - Notably, this bomb does Stun damage, which is frankly just overpowered in most cases. Yes, I probably overvalue Stun, but from my experience Stun is easily the most powerful status, and anything that can use it is frankly pretty good already unless it has trouble proccing the Stun. And wouldn't you know it, this bomb suffers from that problem. Don't you just love hit limits?

Shivermist Buster: 4 - Obviously, freezing everything in place can come with both good and bad sides, and if someone has Shivermist Buster then more likely than not they're going for the good sides. It's a nice support bomb for party-play if the party centers around it and it gives breathing room in solo play, so overall it's a great support bomb for any situation (except freeze stratums obviously. You'd think this should be implied but some people will take things so far...). Its lack of damage and tendency to be very disruptive holds it back but it's still a great bomb if it's what you're centering your loadouts around.

Shocking Salt Bomb: 1 - I was on the verge of giving this a two, but I eventually went with a one. This is actually the only five-star shard bomb that I own, and from my personal experience this bomb is on the borderline between "it can sometimes work" and "this bomb is completely useless". Gremlins resist shock, so that already cuts its usefulness in half. Slimes are actually harder to fight if they're shocked, and the radius of the explosions are actually so small that it's hard to even hit some slimes. The fact that there's a hit limit cuts the other part of its usability in half.

Stagger Storm: 5 - If you take the most powerful status and spread it everywhere, you're going to have a good time. #OvervaluingStunDamage

Venom Veiler: 5 - This bomb makes an insanely good support bomb-- it makes any area (besides poison of course) immediately easier, it has no negative effects in party-play, it makes everything run smoother, it's an anti-healer bomb, it stacks with other statuses... I mean, the bomb is almost flawless in usability.

Voltaic Tempest: 4 - Shock-bouncing is strong but unlike Electron Vortex, Voltaic Tempest does not group enemies together. Regardless, this provides the absolute crowd control of Shivermist Buster as well as the damage potential of Ash of Agni, in one bomb. It may not be as good as either of those for their respective purposes, but shock-locking enemies is very effective and it still retains high damage. Its downfalls are that shock can be random (enemies take knockback if they're not actively being shocked at that moment), and its damage is elemental-based unlike fire, which has its own separate damage, making Voltaic Tempest almost useless against Beasts and Gremlins, although it still retains its Crowd Control effectiveness.

Heavy Deconstructor: 1 - Come on, at least Winmillion was unique. This is literally the worst tier 3 bomb in the game, and that's saying quite a lot when shard bombs exist.

Tue, 09/08/2015 - 00:01

Sir-Pandabear

Dark Retribution: 5
Dark Briar Barrage: 5
Nitronome: 5
Old RSS: 5
Venom Veiler: 5
Obsidian Crusher: 4
Electron Vortex: 4
Ash of Agni: 4
Voltaic Tempest: 4
Shivermist Buster: 4
Big Angry Bomb: 3
Shocking Salt Bomb: 3
Scintillating Sun Shards: 3
Deadly Crystal Bomb: 3
Heavy Deconstructor: 3
Graviton Vortex: 3
Stagger Storm: 3
Deadly Dark Matter Bomb: 2
Deadly Splinter Bomb: 2
Irontech Destroyer: 2
Irontech Bomb: 2
Deadly Shard Bomb: 1

Venom is a 5 because, for its purposes of blocking healing in an entire arena at once nothing can beat it. Crowd control and damage, as done by the other hazes can be done in a lot of ways, however.

Tue, 09/08/2015 - 01:12

Krakob

As much as I'd like to participate I realise I only have 3 damage oriented bombs, one being Heavy Decon so I don't think I can give a decent rating on all the damage bombs.

Tue, 09/08/2015 - 02:33

Mouzzie

Ash of Agni: 4
Big Angry Bomb: 2
Dark Briar Barrage: 5
Dark Retribution: 5
Deadly Crystal Bomb: 3
Deadly Dark Matter Bomb: 1
Deadly Shard Bomb: 2
Deadly Splinter Bomb: 1
Electron Vortex: 5
Graviton Vortex: 3
Irontech Destroyer: 3
Nitronome: 4
Obsidian Crusher: 4
Scintillating Sun Shards: 3
Shivermist Buster: 4
Shocking Salt Bomb: 2
Stagger Storm: 3
Venom Veiler: 4
Voltaic Tempest: 4
Heavy Deconstructor: 1

Screenshot

Tue, 09/08/2015 - 02:53

Enfeebler

Ash of Agni: 4
Big Angry Bomb: 2
Dark Briar Barrage: 5
Dark Retribution: 5
Deadly Crystal Bomb: 2
Deadly Dark Matter Bomb: 1
Deadly Shard Bomb: 1
Deadly Splinter Bomb: 1
Electron Vortex: 5
Graviton Vortex: 3
Irontech Destroyer: 2
Nitronome: 4
Obsidian Crusher: 4
Scintillating Sun Shards: 3
Shivermist Buster: 3
Shocking Salt Bomb: 2
Stagger Storm: 4
Venom Veiler: 5
Voltaic Tempest: 3
Heavy Deconstructor: 1

Validation

Mon, 09/21/2015 - 09:20

Fehzor

Changed my post to use the standard template-

Ash of Agni: 5
Big Angry Bomb: 4
Dark Briar Barrage: 5
Dark Retribution: 5
Deadly Crystal Bomb: 3
Deadly Dark Matter Bomb: 1
Deadly Shard Bomb: 4
Deadly Splinter Bomb: 2
Electron Vortex: 5
Graviton Vortex: 1
Irontech Destroyer: 5
Nitronome: 5
Obsidian Crusher: 5
Scintillating Sun Shards: 4
Shivermist Buster: 5
Shocking Salt Bomb: 4
Stagger Storm: 5
Venom Veiler: 5
Voltaic Tempest: 5
Heavy Deconstructor: 2

---Bombs of the past and celestial vortex, just for fun---

Radiant Sun Shards (before changes): 5 - was about as huge a get for bombers as dark retribution
Ionized Salt Bomb (before changes): 1 - charged in gran faust time
Big Angry Bomb (before changes): 1 - it actively hurt your party as much as possible
Irontech Destroyer (before changes): 2 - it could be used, but not to much effect

Celestial Vortex: 5 - It seriously feels like power creep to me. Strong fire + vortex makes it a deadlier version of ash of agni.

Tue, 09/08/2015 - 10:06

Krakob

Hold on there you rascals, I didn't list no Old RSS! NO FUN ALLOWED >:(

Thu, 09/10/2015 - 13:07

Hennils

My votes:

Ash of Agni: 4
Big Angry Bomb: 4
Dark Briar Barrage: 5
Dark Retribution: 4
Deadly Crystal Bomb: 3
Deadly Dark Matter Bomb: 2
Deadly Shard Bomb: 1
Deadly Splinter Bomb: 1
Electron Vortex: 5
Graviton Vortex: 3
Irontech Destroyer: 3
Nitronome: 5
Obsidian Crusher: 5
Scintillating Sun Shards: 2
Shivermist Buster: 3
Shocking Salt Bomb: 3
Stagger Storm: 5
Venom Veiler: 5
Voltaic Tempest: 3
Heavy Deconstructor: 1

Validation

Wed, 09/09/2015 - 05:43

Reto-Da-Liz

Ash of Agni: 3
Big Angry Bomb: 1
Dark Briar Barrage: 4
Dark Retribution: 3
Deadly Crystal Bomb: 1
Deadly Dark Matter Bomb: 1
Deadly Shard Bomb: 1
Deadly Splinter Bomb: 1
Electron Vortex: Over 9000 (5)
Graviton Vortex: 3
Irontech Destroyer: 1
Nitronome: 3
Obsidian Crusher: 4
Scintillating Sun Shards: 1
Shivermist Buster: 4
Shocking Salt Bomb: 2
Stagger Storm: 4
Venom Veiler: 5
Voltaic Tempest: 3
Heavy Deconstructor: 1

Wed, 09/09/2015 - 07:34

#10

Fehzor

So I noticed a few of you guys putting dark retribution at less than a 5. I'm not saying that you're objectively wrong or demanding that you change your post (after all, I did give the brandishes 2s, for the most part) but in what way is dark retribution not "more or less flawless and in most cases the strongest available for its purposes"? I'm genuinely curious- I've always had incredible success with dark retribution.

Wed, 09/09/2015 - 08:34

#11

Reto-Da-Liz

I would say it's a pretty decent bomb, but it has a couple drawbacks in my opinion.
It's great when facing that 1 big boss, but when it comes to hitting many different ones (like an army of slimes), I find that its utility drops.
Like all damaging bombs, it leaves you very vulnerable while charging -> dropping -> charging, and unlike some other bombs it lacks any form of cc or status, and its radius is very small. I find it to be way more effective and safe to EV -> Brandish charge than to chain DR and rely on it for my damage.

Wed, 09/09/2015 - 09:39

#12

Krakob

If I'm not mistaken DR also has some trouble handling mini jellies and shielded enemies. That's kind of a big deal considering that it's effective against slimes and gremlins. But maybe I'm completely wrong, I haven't used it in far too long.

@Fehzor
I noticed you changed your post and listed old BAB and Irontech. I can't remember, what were the changes made?

Wed, 09/09/2015 - 13:14

#13

Dibsville

"If I'm not mistaken DR also has some trouble handling mini jellies and shielded enemies. That's kind of a big deal considering that it's effective against slimes and gremlins. But maybe I'm completely wrong, I haven't used it in far too long."

Actually, Dark Retribution is one of the best ways to take out a shielded enemy; because the orbs damage is based on the center of the explosion, it allows shielded enemies to be hit as long as their open side is to the center of the bomb, which means they take just as many hits as any other enemy with just a simple bait -- in fact, it's probably the fastest and safest way to take out any shielded enemy, whether it's a Thwacker, a Mecha Knight, or something else, because these enemies are very easy to bait into getting hit by the bomb, and you can sit there and let the bomb do all the work.

As for the mini jellies, this is strictly in Royal Jelly Palace, and there's a lot of weapons that are extremely gimped against minis; Brandishes lose their charge, Caliburs lose their hits, damage bombs can be blocked (Shard Bombs completely negated), Magnus charges disappear, etc etc. Saying Dark Retribution is at fault for one enemy type that only appears in three depths is pretty silly considering that most other weapons have the same problem with the exact same enemy. It's not a fault on Dark Retribution's part, it's a fault on the way the enemy is made. But for that matter, at least Dark Retribution still explodes and continues spinning even with minis around, it can just only hit the minis once (twice for green minis). It can still kill them pretty effectively considering its explosion damage, it's just not tearing through them like it does to every other enemy.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 18:18

#14

Skepticraven

↓

Edited out my votes.

Wed, 09/09/2015 - 15:01

#15

Krakob

So you're actually saying you're giving shivermist a 5 due to its drawbacks?

I chose to not include your swords stuff because it didn't follow the guidelines even remotely and I thought you were mostly out to make a statement about how badly designed/balanced SK is, anyhow. I think we both knew that already.

Wed, 09/09/2015 - 15:57

#16

Skepticraven

↓

Players using shivermist incorrectly doesn't make it a bad at what it can do.

I truly feel that swords aren't all that good. I explained this in my post here. I figured as per the rules... I didn't need proof considering my damage analysis threads in the wiki subforum (which has since been edited out of the rules, I might add). Votes can and will be polarized because they are opinionated... does it make them wrong?

Wed, 09/09/2015 - 20:06

#17

Hennils

My part:

@DR discussion:
The part i dislike about the Dark Retribution is due to Gremlins being able to just run/dash through it.

@Graviton Vortex
Most seem to rate GV at 3, while Obsidian Crusher has mostly 4s. I also agree on Obsidian Crusher as a better weapon, but don't you think, you would've given Graviton a better rating, if the Obsi Crusher wouldn't be taken for comparison?

@Krakob
The inventory link is enough?

Thu, 09/10/2015 - 05:27

#18

Dibsville

Just want to explain this from my point of view

"but don't you think, you would've given Graviton a better rating, if the Obsi Crusher wouldn't be taken for comparison?"

Absolutely not. The reason Electron Vortex is a five (in my eyes) is because of its status; shock allows you to very easily control a crowd, allowing you to pummel them to death completely safely. The loss of shock already makes Graviton Vortex significantly worse since without the shock Graviton Vortex completely relies on heavy CTR/Damage from another weapon. Obsidian Crusher is much better because the Poison helps against healers so they can effectively kill the whole group you just bombed. It's like a Venom Veiler but you get a few hits off as well-- however Obsidian Crusher has that element of randomness on its explosion which is why it dropped in comparison to Venom Veiler for me. Back on to Graviton Vortex, even without the comparison to Obsidian Crusher, Graviton Vortex is a Shadow bomb and has to be compared with the likes of Dark Retribution, which tears through literally any enemy in the game very quickly, even Undead and Fiends, so much so that placing a Graviton Vortex and throwing a Sudaruska charge in the center is actually slower and more risky than just dropping a couple of Dark Retributions. Not only that, but the ranking system is very clear: a three " can hold its own, but is generally outshone by others." This is Graviton Vortex completely -- its usefulness as a vortex bomb is notable but the likes of Electron Vortex is superior, Dark Retribution makes it obsolete, and Obsidian Crusher is a direct upgrade. It is good, but it's completely overshadowed by other options, even not counting Obsidian Crusher, and yeah, there's more bombs I could have listed that outclass it, I was just giving some notable examples. Because it is so overshadowed, it does not perform to the best of its ability-- that honor goes to Electron Vortex as a support bomb, and Dark Retribution as a damage bomb, so I personally gave Graviton Vortex a three.

EDIT: spelling...

Thu, 09/10/2015 - 01:45

#19

Krakob

@Skepticraven
Yes, to state that CIV and Winmillion are about as potent as Acheron and WRH is just silly.

@Hennils
Sure! Same name, enough gear. It's all good.

Thu, 09/10/2015 - 04:03

#20

Sir-Pandabear

@Krakob

BAB and Irontech had tiny radii, on top of lacking stun.

Thu, 09/10/2015 - 07:14

#21

Fehzor

I'll comment on dark retribution later, for now I just want to say that weapons do not exist in a vacuum- if winmillion was the only weapon, we'd all see it as some glorious icon but this not the case and our basis for comparison makes us think it deserves a buff.

...And graviton vortex is garbage compared to its status variants due to how strong enhanced clumping (shock) and the ability to block healers + deal big crowd damage (poison + vortex) are. Using vortex weapons as a source of damage is comparable to using shiver mist buster for damage.

Thu, 09/10/2015 - 11:53

#22

Hennils

My part:

@Graviton Vortex
While deciding on a rating for a weapon, i thought about the weapon without comparison to others. Thanks to Dibsville for bringing up the pointing system again, which clearly states, that they are supposed to be judged based on what else is available too.

Thu, 09/10/2015 - 12:39

#23

Fangel

Here we go again

Ash of Agni: 4
Big Angry Bomb: 3
Dark Briar Barrage: 5
Dark Retribution: 5
Deadly Crystal Bomb: 2
Deadly Dark Matter Bomb: 1
Deadly Shard Bomb: 1
Deadly Splinter Bomb: 1
Electron Vortex: 4
Graviton Vortex: 2
Irontech Destroyer: 4
Nitronome: 5
Obsidian Crusher: 4
Scintillating Sun Shards: 3
Shivermist Buster: 5
Shocking Salt Bomb: 3
Stagger Storm: 4
Venom Veiler: 5
Voltaic Tempest: 4
Heavy Deconstructor: 1

Alrighty, I can only speak about some of the bombs, but I believe I have enough know-how to claim alright-ness with it.

Most mist bombs got high rankings simply because they are really good at doing exactly what's on the tin - spreading a status across a large area. However, some of them have competition, some don't. Example is that voltaic temptest has direct competition with the electron vortex in terms of spreading shock, but it gives up crowd control for a wider area of effect.

All shard bombs are pretty bad in my experience, but the ones that spread status have a niche still. Deadly crystal only gets a 2 (not a 1!) because it's the only elemental bomb that has a range slightly larger than a cutter swing.

I can't talk from experience with BAB or irontech destroyer, but personally movespeed is a very important bit to my playstyle so moving slower isn't really worth the stun chance. Nitronome is more fitting of my playstyle, and is really good at keeping things out constantly even with only the natural CTR. Heavy deconstructor is just outclassed by everything sadly, giving it a 1.

Thu, 09/10/2015 - 15:05

#24

Skepticraven

↓

@Krakob
"@Skepticraven
Yes, to state that CIV and Winmillion are about as potent as Acheron and WRH is just silly."

Except that's not what I'm saying. I'm genuinely saying that no swords really fit in any useful spot in my arsenal. A key deciding factor for why I ranked all swords as a 1 is that I do not use health trinkets. If I used swords, I'd likely have no where near my 800 SoLs.

Also, I'd pick CIV over WRH and just about any gun over either.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 11:42

#25

Fangel

Um.

Hey um, Skepticraven, you can have plenty of sparks of lives and still use swords and no health trinkets.

But from what I've seen in the past it sounds like your computer isn't all that wonderful so the safety of guns is beneficial.

However I do agree with Krakob on this one. You can't disregard the usefulness of swords because of a preferred playstyle - you're comparing each sword to each other, not guns, not bombs, not your computer's ability to run the game. It's one thing for me to rank DVS high because I use it efficiently - I find it genuinely useful. However, I also know that when I need to kill slimes/gremlins, the best go-to sword is the acheron, for constructs and undead the warmaster rocket hammer is devastating, and for beasts and fiends - well to be honest that's where my DVS shines most, even if a flourish does a good job as well. It just so happens that I can bring an acheron to any level and clear it easily, and bring a WRH to any non beast-gremlin level and clear it easily - can't say I can go to any level and clear it easily with a DVS, however I can do it without needing a revive, so that's saying something about the weapon in my experience.

To say that swords are all equally bad when many are objectively better than each other is silly.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:37

#26

Dibsville

While I had initially assumed we were rating the weapons solely based on the weapons in the same class (swords only compared to swords, bombs only to bombs, etc), Krakob does mention in one of his ratings that he is comparing Final Flourish to Dark Briar Barrage, when Krakob says "I'd rate Final Flourish 4 as well ... it's not really as good as Dark Briar Barrage for dealing with groups of wolvers ..."; so either we can compare each weapon to another class and there's some confusion, or Krakob didn't mean to put it that way and was simply giving an example. Hopefully it was the latter, but even so, you could just substitute "Barbarous Thorn Blade" in for "Dark Briar Barrage" in that description, since BTB has its notable AoE to take on groups of wolvers, while Final Flourish still lacks it regardless (just as a quick fix).

Regardless, it is indeed pretty silly to say that all swords are bad or useless. Even the most defensive bombers and gunners will find some noticeable use out of the defensive swords, most notably Gran Faust and Divine Avenger, which gives the player some knockback leverage when cornered. Even if you gave every other sword a 1 because there are better playstyles, there are still swords that fit almost any playstyle and should be rated as such. Yes, they can be outclassed, but they are also the next best thing. Graviton Vortex is not a 1 only because Obsidian Crusher exists. It still has its uses, it is just outclassed; this same notion goes for swords. Just because Final Flourish does less than Blitz Needle and does not have the AoE of Dark Briar Barrage does not make it any less effective against Trojans or any worse off against Greavers, it's just outclassed.

Besides, there are plenty of people with a very high amount of sparks that I'm sure also use swords too. At the very worst, swords hold a place for being viable in almost any area, so you should give every sword a 3 instead of a 1, that is, "The item can hold its own [people have shown they can], but is generally outshone by others [guns and bombs]", or at the absolute worst a 2, and from there lower the swords that are even worse than the other swords, such as Furious Flamberge, which would never realistically be more useful than a Final Flourish for PvE purposes despite having the same moveset and being a direct downgrade in Fire stratums.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 13:43

#27

Fehzor

@Skepticraven

How would you suggest balancing swords, and could you perhaps answer with a thread in the Arsenal or Suggestions subforum?

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 16:05

#28

Skepticraven

↓

Everyone is failing to realize that this vote thread is an opinion of multiple experienced players. Just because you all disagree with my opinion doesn't make it less of an opinion. I keep saying that swords have no particular use in my arsenal and my votes reflect that. The crux of my complaint is that my votes were ignored (along with someone else's, I might add) on the sole reason that other players disagreed with them.

@Fangel
But from what I've seen in the past it sounds like your computer isn't all that wonderful so the safety of guns is beneficial.

Only if I'm trying to record video is it an issue. I can get a fairly constant 25-30fps.

@Dibsville
While I had initially assumed we were rating the weapons solely based on the weapons in the same class (swords only compared to swords, bombs only to bombs, etc), Krakob does mention in one of his ratings that he is comparing Final Flourish to Dark Briar Barrage...

I'm beginning to notice that quite a few players missed that. My votes are in relation to all available weapons.

@Fehzor

I'm willing to allocate zero time for balancing suggestions to fix things until they fix some really blatant balance issues of which I've suggested over a year ago.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 16:24

#29

Fehzor

Just because you all disagree with my opinion doesn't make it less of an opinion.

I agree completely. The rules of the thread did state that you had to have swords, which seems like a good rule to me. If you haven't given swords a fair shake then perhaps you shouldn't be judging them. If you posted a picture showing that you have the swords (and preferably learned to use them and crafted them because you enjoyed learning that play style, even if it isn't optimal..) then there really wouldn't be a way to refute the all 1s comment.

As for the suggestion idea, it's for my curiosity (as I do value your views) and not so that the developers can fix it since they are statistically not very likely to do so. I really do agree with you more than I disagree with you on the swords being 1s thing. The swords I gave more than 2-3s were all used for utility and less so for main sources of damage because to be quite frank swords are mediocre compared to guns at safely dealing damage most of the time.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:12

#30

Skepticraven

↓

@Fehzor

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel as though I fall under the "have a reputation of being very knowledgeable here on the forums".
It may be of interest noting that my forge data collection project has a log of everything I've heated over almost 2 years now (including fully heating 30+ 5* items). Of course, I could be forging that data. If someone think's I actually am forging all the data that I've presented on these forums, I'd have a hard time convincing them any screencap I post wasn't photoshopped. Truthfully, combuster and acheron used to have a place in my arsenal... then the gunner update happened.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 17:43

#31

Krakob

To be blunt about it, because I'm tired both of this discussion and physically since it's late o' clock, I agree with Fangel and Dibsville and I'm not gonna bother holding any further conversation about this.

Your post was rejected because it added nothing, most of all.

You're very much entitled to think that swords are trash, nevertheless. Likewise, I'm entitled to thinking that this is nearly factually incorrect and I have no obligation to consider your opinion in the final product. Your votes would do nothing other than lower every score slightly and that just makes the 5 point scale slightly less utilised.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 19:36

#32

Dibsville

"Everyone is failing to realize that this vote thread is an opinion of multiple experienced players. Just because you all disagree with my opinion doesn't make it less of an opinion."

It is of my opinion as well that swords have no place in someone's arsenal-- really, swords are pretty weak when used by those who have practiced without them.

However, I'm also of the opinion that swords are efficient, and I myself am not as patient of a player as you clearly are. So, by that matter, when I rated the swords I rated them on a basis of "If I were to use swords, which ones would be the most useful". Yes, swords are very clearly useless in comparison to guns or bombs, but that doesn't mean that by comparison some swords aren't more or less useful than other swords. You mention taking CIV over WMRH-- this is actually a valid opinion as CIV has lower knockback on its charge than Leviathan, giving you extra hits as well as freeing up space, and its normal damage makes it good alongside your main damage dealing weapons (guns and bombs, hopefully). But with the exceptions of Blitz Needle, Grim Repeater, Dark Retribution, Dark Briar Barrage, the three Magnus lines, and maybe Alchemers, swords are simply faster than guns or bombs, and this efficiency is really what should be rated on, in my personal opinion. Take it how you will, but when Acheron can clear an Undead area faster and with less risk than Cold Iron Vanquisher, Arcana, Deadly Crystal Bomb, Dark Briar Barrage, Polaris or Wildfire can, there's clearly an unbalance between swords and they should be rated on that efficiency.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm posting this, the point of this post, or where I was going with it... maybe I'll think of some reasons by tomorrow. Perhaps I was trying to convince you of something? I'll try figuring it out.

Fri, 09/11/2015 - 21:06

#33

Fehzor

I'm almost certain you're forging data! But not in the illegal way! In the way that can only be forged using the forge-otten art of the forgery of the forge!

Link to Skeptic's forge data- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/93101

Skepticraven would therefore have, and this was made prior to your threads so I have no reason to doubt it-

Sudaruska
Rocket Hammer
Rigadoon
Acheron
Combuster
Voltedge
Fang of Vog
Cold Iron Vanquisher (4*?)
Dread Venom Striker

So it would appear that he does meet and even surpass the standards set out in the OP and does have a say in what should occur, even though I had to prove this for him. It would also stand to reason that he has used said swords in the past, as his thread involves him at least heating them. There is absolutely no real reason for you to exclude the all swords are trash vote, since he does have an informed opinion. Saying that it does nothing but lower the overall score is simply wrong when there are plenty of guns and bombs that could be rated as nicer than guns. Dibsville even goes so far as to agree with Skeptic's viewpoint, or at least sympathize with it. Haha. Sympathize has a 'z' in it. I like that letter.

And on a completely unrelated topic, I'm jelly of Skepticraven's cocoa/humbug hazer. Humbug was one of my favorite reskins but I didn't want to give up my UV'd venom to craft it.

And on a really really unrelated topic- I found something a bit more.......... intriguing. In that data thread than what Skepticraven and Cheshireccat crafted. But hey, DEER TEETH, FOR YOU KID!

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 04:19

#34

Skepticraven

↓

@Dibsville
"Take it how you will, but when Acheron can clear an Undead area faster and with less risk than Cold Iron Vanquisher, Arcana, Deadly Crystal Bomb, Dark Briar Barrage, Polaris or Wildfire can, there's clearly an unbalance between swords and they should be rated on that efficiency."

With the exception of DBB (my primary piercing DPS multi-target piercing weapon), the rest of those weapons would get a 1 from me.

"But with the exceptions of Blitz Needle, Grim Repeater, Dark Retribution, Dark Briar Barrage, the three Magnus lines, and maybe Alchemers, swords are simply faster than guns or bombs,"

I think someone knows which weapons I use most frequently for highest DPS. In fact, utility is often left to magnus lines as well with the extremely high interrupt potential on normal shots.

@Fehzor

First, I'll note that you should be more careful when constructing the list - as Acheron and Combuster were clearly labeled as Cheshireccat heating them. However, my steam screenshots do include my wielding those two weapons in the past (I had them fully heated long before the sprite update).

"Cold Iron Vanquisher (4*?)"

Yes, you'll notice that I take my own advice that I feed out on the forums. There are about 10 weapons I haven't upgraded to 5* due to not having the radiants to heat it past lvl 8. CIV is one of them that hasn't been upgraded yet. Cocoa is my favorite reskin so far, as when you bug the charge animation with a gun-charge stance, you can offer a sip to other players. Similarly, with the Humbug Hazer, you offer a green present.

I also thought about getting 7 FoVs and using them alongside some odd 5* gear such as my 3 fully heated sacred gunner sets for validation... but decided a joke wouldn't be worth the crown loss.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 07:20

#35

Fehzor

Actually combuster and acheron were from your post, where you claimed to use them. I don't think that you're untrustworthy, just that you like guns.

I also noticed that you gave the deadly crystal bomb a 1. Good for you, coming around like that. It's always an admirable thing to do.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 08:48

#36

Falminar

@Skeptic

The link brings me to an image of you holding up 2 Tortodrone guns, not the Scalding Hot Cocoa bugged with a gun charge stance.

Or was that intentional, just to show that charge stances can be bugged?

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 08:55

#37

Dibsville

@Skepticraven

I'm curious, you say "With the exception of DBB (my primary piercing DPS multi-target piercing weapon), the rest of those weapons would get a 1 from me", which is perfectly reasonable, but I'd like to ask about why you'd give Arcana and Wildfire a 1 (the rest I can see). While Arcana is so basic that it's not necessarily good in any situation, it has no major drawbacks and it even excels as a basic damage gun because of its nice knockback effect. And as for Wildfire, it has many niche areas such as Dreams and Nightmares, Ghosts in the Machine, Legion of Almire, both Firestorm Citadels (if you dislike Polaris's Shock effect but still want knockback for certain areas), and even the Tortodrone fight to a smaller extent-- surely Wildfire deserves at least a 2 because while it can be outclassed, it does fill niche areas, which is the very description of a 2. I'd like to know your thoughts on these two guns as I'm legitimately curious about how they can both be any less than a 2?

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 09:47

#38

Skepticraven

↓

@Vanaduke-Destroyer
It's a torto shield and gun with the bomb charge animation. No mistake, I never took a screenshot of the cocoa offering.

@Dibsville
Perhaps I'll find time to type out my reasoning during the gun voting thread as to not derail this thread any more.

Sat, 09/12/2015 - 11:50

#39

Fangel

Right...

Forgot that you were saying that during mostly recording validation things, my bad.

But yeah, still, even if you are comparing a sword to a gun or a bomb, there's still going to be one of each that does what it does really well. Split damage swords will help you even if the enemy resists the damage type (D28 max damage acheron does 1 less damage than a D28 max damage magma driver). Venom veiler is going to be one of the best weapons for spreading poison, despite the obsidian edge spreading concentrated and a higher power poison. It's the reason you see more venom veiler than obsidian edges in arenas.

Similarly, combuster might be more popular for spreading fire than ash of agni because it does high damage and fire is a damage status, not a support one.

I suppose what I'm saying is if you genuinely find a certain weapon type useless in your hands, then you're doin' it wrong. Weapons are molded to be useful in some scenarios, and not as much in others. I don't want to spend 10 minutes running through the first level of sewer stach while also collecting crowns - so acheron + any gun really will get me through there quickly. If I went switch-shooting or charge spamming guns, the lichens would combine far too frequently due to not being knocked back from each other.

Now, I know you know all this, and yes it is up to preference, but disregarding a certain weapon type during voting because you don't use it can be met with your votes being disregarded because you didn't vote within the parameters of the poll.

Sun, 09/13/2015 - 05:15

#40

Krakob

We only got 8 submissions for this thread, please do ask your friends to chip in if you know any who are eligible.

Mon, 09/14/2015 - 05:51

#41

Smalltownguy

Just watching the discussion.

If I had 7 5* bombs, I would add my vote.

Mon, 09/14/2015 - 23:59

#42

Flowchart

got around to this

Ash of Agni: 3
Big Angry Bomb: 2
Dark Briar Barrage: 5
Dark Retribution: 4
Deadly Crystal Bomb: 2
Deadly Dark Matter Bomb: 2
Deadly Shard Bomb: 1
Deadly Splinter Bomb: 2
Electron Vortex: 5
Graviton Vortex: 3
Irontech Destroyer: 2
Nitronome: 3
Obsidian Crusher: 3
Scintillating Sun Shards: 2
Shivermist Buster: 4
Shocking Salt Bomb: 2
Stagger Storm: 3
Venom Veiler: 4
Voltaic Tempest: 3
Heavy Deconstructor: 2

only put ratings that might need an explanation:
Ash of Agni - has its uses but the fire damage isn't all that much.
Dark Retribution - go-to damage bomb but not great on all enemies and lags older PCs
Nitronome - some might wonder why I rate it this low and it's not bad but the flash is annoying and knockback isn't always what you want
Stagger Storm - would rank higher if it lasted longer.
Graviton Vortex / Obsidian Crusher - don't like their knockback and I'd rather use venom veiler if I wanted poison.. or electron vortex + obsidian edge.

image

Fri, 09/18/2015 - 11:18

#43

Krakob

If anyone is planning to vote, make sure to have done so by sunday!

In other news, let's bring up the discussion of the requirements for voting on guns, given that the gunner update is still "new" and a lot of players may not have any experience with the gunner update guns despite being qualified for voting by having a 3rd of all 5* guns.

I think it would be fair to put a requirement of a third of all guns but also at least a third of all gunner update guns, including Magnuses and Catalyzers which were drastically changed by said update.

Fri, 09/18/2015 - 12:23

#44

Fangel

Hmm

I'd say have at least one gun of all specialized damage types and have 3 different gun styles.

Gun styles is just in place so you don't just have blitz + pulsar. You'd need to have a mix of alchemer, autogun, pulsar, blaster, magnus, tortofist, catalyzer, antigua, etc.

Looks like three's gonna be the magic number here.

Fri, 09/18/2015 - 12:36

#45

Bopp

response

Bombs: I'm still deciding on my bomb vote, and whether to register a bomb vote. It's not clear that I'm qualified to comment on some bombs (e.g. Big Angry Bomb). On the other hand, probably that's not stopping a lot of other voters. I shouldn't take it so seriously.

Handguns: I vote against requiring "a third of all gunner update guns". Except for changes to magnuses and catalyzers, the gunner update introduced no new gun styles at all. If I own a Polaris and I understand the difference between shock and fire well, then I understand Wildfire even without owning it. The same goes for all of the new blasters, etc.

Fri, 09/18/2015 - 13:26

#46

Dibsville

I feel like owning a Fire gun and a Shock gun should be a starting requirement-- Bopp mentions "If I own a Polaris and I understand the difference between shock and fire well, then I understand Wildfire even without owning it", and I agree with this for the most part but only to the extent that the person truly understands the differences between Fire and Shock as it affects guns. We can argue all day about how Combuster > Voltedge > Glacius no matter where you go, but when it comes to guns, each Driver and the four Pulsars fit completely different niches, especially with how the guns work. So for that matter, I feel like owning at least a Fire and Shock gun should be an absolute minimum requirement. Freeze doesn't really need to be required because it's easy to make assumptions on Permafroster and Hail Driver without owning them, although from what I've seen people make bad assumptions on Winter Grave (and I'll go so far as to say they are completely wrong and I'll stand by my opinion on that), so maybe at least owning the 3* Tundrus should also be a requirement? Poison isn't really a big deal, and not to put words in other peoples mouth, but we've all mostly been down this path before: Plague is generally considered worse than Blitz, Carbine is generally considered better than Sentenza, and Biohazard is a Catalyzer, so.... --- Stun is limited to Callahan and Iron Slug and I dare say most people understand these two guns even without owning them.

But anyway, along with the standard requirements, owning both a Shock gun and a Fire gun should also be a requirement as the differences between statuses are much more dramatic than they are with swords and I'd hate to see someone who happens to have seven guns overrate or underrate the status guns to what that person truly believes just because they're making blind assumptions. Yes, it's an opinion thread but going so far as to say Shock Driver or Hail Driver is bad because Nova or Magma exist is just uneducated (yeah, I'm calling people out).

Fri, 09/18/2015 - 13:39

#47

Bopp

response

I'm not sure who you're calling out, but multiple parts of your post suggest that it could be me, so let me say: I've been recommending Storm Driver to players for a long time.

Also, you seem to be saying that people can guess at what freeze does on guns, but they cannot guess at what shock or fire does on guns. I don't understand why freeze would be different. Please explain more.

Fri, 09/18/2015 - 14:32

#48

Fangel

Hm.

The people posting in these threads, for the most part, are us forumers... Sooo, not super sure there about us not knowing our stuff (as we're rather constantly sharing info or referring to the wiki).

I do agree that statuses can make or break guns (You use wildfire more offensively than a polaris or a permafroster as the knockback is reliable, whereas you make a slow-moving wall with the shock/freeze ones) but I don't think players should be forced to have different statuses to vote. If they are voting on weapons in the first place they'll need to have an understanding of them.

Reason people often say freeze on guns = no good is because you do a lot more of shooting than you do of trying to make a status happen. Bombs you either want damage, knockback, or a status. Swords you pretty much want damage or a status - and the freeze swords are pretty much set on where their statuses happen.
Hail driver and permafroster suffer from "shoot now don't question it" attack styles, making freeze largely irrelevant (but if you were setting up a charge attack it does work nicely). With the winter's grave however, you're firing single shots, which makes freeze much more reliable and you're less likely to break your own freeze.

Fri, 09/18/2015 - 15:11

#49

Dibsville

@Bopp
Sorry if it seemed like I was calling you out, I definitely wasn't, and didn't mean anything by it. I guess I was mostly referring to those roamers and lurkers? Honestly I don't know what I'm even saying these days anyway.

When you asked about the statuses, I counted Freeze out moreso because if you have Polaris or Storm Driver, you should honestly already understand Permafroster and Hail Driver (the former two being exceptionally more popular-- if you have seven guns, chances are you probably have one of these); Winter Grave is an obvious glaring exception to this which is why I mentioned at least owning the 3* because making completely incorrect assumptions is not getting us anywhere (I can't tell you how many people have tried explaining how they dislike WG because the freeze means enemies don't get hit by the charge or that it freezes enemies in your face, which are both completely untrue, I think? I'm just salty about these kinds of people I guess). But when it comes to Fire vs Shock, I see a lot of people immediately go on the assumption that Fire is already better, which is really only true for swords (IMO), because unlike swords, different statuses actually mean something on guns. Understanding that difference is important, and if you understand Shock on guns then you can assume Freeze is relatively the same thing (from my experience, it is, just there's some places where I'd prefer one or the other, as an example I'd prefer Storm Driver in a Zombie area, but I'd prefer Hail Driver in a Kat area, but the differences are mostly negligible). Just giving my opinion on requirements, perhaps I'm getting too enthralled by all this.

I also apparently have a symptom where I'm horrible at explaining what's going through my head when I post stuff.

Fri, 09/18/2015 - 16:12

#50

Midnight-Violet

Looking for someone to give their input on the Celestial Vortex, since it released just not long ago.

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Community weapon ratings - Bombs (voting finished)